How do attack action touch attacks with Two Weapon Fighting?

[Snowbluff]

Hello, I have a question, since I was thinking about the Beeseecher (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y9hpvoiCUltxq999KBjcUlkrb7oHw9-RipQJ-xuV-Ug/edit?usp=sharing) class I'm making and my friend suggested using two weapon fighting. Well, I didn't, but it got me thinking.

If you don't want to read it, here's the gist: the Beeseecher's essence stinger is a supernatural touch attack, usable as an attack (as opposed to the standard Standard Action).

What I want to know is if it's possible to use it with Two Weapon fighting itself, or with a weapon. If it isn't, I'll have to add a provision to let people fight with it as the offhand or maybe an invocation.

[Troacctid]

It's not a weapon, so no, you can't use it to fight with two weapons.

[Extra Anchovies]

Essence Stinger (Su): As a melee touch attack, the Beeseecher may channel the essential power of your Bee Queen. This attack deals 1d6 damage. The damage increases by 1d6 every odd character level past level 1.

The Essence Stinger ability may be improved by other other invocations, as per the descriptions of the invocations. You may apply only 1 Shape Invocation and 1 Essence Invocation to each use of the Essence Stinger. For apply the effects of Blast Essences and Shapes, treat the essence stinger as if it was Eldritch Blast.

I'm not seeing any language here that makes an exception to the default standard action to use (Su) abilities, so as written Essence Stinger doesn't even allow for non-TWF iterative attacks.

[Snowbluff]

I'm not seeing any language here that makes an exception to the default standard action to use (Su) abilities, so as written Essence Stinger doesn't even allow for non-TWF iterative attacks.

It's supposed to work as an attack action, which can be used as a part of a full attack action.

Edit: I'll patch it. It was supposed to say attack action to increase the specificity.

[Necrov]

It's supposed to work as an attack action, which can be used as a part of a full attack action.

Edit: I'll patch it. It was supposed to say attack action to increase the specificity.

I think this has been covered in the Dysfunctional Handbook. But 'attack action' doesn't exist in 3.5.


Essence Stinger (Su): As a melee touch attack, the Beeseecher may channel the essential power of your Bee Queen. This attack deals 1d6 damage. The damage increases by 1d6 every odd character level past level 1.

The Essence Stinger ability may be improved by other other invocations, as per the descriptions of the invocations. You may apply only 1 Shape Invocation and 1 Essence Invocation to each use of the Essence Stinger. For apply the effects of Blast Essences and Shapes, treat the essence stinger as if it was Eldritch Blast.

I'm with Extra Anchovies here. There's nothing contained in the text that implies it is any different to any other (Su) attack. Thus it will not work with TWF. Or even qualify for iteratives outside of TWF.

[Misereor]

According to the 3.0 splatbook "Tome and Blood", you can use Two Weapon Fighting with a touch attack spell and a melee weapon.
It stands to reason that most supernatural abilites wouldn't be any more complicated to use.
In the end I guess it depends on what sourcebooks you allow in your campaign.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There's no reason you can't TWF with unarmed strikes "in" both hands. You'd take the normal penalties of course. A hand holding the charge for a touch attack spell counts as armed, so you can use it as an off-hand weapon too.
The only problem i see is that you can't usually hold more than one charge. If you want to TWF with touch spells in both hands you'd need Spell Flower or a similar ability.

To use it with a weapon you'd need either a channel ability or a weapon enhancement like Necrotic Focus (or PF's Conductive) unless that's explicitly part of the ability.

[Troacctid]

You can't hold the charge for a supernatural touch attack like you can with a spell, so that doesn't help.

[Jack_Simth]

You can't hold the charge for a supernatural touch attack like you can with a spell, so that doesn't help.

There are, however, a couple of multiple attack spells that don't require holding the charge. Flame Blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameBlade.htm) and Produce Flame (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/produceFlame.htm) come to mind - both are effect spells that let you do things.

[Hiro Quester]

Is it a natural weapon? It sounds like it should be characterized as one.

If so, you can have iterative regular or TWF attacks with other weapons or unarmed strikes, and also make this natural weapon (touch) attack at -5 as a secondary attack.

Or it can be your primary attack if you want to make it at full BAB.

Then forgo other attacks, or apply to weapon attacks both TWF penalties for "offhand" attacks and for secondary attacks, and also apply -2 TWF penalty to that primary touch attack.

[Snowbluff]

Actually, "as a melee touch attack" gets around it being a standard action. And then I'll add some clarification for those who don't understand or would argue otherwise, and done.

Making it a natural attack is WHOLLY inaccurate, non descriptive, and would go against the intent of the ability. It will NEVER be considered a natural attack, as it will just make the ability worse in almost every way imaginable.

That being said, the actual Essence Stinger is beside the point. I just needed a confirmation on that ruling. I'll have to figure out a way to make it behave more like a weapon. Might be better to make it work like an ability that conjures a weapon, like soul knife.

[Zaq]

As I recall, Soulbow is worded in such a way that mind arrows are attack actions that play nice with TWF. Maybe poach some of the wording from Soulbow?

[Snowbluff]

As I recall, Soulbow is worded in such a way that mind arrows are attack actions that play nice with TWF. Maybe poach some of the wording from Soulbow?

Well, it actually generated ammunition, and some of the wording is redundant. For example, when it says that you can generate multiple arrow as part of attack, which is a meaningless phrase when making one is already a free action.

Also, for some reason DR is implied to apply, which I want to avoid. If it's actually a "weapon," and not treated as (Su), DR would apply.

What it does say, and what I was considering, is that it works with certain feats (like PBS). I could have it work with feats that apply to weapons. The Stinger already works like Eldritch blast for some purposes so it can be used with Warlock based material.

[Sliver]

How about having you imbue a charge of Essence Stinger into your arms as a free action, and treat it the same as holding a charge? Since you are considered armed, you should be able to do all the normal options, even AoO with it, or combine it with unarmed strikes. You could add that you can hold up to two charges simultaneously with different limbs so that twf is possible.

[Psyren]

Couldn't you crib some wording from Eldritch Glaive? (Also, doesn't this belong in homebrew?)

[MilleniaAntares]

Just follow the soulknife's example and make it a weapon. "The beseecher may draw a weapon from the ether known as an essence stinger. The beseecher may have up to two such weapons at a time. These weapons attack touch AC."

Or something like that, I'm not in the right state of mind to word things for you.

[Extra Anchovies]

Couldn't you crib some wording from Eldritch Glaive?

Glaive doesn't quite fit - it's a full-round action that lets you make a full attack with the glaive, but OP's goal is TWF with the stinger and another weapon. What would work, though, is something akin to Eldritch Claws (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Eldritch_Claws). How about this, as a replacement for the current first paragraph of the Essence Stinger ability:

Essence Stinger (Su): As a free action, you may channel the essence of your Bee Queen to form a magical stinger extending from one of your hands. You can use the stinger to deliver melee touch attacks that each deal 1d6 damage; treat the Essence Stinger as a weapon for the purposes of feats that affect weapons (such as Weapon Finesse or Weapon Focus). This damage increases by 1d6 at each odd Beeseecher level after 1st (2d6 at 3rd, 3d6 at 5th, etc). A Beeseecher is automatically proficient with their Essence Stinger. The stinger is only semi-physical, and thus items can be held in the hand that is used to attack with the stinger, but a hand that is used to attack with the stinger cannot also attack with other weapons or use other items in the same turn. Treat the Essence Stinger as a light weapon for the purposes of Two-Weapon Fighting. Once you form your Essence Stