Why do Jedi and Sith fight each other with lightsabers?

[An Enemy Spy]

And don't answer because it looks cool in a movie. I know that's why George Lucas included lightsabers in the movies, but I just want to know if there's a valid in-universe explanation for why people who can fling each other around and shoot lightning and do all sorts of other amazing and powerful things need to fight each other by swinging swords around.

[Kantaki]

I think in the (old) EU they explained it with the Jedi/Sith learning to create a „forceshield” that prevents or at least weakens this kind of attack as one of the first things during their training.

And why lightsabers? Well, those things cut through (almost) everything and considering everyone uses energy-weapons it gives them a good defense. Another reason might be that igniting a lightsaber is a good way to warn/intimidate someone. Well, and it isn't a obvious weapon when inactive. That is something both peacekeepers and assassins would value.

[Cikomyr]

Until the Prequels, you could make a case that only Jedi Knights used Lightsabers. It was their weapons, their symbols. Darth Vader uaed one because he used to be Jedi, and the Emperor seemed to dismiss it as some "Jedi toy".

But no. Because George Lucas apparently has no sense of.sublety and knew the only thing people would love his movies would be silly lightstick fights.

[An Enemy Spy]

Until the Prequels, you could make a case that only Jedi Knights used Lightsabers. It was their weapons, their symbols. Darth Vader uaed one because he used to be Jedi, and the Emperor seemed to dismiss it as some "Jedi toy".

But no. Because George Lucas apparently has no sense of.sublety and knew the only thing people would love his movies would be silly lightstick fights.

What, you think Star Wars would be better without lightsaber fights?

[Cikomyr]

What, you think Star Wars would be better without lightsaber fights?

I think Star Wars is better when Lightsaber fights are meaningful, rather than cheap exploitation eye-candy

[Ebon_Drake]

Until the Prequels, you could make a case that only Jedi Knights used Lightsabers. It was their weapons, their symbols. Darth Vader uaed one because he used to be Jedi, and the Emperor seemed to dismiss it as some "Jedi toy".

But no. Because George Lucas apparently has no sense of.sublety and knew the only thing people would love his movies would be silly lightstick fights.


My reading on that was that they were the weapons of Knights, as opposed to Masters. I liked the implication that Yoda and the Emperor didn't use lightsabers because their mastery of the Force was so strong that they didn't need to. Plus I figured it would really stupid for a tiny guy like Yoda and an old man like the Emperor to be running around sword-fighting, which was something the prequels proved.

That said, the prequels did at least give a few different answers to the question: lightsabers could be used to defend against some force powers, as IIRC Windu and Kenobi both blocked Force Lightning using them. Sabers could also be used to settle a fight when the combatants were equal with force powers, which was why Yoda and Dooku ended up duelling with them. Dooku also took Obi-Wan out of the fight in ROTS by just straight-up choking and throwing him around, so sometimes simply overpowering your opponent with the Force was something that Jedi/Sith could do.

[Devonix]

What, you think Star Wars would be better without lightsaber fights?

We'll see if Rogue One does well. No Lightsabers in that movie.

[Clertar]

What, you think Star Wars would be better without lightsaber fights?

The prequel trilogy would be a lot better is each movie wasn't just a 2-hour long excuse for lightsaber fights.

Just like good ronin movies don't need a katana fight to be good movies, but you can get bad movies with plenty of katanas.

[TheThan]

They do it to see which side has the bigger... lightsaber... ahem. if you know what I mean.

[HandofShadows]

I remember some early concept art for Star Wars and in that version EVERYONE had lightsabers. Han did, the Storm Troopers did. Everyone fought with them.

[An Enemy Spy]

Here's a good question: Are lightsabers in any way intrinsically tied to the Force? We've seen them block Force Lightning attacks and nobody but Jedi seem to make use of them(the only exeptions being General Grievous and Finn, both of whom got theirs from Jedi instead of having them originally).

[Bulldog Psion]

We'll see if Rogue One does well. No Lightsabers in that movie.

Unless there's a cameo by Darth Vader.

[BlueHerring]

Here's a good question: Are lightsabers in any way intrinsically tied to the Force? We've seen them block Force Lightning attacks and nobody but Jedi seem to make use of them(the only exeptions being General Grievous and Finn, both of whom got theirs from Jedi instead of having them originally).The big draw for Jedi using them is the minor precognition that lets them deflect blaster bolts. There's nothing intrinsically Force-relevant about actually using a lightsaber to hack and slash, but using it to deflect a blaster bolt requires it.

As for why only Jedi use them, a blaster rifle and a sidearm has far more utility for any normal soldier (Considering that, relatively considered, Jedi are rare. Most enemies faced by a conventional soldier/smuggler/pirate aren't going to be carrying lightsabers). Plus, tradition of thousands of years of only Jedi/Sith using them makes it a rarity for any non-Force-sensitive to have them. They're more like trophies for anyone that can actually get their hands on them.

[Killer Angel]

They do it to see which side has the bigger... lightsaber... ahem. if you know what I mean.

I think I know. I't a sort of citation from Spaceballs, right? :smalltongue:

[Cikomyr]

I remember some early concept art for Star Wars and in that version EVERYONE had lightsabers. Han did, the Storm Troopers did. Everyone fought with them.

That is merely George Lucas still drawing on the initial Star Wars inspiration that came from Flash Gordon.

But trimming down on the Laser Swords made them more.. Special


Here's a good question: Are lightsabers in any way intrinsically tied to the Force? We've seen them block Force Lightning attacks and nobody but Jedi seem to make use of them(the only exeptions being General Grievous and Finn, both of whom got theirs from Jedi instead of having them originally).

I had a friend insisting that only Force User could use a lightsaber. But Han Solo's use of it in Empire shot down.

But just because you can turn a light saber on doesn't mean its of any use to you when facing guns and repeating weaponry.

The magic powers is what allows you to be effective. I also think it also acts as a power limiter for Jedi. I mean.. A Jedi totally in synch with the Force, who call dual-wield pistols blindfolded and still land headshots a La Firefly River is way scarier than a guy with a sword

[Jayngfet]

Here's a good question: Are lightsabers in any way intrinsically tied to the Force? We've seen them block Force Lightning attacks and nobody but Jedi seem to make use of them(the only exeptions being General Grievous and Finn, both of whom got theirs from Jedi instead of having them originally).

Lightsabers use force attuned crystals. Each crystal is supposed to be tied to their Jedi and affect their connection to the force. Being able to find the crystal that's meant to be "yours" is one of the key steps to being a jedi knight.

Everything else about the lightsaber is actually just common parts. In both old and new EU the rest of the thing can be made from whatever people have lying around. In some extreme cases Erza in rebels built his saber out of whatever was lying around the Ghost at the time, and Jaden Korr was able to build his saber out of stuff lying around an ordinary workshop. So in extreme situations a lightsaber can be made in a pinch. Even the crystal may or may not be replaceable with some other stuff. In the old EU synthetic ones were reasonably common, but in the new canon synthetic crystals are meant to be unstable and explosive.

[Pronounceable]

And don't answer because it looks cool in a movie.
But there's no other answer. All the other stuff is just excuses.

Only jedi knights should've had them. And they should've been weapons meant only for ritualistic/traditional duels and ceremonies, used only when there's some religious reason to not just shoot dudes like a sane person would. Obi Wan should've been shooting dudes like no tomorrow, only whipping out the glowstick when there's something to cut through and for special religious events (facing various darths). Without that weight of tradition and rarity and uniqueness and whatevs imposed by narrative and worldbuilding, laser swords are just dumb toys in the face of automatic weaponry and explosives. Dumb toys that somehow work, making the whole thing a farce.

[TheThan]

I think I know. I't a sort of citation from Spaceballs, right? :smalltongue:

pretty much that's it.

it was actually canon for a while too. IIRC sith took up the lightsaber to prove to the Jedi they were just as skilled as the Jedi are.
So yeah it basically became a pissing contest between the two factions.

[The_Snark]

And don't answer because it looks cool in a movie. I know that's why George Lucas included lightsabers in the movies, but I just want to know if there's a valid in-universe explanation for why people who can fling each other around and shoot lightning and do all sorts of other amazing and powerful things need to fight each other by swinging swords around.

It's not in-universe, but my hypothesis is that they originally couldn't do those things. In the original Star Wars the Force never does anything tangible: it affects perception and the mind. Luke uses it to deflect blaster bolts while blind and target his final shot at the Death Star, Obi-Wan senses the destruction of Alderaan and does the classic mind trick. Using the Force is more of a flow state/psychic sensitivity thing than anything else.

Telekinesis first shows up in Empire Strikes Back; it is used in combat once but in general it seems to require concentration and won't always be practical. Lightning appears in Return of the Jedi, but only for the Emperor, who did rely on that instead of swinging a sword. And then the prequels and EU material kept building on what the Force could do, making lightsabers seem more and more like a relic.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Telekinesis first shows up in Empire Strikes Back; it is used in combat once but in general it seems to require concentration and won't always be practical.

If I recall correctly, Vader uses TK to choke one of his generals in the original film, until Tarkin tells him to quit. It isn't a big use of TK, but it is there.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, why do Jedi use lightsabres in the first place, and why doesn't anyone else? Because they can, and it is ideally suited to their needs.

A Jedi is not about using lethal force. A Jedi was, originally, a cop. They aren't supposed to be optimized for combat, because that's only a very small part of what a Jedi is. Think old kung fu master. They can use all kinds of crazy weapons, yet they rarely actually do because they are not an aggressive group. Neither is the Jedi. Aggression leads to the Dark Side as you let your emotions get the better of you. So they needed a weapon which would be effective and had few natural counters, but also one that could be used for something other than aggression and combat.

Enter the Lightsabre. It's a fairly classic piece of tech, even by the time the Jedi start forming their Order. Hardly anyone uses it for several reasons. First, it takes years of training to master, otherwise you accidentally cut your limbs off trying to use it. Remember: plasma bottle on a stick. It'll go through you as easily as anything else. Second, it is a melee weapon. As anyone will tell you, don't bring a knife to a gun fight. A ranged weapon will generally be more lethal because you get more shots before your opponent can close. Shoot first, shoot last. Poor sucker. Third, it was not a very concealable weapon. The energy pack in a Lightsabre was every bit as strong as one found in a heavy blaster rifle, so despite the small size, it was very doubtful that you could sneak that past any kind of scanner. So it had no use as a 'holdout' weapon to encourage anyone to use it despite the drawbacks.

Now enter the Jedi and their precognitive-like reflexes. It offsets the disadvantages of the weapon neatly. They do years of training, starting with a stun-stick, and work their way up. Their reflexes and precognition permit them to do things with it that almost no one else can do. Grevious could because he had literally inhuman cybernetic reflexes, so his were a match for any Jedi, and he also trained in how to use it for years. But he was the exception, rather than the rule. Which is why he was able to kill so many Jedi: he took it to their level, and quite a bit beyond most Jedi's level. They got overconfident, and that is a death sentence at that level of competency. The fact that it is a melee weapon is a good thing for the Jedi, because they really aren't about killing people, they are about protecting people. And with their reflexes, they can protect people behind them from those ranged weapons, and even reflect them back to their opponents. Why bother bringing a ranged weapon when you can use your opponent's against him?

And the advantage the Lightsabre has over, say, a blaster is that it is nearly impossible to counter unless you have one yourself (and are on a similar level of training) or one of a very few pieces of specialized gear (such as the electroblade seen in The Force Awakens). If you don't have something that can parry a plasma bottle on a stick, you're pretty much dead when the Jedi close with you. And there's not much that CAN keep a Jedi from closing with you if he really wants to. Also of note that the electroblade wielding storm trooper wasn't fighting an actual Jedi with years of training, he was fighting someone else with storm trooper training. Which is significant, which is why he COULD wield it and not cut his own arm off, and I'm glad they displayed just how lethal storm troopers could actually be in that movie, but you're not dealing with the heightened reflexes and precognitive awareness a Jedi has. It might be a problem for the average Jedi, but not an insurmountable one. The key tactic was to have the guy able to square off against the Jedi tie him up while everyone else gets into overlapping fields of fire and flood his ability to parry everything.

That is why Jedi use Lightsabres. It is not just a Knight's weapon, although Masters did tend to rely on their use of the Force rather than their sabre because once you hit that level, you can simply end a fight using the Force. But they use it because of its utility as much as everyone else's inability to effectively counter it. Unless you have Cordite (explosive) bullets which ignite and detonate when it hits the plasma bottle on a stick, or you have something that can parry a sabre without being cut in half, there's jack all you can do. This is why Bobba Fett specialized in sniper shots and explosive weapons, where sabres were at their weakest at defending against. And why he had a jet pack and used it, to counter the Jedi's mobility advantage and to KEEP the Jedi away from him.

Because the Jedi were really the only group of people who could effectively use Lightsabres, they became the symbol of the Jedi Order. Much like Katanas represented the Samurai Caste and Bushido.

And because it looked really cool on screen, of course.

[Brother Oni]

Here's a good question: Are lightsabers in any way intrinsically tied to the Force? We've seen them block Force Lightning attacks and nobody but Jedi seem to make use of them(the only exeptions being General Grievous and Finn, both of whom got theirs from Jedi instead of having them originally).

As mentioned by Jayngfet, in the Knight of the Old Republic games, the Force crystals used to focus lightsabers required Force attunement to tune and manipulate properly.



And the advantage the Lightsabre has over, say, a blaster is that it is nearly impossible to counter unless you have one yourself (and are on a similar level of training) or one of a very few pieces of specialized gear (such as the electroblade seen in The Force Awakens).

Again from KotOR, I seem to remember cortosis-weave weapons and armour were fairly commonly issued equipment for troops when Jedi/Sith were expected and they were either resistant to light sabres or disrupted and shorted out the beam. I would expect they stopped issuing them by the time of the Empire (and especially after Order 66), but military logistics have significant inertia so I'd expect a couple warehouses in a forgotten base on some backwater world that would be stuffed to the gills with such kit.

[The_Snark]

If I recall correctly, Vader uses TK to choke one of his generals in the original film, until Tarkin tells him to quit. It isn't a big use of TK, but it is there.

Ah, you're quite right - don't know how I forgot that.

In any case, the argument that the Jedi use mundane weapons because using the cosmic harmony of the universe to shove people around is kind of dark side-y always made a reasonable amount of sense to me. The Jedi are a religious order, the Force isn't just a tool to them. It may be a Watsonian rationale invented after the Doylian reason (best summed up as "space knights with laser swords!") but it's consistent.

[Emperordaniel]

As mentioned by Jayngfet, in the Knight of the Old Republic games, the Force crystals used to focus lightsabers required Force attunement to tune and manipulate properly.

Wasn't just in KotOR. The Clone Wars (which is still canon) had an entire arc in its fifth season dedicated to showing the process young Jedi go through to attain their kyber crystals and build their lightsabers.

The arc also featured a KotOR/SWtoR-era starship captained by a SWtoR-era droid voiced by David Tennant (who won an Emmy for the role), which I also thought was pretty cool.

[Peelee]

Again from KotOR, I seem to remember cortosis-weave weapons and armour were fairly commonly issued equipment for troops when Jedi/Sith were expected and they were either resistant to light sabres or disrupted and shorted out the beam. I would expect they stopped issuing them by the time of the Empire (and especially after Order 66), but military logistics have significant inertia so I'd expect a couple warehouses in a forgotten base on some backwater world that would be stuffed to the gills with such kit.

Freaking cortosis.
It just makes no damned sense that a material thay can block/shut down lightsabers and also absorb/negate blasters, and is also able to be woven into any handheld bladed weapon or armor, shoukd not be used on a massive scale. Even with the purge of the Jedi, cortosis was expanded to have its incredibly tough properties, and would have improved stormtrooper armor.

I can understand beefing it up a bit for game reasons ("here's why your lightsaber isn't bisecting every enemy you come across, kids!"), but by the Darth Bane books, it was simply stupid to not have cortosis in everything, as long as you had the credits.

I just miss when it was first introduced with the "so weak it flakes off in your hand, it's not much good for anything, except its largely obscure lightsaber-shutting-down ability" instant reasoning as to why we had never seen it before, or why it would be a rare thing to see again. It was implemented well, and then beefed up so much it became silly to not have it be the backbone of the universe.

/endoldmanrant.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Again from KotOR, I seem to remember cortosis-weave weapons and armour were fairly commonly issued equipment for troops when Jedi/Sith were expected and they were either resistant to light sabres or disrupted and shorted out the beam. I would expect they stopped issuing them by the time of the Empire (and especially after Order 66), but military logistics have significant inertia so I'd expect a couple warehouses in a forgotten base on some backwater world that would be stuffed to the gills with such kit.

No, I know what you are talking about, but it wasn't Cortosis, and it wasn't common by any means, nor was it in the least bit standard issue. Cortosis was the explosive that they used against the jedi using actual solid-propellant guns rather than energy weapons which would blow up in the lightsabre and destabilize it at the least, plus an explosion to the face made the Jedi pretty damn disoriented so follow-ups would riddle him with bullet holes. This was an assassin's toy, not general issue for the military, who all used blasters for logistical issues. What you are talking about didn't really show up until the Usen Vong made their appearance in an attempt to find something which could at least slow a jedi down one-on-one instead of needing the swarm and squad tactics the storm troopers used.

Actually, the storm troopers are something modern military would find very familiar. Instead of using a single individual, the entire squad would get into it. The guy with the Repeater Blaster would lay down suppression fire while the rest would flank and lay down overlapping fields of fire. Basic WW II era tactics. And they worked, just not very well since the guy with the repeater had shots coming back at him, so he'd best have some kind of shielding. That's really where the idea for the Droidekats (the rolling ones with the build in force fields) came in. They were never designed to attack Jedi one-on-one, they were designed as weapons of area-suppression while everyone else flanked and cross-fired the damn Jedi. They were really damn scary, which is the only single flaw I saw in the original trilogy. It's just that the heroes were so damn badass they made even the elite storm troops look like idiots by comparison.

[Peelee]

No, I know what you are talking about, but it wasn't Cortosis, and it wasn't common by any means, nor was it in the least bit standard issue. Cortosis was the explosive that they used against the jedi using actual solid-propellant guns rather than energy weapons which would blow up in the lightsabre and destabilize it at the least, plus an explosion to the face made the Jedi pretty damn disoriented so follow-ups would riddle him with bullet holes. This was an assassin's toy, not general issue for the military, who all used blasters for logistical issues. What you are talking about didn't really show up until the Usen Vong made their appearance in an attempt to find something which could at least slow a jedi down one-on-one instead of needing the swarm and squad tactics the storm troopers used.

Wait, what?

In what book/comic were cortosis grenades used? Because what he described WAS cortosis. Quick and dirty breakdown of cortosis: introduced in Vision of the Future as physically weak, but shuts down lightsabers. Expanded in KOTOR, with vibroblades and armor that had cortosis weaves. This version of cortosis could block lightsabers. Expanded again in the Darth Bane novels, in which it became an incredibly hard, dense substance that was also useful in absorbing blaster fire.

The Yuuzhan Vong did not have any form of cortosis, but had living crab armor and amphistaffs (thanks, TheThan!), both of which repelled lightsabers effectively, but were absolutely not a similar material, as they were wholly separate animals cultured by the incredibly advanced bioengineering that defined the Vong.

[TheThan]

Wait, what?

In what book/comic were cortosis grenades used? Because what he described WAS cortosis. Quick and dirty breakdown of cortosis: introduced in Vision of the Future as physically weak, but shuts down lightsabers. Expanded in KOTOR, with vibroblades and armor that had cortosis weaves. This version of cortosis could block lightsabers. Expanded again in the Darth Bane novels, in which it became an incredibly hard, dense substance that was also useful in absorbing blaster fire.

There was another material called... Phrrrik I believe that also had lightsaber resistant properties... hold on let me go check...

ok it's called Phrik and it's supposed to be indestructible. i think people are mixing the two together or somewhere along the way they got rolled into the same substance.





The Yuuzhan Ving did not have any form of cortosis, but had living crab armor and snakestaves (wasn't a big fan of the series, i can't remember the actual names), both of which repelled lightsabers effectively, but were absolutely not a similar material, as they were wholly separate animals cultured by the incredibly advanced bioengineering that defined the Vong.

Even then that armor and the amphstaffs (sp?) were not immune to the blow of a lightsaber (ok that makes the 14 year old in me giggle); but they were resistant to it. A powerful enough swing would cleave right through Yuzzhan Vong crab armor. But it could resist a typical hit from a lightsaber. I suppose multiple hits would take it's toll on the armor and the amphstaffs and they'd eventually fail.

The point is that they gave the melee focused Yuuzhan Vong soldier the ability to stand and fight with the Jedi in a mostly fair fight.

[Peelee]

There was another material called... Phrrrik i believe

The more Rs it has, the more effective it works?:smallbiggrin:

[TheThan]

The more Rs it has, the more effective it works?:smallbiggrin:

Naw. thats just what you yell out when you hit it with your lightsaber and find it doesn't cut through the stuff.

[warty goblin]

Because they're civilized, obviously.

[Peelee]

Naw. thats just what you yell out when you hit it with your lightsaber and find it doesn't cut through the stuff.Damn. That joked worked way better back when i thought you had it right the first time.

Because they're civilized, obviously.
Best answer EVER.

[Jayngfet]

The thing about Phrik is that it "deflects" in two ways. Both by being a superconductor that diffuses energy with a high melting point, so you won't be burning through it, and by being ultra dense and hard to physically slice. It's a metal with a lot of uses, but given the nature of star wars it shows up as a protective material.

Cortosis, meanwhile, just has some weird chemical thing that disrupts the effects holding a lightsabers blade together. Which isn't an entirely unique effect, as lightsabers also shut off when underwater unless specially modified. So it's presumably simulating a similar condition somehow.

Meanwhile you have a material like ultrachrome, which is used in starship manufacture, and is similar to Phiric as a dense superconductor. It's used to armor starships and will also occasionally show up as a lightsaber-resistant material.

Generally speaking the hard part about protecting yourself against a lightsaber isn't finding the materials. There are probably dozens of suitable materials and you could probably cobble something together quickly if you knew what you were looking for. The hard part is nobody ever expects to fight jedi. Even at their greatest number, there were only about ten thousand of them leading armies of millions to billions. The odds of fighting one mean that it's incredibly rare to put any kind of anti-jedi measure into rapid production.

[BlueHerring]

Generally speaking the hard part about protecting yourself against a lightsaber isn't finding the materials. There are probably dozens of suitable materials and you could probably cobble something together quickly if you knew what you were looking for. The hard part is nobody ever expects to fight jedi. Even at their greatest number, there were only about ten thousand of them leading armies of millions to billions. The odds of fighting one mean that it's incredibly rare to put any kind of anti-jedi measure into rapid production.Which brings up the question why an assassin hasn't ever gotten a modified blaster rifle (looks like the same model) that fired actual ballistic rounds made of one of those LS-resistant metals. Seems to me like that would be one heck of a way to mess with Jedi.

[Bohandas]

They seem to be able to block blasters with them and I think that explains much of their utility (as well as implicitly the sabers' tie to use of the force, as the ability to respond fast enough to do this with them is likely tied to some kind of prescience)

[Peelee]

Which brings up the question why an assassin hasn't ever gotten a modified blaster rifle (looks like the same model) that fired actual ballistic rounds made of one of those LS-resistant metals. Seems to me like that would be one heck of a way to mess with Jedi.

Because the optimal assassination methods are flying, window-opening robots who deliver venomous centipedes. What self-respecting assassin would use a gun? That's just plain silly.

[Jayngfet]

Which brings up the question why an assassin hasn't ever gotten a modified blaster rifle (looks like the same model) that fired actual ballistic rounds made of one of those LS-resistant metals. Seems to me like that would be one heck of a way to mess with Jedi.

...because jedi have precognitive abilities and don't sleep. If they don't reflect they can dodge. If they aren't gallavanting across the whole galaxy they're in a giant compound surrounded by other super knights. Assassinating a jedi under any circumstances is a death wish. A really good Assassin may manage but by that point you have many different options.

Besides, any kind of slugthrower rifle is a bizarre obscure niche weapon to begin with. It's not a super common implement outside of some outer rim cultures.

A weapon like that you'd get a couple of shots off on and if you don't get a killshot you're screwed.

[Bohandas]

Which brings up the question why an assassin hasn't ever gotten a modified blaster rifle (looks like the same model) that fired actual ballistic rounds made of one of those LS-resistant metals. Seems to me like that would be one heck of a way to mess with Jedi.

It seems to me that it would, if anything, be more plausible for something like that to be deflected. Regular rounds or plasma blasts one would expect to be melted or dispersed.

[Seppl]

Which brings up the question why an assassin hasn't ever gotten a modified blaster rifle (looks like the same model) that fired actual ballistic rounds made of one of those LS-resistant metals. Seems to me like that would be one heck of a way to mess with Jedi.A light saber resistant bullet would probably just get batted away instead of getting vaporized like a regular bullet would. It would not destroy or cut through the saber.

[Cespenar]

I still don't get why stormtroopers don't use shotgun-like weapons against the Jedi anyway.

[Brother Oni]

Which brings up the question why an assassin hasn't ever gotten a modified blaster rifle (looks like the same model) that fired actual ballistic rounds made of one of those LS-resistant metals. Seems to me like that would be one heck of a way to mess with Jedi.


I still don't get why stormtroopers don't use shotgun-like weapons against the Jedi anyway.

Because physical rounds can be Force pushed away or even stopped entirely ala Neo from The Matrix:

https://watchusplaygames.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/matrix-neo-stops-bullets-wallpaper.jpg

While shotguns could be effective against less experienced padawans and Knights, since the Jedi/Sith don't wear proper uniforms with identifiable insignia of their rank/power level, you never know whether you're facing an opponent you can defeat with a shotgun or a Master who will kill you with your own pellets - the last thing you want to do is to give a powerful Jedi more things to throw at you.

There's also the age old sci-fi issue of using projectile weapons on space vessels causing collateral damage (clone troopers fight in both space and planetside), plus the logistics of issuing multiple non-compatible weapon systems to every rank and file member of the Republic army.

That said, there are plenty of ways to hunt Jedi/Sith/Force sensitive individuals outside of specialised weapons and they're mentioned in the KotOR games. I think Atton Rand goes through a quite comprehensive list of them, such as masking your presence by thinking about something else (pazaak in his case example), striking from multiple angles so they can't react in time (clone troopers via Order 66), causing immense emotional distress (cripple the padawan/companions first), etc.

Going back to kit, massive amounts of incoming fire (the droidekas already mentioned) or AOE effects (eg bounty hunter wrist rockets) were also effective - either overload their precognition/reflexes or make it useless (they know an explosion's coming, they simply can't get out of the way in time).

[Quild]

Until the Prequels, you could make a case that only Jedi Knights used Lightsabers. It was their weapons, their symbols. Darth Vader uaed one because he used to be Jedi, and the Emperor seemed to dismiss it as some "Jedi toy".

But no. Because George Lucas apparently has no sense of.sublety and knew the only thing people would love his movies would be silly lightstick fights.

What about extended universe? It seems to me that some things went out between the trilogy and the prequels. It wasn't supposed to be canon, but were there Siths and lightsabers?

It never struck me odd to have Darth Maul wearing one in Episode 1. And I actually found those lightsabers fights very nice and impressive. I missed them in episode 7, they were the only thing that could be kept from the prequels!

[hamishspence]

What about extended universe? It seems to me that some things went out between the trilogy and the prequels. It wasn't supposed to be canon, but were there Siths and lightsabers?

Not only were there Sith with lightsabers, pre-prequels, but there was at least one Sith with a double-bladed lightsaber (Exar Kun).

It's possible that this was where Lucas got the idea from in the first place - he certainly didn't read all the EU - but he may have found out some things from it - and decided "That, I like."

[Emperordaniel]

The novelization of Revenge of the Sith also opened one of its chapters with a guide to constructing an effective Jedi trap;



[Chapter 15, Death on Utapau opening]

When constructing an effective Jedi trap—as opposed to the sort that results in nothing more than an embarrassingly brief entry in the Temple archives—there are several design features that one should include for best results.

The first is an irresistible bait. The commanding general of an outlaw nation, personally responsible for billions of deaths across the galaxy, is ideal.

The second is a remote, nearly inaccessible location, one that is easily taken and easily fortified, with a sharply restricted field of action. It should also, ideally, belong to someone else, preferably an enemy; the locations used for Jedi traps never survive the operation unscathed, and many don't survive it at all. An excellent choice would be an impoverished desert planet in the Outer Rim, with unwarlike natives, whose few cities are built in a cluster of sinkholes on a vast arid plateau. A city in a sinkhole is virtually a giant kill-jar; once a Jedi flies in, all one need do is seal the lid.

Third, since it is always a good idea to remain well out of reach when plotting against a Jedi's life—on the far side of the galaxy is considered best—one should have a reliable proxy to do the actual murder. The exemplar of a reliable proxy would be, for example, the most prolific living Jedi killer, backed up by a squad of advanced combat droids designed, built, and armed specifically to fight Jedi. Making one's proxy double as the bait is an impressively elegant stroke, if it can be managed, since it ensures that the Jedi victim will voluntarily place himself in contact with the Jedi killer—and will continue to do so even after he realizes the extent of the trap, out of a combination of devotion to duty and a not-entirely-unjustified arrogance.

The fourth element of an effective Jedi trap is a massively overwhelming force of combat troops who are willing to burn the whole planet, including themselves if necessary, to ensure that the Jedi in question does not escape.

A textbook example of the ideal Jedi trap is the one that waited on Utapau for Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[Chapter 15, Death on Utapau conclusion]
As has been said, the textbook example of a Jedi trap is the one that was set on Utapau, for Obi-Wan Kenobi. It worked perfectly.

The final element essential to the creation of a truly effective Jedi trap is a certain coldness of mind—a detachment, if you will, from any desire for a particular outcome.

The best way to arrange matters is to create a win-win situation.

For example, one might use as one's proxy a creature that not only is expendable, but would eventually have to be killed anyway. Thus, if one's proxy fails and is destroyed, it's no loss— in fact, the targeted Jedi has actually done one a favor, by taking care of a bit of dirty work one would otherwise have to do oneself.

And the final stroke of perfection is to organize the Jedi trap so that by walking into it at all, the Jedi has already lost.

That is to say, a Jedi trap works best when one's true goal is merely to make sure that the Jedi in question spends some hours or days off somewhere on the far side of the galaxy. So that he won't be around to interfere with one's real plans.

So that by the time he can return, it will be already too late.

[Kyberwulf]

Well, using the force to end a life is a major no no for Jedi. Since they aren't above killing and need an a way TO kill. Obi Wan said it too, Blasters where too random. They tend to miss a lot and if they hit a innocent bystander.

Side note, I always thought it was the Sith who made the Sabers first. Then the Jedi picked them up. Then The sith made the ones with out a battery pack, and the Jedi picked them up after that.

Either case. If one side was using Blasters, and had to face a wall of Sabers. I can see the need to escalate from Blasters to Sabers.

You can see the effectiveness of Sabers vs. Blasters in the hands of a force user.

[Kantaki]

Well, using the force to end a life is a major no no for Jedi. Since they aren't above killing and need an a way TO kill. Obi Wan said it too, Blasters where too random. They tend to miss a lot and if they hit a innocent bystander.

Side note, I always thought it was the Sith who made the Sabers first. Then the Jedi picked them up. Then The sith made the ones with out a battery pack, and the Jedi picked them up after that.

Either case. If one side was using Blasters, and had to face a wall of Sabers. I can see the need to escalate from Blasters to Sabers.

You can see the effectiveness of Sabers vs. Blasters in the hands of a force user.

I'm pretty sure the shism that resulted in the birth of the Sith-Order happened after the jedi started to use nightlights.
I don't know about the earlier history - it's possible that the first lightsaber was built by a darksider, but I think that happened so long ago - even by Star Wars "the same ship design is used for centuries, if not longer" standards- that it is hard to tell.
There was a comic that dealt with the earliest Jedi and their origin on Theton (or however you write that) in the galactic core, but I haven't read it. No idea if they had glowsticks there.

[lt_murgen]

I had a friend insisting that only Force User could use a lightsaber. But Han Solo's use of it in Empire shot down.

But just because you can turn a light saber on doesn't mean its of any use to you when facing guns and repeating weaponry.

There is a now non-canon source which discusses the lack of resistance and feedback in a lightsaber blade. All of the weight is in the handle so you have to have excellent body control to use one.

Could han turn it on/ Yes? Cut open a dead animal? Sure. Wield it in combat and not accidentally cutting something off? Maybe, with training.

The other part is that the Jedi prefer not to kill. An elegant weapon for literally disarming your opponent will end a fight but allow your opponent to live. With cloning and cybernetics, it won't even be that much of an inconvienence.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Lightsabers are emblematic of the Jedi: elegant weapons that require fine control to the point of precognition to use effectively, end fights in a single clean hit, just as useful as a light and a cutting tool as they are a weapon, easily used defensively (again, at least if you're vaguely precognitive). They're supremely efficient weapons for Jedi and Jedi needs specifically, and added to the Order's general fixation on maintaining continuity and traditions in the face of common sense, it's no surprise that they were the weapon of a Jedi Knight for anywhere from a thousand to well over 5000 years, depending on continuity (and what you're counting as a lightsaber).

Why do Sith use Lightsabers? Because the Jedi do, and the Sith as they existed prior to the (New) Sith Wars were a mix of a warrior culture that prides itself on physical prowess and ex-Jedi, or ex-Jedi that cribbed the notes of said earlier warrior culture for their own purposes. The Rule of Two Sith, the ones we see onscreen in the movies, tend to consist of either ex-Jedi, monsters specifically trained/built to beat Jedi at their own game, or a guy who prefers showmanship to effective combat tactics every day of the week. And as mentioned before, a Force User beating a Jedi in a comparatively-fair swordfight is a more reliable way of beating a Jedi one-on-one than just throwing things at him from a distance, even if those things are grenades or laser beams.

Now, if you're fighting a Jedi a thousand-on-one, the effectiveness of blasters becomes an entirely different story. Generally speaking Jedi go out of their way to avoid this, and it took decades of ridiculously circuitous plans to get the entire Order in a position where it would be effective in Ep III.

[Peelee]

I'd like to take this time to address everyone claiming Jedi prefer lightsabers because of their non-lethal capacity.

Blasters can be set for stun.

That is all.

[Ravens_cry]

Why? Because Star Wars (the original movies at least) is Fantasy . . . in . . . SPAAAACCCCCEEE!!!
In fantasy people use swords, so, in Star Wars, people use swords.
But they can't use sword swords, as that’s not spacy enough, so they use space swords, laser swords, light sabres!
Any in-universe reason will be a post facto explanation retrofitted over that basic fact.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

And don't answer because it looks cool in a movie. I know that's why George Lucas included lightsabers in the movies, but I just want to know if there's a valid in-universe explanation for why people who can fling each other around and shoot lightning and do all sorts of other amazing and powerful things need to fight each other by swinging swords around.

My in-universe theory is that those amazing and powerful things Jedi and Sith can do go a long way to negating the disadvantages you have in close combat versus ranged weaponry, as well as allowing them to use the lightsaber optimally (blaster deflection, etc). The technology helps, of course.

Why they don't just go full-on space wizard is probably for practical reasons. I suppose not all Force users have the same level of aptitude in telekinesis and whatnot, so having a physical combat skill integrated with their training makes sense. Learning not to hack your own head off while swinging a lightsaber blindfolded may be a Force-related skill, I dunno.

[Emperordaniel]

If like to take this time to address everyone claiming Jedi prefer lightsabers because of their non-lethal capacity.

Blasters can be set for stun.

That is all.

Attack of the Clones (and one episode of The Clone Wars) had training lightsabers, which were effectively lightsabers permanently set to "stun"-mode. Also, if I remember from the old EU, some lightsabers had the ability to have their power output changed so that they could variously be in low-power "stun" mode or high-power "slice" mode.

[Peelee]

Attack of the Clones (and one episode of The Clone Wars) had training lightsabers, which were effectively lightsabers permanently set to "stun"-mode. Also, if I remember from the old EU, some lightsabers had the ability to have their power output changed so that they could variously be in low-power "stun" mode or high-power "slice" mode.

I haven't read the novelizations, but was "stun" explicitly a setting, or was it simply low-power mode? If i remember the Bane books, low-power mode just hurt like a b****.

Besides. Ranged stun is better than close combat stun. At the least, Jedi should have been equipped with a holdout blaster in addition to the lightsaber, logically. Takes away a lot of the romanticism, though.

[Kantaki]

I haven't read the novelizations, but was "stun" explicitly a setting, or was it simply low-power mode? If i remember the Bane books, low-power mode just hurt like a b****.

The Darth Bane books... Didn't they train with blunt-ish (vibro?)swords that had some mildly paralyzing poison on them in that trilogy?
But yes, from what I remember from the books about Obi’s padawanhood trainingsabers are more painful than stunning. More bruises and light burns (at worst) and enough pain to learn „don't get hit” than nighty-night.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think Jedi not generally equipping themselves with blasters had nothing to do with practical considerations and everything to do with image and philosophy. A Jedi uses his powers, whether calling upon the Force or his own physical capabilities, for defense - never for attack. You cannot defend yourself with a blaster or firearm the way you can with a lightsaber and the Force. You can attack people - and Jedi don't shy away from counterattacking those who attack them or others, to be sure - but then it becomes a shootout, rather than the defensive action of parry and riposte. For all their rather insanely overspecced power when it comes to slicing and dicing, ultimately, lightsabers can be used to directly defend one's person and blasters can't - they can only shoot the guy who's shooting at you.

[Flickerdart]

Why can't blasters be used to parry? From what I recall, blaster fire is plasma inside a magnetic field. Couldn't a Jedi fire in such a way that his magnetic field deflected the attacker's magnetic field?

[Peelee]

[blasters] can only shoot the guy who's shooting at you.

Ah, but if that return shot is nonlethal, nonpainful, and simply renders the offensive shooter unconscious and no longer able to attack, is it truly not a defensive option? Especially if one considers Ben Kenobi slicing two arms off when a blaster is pulled in a bar as "defensive?" At this point, the only real difference is range.


Why can't blasters be used to parry? From what I recall, blaster fire is plasma inside a magnetic field. Couldn't a Jedi fire in such a way that his magnetic field deflected the attacker's magnetic field?

To wit, I thought there was a Jedi who did exactly that.

[Kantaki]

Why can't blasters be used to parry? From what I recall, blaster fire is plasma inside a magnetic field. Couldn't a Jedi fire in such a way that his magnetic field deflected the attacker's magnetic field?

One of the players in Darths and Droids asked that question. The DM said no and I think I agree. Getting a meleeweapon between you and that blasterbolt is one thing, hitting it with a blasterbolt from your own weapon another. And even if it works you have to deal with your own shot coming back, making it impractical.

[Gnoman]

IIRC, in the old EU, the lightsaber was the last remnant of the older form of the Jedi order, after they and the Republic agreed that the Jedi would step back from an active leadership role in the Republic, disband their armies, scrap their battle fleets, and act primarily as diplomats and advisers. The lightsaber was retained as much as a badge of office as a weapon.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Ah, but if that return shot is nonlethal, nonpainful, and simply renders the offensive shooter unconscious and no longer able to attack, is it truly not a defensive option? Especially if one considers Ben Kenobi slicing two arms off when a blaster is pulled in a bar as "defensive?" At this point, the only real difference is range.

It's a perception thing. Interposing something between an attacker and yourself/another seems like a much more defensive action than counterattacking your attacker, even nonlethally. The fact that a lightsaber is then generally used to dismember the schmuck who fired the blaster is less important philosophically/image-wise than the fact that it is both sword and shield.

[Clertar]

IIRC, in the old EU, the lightsaber was the last remnant of the older form of the Jedi order, after they and the Republic agreed that the Jedi would step back from an active leadership role in the Republic, disband their armies, scrap their battle fleets, and act primarily as diplomats and advisers. The lightsaber was retained as much as a badge of office as a weapon.

https://youtu.be/qD6IXIE0cok?t=38

[Gnoman]

What does a physically impossible scene from a very poor movie have to do with anything?

[KillianHawkeye]

Why can't blasters be used to parry? From what I recall, blaster fire is plasma inside a magnetic field. Couldn't a Jedi fire in such a way that his magnetic field deflected the attacker's magnetic field?

Jedi are pretty slick, but most of them aren't Vash the Stampede. :smallamused:

[MLai]

Jedi and Sith fight each other in what is essentially a contest of precognition. They can do it using metal swords and achieve the same purpose; the lightsaber is simply a better sword which has other utilities (such as making enemy blasters useless).

Why swords instead of Equilibrium-type gun fu? My headcanon is that because projectile trajectories are perfectly linear and therefore way too easy to anticipate via precog. Force-sensitives trying to duel each other using guns would be like professional boxers fighting each other, but only allowed to throw wide haymaker punches.

Even though bullets are faster than swords, the raw speed is actually not the deciding factor to precog-fighters, since the precog sees it coming no matter what. The important factor is actually the number of possible outcomes, which can only be manipulated when the opposing precog is in direct control of his weapon. It's a contest of rapidly-adapting precognition.

[Killer Angel]

https://youtu.be/qD6IXIE0cok?t=38

:smallconfused:
Care to elaborate?

[Brother Oni]

It's a contest of rapidly-adapting precognition.

Or having the high ground (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H3o8r7JgGY). :smalltongue:

In deference to the lore, I'm told that Obi-wan's lightsabre style was essentially designed for that sort of situation, so Anakin's leap was basically a suicide charge (even if he didn't realise it himself).

[MLai]

In deference to the lore, I'm told that Obi-wan's lightsabre style was essentially designed for that sort of situation, so Anakin's leap was basically a suicide charge (even if he didn't realise it himself).
That is no defense. That is the lamest retcon Lucasplaining I've heard yet.
So glad EU died in a fire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3pMlKXAZWM

[SouthpawSoldier]

Couple of points, though most of it is based on fuzzy recollection of EU material, so take with a 5lb block of pink Himalayan salt.

The early Jedi weapons were swords; they used the Force to perfectly align the atoms of the blade material, for supernatural sharpness, edge retention, and strength. Only logical that lightsabers are a nod to that legacy.

Not only did Jedi have to find a crystal with which they were attuned, but the process of lightsaber construction was the final step in a Jedi's training. Again ties into using the Force to align the atoms of the crystal; improves conduction, and "solders" the crystal with the wiring to the power source. Both were essential to the lightsaber functioning. Crystals could be purged and reattuned, taking on color and properties based on owner's personality.

Force ability was tied to lightsaber use. One could clumsily slash, but lack of blade weight combined with saber handle vibration made it really dangerous for someone without Force-user reflexes and awareness.

Note: Sith crystals are red due to a couple of points; the nature of Dark Side personalities, and the Jedi had all known sources of crystals under surveillance. Sith crystals were synthetic in nature. After Order 66 and Vader's destruction of crystal sources, they were in short supply; Leia's first lightsaber had a red crystal, since that was all Luke had available.

Sources:
There's a novel in the Dark Nest trilogy where a Ewok (I think) is spun around when using a lightsaber in null-gee. When Luke meets Mara Jade, she uses his blade, and there's commentary that one must be Force sensitive to use one safely/effectively.

There was a more recent novel where a young Jedi knight took a Sith crystal, purged it clear, and then re-attuned it, turning the crystal yellow in line with his personality/nature. The blade was yellow, but pulsed instead of steady, causing character reflection on his changing personality.

The novelization of Episode V describes Luke spending several days (at least) in meditation while constructing his lightsaber. A few other novels mention this as well. One in which the main character rushes, only spending a day or three in meditation, and there's a subsequent feeling of being exhausted.

As to the OP's question; in addition to points already raised re: practicality of lightsaber use, I think there's also an emotional one as well. It's a status symbol, marking one as being in tune with the Force; a weapon of elegance, that requires intense skill and training to use effectively. Not a weapon for the naturally aggressive, aside from the Sith using them to mock the Jedi ("We can do it to-ooooo!")

[ThinkMinty]

Sith and Jedi are space wizards. If you try shooting them with pew pew beams, they could block the beams with any number of things besides lightsabers, or just bounce out of the way then glob lightning and/or debris at your face. The lightsaber is so they can fight each-other in a cinematic fight that takes a few minutes rather than in a scenery-melting DBZ fight that leaves craters and smeared paste that used to be people everywhere. It provides a focus for their abilities and a potent offensive option that doesn't involve hucking spaceships at your opponent for a laugh.

Lightsabers for me feel like they keep the Jedi and the Sith from causing too much property damage everywhere they go, because "cut it with a laserbeam" does less harm to other people and places in their wizard conflicts than "telekinetic pajama dance and murder party" does. The lightsaber makes them rely on the more mass-destructive Force abilities less often. They're toys to keep the Force users entertained, contained, and killing less bystanders.

This is completely my subjective opinion, though. Outside my own subjectivity, and in the Doylian sense, it's because they look cool, and the story will then explain them in some way because they look cool.

[SouthpawSoldier]

....The lightsaber is so they can fight each-other...
Lightsabers for me feel like they keep the Jedi and the Sith from causing too much property damage everywhere they go, because "cut it with a laserbeam" does less harm to other people and places in their wizard conflicts.... The lightsaber makes them rely on the more mass-destructive Force abilities less often. They're toys to keep the Force users entertained, contained, and killing less bystanders.

This is completely my subjective opinion, though. Outside my own subjectivity, and in the Doylian sense, it's because they look cool, and the story will then explain them in some way because they look cool.

This fits in line with the fluff explanation of "blah bah "elegant weapon" blah blah "civilized era"".

Also, totally love your alignment guide. Just skimmed it after seeing your sig; not only ties in with my stance of morality via objective individual ethical analysis, but fantastically well-written. Bookmarked for more in depth reading.

[Peelee]

That is no defense. That is the lamest retcon Lucasplaining I've heard yet.

If that's the lamest retcon Lucasplaining you've heard, then you have my envy, sir.

[Nerd-o-rama]

In deference to the choreography, there really are distinct swordfighting styles in every movie but A New Hope that roughly align with the EU fluff on "lightsaber forms". Everyone in Ep I uses an acrobatic style, Obi-Wan changes to a cautious defensive form as of Ep II, Dooku fences, Anakin (and Vader when he's being serious) uses powerful sweeping blows, etc. Even in The Force Awakens, Kylo Ren deliberately uses a more basic form of Anakin and Vader's moves, using a longer sword to make up for his relative lack of muscles/cybernetics.

(Meanwhile, Luke and Rey just kind of fake it till they make it because no one ever actually trained either of them to swordfight).

[Cikomyr]

The silly dance-swordfights of the prequel was a thing i liked back when i first saw them, but since grown to find them meaningless and boring. No emotion, no subtext. Just peoples prancing about in a pre-rehearsed cohegraphy that you know will no achieve a goddamn thing, since no one ever lands a ****ing blow.

When a killing blow do happens (Qi-Gon), its out of the blues, no buildup and no emotional consequences. Obi-Wan loses all emotional momentum because both combattants have to wait behind a bloody redscreen before engaging in a fight.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah Episode I is very Wuxia while missing the mark on implementing the melodrama that makes people actually like Wuxia. It's still choreographed by Ray Park so on a technical level it's not bad.

[Cikomyr]

So its all eye-candy and no substance.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah Episode I is very Wuxia while missing the mark on implementing the melodrama that makes people actually like Wuxia. It's still choreographed by Ray Park so on a technical level it's not bad.
"Aim to the side, dodge as a precaution."
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-16-2015/mV-Bui.gif

[Kyberwulf]

I can't watch anything wuxia.. ish. It's all meaningless movement.

[warty goblin]

Being the prequel-loving heretic that I am, I actually like their lightsaber fights. Sure nobody would actually fight that way, but I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of a fighter making a banked turn in space, and they don't look quite like anything else. The cinematography is generally excellent, the choreography is elaborate and creative, they're backed by really excellent music, and I find them to be high quality, engaging action scenes.

[Jayngfet]

Couple of points, though most of it is based on fuzzy recollection of EU material, so take with a 5lb block of pink Himalayan salt.

The early Jedi weapons were swords; they used the Force to perfectly align the atoms of the blade material, for supernatural sharpness, edge retention, and strength. Only logical that lightsabers are a nod to that legacy.

Not only did Jedi have to find a crystal with which they were attuned, but the process of lightsaber construction was the final step in a Jedi's training. Again ties into using the Force to align the atoms of the crystal; improves conduction, and "solders" the crystal with the wiring to the power source. Both were essential to the lightsaber functioning. Crystals could be purged and reattuned, taking on color and properties based on owner's personality.

Force ability was tied to lightsaber use. One could clumsily slash, but lack of blade weight combined with saber handle vibration made it really dangerous for someone without Force-user reflexes and awareness.

Note: Sith crystals are red due to a couple of points; the nature of Dark Side personalities, and the Jedi had all known sources of crystals under surveillance. Sith crystals were synthetic in nature. After Order 66 and Vader's destruction of crystal sources, they were in short supply; Leia's first lightsaber had a red crystal, since that was all Luke had available.

Sources:
There's a novel in the Dark Nest trilogy where a Ewok (I think) is spun around when using a lightsaber in null-gee. When Luke meets Mara Jade, she uses his blade, and there's commentary that one must be Force sensitive to use one safely/effectively.

There was a more recent novel where a young Jedi knight took a Sith crystal, purged it clear, and then re-attuned it, turning the crystal yellow in line with his personality/nature. The blade was yellow, but pulsed instead of steady, causing character reflection on his changing personality.

The novelization of Episode V describes Luke spending several days (at least) in meditation while constructing his lightsaber. A few other novels mention this as well. One in which the main character rushes, only spending a day or three in meditation, and there's a subsequent feeling of being exhausted.

As to the OP's question; in addition to points already raised re: practicality of lightsaber use, I think there's also an emotional one as well. It's a status symbol, marking one as being in tune with the Force; a weapon of elegance, that requires intense skill and training to use effectively. Not a weapon for the naturally aggressive, aside from the Sith using them to mock the Jedi ("We can do it to-ooooo!")

Leia's first lightsaber was green, not red. The red one only happened like ten years after the green one.

[Peelee]

Being the prequel-loving heretic that I am, I actually like their lightsaber fights. Sure nobody would actually fight that way, but I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of a fighter making a banked turn in space, and they don't look quite like anything else. The cinematography is generally excellent, the choreography is elaborate and creative, they're backed by really excellent music, and I find them to be high quality, engaging action scenes.

Look, it's now that it isn't how people fight, it's that it lacked any emotional content. I cared about the combatants having a lightsaber duel in the prequels as much as I care about two opposing-color rainbows who bleed shooting stars having a fight to the death. Sure, it may look pretty, but why do we care?

You say you found then engaging. Take the duel on Mustafar. What, exactly, engaged you about it?

[hamishspence]

Couple of points, though most of it is based on fuzzy recollection of EU material, so take with a 5lb block of pink Himalayan salt.


The novelization of Episode V describes Luke spending several days (at least) in meditation while constructing his lightsaber. A few other novels mention this as well. One in which the main character rushes, only spending a day or three in meditation, and there's a subsequent feeling of being exhausted.


I believe you're thinking of Shadows of the Empire (none of the Episode V novels as far as I recall have Luke building it - since he doesn't need a new one till the end of Episode V)

It's in I, Jedi that Corran builds a lightsaber in 2.5 days - being rather tired when he finished doing so.

[SouthpawSoldier]

I believe you're thinking of Shadows of the Empire (none of the Episode V novels as far as I recall have Luke building it - since he doesn't need a new one till the end of Episode V).At first I was going to disagree, but after a quick Google search and skim of the synopsis, I'll admit it's possible; time frame of publishing is about right to when I remember reading about Luke's new blade.

Still, I'm fairly certain it was the prologue of Episode VI. It was the first SW novel I read, before I'd found all the EU material; back in '94ish. Short; only a few pages, describing him coming out of the trance, Artoo's concern for his safety/health, and then him concealing it in Artoo in preparation for infiltrating Jabba's palace. I don't remember reading about Xixor, Luke doing additional training, or any of the other material in Shadows. Just a little blurb about him preparing for Han's rescue.

[warty goblin]

Look, it's now that it isn't how people fight, it's that it lacked any emotional content. I cared about the combatants having a lightsaber duel in the prequels as much as I care about two opposing-color rainbows who bleed shooting stars having a fight to the death. Sure, it may look pretty, but why do we care?

You say you found then engaging. Take the duel on Mustafar. What, exactly, engaged you about it?

The duel on Mustafar is probably my favorite bit of all Star Wars. It's the place in the series that doubles down most on making the personal, the political, and the environmental indistinguishable from each other, and I'm a real sucker for that use of the fantastic.

The first stage of the duel is about the salvation or destruction of the Republic. One of the things I genuinely like about Star Wars is that it's one of the very few twentieth/twenty-first century fantasies that is unabashedly pro-democracy. Not just anti-tyranny in the sense that the nice people don't want to be ruled by the mean people in funny hats, but actually in favor of the rule of law, of having a legal process. That is emotionally involving for me, because the struggle to uphold an imperfect but broadly functional process against the destructive forces of unrestricted power-seeking and over-enthusiastic idealism is one I find interesting. This is also deeply wrapped up in the personal conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wan, and mirrors it very nicely. Anakin, being young, brash and idealistic wants power because he is sure he will do the right thing with it, and is too blind to see what he has done with the power he's got. Obi-Wan's position is always one of patience and working within the system, of self control and restraint, which is totally anathema to Anakin. Self restraint means not getting everything you want, and Anakin isn't - or has failed to become - that sort of person. This is all intercut with Yoda fighting the Emperor, connecting everything back to the entire galaxy again.

After Yoda fails, the duel on Mustafar becomes entirely irrelevant, and Obi-Wan has no idea that he literally cannot win. Anakin of course has lost everything he's fighting for, probably long before Padme followed him to Mustafar, and is simply so deluded, so convinced that he can make the world the way he wants it to be, that he hasn't seen this. There's a lot of pathos in these doomed efforts, at least for me. The landscape itself becomes steadily more and more dangerous, even as the politics become less so. The final portion of the duel, and Anakin's failed last assault, are perfectly in-character moments for the two of them. Obi-Wan does what he must, is horrified by it, and up until the last possible moment is clearly trying to talk Anakin down. Anakin mistakes desire for ability, and wanting something for doing that thing being both right and possible.

Now part of my affection for the prequels - particularly II and III, less so the mostly unnecessary I - is that they are an actual, honest to God tragedy. I love tragedy, and they're rare as tigers anymore. We've got drama, we've got grim and gritty, but very little tragedy in the classic vein, so I'm quite favorably disposed towards III simply on those grounds. The rather bad acting and stiff dialog don't particularly bother me; Star Wars has always had crap acting, and the more formal writing is occasionally clunky, but gives the movies a unique atmosphere, instead of being another bantery smartass-fest ala everything Joss Whedon has ever done. It's certainly not something that would fit with every story, but works well for me in a story about knights and princesses and forbidden love. And I approach II and III very much as a story of knights and princesses, not as one about modern twenty-somethings with super-powers*, which means that a lot of the things that annoy the snot out of some people simply don't phase me.


*Possibly because movies about modern twenty-somethings with super-powers bore me half to death. I'm a modern twenty-something, the last thing I need is endless regurgitation about the self-professed awesomeness of my hideously boring demographic.

[Cikomyr]

Look, it's now that it isn't how people fight, it's that it lacked any emotional content. I cared about the combatants having a lightsaber duel in the prequels as much as I care about two opposing-color rainbows who bleed shooting stars having a fight to the death. Sure, it may look pretty, but why do we care?

You say you found then engaging. Take the duel on Mustafar. What, exactly, engaged you about it?

Basically this.i felt more involved for the guys doing a staged Lightsaber duel in a fencing tournament than the actors swinging in a controlled environment.

Why? Because the crashers are doing a live performance, at least

[hamishspence]

Still, I'm fairly certain it was the prologue of Episode VI. It was the first SW novel I read, before I'd found all the EU material; back in '94ish. Short; only a few pages, describing him coming out of the trance, Artoo's concern for his safety/health, and then him concealing it in Artoo in preparation for infiltrating Jabba's palace.

Maybe it was a transcript of the Deleted Scene. It certainly isn't present in my copy of the James Kahn Episode VI novel.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Maybe it was a transcript of the Deleted Scene. It certainly isn't present in my copy of the James Kahn Episode VI novel.
It could be. Other mediums had more material; the radio theater version of New Hope, for example. It started with Leia and her father on Alderaan hosting a dinner with an Imperial muckety muck, dodging him to plan the mission to receive the Death Star specs.

[Emperordaniel]

You say you found then engaging. Take the duel on Mustafar. What, exactly, engaged you about it?

Brother vs. brother, ally vs. ally, two inseparable heroes of the Clone Wars irrevocably clashing blades...
(it helps that the soundtrack from that sequence is tied for being my most favorite battle music from the entire series to date - the only piece that matches it for sheer emotion is played when Luke launches his Dark Side-fueled assault on Vader at the end of Jedi)


<snip>

I was going to type something more in response, but then warty goblin put it so much better than I ever could.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The duel on Mustafar is probably my favorite bit of all Star Wars. It's the place in the series that doubles down most on making the personal, the political, and the environmental indistinguishable from each other, and I'm a real sucker for that use of the fantastic.

The first stage of the duel is about the salvation or destruction of the Republic. One of the things I genuinely like about Star Wars is that it's one of the very few twentieth/twenty-first century fantasies that is unabashedly pro-democracy. Not just anti-tyranny in the sense that the nice people don't want to be ruled by the mean people in funny hats, but actually in favor of the rule of law, of having a legal process. That is emotionally involving for me, because the struggle to uphold an imperfect but broadly functional process against the destructive forces of unrestricted power-seeking and over-enthusiastic idealism is one I find interesting. This is also deeply wrapped up in the personal conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wan, and mirrors it very nicely. Anakin, being young, brash and idealistic wants power because he is sure he will do the right thing with it, and is too blind to see what he has done with the power he's got. Obi-Wan's position is always one of patience and working within the system, of self control and restraint, which is totally anathema to Anakin. Self restraint means not getting everything you want, and Anakin isn't - or has failed to become - that sort of person. This is all intercut with Yoda fighting the Emperor, connecting everything back to the entire galaxy again.

After Yoda fails, the duel on Mustafar becomes entirely irrelevant, and Obi-Wan has no idea that he literally cannot win. Anakin of course has lost everything he's fighting for, probably long before Padme followed him to Mustafar, and is simply so deluded, so convinced that he can make the world the way he wants it to be, that he hasn't seen this. There's a lot of pathos in these doomed efforts, at least for me. The landscape itself becomes steadily more and more dangerous, even as the politics become less so. The final portion of the duel, and Anakin's failed last assault, are perfectly in-character moments for the two of them. Obi-Wan does what he must, is horrified by it, and up until the last possible moment is clearly trying to talk Anakin down. Anakin mistakes desire for ability, and wanting something for doing that thing being both right and possible.

Now part of my affection for the prequels - particularly II and III, less so the mostly unnecessary I - is that they are an actual, honest to God tragedy. I love tragedy, and they're rare as tigers anymore. We've got drama, we've got grim and gritty, but very little tragedy in the classic vein, so I'm quite favorably disposed towards III simply on those grounds. The rather bad acting and stiff dialog don't particularly bother me; Star Wars has always had crap acting, and the more formal writing is occasionally clunky, but gives the movies a unique atmosphere, instead of being another bantery smartass-fest ala everything Joss Whedon has ever done. It's certainly not something that would fit with every story, but works well for me in a story about knights and princesses and forbidden love. And I approach II and III very much as a story of knights and princesses, not as one about modern twenty-somethings with super-powers*, which means that a lot of the things that annoy the snot out of some people simply don't phase me.


*Possibly because movies about modern twenty-somethings with super-powers bore me half to death. I'm a modern twenty-something, the last thing I need is endless regurgitation about the self-professed awesomeness of my hideously boring demographic.

Wow. Warty. I think this is the first post of yours I've ever read where I at least 90% agree (right up until the random Whedon-bashing and edgy self-deprecating footnote, both of which I still appreciate the feeling behind). If there's nothing else good about the prequels, it's the actual outline of Anakin's fall and its connection back into the larger realities of the hamfisted political metaphor - maybe not so much the specifics of the writing and acting, but Lucas gonna Lucas.

[Cikomyr]

Meh. Its highly debatable and subjective.

I feel the duels in the OT (as well as in Episode 7) were waaaaay deeper and meaningful than a 15 minute special effect fest that loses its emotional momentum.

[warty goblin]

Brother vs. brother, ally vs. ally, two inseparable heroes of the Clone Wars irrevocably clashing blades...
(it helps that the soundtrack from that sequence is tied for being my most favorite battle music from the entire series to date - the only piece that matches it for sheer emotion is played when Luke launches his Dark Side-fueled assault on Vader at the end of Jedi)

I was going to type something more in response, but then warty goblin put it so much better than I ever could.
Thanks. And yes, you are right, the music is marvelous.


Wow. Warty. I think this is the first post of yours I've ever read where I at least 90% agree (right up until the random Whedon-bashing and edgy self-deprecating footnote, both of which I still appreciate the feeling behind). If there's nothing else good about the prequels, it's the actual outline of Anakin's fall and its connection back into the larger realities of the hamfisted political metaphor - maybe not so much the specifics of the writing and acting, but Lucas gonna Lucas.
Also thanks. Think of it less as Whedon-bashing than Whedon-exhaustion. I don't necessarily mind his particular brand of smartass dialog - I've watched all of Buffy once, and most of it twice* - but dear me is it getting ubiquitous, and that sort of smarminess would work horribly for something like Episode III.

As to the footnote, well, yes it could have been better put. Suffice to say that I like that the prequels are about people living lives very distant from modern liberal twenty-somethings, and who don't even want that sort of life. There's nothing necessarily wrong about super-powered modern liberal twenty-somethings, but it's damn fun to take a vacation from 'em once and a while.

*Except the seventh season, for which, well let's just say that once was sufficient and leave it at that.

[Cikomyr]

Brother vs. brother, ally vs. ally, two inseparable heroes of the Clone Wars irrevocably clashing blades...


What Brother Against Brother? It was a fight between two people we are TOLD were close, but shared almost no chemistry together. They kept whining about each other, their respective methods and attitudes. Beside combat prowess, neither ever showed any sign of respect for the judgement or abilities of the other.

That fight was the inevitable eruption of tension that has been building up since their very first scene together in Attack of the Clone. And since then, we havent had one positive thing shared between either character beside their contrite moments when its obvious they feel they have to say something nice about the other.

Sure, Anakin might say ONCE he finds Obi-Wan wise, but he never seem to ACCEPT his judgement, only begrudgingly do what he is told while whining all the way. And Obi-Wan talks to Anakin all the time likr he would do a freaking teenager.

You do not earn your big "clash of brothers" scene because we have been TOLD these men were close while SHOWing for every single shared scenes that they went on each other's nerves. For it to work, Lucas should have put a modicum of work into making me buy into their genuine relationship.

So if there is no genuine relationship to care about, the action dependant on said relationship falls even flatter.


And dont get me started on the bloody stupid Lightsaber fight between Yoda and Palpatine. This is like Altair and Solid Snake having their Climatic Duel be a boxing match.

[Forum Explorer]

Or having the high ground (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H3o8r7JgGY). :smalltongue:

In deference to the lore, I'm told that Obi-wan's lightsabre style was essentially designed for that sort of situation, so Anakin's leap was basically a suicide charge (even if he didn't realise it himself).

Eh, I always forgave that scene because it's really hard to sum up why and how you have a tactical advantage and your opponent can't win in a single sentence after a long exhausting fight (both physically and emotionally) and not sound like a total idiot.

[Nerd-o-rama]

And dont get me started on the bloody stupid Lightsaber fight between Yoda and Palpatine. This is like Altair and Solid Snake having their Climatic Duel be a boxing match.

Or Snake and Ocelot having their climactic duel being a boxing match, ri--wait.

And I dunno. As poorly-directed as it was, Ewan MacGregor and Hayden Christiansen's acting kind of saved the Obi-wan/Anakin conflict. Should the second (well, first, just make AotC the first film) and half of the third movies basically just been replaced with relevant The Clone Wars plots? Absolutely. But through the horrible pacing and overly micromanaged shouting, I still got the emotional content of that particular relationship as two brothers who never did quite learn how to express themselves or trust each other fully, which is part of what led to the inevitable tragedy.

[warty goblin]

What Brother Against Brother? It was a fight between two people we are TOLD were close, but shared almost no chemistry together. They kept whining about each other, their respective methods and attitudes. Beside combat prowess, neither ever showed any sign of respect for the judgement or abilities of the other.

That fight was the inevitable eruption of tension that has been building up since their very first scene together in Attack of the Clone. And since then, we havent had one positive thing shared between either character beside their contrite moments when its obvious they feel they have to say something nice about the other.

Sure, Anakin might say ONCE he finds Obi-Wan wise, but he never seem to ACCEPT his judgement, only begrudgingly do what he is told while whining all the way. And Obi-Wan talks to Anakin all the time likr he would do a freaking teenager.

You do not earn your big "clash of brothers" scene because we have been TOLD these men were close while SHOWing for every single shared scenes that they went on each other's nerves. For it to work, Lucas should have put a modicum of work into making me buy into their genuine relationship.

See, there's times where I really wonder if I watch movies extremely differently from everybody else, or actually live in a weird, shadow dimension where I just have different movies. Because I thought that II and III showed a reasonably functional and fairly close working relationship between two people with some fairly substantial personality differences, with the added complication that they're quite similar in age, but one has authority over the other. This isn't a relationship driven by things like visible empathy or showing care and support, but more by the particular flavor and tone of disagreement. They never agree, but sometimes its a sign of affection, and sometimes it isn't, and everybody involved understands the difference.

Which is a lot like some of the best male friendships I've had. I'm in particular thinking of the one where my boss would occasionally throw things at me, once smeared my arm with flesh-dissolving chemicals, and took excessive joy in laughing at my minor mistakes. I responded by working my ass off, laughing at my now-bubbling skin, and generally just going with it. He knew not to go too far, I trusted he wouldn't go too far, he knew I'd bust major hump to make sure things got done, I knew he'd have my back when I couldn't get everything cleared away solo. And nobody ever said anything about this, and only ever took a break from the constant string of abuse and petty belittlement for a few, very serious matters like people dying. Honestly it was one of the most enjoyable and closest employee/employer relationships I've had. Hell, I haven't had that job in five years, and I still miss parts of it, even though it was filthy, had horrible hours, usually ended up with me covered in burns, and paid squat.

It isn't the sort of relationship that really fits the template of a modern supportive friendship, but that hardly means it isn't real, or sincere.

[Kantaki]

Eh, I always forgave that scene because it's really hard to sum up why and how you have a tactical advantage and your opponent can't win in a single sentence after a long exhausting fight (both physically and emotionally) and not sound like a total idiot.

Oh, the high ground thing?
One reason for me to watch Episode 3 in german.*
Not much better, but there is a slight difference that makes Anakin’s jump more understandable for me. In german Obi-wan’s line is (roughly translated) „I'm standing far/cleary above you”.
That gives it a double meaning that (to me at least**) isn't there in the high ground line. Of course Anakin had to take it as a comment about their respective abilities and not abou.
The fight as whole is pretty emotional and tragic to me. Sure, the music and scenery have a great part in that, but that goes for all of the movies.

*The other would be Palpatine’s „New Order” speech. I remember sitting in the cinema and thinking „I know that guy is a lying liar who lies. I know he is evil and orchestrated the war to wipe out the Jedi and take over the galaxy. I still would follow him.”
**Is there? If so please tell me. Learning new things can't hurt.

[137beth]

The whole "high ground" thing was lambasted in the Darths and Droids commentary (http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0622.html) of an earlier part of the fight.

At the start of this strip, Obi-Wan has an overwhelming tactical advantage in the fight at this point in the movie. He should simply win at this point and the fight should be over. After all, he has the high ground. Much higher than Anakin. Surely any lesser advantage that may occur later shouldn't be nearly as decisive.

However, what I liked about it was that if you watch the films in Machete Order, Anakin's next line sets up an early scene in RotJ. Anakin says "You underestimate my power." The next time we hear that line (in Machete Order), it's Luke saying it to Jabba, right after force-choking a guard. The fact that Luke is clearly on the path to the dark side at the start of RotJ just hightens the pay-off when he doesn't fall at the end. Overall, I think it's good for the series because I found RotJ to be a really underwhelming anti-climax when I first watched the OT (without the prequels).
That said, there really ought to have been a way to set up Anakin's power-under-estimating line that doesn't make Obi-Wan sound dumb.


**Is there? If so please tell me. Learning new things can't hurt.
Unless you are a force-sensitive, in which case learning how to use the Dark Side can cause you to Fall:smalltongue:

[Nerd-o-rama]

**Is there? If so please tell me. Learning new things can't hurt.

In English, we say someone has "the moral high ground" when they are more moral than someone else and are speaking from a position of moral authority, as Obi-Wan - Anakin's Master and paragon of the Jedi ideal of his day - is in this line. So, it has a (rather blunt) double meaning in English as well.

Also, warty, I don't mean to tell you your business, but generally speaking the dissolution of flesh isn't something to be done playfully.

[Kyberwulf]

I think this thread is being derailed into another one of those where people complain about the Prequel Trilogy.

I think the first ones are alright. People just read into them to much nostalgia, and put to much cred on the original movies. The Original Movies, where good. But they don't really hold up well, and they aren't that great anymore. For their time, they where good.

[MLai]

Also, warty, I don't mean to tell you your business, but generally speaking the dissolution of flesh isn't something to be done playfully.
Yeah, the way he phrased his post it sounds disturbingly like someone trying to rationalize staying inside an abusive spousal relationship.
Throw **** and laugh mockingly? Yeah sure, "tough guys" do that and generally it's just a tribal hazing kind of learned-tradition behavior. But he threw acid that permanently scarred you? Prison time has been dispensed over less.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Eh, I can give the benefit of the doubt that it just caused some caustic abrasion on the epidermis that peeled off eventually, as I don't know the situation. I just think even in that case it's something that could quickly get out of hand by accident.

[ben-zayb]

Long-ranged weaponry can't be accurately used due to Minovsky particles. Oh, crap, that's a different series, I think...


Long-ranged weaponry can't be accurately used due to the Force.

[Peelee]

Warty goblin, i wish i could see the movies the way you do. Seriously, i love Star Wars, and i just can't imagine the prequels through yoir frame of reference, and that makes me kind of sad.

I don'tsee Obe-Wan amd Anakin as friends, because at no point do they act like it. We're told they are friends, we're told of their adventures, but we don'tsee anything except a master admonishing his student, and his student rebelling. They have a very definitive teacher/student relationship, but that's all it comes off as. They just dont really seem to actually like each other beyond the becessity of their tutorial relationship. Their "friendship" not only comes off as artificial and forced, but badly done at that. I don't know anyome whose friendships with each other, let alone with me, have been anywhere near like that of Anakin's and Obi-Wan's without falling apart after a few short years at most. They have no chemistry together. They don't seem to have any relationship beyond master/apprentice. Hell, the only time they seem to genuinely like one another is when they're talking about old times, and even that gets ruined quickly by Anakin being an egotistical jerk about it. That's not friendship, that's professional resentment.

[Jayngfet]

There are moments where the relationship shines through. They're just very brief ones. That intro scene in the elevator shows they can be friends. And in ep 3 when they depart the landing ship there's a similar shot.

The problem is mostly that the plot demands they don't have many scenes together. When Obi Wan is on Kamino and Anakin is on Naboo they can't establish friendship terribly well.

[Killer Angel]

Or having the high ground (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H3o8r7JgGY). :smalltongue:

In deference to the lore, I'm told that Obi-wan's lightsabre style was essentially designed for that sort of situation, so Anakin's leap was basically a suicide charge (even if he didn't realise it himself).

There are ways to bypass the "having high ground" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lC6dgtBU6Gs#t=29). :smallwink:

[Kantaki]

Unless you are a force-sensitive, in which case learning how to use the Dark Side can cause you to Fall:smalltongue:

Falling to the dark side doesn't hurt. Your old friend/master/brother chopping your limbs off and throwing you into a lava-pit hurts.:smallamused:


In English, we say someone has "the moral high ground" when they are more moral than someone else and are speaking from a position of moral authority, as Obi-Wan - Anakin's Master and paragon of the Jedi ideal of his day - is in this line. So, it has a (rather blunt) double meaning in English as well.

Ah, yes. So there is a double meaning, just a different one. Thanks.

[Peelee]

There are moments where the relationship shines through. They're just very brief ones. That intro scene in the elevator shows they can be friends. And in ep 3 when they depart the landing ship there's a similar shot.

See, I feel the opposite. The elevator scene shows that they are colleagues that are able to work together, and hey, they even have some fond memories, but ultimately they don't really mesh. Hell, it may be just as simple as an actor chemistry issue, ya know? Han razzled Chewie a good bit in the original, but when it's time to put the manacles on in order to trick the detention center guards, Luke damn near gets his head ripped off while Han can saunter up and reassure the Wookiee in seconds. That's innate trust, on a personal really personal level. I just never got a manacle scene feeling from Kenobi and Skywalker.

[Cikomyr]

See, I feel the opposite. The elevator scene shows that they are colleagues that are able to work together, and hey, they even have some fond memories, but ultimately they don't really mesh. Hell, it may be just as simple as an actor chemistry issue, ya know? Han razzled Chewie a good bit in the original, but when it's time to put the manacles on in order to trick the detention center guards, Luke damn near gets his head ripped off while Han can saunter up and reassure the Wookiee in seconds. That's innate trust, on a personal really personal level. I just never got a manacle scene feeling from Kenobi and Skywalker.

Basically this. I mean, their very first scene, Obi-Wan feels Anakin is nervous. And what is his first reflex? He calls him out on it. He tells him to clam down, rather than trying to understand his actual fears and properly help his through it.

He behaves like a supervisor admonishing his trainee, not like a personal friend he has had known and raised for the past 10 years of his life.

Anakin was supposed to have spend almost half of his life, and the quasi majority of his conscious existence with Obi-Wan. This. Never. Shows.

I accuse bad writing, bad directing. Bad screenwriting. Maybe the actors are also to blame, but they would have hardly made a difference. Good actors can only do with what they are being given.

[warty goblin]

Yeah, the way he phrased his post it sounds disturbingly like someone trying to rationalize staying inside an abusive spousal relationship.
Throw **** and laugh mockingly? Yeah sure, "tough guys" do that and generally it's just a tribal hazing kind of learned-tradition behavior. But he threw acid that permanently scarred you? Prison time has been dispensed over less.

Oh for crying out loud, it was some minor horseplay that maybe went like 3% too far. There was some flesh bubbling, and it hurt a bit, but that's about all. It may not even have been the worst burn I sustained that week*, and certainly wasn't the worst I had that year. Really, even in the line of horseplay injuries, it was hardly a thing, and also legit hilarious.

As for the other stuff, it was generally a lot of fun, and I think it did me a lot of good. Toughened the hide, got me to relax, certainly taught me a lot. The following year was extremely miserable and disappointing, and I don't think I would have borne up nearly as well without those previous experiences. And there was a certain delicious freedom in the most anything goes, we've got each other's backs attitude. It was one of the best years of my life, and I miss that sort of freedom.



Warty goblin, i wish i could see the movies the way you do. Seriously, i love Star Wars, and i just can't imagine the prequels through yoir frame of reference, and that makes me kind of sad.

I don'tsee Obe-Wan amd Anakin as friends, because at no point do they act like it. We're told they are friends, we're told of their adventures, but we don'tsee anything except a master admonishing his student, and his student rebelling. They have a very definitive teacher/student relationship, but that's all it comes off as. They just dont really seem to actually like each other beyond the becessity of their tutorial relationship. Their "friendship" not only comes off as artificial and forced, but badly done at that. I don't know anyome whose friendships with each other, let alone with me, have been anywhere near like that of Anakin's and Obi-Wan's without falling apart after a few short years at most. They have no chemistry together. They don't seem to have any relationship beyond master/apprentice. Hell, the only time they seem to genuinely like one another is when they're talking about old times, and even that gets ruined quickly by Anakin being an egotistical jerk about it. That's not friendship, that's professional resentment.
Thanks for that, it's nice to have a genuine discussion of the prequels.

Here's maybe an alternative perspective that might be useful. I don't think Anakin and Obi-Wan are friends in the sense that if they were strangers at a party, they'd end up having a long, interesting conversation in a corner and end up lifelong best buds. What they are is friends (or perhaps more accurately companions) by necessity; they've been thrown in together and have to make a somewhat weird situation work. This is a rather different sort of relationship, but I don't think that makes it less real, or even necessarily less close. So yes they do clearly get on each other's nerves to a large degree, and the entire relationship is framed as a sort of competition or exercise in getting the other to do something he doesn't want to do. As I said before though, these disagreements are not all alike, and some of them are affectionate, others are real get your ass in gear sorts of things, and both of them know which is which. It's basically a sort of performance that allows each person to say what they want and need to, but with enough distance that their radically different personalities won't make the whole thing blow up. That doesn't mean they don't like each other, because I think they genuinely do, it just means that they're also held at a certain distance. Obi-Wan saying Anakin is his brother isn't a misnomer at all, since you don't choose your brothers, and may be pretty substantially different sorts of people you'd never get along with otherwise. But you often do love them, through shared history and experience.

(This was what I was trying to get at with my work digression. I was, for that year, very close to my boss, even though the relationship looked, from the outside, not at all close, and we were extremely different sorts of people who wouldn't normally get on at all. Once I had quit the restaurant, there wasn't really anything to hold the friendship together, but for that year it was extremely strong. It was a relationship of necessity that worked by its own odd logic and weird language, but while it was necessary, it was very genuine and affectionate. It's not the sort of thing we really have a template for in modern discourse, since we tend to emphasize making friends by choice with people with whom we have a lot in common. I think that says more about the limitations of modern notions of friendship than it does the sort of friendships people can actually have. )

[Nerd-o-rama]

And I mean, it also plays into the tragedy. Emotionally, Obi-wan could not give Anakin what he needed. No one in the Jedi Order could. Not even Padmé could, because what Anakin wanted was completely unreasonable and he didn't have a support network who could talk him down to a more realistic set of life goals than "make sure no one I care about ever gets hurt again for any reason". That fixation on preventing emotional loss to himself became an obsession and led to a downward spiral that no one except Supreme Enabler Palpatine knew how to deal with.

Back to Obi-wan and Anakin specifically, though, it might be more reasonable to look at them as family rather than friends. Friends, in modern American society at least, connotes a relationship of choice or convenience, while family is often a matter of necessity and one person choosing to take responsibility for the life of another, as Obi-wan did for Anakin. And family relationships - especially masculine nuclear family relationships like father and son or brother and brother - are often aggressive, abrasive, and competitive, just like Anakin and Obi-wan. You don't "get to know" your family so much as they are a part of who you are. You might fight and snark and bitch about each other in a family, but in the end you care about each other as much or more than any other relationship you can think of (I'd say barring abusive relationships but frankly this emotional connection is what makes familial abuse so tragic and hard to escape anyway).

And looking at Obi-wan and Anakin as two bickering brothers who don't quite understand each other but still try meet each other halfway (even if it's by racing for the same goal) in all their scenes together up until the third act of RotS makes it just as tragic, if perhaps not as immediately heartwrenching, as if they'd had instant-friendship "bromance" and obvious caring for each other like (just as an example) Finn and Poe in TFA got. Or even the Luke and Han relationship of abrasive partnership of necessity leading in to genuine caring.

Basically I can buy Obi-wan and Anakin as brothers even if they're harder to buy as friends, and that's what gave some emotional weight to the otherwise ridiculous RotS finale duel.

[Brother Oni]

He behaves like a supervisor admonishing his trainee, not like a personal friend he has had known and raised for the past 10 years of his life.

Now I got a traditional martial arts master/student relationship (specifically a sifu/student one), where the master is supposed to admonish his student for lapses like that, especially if he's supposed to know better. You could argue that Obi-wan wasn't particularly good at teaching, but I'd have to watch the movies again to properly analyse it.

Like warty mentioned in his relationship with his boss, there's an element of bonding via shared suffering (you see this in the military during basic training/boot camp), and the boss/master can seem ridiculously strict, but as a student, you know that he's always got your best interests at heart. As a master, you've got the right to demand the best out of your students, but you also have a responsibility to look after them.

Out of curiosity, does anybody know if the Clone Wars TV series adds anything to the Anakin/Obi-wan relationship?

[Jasdoif]

Out of curiosity, does anybody know if the Clone Wars TV series adds anything to the Anakin/Obi-wan relationship?Yes. Generally they get along as good friends and have no problems working together, like Revenge of the Sith implies. (I think, to this day, that the single worst part of the prequels was the intent to have Episodes II and III bookend the Clone Wars and gloss over the details of those three years.)

That said, it also gave me an insight I hadn't noticed before: Obi-Wan consistently puts the goals of the Jedi High Council (of which he's a member) ahead of everything else...and everyone else. This does make some sense, give Obi-Wan's own comments to Qui-Gon in Phantom Menace that Qui-Gon would be on the High Council if he wasn't so quick to defy their wishes; but those occasions where Anakin's sense of what's right clash with Obi-Wan's sense of what the Jedi Order requires are quite verbally hostile. Neither of them are particularly good at yielding to the other, it's just that normally their views line up towards the same actions so yielding doesn't even come up.

[Peelee]

Yes. Generally they get along as good friends and have no problems working together, like Revenge of the Sith implies.

Does it ever align with Obi-Wan's feelings in the original Star Wars, though? Where he fondly reminisced about Anakin being a good friend?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Does it ever align with Obi-Wan's feelings in the offiginal Star Wars, though? Where he fondly reminisced about Anakin being a good friend?

They're good friends who often wind up on the opposite side of political and philosophical questions, I think. Which is a healthy disagreement and not a friendship-breaking thing until Anakin goes flying off the slippery slope in RotS.

[Peelee]

They're good friends who often wind up on the opposite side of political and philosophical questions, I think. Which is a healthy disagreement and not a friendship-breaking thing until Anakin goes flying off the slippery slope in RotS.

See, it's not the "people who wound up on opposite sides of political and philosophical questions" that I don't see in the prequels. It's the "good friends" part.

[Cikomyr]

See, it's not the "people who wound up on opposite sides of political and philosophical questions" that I don't see in the prequels. It's the "good friends" part.

The only, and ONLY convincing sign that they were friends in the original trilogy is that Alec Guiness was such a fantastic actor and was left off the leash for his scene.

But it only plays into us being told. Which, for a scene that happens decades after the facts, is fair.

[Emperordaniel]

I've seen it said before and I'll say it here; in a lot of ways, The Clone Wars TV series did for the prequels - and the development of the characters and relationships that appeared in them - what the prequels did not. I'm still a little disappointed that it got cancelled (although at least it was lucky enough that the episodes which formed what turned out to be its final story arcs also served as a good finale for the series). :smallfrown:

[Jasdoif]

Does it ever align with Obi-Wan's feelings in the original Star Wars, though? Where he fondly reminisced about Anakin being a good friend?The whole intro to Revenge of the Sith, what with the casual general sarcasm in Coruscant space (and dragging along Coruscant ground), complete with Obi-Wan telling Anakin he deserved all the credit, was probably intended to show the tone of their relationship had changed between the movies. Personally, I presume that's because when Anakin was graduated/promoted/declared/appointed/annointed/verb-ed a Jedi Knight, Obi-Wan was no longer personally responsible for Anakin's impulsiveness or other personality "quirks"; and without the responsibility he found it easier to accept Anakin's intents and results rather than focus (or attempt to manage) his behavior.

The prequels didn't do a very good job of characterization, though. And, really, the original trilogy didn't do particularly well with it either; but the prequel trilogy's focus being Anakin means the poor quality of characterization has much more impact.


I've seen it said before and I'll say it here; in a lot of ways, The Clone Wars TV series did for the prequels - and the development of the characters and relationships that appeared in them - what the prequels did not.Very much so.

[Gnoman]

Alec Guiness was such a fantastic actor

Quite. Mix in scenes from ROTS and it almost looks planned. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN74bOubUug)

[Peelee]

I've seen it said before and I'll say it here; in a lot of ways, The Clone Wars TV series did for the prequels - and the development of the characters and relationships that appeared in them - what the prequels did not. I'm still a little disappointed that it got cancelled (although at least it was lucky enough that the episodes which formed what turned out to be its final story arcs also served as a good finale for the series). :smallfrown:

I tried to get into it, I really did. Everyone keeps saying it's great, but then problems that the Jedi should be able to easily solve with Jedi powers go unsolved or cause issues for no reason other than the Jedi conveniently forgets that they have powers. I'm not saying they should solve every issue because they are epic-level wizards, but some of the instances were ridiculous.

Also the battle droids. Dear god, the stupid freaking battle droids. I have a threshold for villainous stupidity in any given story, and any time a battle droid speaks, it instantly breaks the threshold.

[Jasdoif]

Everyone keeps saying it's greatIt is :smalltongue: Despite its various problems, I'd still rate it higher than the prequel trilogy and the original trilogy.


...but then problems that the Jedi should be able to easily solve with Jedi powers go unsolved or cause issues for no reason other than the Jedi conveniently forgets that they have powers. I'm not saying they should solve every issue because they are epic-level wizards, but some of the instances were ridiculous.To be fair, the Jedi are specifically not supposed to call on the Force to solve all their problems; doing so trivializes it into a problem-solving tool, and Jedi are theoretically supposed to be one with the Force, not above it. (And to be the fair on the other hand, with as much Star Wars media as I've seen that casually puts plot ahead of characters, I'm almost certainly more tolerant of the Clone Wars leaning heavily in the opposite direction)


Also the battle droids. Dear god, the stupid freaking battle droids. I have a threshold for villainous stupidity in any given story, and any time a battle droid speaks, it instantly breaks the threshold.This, on the other hand, simply had no excuse; It's absolutely no surprise that the battle droids speak less and less each season.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The moronic B-1 droids are pretty much the writers saying "okay these guys were useless pieces of scrap in Ep I, let's mine that for comedy purposes." Whether that writing decision was a good idea...

[MLai]

Is Star Wars Rebels any good? It seems to be a direct continuation of RotS.

My initial impression of it is that it's milking plot out of the setting dangerously close to the breaking point. I mean, they're moving closer and closer to the time of A New Hope, and yet I'm seeing more and more characters wielding blue and red lightsabers and Force-pushing enemies around. What's the point of the OT, then?

[Clertar]

Is Star Wars Rebels any good? It seems to be a direct continuation of RotS.

My initial impression of it is that it's milking plot out of the setting dangerously close to the breaking point. I mean, they're moving closer and closer to the time of A New Hope, and yet I'm seeing more and more characters wielding blue and red lightsabers and Force-pushing enemies around. What's the point of the OT, then?

The new canon could end up being the Bean to the OT's Ender's Game.

[MLai]

The new canon could end up being the Bean to the OT's Ender's Game.
That really undercuts the significance of the OT's events, then.
But I guess since it ain't making much more money for Disney anymore, their first instinct is to write it out of relevance.

[Cikomyr]

That really undercuts the significance of the OT's events, then.
But I guess since it ain't making much more money for Disney anymore, their first instinct is to write it out of relevance.

I don't see it like that. Instead, i see it as stuffing the universe sorrounding the Immaculate Origin.

It does not undercuts the OT's struggle and achievement. Instead, it fills out the universe and makes these struggles matter even more, because we see the face of the people who were touched by these miracles.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Is Star Wars Rebels any good? It seems to be a direct continuation of RotS.

My initial impression of it is that it's milking plot out of the setting dangerously close to the breaking point. I mean, they're moving closer and closer to the time of A New Hope, and yet I'm seeing more and more characters wielding blue and red lightsabers and Force-pushing enemies around. What's the point of the OT, then?

Well, it's closer to being a continuation of The Clone Wars given that it's by essentially the same staff and features a number of cameos, just picking up 15 years later.

What it's doing, though, is showing us the formation of the Rebel Alliance out of the disparate resistance groups - how tiny cells of insurgence gradually came together into the (generally) effective unified fighting force we see in the OT. It's also borrowing an element that the Legends EU fleshed out extensively (especially in the roleplaying games) - the scattered diaspora of Jedi that survived the initial Order 66 and were gradually hunted down over the course of the intervening decades by the Empire, particularly the Imperial Inquisitorius, made up of Force-Sensitives with half-cocked Dark Jedi training and a lot of fear, surprise, and fanatical devotion to the Emperor.

A lot of people object to the idea of any Force Users whatsoever existing in the period between the two film trilogies, but I have to wonder why. No matter how effective the initial ambush, there's no way to kill every Jedi all at once, and the galaxy's a big place. I have no problem suspending disbelief that it took the Empire at least 15 years to hunt down the last dregs of the Jedi, that they'd use similarly capable and equipped enforcers to do it, or that it's possible people like Obi-wan Kenobi and Grand Moff Tarkin might have been slightly overstating how thorough the genocide was. Even if 99% of the Jedi Order was killed, that's still hundreds of Jedi going into hiding and resistance throughout the galaxy, all able to train new Force Sensitives, or at least give them a heads up on their abilities as Obi-wan did for Luke, and not all of them are as good at being hermits, either.

At any rate, it's telling the same story as The Force Unleashed but ten million times less stupid, and has the nice rebels-on-the-fringe feel of the Original Trilogy and pretty decent character acting, so I'm all for it.

[Raimun]

Lightsaber, used by a force user is the best personal weapon in the whole galaxy and most likely, beyond. It offers devastating offense and solid defense... not to mention general utility for creative minds. Blasters have the advantage of reach but with such a defense and Force assisted athletic ability (like Jump and Speed) that advantage disappears rather quickly. It's not a very good idea to bring a blaster to a lightsaber fight.

As for why they don't fry each other with lightning or engage in "Gandalf vs. Saruman"-esque telekinesis brawls? That's a good question and the answer is: they do it but not all of the time.

Not everyone, not even all of the Sith know Lightning but those who do, use it time and again. Dooku and the Emperor like to use it even in the movies.

As for telekinesis? I would imagine flinging a trained force user is harder than flinging anything else of same weight. A force user can obviously resist being thrown with the Force. It's usually a better idea to use telekinesis on your surroundings, like Vader did on Cloud City, Dooku did on Geonosis or the Emperor did on the Senate.

Also, using Force requires concenration and mental stamina. Those factors kind of limit its use during combat, especially since they also need to use the Force for defense. As such, flashy Force powers (lightning, telekinesis, etc.) are used sparingly and as kind of gambits used to gain the upper hand.

[Kyberwulf]

ON the subject of Obi Wan. I think that part of the problem is Anakin is his first Padawan. I expect some failing as a teacher. (Yoda however seems like a crappy teacher.) It doesn't help that Anakin is a pretty willful guy. It would have taken someone with more experience to train him properly. Again, as someone has said. They are friends..even good griends. Not as Anne of Greene Gabals would call bosom Buddies. You can see how clearly Obi cared for Anakin in the Final dual of Episode III. That is one of the only time Obi Wan breaks his resolve and shows any emotion. When he says you where the chosen one.

Obi wan and Anakin have more of a Teacher/student friendship. Rather then a Frat brotheresque friendship. In this type of friendship. One will always be in a position of authority. Until one day, the Student becomes more knowledgeable in something.

[Calemyr]

I didn't read the entire thread, but here's my take on it:

The lightsaber itself is not tied to the force. It is, however, so absurdly deadly that it's just as likely to kill you as it is your enemies. Non-Jedi (well, non-Force users) can, with great care, use a lightsaber. People with storm-trooper training can, in fact, actually wield one almost effectively as the technique is very much the same as their own melee weapons. In the hands of a non-Jedi, it is an extremely effective cutting tool and (with proper training) a decent weapon that can win you fights with ease but also kill you almost as easily.

In the hands of a Jedi (or other Force user), however, none of the weapon's weaknesses apply. This is because one of the bedrock aspects of force sensitivity is limited precognition. That's why Anakin, despite having a human reaction time, could pilot a pod-racer and win. They can sense just a couple seconds into the future, effectively cheating in terms of reaction time. Those couple seconds, when used well, means that they have next to no risk of hurting themselves and have the ability to better block incoming strikes. More than that, they can use those seconds to actually block energy projectiles - and even redirect the shots as they see fit. To top it off, they can use their force sensitivity to select lightsaber crystals that respond optimally to them, giving them an even greater advantage than simply having a rod of shielded plasma that can cut through anything.

So:
Against another lightsaber: It's one of the only things that can compete, and the alternatives are prohibitively rare. (Note: Given the size of the setting, where they have enough exotic materials to build two deathstars and several fleets of ships and armies upon armies of robotic soldiers, you will see Cortosis pop up often enough in the more elite groups.)
Against another Force user: Force powers are great, but Force powers plus a lightsaber is better. It can more than make up for a minor deficiency in actual Force powers, and a Force user without a lightsaber is always on the defensive against a Force user with one. Add to that that a lightsaber can block some force powers as well, and the balance tips even more.
Against a blaster: HK-47 said it best. "If I see one more idiot attacking a Jedi with a blaster pistol, then I'll kill them myself." In Star Wars, sword beats gun 99% of the time.
Against an insufficiently armed target: You own their asses. Want to be merciful, take a hand. Want to kill, it only takes one shot.
Against locked doors, obstacles, and monsters: A flick of a lightsaber does the job with a fraction of the effort needed to do the same with Force powers.
When not looking to kill: Even when you no how dangerous he is, Yoda with a stick will never be as intimidating as another Jedi with a lightsaber.

Basically, they're the ultimate weapon if you have the gifts to use it safely. In every generic situation, a Force user is better off with a lightsaber than without one. Now, some narrative situations run counter to that. Star Wars Rebels shows that having a lightsaber can be very dangerous when possessing one marks you for "shoot on sight" status. Still, if you're going to get caught, a lightsaber is still a really helpful weapon and tool rolled up into one.

[Bulldog Psion]

As an answer to the question ...

"Why have the Jedi and Sith fight each other with lightsabers?"

... my only answer is ...

"Why not have the Jedi and Sith fight each other with lightsabers?" :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

As an answer to the question ...

"Why have the Jedi and Sith fight each other with lightsabers?"

... my only answer is ...

"Why not have the Jedi and Sith fight each other with lightsabers?" :smallbiggrin:

Because Yoda vs Palpatine.

[Emperordaniel]

Because Yoda vs Palpatine.

In the case of Yoda vs. Palpatine, it was combat between the most powerful living Jedi and the most powerful living Sith - and indeed, the majority of the duel was fought with the use of Force powers instead of lightsabers.

[Cikomyr]

In the case of Yoda vs. Palpatine, it was combat between the most powerful living Jedi and the most powerful living Sith - and indeed, the majority of the duel was fought with the use of Force powers instead of lightsabers.

Not really

[Peelee]

I believe you mean combat between flippy jumpy shorty frogman and magic flying electrical grandpa. All that nobility and reverence and quiet wisdom out the window, because he fight needs to look really cool.

[Emperordaniel]

Not really

I rewatched that sequence to refresh my memory, and although they do have their lightsabers out for longer than I remembered - they have their blades out for around half the duel - the duel both starts with the use of Force powers (Palpatine using Force Lightning / Yoda using Force Push) and ends with the use of Force powers (Palpatine using Force Lightning / Yoda using whatever power allows you to absorb and redirect Force Lightning), in addition to all the Force jumps and telekinesis that was going on throughout the duel.

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who didn't see a problem with & actually enjoyed Yoda in "flippy jumpy shorty frogman"-mode.

[Peelee]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who didn't see a problem with & actually enjoyed Yoda in "flippy jumpy shorty frogman"-mode.

It's mostly the difference in tone.

Original movies Jedi philosophy: Wars not make one great.
Prequel movies Jedi philosophy: Wars TOTALLY make you great, guys! Let's all be generals!

Original movies Jedi philosophy: I shall cast aside my lightsaber; this war against Vader and the Emperor will not be won with force.
Prequel movies Jedi philosophy: This weapon is your life, and remember, when in doubt, whip it out.

I probably wouldn't complain if the prequels were standalone films and the OT didn't exist.

[Jasdoif]

Original movies Jedi philosophy: Wars not make one great.
Prequel movies Jedi philosophy: Wars TOTALLY make you great, guys! Let's all be generals!

Original movies Jedi philosophy: I shall cast aside my lightsaber; this war against Vader and the Emperor will not be won with force.
Prequel movies Jedi philosophy: This weapon is your life, and remember, when in doubt, whip it out.What if the failure of the Jedi in the prequels caused a change/return in philosophy? Admittedly I was more thinking of Yoda's "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack" bit, he's seen the results of the attack part.

[Ebon_Drake]

What if the failure of the Jedi in the prequels caused a change/return in philosophy? Admittedly I was more thinking of Yoda's "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never attack" bit, he's seen the results of the attack part.

I think the prequels were trying to make that point. IIRC, there were scenes throughout the 3 movies where the Jedi were uncomfortable with the role they were playing in the Clone Wars and that it was taking them away from their philosophical beliefs. However, the storytelling in those movies is so jumbled and poor that I really can't be certain whether that was actually an intentional part of the script, or is just Lucasplaining.

[Emperordaniel]

I think the prequels were trying to make that point. IIRC, there were scenes throughout the 3 movies where the Jedi were uncomfortable with the role they were playing in the Clone Wars and that it was taking them away from their philosophical beliefs. However, the storytelling in those movies is so jumbled and poor that I really can't be certain whether that was actually an intentional part of the script, or is just Lucasplaining.

The conflict between the Jedi Order's heavy involvement in the Clone Wars and their relatively peaceful philosophy ("I was always taught that we were keepers of the peace, not warriors") was actually a significant plot point in The Clone Wars' fifth season finale, if I recall, and was brought up at other points as well. After all, one of the reasons behind starting off the Clone Wars - from Sidious's point of view - was to weaken the Order's moral integrity and turn them into hypocrites in the eyes of the public, so that once Order 66 was executed he had no problem making it look like a good thing; if the Jedi made it easier for him by volunteering themselves to lead armies, so much the better for him.

[Bulldog Psion]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who didn't see a problem with & actually enjoyed Yoda in "flippy jumpy shorty frogman"-mode.

No, you're not the only one. Yoda in full battle-mode was one of the few things in the prequels that I wholeheartedly enjoyed.

[Cikomyr]

The problem of Yoda v Palpatine is that you have a Master Manipulator and what vould arguably be considered a Trickster Mentor Archetype fight off WITH RAW POWER

[Giggling Ghast]

Because the Force gives them ranged attacks in the form of Force Push/Force Lightning, but nothing in the way of melee attacks. Also, you can't block with a blaster.

[Cikomyr]

Because the Force gives them ranged attacks in the form of Force Push/Force Lightning, but nothing in the way of melee attacks. Also, you can't block with a blaster.

If you know where the blaster bolt is going to be sufficiently well to not only block it mid-trajectory, but also send it directly back to the shooter..

Then you should be able to dodge it pretty easily without a lightsaber, and just plainly shoot at your assailants. You have an ability to divine shot that would make River Tam blush with envy.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think the prequels were trying to make that point. IIRC, there were scenes throughout the 3 movies where the Jedi were uncomfortable with the role they were playing in the Clone Wars and that it was taking them away from their philosophical beliefs. However, the storytelling in those movies is so jumbled and poor that I really can't be certain whether that was actually an intentional part of the script, or is just Lucasplaining.

Yes, this is the entire point of the Jedi storylines in the prequels (the Order fell because it drifted and was manipulated into a position far out of line with its own beliefs, and retroactively, Yoda's passivity is out of regret and not just principle).

No, I don't know how people don't get this even through the complete failure of editing.

[Cikomyr]

Yes, this is the entire point of the Jedi storylines in the prequels (the Order fell because it drifted and was manipulated into a position far out of line with its own beliefs, and retroactively, Yoda's passivity is out of regret and not just principle).

No, I don't know how people don't get this even through the complete failure of editing.

Because its not a point of the movie. The movie is not about the Jedi being thrown into something they are not.

It happened offscreen, between Ep2 and Ep3. Its a Fait Accomplit. Episode 2 was a vaccuus plotline that had no point, end, or structure. Things just happen because they happen, they accidently lead to a flashy climax that makes no more head or tails and try to distract us with bright colors.

[TeChameleon]

Y'know, speaking of the Clone Wars cartoons, I found the CGI version to be... kind of forgettable, honestly. There were a few good bits (I got kind of a chuckle out of the totally pacificistic Mandalorians), but overall, it was... sorta bland. And Ahsoka felt so tacked on. "Hey, let's give the guy that a significant chunk of the Jedi Council consider to be dangerously unstable responsibility for a Padawan. What could go wrong?"

The traditionally-animated one, spearheaded by Genndy Tartakovsky, on the other hand... my only complaint about it was that it was too short. And, despite being a ridiculously over-the-top actionfest with machinegun pacing and just generally a wild ride, it sold me on the Anakin/Obi-Wan relationship better than anything the movies ever did (side note: I love it, but the massively over-the-top action sequences aren't for everyone. The Jedi pretty much jump straight to Force Unleashed mode and don't slow down much from there).

It also, oddly, included a scene or two that directly addressed the OP's question- the Jedi use lightsabres because not using them is a lot more work, basically. There's a rather cool scene of Mace Windu briefly losing his lightsabre in the middle of a large battle (long story involving an exceptionally silly superweapon), and he simply starts beating droids to bits with his bare hands. It's clearly quite effective, but vastly slower than just dicing them with a lightsabre, and it's with obvious relief that he gets his hands on it again. And an earlier scene showcases him and Yoda basically using the Force to play Godzilla with an enormous invasion army of droids, but stopping fairly quickly since 'Force Indiscriminate Godzilla Stomp' is a) not good for their own troops, and b) really not very good for the local landscape (which, since they were on Coruscant, would be something of a concern...)

[Nerd-o-rama]

Because its not a point of the movie. The movie is not about the Jedi being thrown into something they are not.

It happened offscreen, between Ep2 and Ep3. Its a Fait Accomplit. Episode 2 was a vaccuus plotline that had no point, end, or structure. Things just happen because they happen, they accidently lead to a flashy climax that makes no more head or tails and try to distract us with bright colors.

I'm not going to call Ep II well-written in any sense, but I looked at it more as trying to duplicate Ep V's dual parallel plotlines and failing more than just being unfocused. I also think that while the Council's problems are a background storyline compared to Anakin's and Obi-wan's, you really see throughout all three prequels that 1) the Jedi are not the perfect paragons that Obi-wan reminisced about, 2) they're vastly unprepared for the situations that unfold before them, and 3) basically everything they actively do is the result of Palpatine playing them like a space harpsichord, directly or indirectly.

[ace rooster]

"Hey, let's give the guy that a significant chunk of the Jedi Council consider to be dangerously unstable responsibility for a Padawan. What could go wrong?"


Worst case scenario, Things go horribly wrong and you lose an extra Padawan. If you think that Anakin is dangerously unstable and incredibly powerful then in this eventuality one Padawan is probably the least of your worries. Best case scenario is that Anakin puts more consideration into his actions because somebody is learning from them, and the responsibility acts as a stabilising influence. What could go wrong is balanced against what could go well.

[Cikomyr]

I'm not going to call Ep II well-written in any sense, but I looked at it more as trying to duplicate Ep V's dual parallel plotlines and failing more than just being unfocused. I also think that while the Council's problems are a background storyline compared to Anakin's and Obi-wan's, you really see throughout all three prequels that 1) the Jedi are not the perfect paragons that Obi-wan reminisced about, 2) they're vastly unprepared for the situations that unfold before them, and 3) basically everything they actively do is the result of Palpatine playing them like a space harpsichord, directly or indirectly.

What is the driving story of Episode II? What is the thing that lay out its core story structure?

The discovery of the Clone Army? Nah. It happens by accident, and once discovered is just pushed aside as an oddity.

The driving plotline is the investigation of the attempted assassinations on Senator Amidala. Thats it. Thatd the thing that drives the overall plot, its the excuse you get for:

- Sending Obiwan on Kamino so he discovers the clone army
- sending Obiwan on Geonosis so he discover the Droid army
- sending Padme/Anakin away so he gets distracted by Nathalie Portman, get visions and go to Tatooine.

From there, plot A sends a distress signal to Plot B, and they join back for the Finale. The assassin of Padme gets killed casually in a rather forgettable moment, the why is completely left aside. The very driving plot of 70% of the movie is just dismissed with a 10 second action scene and never adressed again.

And we have a villain who is introduced 60% into the movie, with no motivation. Background. Plan. Plot. Point.

[Calemyr]

It should be noted that, according the Clone Wars cartoons, Anakin Skywalker was an absurdly effective soldier. He's a crap Jedi (doesn't follow orders, way too emotional, enjoys combat entirely too much), but if there's a war on, he's exactly what you need. Of course, on the flip side of things, he's exactly what you don't want on the council. Much like Qui-Gon Jinn, Anakin was never going to be a Master. Unfortunately, by the end of the war he had enough medals to weigh down a freighter and all the battle experience of a front-line general, which made their refusal to let him become a Master seem that much more petty and unreasonable - thus leaving him bitter and angry and easy for Sidious to manipulate.

It should also be noted that Ahsoka did exactly what the council wanted her to. She kept Anakin tethered to the council, because of his sense of responsibility for her. She also proved to be a very effective Jedi in her own right, albeit similarly tainted by disobedience and passion. Had she been given the chance, she'd certainly have been rejected as a Master as quickly as Anakin, but she was a wonderfully valuable asset during the war. Until she was not, that is.

[Cikomyr]

It should be noted that, according the Clone Wars cartoons, Anakin Skywalker was an absurdly effective soldier. He's a crap Jedi (doesn't follow orders, way too emotional, enjoys combat entirely too much), but if there's a war on, he's exactly what you need. Of course, on the flip side of things, he's exactly what you don't want on the council. Much like Qui-Gon Jinn, Anakin was never going to be a Master. Unfortunately, by the end of the war he had enough medals to weigh down a freighter and all the battle experience of a front-line general, which made their refusal to let him become a Master seem that much more petty and unreasonable - thus leaving him bitter and angry and easy for Sidious to manipulate.

Now, see, that is damn fine. It makes the overall story stronger and deeper. I like the implications, and where it was leading.

That does not excuse the bad movies.

Just make the overall Prequels to be the Clone War series, and you have a quality story that is almost completr right off the bat.

[Calemyr]

Now, see, that is damn fine. It makes the overall story stronger and deeper. I like the implications, and where it was leading.

That does not excuse the bad movies.

Just make the overall Prequels to be the Clone War series, and you have a quality story that is almost completr right off the bat.

No, it doesn't excuse the prequels at all. The fact is that someone had to come in with a "kid's show" in order to fill the massive gaping holes in a trilogy that spent hour explaining everything we didn't want explained and gave us lightsaber battles instead of character development.

Clone Wars (especially the last couple seasons) is surprisingly good. Yoda gets a number of glimpses into the future, but never enough context to realize their ace general is destined to be voiced by James Earl Jones. A few clone troopers discover a chip in their brain that makes them instantly drop into a brainwashed "kill the Jedi" state, but most die before they can spread the word. The look of horror on their faces when they realize how easily they can be forced to kill the generals they love and respect... Yeah, I don't think I'll see the Prequel Trilogy again any time soon, but I certainly won't see the Order 66 scene the same way again.

[Yora]

you really see throughout all three prequels that 1) the Jedi are not the perfect paragons that Obi-wan reminisced about, 2) they're vastly unprepared for the situations that unfold before them, and 3) basically everything they actively do is the result of Palpatine playing them like a space harpsichord, directly or indirectly.

Yes, it is easy to see. But was that intended? Are the Jedi meant to be incompetent fools? And did George Lucas want us to spot that by ourselves without the movies actually saying it openly at any point? This seems way too subtle for these movies.

[druid91]

I'd like to take this time to address everyone claiming Jedi prefer lightsabers because of their non-lethal capacity.

Blasters can be set for stun.

That is all.

That was a relatively new thing that the empire invented. Bizarrely enough. Hence why you never hear anyone talking about blasters set for stun in the prequels.

Also it has massive medical side effects.

[Jasdoif]

Yes, it is easy to see. But was that intended?If it's easy to see, it must been have intentionally designed that way at some level. It's exceedingly rare for things to line up in a noticeable fashion accidentally.

[Emperordaniel]

That was a relatively new thing that the empire invented. Bizarrely enough. Hence why you never hear anyone talking about blasters set for stun in the prequels.

Also it has massive medical side effects.

Nitpick - the first appearance of the "stun" setting was in The Clone Wars' third season, so it technically wasn't invented by the Empire... :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

If it's easy to see, it must been have intentionally designed that way at some level. It's exceedingly rare for things to line up in a noticeable fashion accidentally.

Yeag, but there's a difference between intentionally designed and well-designed, and it also matters. For instance, Anakin's fall - he was still adhering to the Jedi ways of not executing prisoners, not being judge, jury and executioner, demanding the arrest of Palpatine so he could be put on trial, demanding that they be held to a higher moral authority... and thirty seconds later, says, "welp, time to go murder a bunch of children."

It doesn't matter how thought-out the process is if they bungle the execution beyond any reasonable measure.

And yes, i know part of that was his own selfish desire to save Palpatine as well, but look - if a good or goodish character is going to slaughter a whole classroom of five-year-olds, there had better be a damn reason to do so. Hell, "there had better be a damn reason to do so" can sum up my complaints for the vast majority of prequel isssues, as well as a few Ep. VII issues.

[Yora]

I thought he fell at some point between Episode 1 and 2.

[Jasdoif]

Yeag, but there's a difference between intentionally designed and well-designed, and it also matters. For instance, Anakin's fall - he was still adhering to the Jedi ways of not executing prisoners, not being judge, jury and executioner, demanding the arrest of Palpatine so he could be put on trial, demanding that they be held to a higher moral authority... and thirty seconds later, says, "welp, time to go murder a bunch of children."

It doesn't matter how thought-out the process is if they bungle the execution beyond any reasonable measure.The distinction is vital, yes. It's the difference between "should've shown this part you thought about better" and "should've thought about this part". And they have entirely different methods of resolution....So confusing one for the other is a setback.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Okay, did other people watch a different set of prequels wherein Anakin Skywalker did not spend the entirety of Episodes II and III spiraling into steadily less rational violence as a result of impulsive emotional decisions and a complete lack of a capable emotional support network outside of the woman he was obsessed with? Because that's the only way I can get the whole general zeitgeist of Anakin's "fall" being abrupt. I mean, it got taken to ludicrous depths after he did the unforgivable and helped murder a Jedi Master, but as someone who's been caught in my own spiral of bad decision-making before, it strikes me as melodrama more than unrealism or poor writing.

[Kantaki]

Okay, did other people watch a different set of prequels wherein Anakin Skywalker did not spend the entirety of Episodes II and III spiraling into steadily less rational violence as a result of impulsive emotional decisions and a complete lack of a capable emotional support network outside of the woman he was obsessed with? Because that's the only way I can get the whole general zeitgeist of Anakin's "fall" being abrupt. I mean, it got taken to ludicrous depths after he did the unforgivable and helped murder a Jedi Master, but as someone who's been caught in my own spiral of bad decision-making before, it strikes me as melodrama more than unrealism or poor writing.

Considering the Tusken-village in Episode II I agree. Anakin always tended to more extreme (re)actions. That his fall spiraled completely out of control in Episode III isn't that surprising. Assisting inthe murder of Mace Windu just accelerated his development.
The question is if it would have been better or worse if the Council had stuck to the decision not to train him.
(Why did they change their minds again? The only thing that changed was that the guy who dragged the kid off his homeworld died. Well, and Obi was willing to leave to fulfil his masters dying wish, but so what? Let him leave and train the boy on some backwater world.)

[Emperordaniel]

The question is if it would have been better or worse if the Council had stuck to the decision not to train him.
(Why did they change their minds again? The only thing that changed was that the guy who dragged the kid off his homeworld died. Well, and Obi was willing to leave to fulfil his masters dying wish, but so what? Let him leave and train the boy on some backwater world.)

Another thing that had changed was that it was now clear that the Sith were making a resurgence after a millennium of being believed extinct; under those circumstances, the Council may have believed it better to keep the boy - who was potentially their Chosen One - training under their supervision rather than rejecting him from the Order and risking him falling into the hands of the newly-returned Sith.

[Kantaki]

Another thing that had changed was that it was now clear that the Sith were making a resurgence after a millennium of being believed extinct; under those circumstances, the Council may have believed it better to keep the boy - who was potentially their Chosen One - training under their supervision rather than rejecting him from the Order and risking him falling into the hands of the newly-returned Sith.

:smallamused:Funny how that turned out in the end:smallamused: Maybe letting Obi leave with Anakin and train him while travelling the galaxy would have worked better. We will never know.:smallamused:
:smallredface:But yeah, I kinda forgot the revelation of the Sith. With that the decision makes more sense.

[Jasdoif]

Okay, did other people watch a different set of prequels wherein Anakin Skywalker did not spend the entirety of Episodes II and III spiraling into steadily less rational violence as a result of impulsive emotional decisions and a complete lack of a capable emotional support network outside of the woman he was obsessed with? Because that's the only way I can get the whole general zeitgeist of Anakin's "fall" being abrupt. I mean, it got taken to ludicrous depths after he did the unforgivable and helped murder a Jedi Master, but as someone who's been caught in my own spiral of bad decision-making before, it strikes me as melodrama more than unrealism or poor writing.Oh I agree, but the step of his fall in Palpatine's office after Mace Windu died was quite abrupt. Anakin verbally working out some of the thoughts in his mind would've improved the flow of the scene quite a bit.


Well, and Obi was willing to leave to fulfil his masters dying wish, but so what? Let him leave and train the boy on some backwater world.Keep in mind, Obi-Wan said that to Yoda...in the same conversation where Yoda told him the Council agreed that Anakin should be trained. The Council didn't know about Obi-Wan's departure threat when they made their decision.

[Giggling Ghast]

If you know where the blaster bolt is going to be sufficiently well to not only block it mid-trajectory, but also send it directly back to the shooter.

Yes, because that would be way easier to do than just raising a sword.

Also, you missed my point about Jedi lacking melee attacks aside from kicks and punches, which a souped-up battle droid or Wookie or Rancor would just laugh off.

[Peelee]

Okay, did other people watch a different set of prequels wherein Anakin Skywalker did not spend the entirety of Episodes II and III spiraling into steadily less rational violence as a result of impulsive emotional decisions and a complete lack of a capable emotional support network outside of the woman he was obsessed with? Because that's the only way I can get the whole general zeitgeist of Anakin's "fall" being abrupt. I mean, it got taken to ludicrous depths after he did the unforgivable and helped murder a Jedi Master, but as someone who's been caught in my own spiral of bad decision-making before, it strikes me as melodrama more than unrealism or poor writing.

Yeah, i didn't see that in the movies at all. I saw an inordinate act of revenge against the sand people for torturing and killing his mother, and then fighting in a war against enemy combatants, the execution of the leader of said enemy combatants, and then murdering 30 kids.

Am I missing anything? Because it seems like revenge, defense, revenge, toddlerholocaust.

[druid91]

Nitpick - the first appearance of the "stun" setting was in The Clone Wars' third season, so it technically wasn't invented by the Empire... :smalltongue:

I don't count the Clone Wars cartoons for anything.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah, i didn't see that in the movies at all. I saw an inordinate act of revenge against the sand people for torturing and killing his mother, and then fighting in a war against enemy combatants, the execution of the leader of said enemy combatants, and then murdering 30 kids.

Am I missing anything? Because it seems like revenge, defense, revenge, toddlerholocaust.

I believe the point of murdering sand people children was to show that Anakin is an amoral character whose world view is almost entirely shaped by the people around him. Hooked up with Obi and he is a nastily sarcastic person who basically acts like a more aggressive than average jedi. Shackle him to a sith and he is more than happy to kill anyone he is pointed at. Anakin doesn't have a moral compass, he is completely reliant on being controlled by others.

The problem is they never addressed this as the crux of his character. His PTSD from being raised a slave and then picked up by an organization which effectively deprives their members of free will and emotional responses should have been the center of the story, along with his caring about politics because he feels like it will make the people he loves love him back.

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, i didn't see that in the movies at all. I saw an inordinate act of revenge against the sand people for torturing and killing his mother, and then fighting in a war against enemy combatants, the execution of the leader of said enemy combatants, and then murdering 30 kids.

Am I missing anything? Because it seems like revenge, defense, revenge, toddlerholocaust.You may have missed how he acted conflicted about murdering the Sand People, was kind of hesitant about executing Dooku, and didn't blink at murdering the kids.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Also, for better or worse, Sand People are basically the last time a fantasy series played Always Chaotic Evil with no self-awareness. Murdering them was an act of immoral, pointless vengeance, but it was also technically doing the rest of Tatooine a small favor. Same deal with executing Dooku, just on a larger scale and with much less remorse. Also, playing directly into Sidious covering his tracks, but as Tvtyrant says...


I believe the point of murdering sand people children was to show that Anakin is an amoral character whose world view is almost entirely shaped by the people around him. Hooked up with Obi and he is a nastily sarcastic person who basically acts like a more aggressive than average jedi. Shackle him to a sith and he is more than happy to kill anyone he is pointed at. Anakin doesn't have a moral compass, he is completely reliant on being controlled by others.

The problem is they never addressed this as the crux of his character. His PTSD from being raised a slave and then picked up by an organization which effectively deprives their members of free will and emotional responses should have been the center of the story, along with his caring about politics because he feels like it will make the people he loves love him back.

I agree with this 100%, and I believe it is shown in the movie without being told. However, it could definitely use a good deal more focus, if not for the sake of fans who hate thinking critically about their feature-length action figure commercials, then for the sake of giving the films some emotional coherency that was sorely, sorely lacking.

[warty goblin]

Yeah, i didn't see that in the movies at all. I saw an inordinate act of revenge against the sand people for torturing and killing his mother, and then fighting in a war against enemy combatants, the execution of the leader of said enemy combatants, and then murdering 30 kids.

Am I missing anything? Because it seems like revenge, defense, revenge, toddlerholocaust.

I think the important through-line for Anakin is that he's pretty much entirely motivated by a need to protect himself from emotional harm, and will react very, very violently when something threatens that. The other major point of II and III (in particular) is that Palpatine plays Anakin like the devil plays the fiddle. The important point in Anakin killing the sandpeople in II is that it shows he will do terrible things when he's hurt - and he clearly knows afterwords that he's crossed a line. In III we learn he told Palpatine this, but presumably not anybody else. The major point in Anakin killing Dooku is that Palpatine tells him to, even though he knows he's not supposed to. Since Anakin likes and respects Palpatine, doing something Palpatine doesn't like is painful for him, and Anakin shies away from emotional difficulty like it's red hot steel. Killing Dooku forces Anakin deeper into Palpatine's clutches, since he's now guilty of a crime on Palpatine's behalf, and further alienates him from the Jedi.

The chunk of the movie between the deaths of Dooku and Mace Windu are pretty much about one thing; Anakin being put under enormous emotional strain, having no recourse except Palpatine, trying desperately to split the difference between the Jedi and Palpatine, and finally being thrown between the devil and the deep blue sea when he needs to choose either Padme or the Jedi. At this point both his choices (the whole secret wife thing) and Palpatine's manipulations have isolated him from the Jedi, so he chooses Padme, and in doing so chooses Palpatine. Note that even when he attacks Mace, he explicitly doesn't kill; he's still trying to have it all even though at that point it's pretty obvious he can't.

Once Mace Windu is dead, Anakin has lost any hope of being a Jedi; which is something he's attempted to become for literally most of his life. Padme is the only thing he's got left, and it's already been established that he'll commit terrible crimes when somebody he loves is threatened, and when Palpatine tells him to. So Palpatine tells him that the only way to save his wife - the only emotional holdfast he has left - is to go kill the younglings. The last two movies have done everything to show that this order comes from somebody he cannot easily refuse and is bound multiple times over in crime, and hits the most vulnerable aspect of his personality; of course he does it.

This also explains why he Force chokes Padme on Mustafar. He's done all this for her, sacrificed his life as a Jed, reset the galactic government so the good people can get things done, and she throws it all in his face. He's also at this point hip deep in blood, on a huge emotional high from unleashing years of pent up frustration and rage, and with so much murder in his immediate past that if he slows down and thinks, he's doomed. So he attacks Padme, because she threatens to puncture the bubble of delusion he's floating in, and maybe because attacking anybody who disagrees with him is just what he does now.

Now if you don't like the prequels, the logical response to this line of argument is that it doesn't show us any of this. I think they do, they just never have a moment where the action stops and they explain that this is what they've shown. Thinking along these lines also means taking Darth Vader out of the 'cool' column, and tossing him into the 'emotionally unstable jerk' column, which is a fairly major rewrite in the feel of the OT. Since I never had any enormous allegiance to the OT, this isn't a particularly high bar for me to clear, but it really is for some people.

[Jasdoif]

Thinking along these lines also means taking Darth Vader out of the 'cool' column, and tossing him into the 'emotionally unstable jerk' column, which is a fairly major rewrite in the feel of the OT.I think it's more complicated than that. As you mentioned, Anakin's primary motivation was protecting Padme (in the way he had failed to protect his mother). With that gone too...what was left? With Anakin's primary motivation ending in failure, is Darth Vader really the same person as Anakin was? Or did Darth Vader cauterize Anakin's emotionality (and the corresponding instability) to protect himself from ongoing emotional harm over the twenty intervening years between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope, making Darth Vader into the cold force of determination we see in the original trilogy?

[Frozen_Feet]

Anakin Skywalker pretty much dies as a person at the end of Revenge of the Sith. We don't see him again untill Return of the Jedi, chronologically speaking.

I mean, there was a study of people with loved ones suffering Alzheimer's, and other diseases which destroy memory and personality. They were trying to discern when a person "becomes someone else" in the eyes of those who know them best.

Turned out a person can change a lot and forget a lot as long as their basic moral character remains the same. Once their moral nature changes, though? They might as well be dead to most people.

By the time Anakin chokes Padme, at the very least, his prior moral backbone has been shattered. When he's left to burn by Kenobi, his body is shattered. And when Palpatine confronts him with what's happened, his emotions are shattered. He really is a walking corpse past that.

You know. From a certain point of view. :smallamused:

[Emperordaniel]

I think it's more complicated than that. As you mentioned, Anakin's primary motivation was protecting Padme (in the way he had failed to protect his mother). With that gone too...what was left? With Anakin's primary motivation ending in failure, is Darth Vader really the same person as Anakin was? Or did Darth Vader cauterize Anakin's emotionality (and the corresponding instability) to protect himself from ongoing emotional harm over the twenty intervening years between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope, making Darth Vader into the cold force of determination we see in the original trilogy?

One of the final scenes from the Revenge of the Sith novelization (the scene where Vader awakes in his new armor) summed it up quite well for me, and is probably my favorite scene in the book:

...You remember the furnace of Vader's fury, and the black hatred of seizing her throat to silence her lying mouth—

And there is one blazing moment in which you finally understand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker.

That it was all you. Is you.
Only you.
You did it.
You killed her.

You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself...

It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith—

Because now your self is all you will ever have.

And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.

In the end, you do not even want to.


In the end, the shadow is all you have left. Because the shadow understands you, the shadow forgives you, the shadow gathers you unto itself—

And within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame.
This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker...






...Forever...

[Nerd-o-rama]

The novelization is generally considered to surpass the movie in quality by a wide margin specifically because of intense, emotionally-descriptive scenes like that, or as Warty said, "a moment where the action stops and they explain that this is what they've shown". George Lucas's writing, direction, and editing didn't get across the emotional content of the film effectively, but Stover's narration does in a very gut-punch prose-poetry sort of way.

[Peelee]

One of the final scenes from the Revenge of the Sith novelization (the scene where Vader awakes in his new armor) summed it up quite well for me, and is probably my favorite scene in the book:

...You remember the furnace of Vader's fury, and the black hatred of seizing her throat to silence her lying mouth—

And there is one blazing moment in which you finally understand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker.

That it was all you. Is you.
Only you.
You did it.
You killed her.

You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself...

It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith—

Because now your self is all you will ever have.

And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.

In the end, you do not even want to.


In the end, the shadow is all you have left. Because the shadow understands you, the shadow forgives you, the shadow gathers you unto itself—

And within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame.
This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker...






...Forever...

Damn, that's good. I generally don't read the novelizations, so all I got was a really bad, emotionless "NOOOOOOOOO!"

[jere7my]

I don't count the Clone Wars cartoons for anything.

That's up to you, but they are definitively canon.

[MLai]

This also explains why he Force chokes Padme on Mustafar. He's done all this for her, sacrificed his life as a Jed, reset the galactic government so the good people can get things done, and she throws it all in his face. He's also at this point hip deep in blood, on a huge emotional high from unleashing years of pent up frustration and rage, and with so much murder in his immediate past that if he slows down and thinks, he's doomed. So he attacks Padme, because she threatens to puncture the bubble of delusion he's floating in, and maybe because attacking anybody who disagrees with him is just what he does now.
You're just making me hate Lucas more, you do realize?

Anyone except Lucas can practically just transcribe your paragraph into lines for Hayden Christensen, and the movie scene would immediately have 100x more impact. I even have faith that Christensen would have nailed it, and he wouldn't have gone into self-exile after making this movie. Poor guy.

[Peelee]

You're just making me hate Lucas more, you do realize?

Anyone except Lucas can practically just transcribe your paragraph into lines for Hayden Christensen, and the movie scene would immediately have 100x more impact. I even have faith that Christensen would have nailed it, and he wouldn't have gone into self-exile after making this movie. Poor guy.

Self-exile would have been preferable to Jumper.

[warty goblin]

You're just making me hate Lucas more, you do realize?

Anyone except Lucas can practically just transcribe your paragraph into lines for Hayden Christensen, and the movie scene would immediately have 100x more impact. I even have faith that Christensen would have nailed it, and he wouldn't have gone into self-exile after making this movie. Poor guy.

But that's pretty much what both Anakin and Padme say in that scene. OK, Anakin doesn't stop to deliver a soliloquy on his emotional state RE: child murder, but the entire arc of the conversation in the movie is pretty much exactly as I spelled it out. I guess he does phrase it as the Jedi turning against him, but it's not like you can stop in the middle of your justification for child-slaughter and make out the people you've just butchered were actually good guys you still wish you could hang out with.

[MLai]

But that's pretty much what both Anakin and Padme say in that scene. OK, Anakin doesn't stop to deliver a soliloquy on his emotional state RE: child murder, but the entire arc of the conversation in the movie is pretty much exactly as I spelled it out..
I rewatched that scene, and it was as flat as I remembered it. Sigh. His "I will overthrow the emperor" line was out of nowhere, uncharacteristic, and broke what little immersion I tried to hold on to. It was a great line for Darth Vader, who has had time to stew under Palpatine for decades. It was not the right line for Anakin, who was trying to rationalize what he's done by telling himself how great and wrothy Palpatine is. Classic example of poorly-aimed homage.

Something about what you wrote just resonates with me better. But then we're comparing to something Lucas wrote, so it's no surprise.

"I sacrificed my life as a Jedi. I reset the government so the good people can get things done. I've done all this.. for YOU! And you throw it all in my face!!"

[Wardog]

Force ability was tied to lightsaber use. One could clumsily slash, but lack of blade weight combined with saber handle vibration made it really dangerous for someone without Force-user reflexes and awareness.
...

Sources:
There's a novel in the Dark Nest trilogy where a Ewok (I think) is spun around when using a lightsaber in null-gee. When Luke meets Mara Jade, she uses his blade, and there's commentary that one must be Force sensitive to use one safely/effectively.


I thought a lightsabre was supposed to be an elegent weapon from a more civilized age - not a shaking, badly-balanced death-trap.

When Han turned on Luke's sabre in ESB, he seemed slightly awkward. I presume some EU writer saw this, and thought the most sensible explanation was "lightsabres are inherently clumsy, and impossible to use effectively if you're not a force user", rather than just "he's never used it before, his hands are cold, and he's trying to use a sword as a knife".

(Also, "the blade is weightless, all the mass is in the hilt" should make it a very quick, easy-to-use weapon).


In any case:
Assuming Finn doesn't turn out to be Force-sensitive, TFA shows that you don't need Force powers to fight with a light sabre. You only need them to beat another Force-user with a light sabre.

So hopefully that aspect of the EU has been retconed.

[Emperordaniel]

Assuming Finn doesn't turn out to be Force-sensitive, TFA shows that you don't need Force powers to fight with a light sabre. You only need them to beat another Force-user with a light sabre.

So hopefully that aspect of the EU has been retconed.

Well, Finn only fought in melee with the lightsaber - I'd assume that if FN-2199 didn't stop to fight him in melee and just shot him instead, Finn wouldn't have been able to block the blast in time (assuming he isn't Force-sensitive) :smalltongue:

[Forum Explorer]

Well, Finn only fought in melee with the lightsaber - I'd assume that if FN-2199 didn't stop to fight him in melee and just shot him instead, Finn wouldn't have been able to block the blast in time (assuming he isn't Force-sensitive) :smalltongue:

I thought that stormtroopers name was TR-8-TOR :smallwink: :smalltongue:

[SouthpawSoldier]

Weightless blades are quicker, but the lack of weight means one lacks the intuitive feel for the blade. Compare swinging an actual blade/bar/pipe/stick with waving a flashlight. It's a lot easier or more instinctive to know the orientation of the solid object than the beam of light.

I think the "elegant weapon" commentary refers to the Jedi association, rather than inherent properties of the weapon. Then again, New Hope didn't dig too deeply into the lore or mechanics of the universe.


Due to the weightlessness of plasma and the strong gyroscopic effect generated by it, lightsabers required a great deal of strength and dexterity to wield, and it was extremely difficult—and dangerous—for the untrained to attempt using.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber/Legends

[Peelee]

Also, with a completely weightless blade, once two sabers crossed paths, wouldn't all the force and torque be exerted on a point outside the actual object's mass, and thus feel very strange and awkward? I can't quite put my finger on the actual term, so I'm sure my physics explanation here is crap, but i think I'm getting my meaning across.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Also I feel like I should point out that Obi-wan Kenobi was an enormous snob with a very nostalgic view of the Jedi organization and way of life compared to the very human(oid) and flawed group of people we see in the prequels. Even in the middle of the Clone Wars he had a view rose-tinted and idealistic view of what it meant to be a Jedi Knight. He's also prone to rather creative interpretations of his own personal history.

What I'm saying is maybe take his descriptions as mildly poetic instead of cold hard literal fact like literally everyone involved in creating Legends did.

[Jayngfet]

Also I feel like I should point out that Obi-wan Kenobi was an enormous snob with a very nostalgic view of the Jedi organization and way of life compared to the very human(oid) and flawed group of people we see in the prequels. Even in the middle of the Clone Wars he had a view rose-tinted and idealistic view of what it meant to be a Jedi Knight. He's also prone to rather creative interpretations of his own personal history.

What I'm saying is maybe take his descriptions as mildly poetic instead of cold hard literal fact like literally everyone involved in creating Legends did.

Obi Wan is clearly a cynic compared to the other jedi. The plot only moves forward because he has a heavy distrust of politics and is willing to believe that the jedi and their archives can be wrong.

Which is one of the biggest problems of the prequels honestly. The guy who waxed poetic about idealistic crusades turns out to be a horrible cynic and his horrible cynicism turns out to be correct every time it's displayed. Meanwhile the future galactic dictator has to play the trusting idealist who's actual idealistic crusade turns out to be badly intentioned, solitary, and fails miserably even in big events.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I dunno, I'd call both Obi-wan and Anakin idealists, but for different ideals. Obi-wan unquestionably believes in the principles of the Jedi Order and the Republic, he's just enough of a realist to recognize that the Jedi Council are only humanoid and can make mistakes. Anakin, meanwhile, wholeheartedly believes in a sort of meritocratic noblesse obligé - the powerful's responsibility to defend the less powerful, although he usually applies this to people he cares about personally an order of magnitude more than anyone else. And if the powerful can not fulfill their obligations to the less powerful, well then obviously what they need is more power...

[Tyndmyr]

Weightless blades are quicker, but the lack of weight means one lacks the intuitive feel for the blade. Compare swinging an actual blade/bar/pipe/stick with waving a flashlight. It's a lot easier or more instinctive to know the orientation of the solid object than the beam of light.

I think the "elegant weapon" commentary refers to the Jedi association, rather than inherent properties of the weapon. Then again, New Hope didn't dig too deeply into the lore or mechanics of the universe.


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber/Legends

Not really. Plenty of swords have a center of gravity that is actually within the handle. If memory serves, *average* is only a couple of inches in front of the handle, Cog within the handle is well within the realms of normality.

And, plenty of historical swords were quite light. Heavier swords are NOT normally considered easier to handle, lighter swords are.

Really, it's just kind of an odd explanation if you've ever mucked about with blades at all.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Not really. Plenty of swords have a center of gravity that is actually within the handle. If memory serves, *average* is only a couple of inches in front of the handle, Cog within the handle is well within the realms of normality.

And, plenty of historical swords were quite light. Heavier swords are NOT normally considered easier to handle, lighter swords are.

Really, it's just kind of an odd explanation if you've ever mucked about with blades at all.

And no one who published their headcanon as Official Lore by landing a Lucasfilm novel contract ever had, probably.

I think the honest answer to "why do only Jedi use lightsabers" has less to do with the actual difficulty of using the blade and much more to do with the actual and perceived danger of waving around a coherent beam of instant dismemberment plasma in front of one's face as a fighting style. A lightsaber could be the easiest weapon in the world to use and you'd still be an idiot for trying to do it without dedicating years of training and some advanced precognitive abilities to making sure you don't lose a nose the first time someone manages to stop your swing.

[Frozen_Feet]

If you think normal lightsabers are bad, think about the double-end ones like Darth Maul used.

It's a staff-like weapon, and Maul's fighting style is based on bojutsu if I recall right. Problem? Any normal use of a staff-like weapon involves the other end passing very close to your own body and some basic techniques require the other end to touch your skin. But in this case, the other end is red-hot plasma.

[Bohandas]

In the case of Yoda vs. Palpatine, it was combat between the most powerful living Jedi and the most powerful living Sith - and indeed, the majority of the duel was fought with the use of Force powers instead of lightsabers.

I agree. I don't know what the hell these other people are talking about.

[BlueHerring]

If you think normal lightsabers are bad, think about the double-end ones like Darth Maul used.

It's a staff-like weapon, and Maul's fighting style is based on bojutsu if I recall right. Problem? Any normal use of a staff-like weapon involves the other end passing very close to your own body and some basic techniques require the other end to touch your skin. But in this case, the other end is red-hot plasma.

Which is why the entirety of your fighting style either involves not lighting up one end, or lighting up both ends... and flailing like a fish out of water.

[TeChameleon]

I still think the stupid crossguard thingies on Kylo Ren's sabre are the worst yet, though... one practice swing and your sword and hand are flying in different directions. And the sword will probably remove your head on the way by :smallyuk:

That and if your opponent managed to lock blades with you, all they'd have to do is slide down your blade until their own beam of plasma hit the beam splitter that was making those stupid little protrusions (which were never actually used for anything over the entire course of the movie... at least Darth Maul's stupid double lightsabre used both ends!) and who knows what that would do... the best case scenario (at least for the poor imbecile using the moronic crossguard lightsabre) would probably be that their blade would suddenly flail around in a bunch of random directions, and, if you were very, very, very lucky, would just kill them instead of both of you.

Aha- found the clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF3ocZu4cZo) I mentioned earlier. Mace Windu demonstrates that while a Jedi Master is perfectly capable of destroying everything in sight with no lightsabre, it's a lot more work, and a drastic reduction in his defensive capabilities.

[warty goblin]

I still think the stupid crossguard thingies on Kylo Ren's sabre are the worst yet, though... one practice swing and your sword and hand are flying in different directions. And the sword will probably remove your head on the way by :smallyuk:

That and if your opponent managed to lock blades with you, all they'd have to do is slide down your blade until their own beam of plasma hit the beam splitter that was making those stupid little protrusions (which were never actually used for anything over the entire course of the movie... at least Darth Maul's stupid double lightsabre used both ends!) and who knows what that would do... the best case scenario (at least for the poor imbecile using the moronic crossguard lightsabre) would probably be that their blade would suddenly flail around in a bunch of random directions, and, if you were very, very, very lucky, would just kill them instead of both of you.

As I recall Kylo used the crossguard to stab Finn during one of those really long strong-to-strong shoving match binds movie fighters are so fond of. Which was almost a good move, but he'd have been better off winding and slicing through the bind.

[Kantaki]

I still think the stupid crossguard thingies on Kylo Ren's sabre are the worst yet, though... one practice swing and your sword and hand are flying in different directions. And the sword will probably remove your head on the way by :smallyuk:

That and if your opponent managed to lock blades with you, all they'd have to do is slide down your blade until their own beam of plasma hit the beam splitter that was making those stupid little protrusions (which were never actually used for anything over the entire course of the movie... at least Darth Maul's stupid double lightsabre used both ends!) and who knows what that would do... the best case scenario (at least for the poor imbecile using the moronic crossguard lightsabre) would probably be that their blade would suddenly flail around in a bunch of random directions, and, if you were very, very, very lucky, would just kill them instead of both of you.

Aha- found the clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF3ocZu4cZo) I mentioned earlier. Mace Windu demonstrates that while a Jedi Master is perfectly capable of destroying everything in sight with no lightsabre, it's a lot more work, and a drastic reduction in his defensive capabilities.

Didn't Kylo Ren (That name... Sure, „Ben” doesn't exactly scream „dread lord of vile darkness”, but „Kylo” is even worse. Not that the name doesn't fit its bearer.) stab Finn (or at least someone) with one of those handguard-blade-thingies? Or tried too? I think I remember something in that direction happened. The design is still suicidal, but it isn't entirely useless. Not to mention the intimidation factor. The kid needs every bonus he can get.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I still think the stupid crossguard thingies on Kylo Ren's sabre are the worst yet, though... one practice swing and your sword and hand are flying in different directions. And the sword will probably remove your head on the way by :smallyuk:

That and if your opponent managed to lock blades with you, all they'd have to do is slide down your blade until their own beam of plasma hit the beam splitter that was making those stupid little protrusions (which were never actually used for anything over the entire course of the movie... at least Darth Maul's stupid double lightsabre used both ends!) and who knows what that would do... the best case scenario (at least for the poor imbecile using the moronic crossguard lightsabre) would probably be that their blade would suddenly flail around in a bunch of random directions, and, if you were very, very, very lucky, would just kill them instead of both of you.

Aha- found the clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF3ocZu4cZo) I mentioned earlier. Mace Windu demonstrates that while a Jedi Master is perfectly capable of destroying everything in sight with no lightsabre, it's a lot more work, and a drastic reduction in his defensive capabilities.

Also, aside from the use in a lock that actually gets demonstrated in the movie (sorry you missed that part), why does everyone assume that the blade emitters or foci are inside the flanged parts of the hilt and not the central shaft? Or that the hilt isn't made out of a lightsaber-resistant material, of which Legends had like four and newcanon has at least one (phrik)? As Steven Colbert himself pointed out, the hilt flanges are probably to protect Kylo's hands from his own cross-blades, not the vital components of the lightsaber from an enemy slide.

[TeChameleon]

Also, aside from the use in a lock that actually gets demonstrated in the movie (sorry you missed that part), why does everyone assume that the blade emitters or foci are inside the flanged parts of the hilt and not the central shaft? Or that the hilt isn't made out of a lightsaber-resistant material, of which Legends had like four and newcanon has at least one (phrik)? As Steven Colbert himself pointed out, the hilt flanges are probably to protect Kylo's hands from his own cross-blades, not the vital components of the lightsaber from an enemy slide.

*shrug*

I only saw the movie once, and, while I enjoyed it quite a bit, Kylo Ren would probably be what I considered the weakest part of it. So I was maybe tuning out a bit during any scene that involved him opening his mouth or, well, existing >.>

I'm assuming that the stupid crossguard thingies at least vaguely follow some recognizable laws of physics, which would mean that there would almost certainly be at least a little non-plasma-blade space between the crossguards and the main blade, since the beam-splitter (or whatever you want to call the bit that's making it not be a single blade anymore) is very unlikely to achieve perfect coverage, crazy space fantasy science or not.

And if Kylo Ren's lightsabre hilt is made out of lightsabre-resistant material, then it'll be the first one... ever, possibly? It certainly isn't very common, which is odd, when you think about how often lightsabre hilts seem to get sliced in half...

And why didn't the Separatists build around 1/10th the number of their silly Magnaguards that they did (the electric-staff-fighting robots) and build the entire droid out of the same metal as their staffs? Would have made them a heck of a lot more effective against Jedi...

[Bohandas]

I still think the stupid crossguard thingies on Kylo Ren's sabre are the worst yet

To be fair, Ren doesn't exactly have the tightest grip on sanity

[Jayngfet]

I still think the stupid crossguard thingies on Kylo Ren's sabre are the worst yet, though... one practice swing and your sword and hand are flying in different directions. And the sword will probably remove your head on the way by :smallyuk:



Having had the chance to actually handle a Kylo Ren saber, I found it a bit easier to use than one would expect. Mainly because the grip of the handle itself is easier to manipulate than most of the other sabers and you can actually spin it around pretty decently without either prong hitting you if you test it out for about thirty seconds. For a psychic trained to use it that's basically a non-issue.

I don't really like Kylo Rens lightsaber from a design perspective: It's a bit visually busy for me, since it'd be unique enough visually and through audio even without the side prongs. It's also really stupid because it has exposed wiring and a bunch of details that wouldn't pass in a high school shop class. But in terms of actually holding it in your hands you can spin it around pretty loosely without danger.

But design wise that's basically the entire big problem with TFA: There's the skeleton of something cool and unique, but the studio panicked and tacked on a bunch of stuff that wasn't necessary.

[Talakeal]

I still think the stupid crossguard thingies on Kylo Ren's sabre are the worst yet, though... one practice swing and your sword and hand are flying in different directions. And the sword will probably remove your head on the way by :smallyuk:

That and if your opponent managed to lock blades with you, all they'd have to do is slide down your blade until their own beam of plasma hit the beam splitter that was making those stupid little protrusions (which were never actually used for anything over the entire course of the movie... at least Darth Maul's stupid double lightsabre used both ends!) and who knows what that would do... the best case scenario (at least for the poor imbecile using the moronic crossguard lightsabre) would probably be that their blade would suddenly flail around in a bunch of random directions, and, if you were very, very, very lucky, would just kill them instead of both of you.

Aha- found the clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF3ocZu4cZo) I mentioned earlier. Mace Windu demonstrates that while a Jedi Master is perfectly capable of destroying everything in sight with no lightsabre, it's a lot more work, and a drastic reduction in his defensive capabilities.

So I watched that clip, and it makes me wonder why Jedi would ever bother with light sabers at all.

Especially the party where he telekinetically disassembles the droid and then flings it at the other droids like a giant cloud of buckshot.

Wouldn't using those powers on the environment be far more effective when fighting anyone, even another jedi, instead of using a weapon of any sort?

[Landis963]

So I watched that clip, and it makes me wonder why Jedi would ever bother with light sabers at all.

Especially the party where he telekinetically disassembles the droid and then flings it at the other droids like a giant cloud of buckshot.

Wouldn't using those powers on the environment be far more effective when fighting anyone, even another jedi, instead of using a weapon of any sort?

Because in the real life of the galaxy far far away (yes, yes, I know), they can't actually do that in the middle of a combat situation. That clip is from the perspective of that kid on the hilltop at the very end, who sees Mace (and presumably the rest of the Jedi) as superheroic protectors who can wipe out a legion of droids single-handed without breaking a sweat.

[Nerd-o-rama]

So I watched that clip, and it makes me wonder why Jedi would ever bother with light sabers at all.

Especially the party where he telekinetically disassembles the droid and then flings it at the other droids like a giant cloud of buckshot.

Wouldn't using those powers on the environment be far more effective when fighting anyone, even another jedi, instead of using a weapon of any sort?

Despite there being some incredibly significant mind-over-matter components, using the Force still takes physical effort - even if it's the Energy of the Universe, you've got to channel it through your own mind and body to lift that rock, and that takes a toll. It's always going to be more energy-efficient to damage something with a pointy object with its own thermal energy than lifting a big rock and chucking it at them, unless we're talking about a solid mass like a wall or something in specific anti-pointy-things armor. Therefore, unless you're an old master who's mostly let go of the notions of "physics" when it comes to the Force like Yoda and Palpatine, it's more effective to go ahead and use the stabbing implement than exhaust yourself channeling the energy needed to lift rocks.

[TeChameleon]

So I watched that clip, and it makes me wonder why Jedi would ever bother with light sabers at all.

Especially the party where he telekinetically disassembles the droid and then flings it at the other droids like a giant cloud of buckshot.

Wouldn't using those powers on the environment be far more effective when fighting anyone, even another jedi, instead of using a weapon of any sort?

There's the effort mentioned, of course- basically any Jedi that's not Mace Windu, aside from Yoda and maybe a few others would have collapsed in a wheezing heap about thirty seconds after that display. Also... well...

Simple thought excercise: yeah, Mace is awesome in that clip, although that entire show, good times though it is, tends to be to Star Wars as Dragonball Z is to martial arts... er, right. Anyways, imagine your super-telekinetic murder machine Jedi or Sith is running around, doing whatever it is that they do... and then they slap into an enemy Jedi/Sith that can do all that stuff they can do... and is carrying a tube of shaped plasma that can remove the super-telekinetic murder machine's head (or more likely arm, I guess >.>) with a casual backhanded swing.

Who's gonna win?

[Kantaki]

And why didn't the Separatists build around 1/10th the number of their silly Magnaguards that they did (the electric-staff-fighting robots) and build the entire droid out of the same metal as their staffs? Would have made them a heck of a lot more effective against Jedi...

Because lightsaber resistant materials tend to be very rare and/or are needed for other, more important things like armored ship-hulls. Same reason the Republic/Empire dresses its troops in plastic instead of something that can take a hit.
The Magnaguards are just way to expensive to use build more than a few bodyguards for Seperatist bigwigs.

[Kyberwulf]

Also, using the force willy nilly like that could result in the harm of a Living creature. Which is a huge no no for Jedi. That is seen as a perversion of the force.

[TeChameleon]

Because lightsaber resistant materials tend to be very rare and/or are needed for other, more important things like armored ship-hulls. Same reason the Republic/Empire dresses its troops in plastic instead of something that can take a hit.
The Magnaguards are just way to expensive to use build more than a few bodyguards for Seperatist bigwigs.

... er... right. That's why I said, rephrasing, "why didn't they build less of the things and use the stuff that would have gone into the extras' staffs to build the body of the ones they did build?"

[Emperordaniel]

... er... right. That's why I said, rephrasing, "why didn't they build less of the things and use the stuff that would have gone into the extras' staffs to build the body of the ones they did build?"

When it came to battle droids, it seems the Separatists' mindset was basically "more is better"; build enough standard-issue MagnaGuards, and no Jedi (with exceptions such as Yoda, perhaps) would be able to resist them - and having more MagnaGuards would also mean that you'd be able to send them to more places at once as well, allowing you to confront more Jedi with them.

Basically a quantity vs. quality issue, with the Separatists leaning to the side of "quantity".

[warty goblin]

It's also worth noting that the Magnaguards were relatively effective at slowing Jedi down with just the lightsaber resistant staff weapons. This just made it more attractive for the Jedi to Force push something heavy onto them; which being lightsaber resistant seems like it wouldn't exactly help with. So it's a big cost for not a lot of gain in actual Jedi-fighting effectiveness; particularly since having more of them made the collective force more resistant to getting heavy things thrown at them.

[Kantaki]

... er... right. That's why I said, rephrasing, "why didn't they build less of the things and use the stuff that would have gone into the extras' staffs to build the body of the ones they did build?"

Sorry, I completely misread what you wrote.
But the general point remains - the stuff you need to do this is really rare and expensive. And your way the Seperatists get less droids for the same - or a greater - amount of resources. Why should they do that when the model they have works well enough?
Sure, one Magnaguard doesn't stand a chance against a Jedi, but a few exemptions aside that changes when you throw several of them at a target. Especially if they are supported by other battledroids or supporting a commander like Ventress or Grievous or even Dooku.
I don't think that resistance to lightsabers is enough of a advantage against Jedi that it would be worth sacrificing strength in numbers.
If you need someone who can take on a Jedi -or several of them - you already have Dooku, Ventress, Grievous, Savage Oppress and some other dark Jedi from the EU.
Designing Magnaguards to do the same would be redundant and expensive.

[Jayngfet]

Not to mention Magnaguards are just one solution. The other being Droideka.

If one pins a jedi down with a couple of Droideka and holding them to defense with rapid fire shots, that'll likely wound them and allow Magnaguards to go in for the kill. The jedi likely can't counter a magnaguard within the first few seconds, and if they step back they'll be clear for the droideka to fire again. The jedi can't rebound a shot back at the droideka due to shields and can't immediatley cut thrugh a magnaguard at melee range without risking an attack from the magnaguard or droideka if they use their saber to attack and leave themselves open.

[GAAD]

Because they're too dead-set in their opposition and the need to destroy each other to just talk things out and compromise with lightsabers.

[Final Hyena]

Because Lightsabers can stop certain force powers and can be used in conjunction with them.

[ThinkMinty]

When it came to battle droids, it seems the Separatists' mindset was basically "more is better"; build enough standard-issue MagnaGuards, and no Jedi (with exceptions such as Yoda, perhaps) would be able to resist them - and having more MagnaGuards would also mean that you'd be able to send them to more places at once as well, allowing you to confront more Jedi with them.

Basically a quantity vs. quality issue, with the Separatists leaning to the side of "quantity".

Maybe they were roped into a contract with the guys who build the cheap droids and ended up with way more than they wanted, because some guy had the connections to get that contract in some kind of mutual favor arrangement? Reality has situations like that where the funding side of the arrangement commissions weapons the military has no use for instead of spending the money more practically, so why wouldn't that kind of hilariousness happen in space? They wanted more Magnaguards and Droideka, but the dudes who manufacture the terrible droids have connections and the internal politics play out so they build those instead investing of more effective troops made by less connected parties.

The Separatists could've started the war just to use up their largely-unwanted stockpile of killbots for all we know.

[Z3ro]

And why didn't the Separatists build around 1/10th the number of their silly Magnaguards that they did (the electric-staff-fighting robots) and build the entire droid out of the same metal as their staffs? Would have made them a heck of a lot more effective against Jedi...

I'm pretty sure the reason they didn't is is wasn't the material, it was whatever they did to energize the tips. And my guess is that probably whatever energy is produced is really high output; they couldn't even electrify the whole staff, let alone an entire droid.

[Killer Angel]

I think this is just appropriate (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djo_91jN3Pk&index=1&list=FL124FYY2XBZ8kcg_fFBR-VA) AND TOO MUCH COOL!!!!!!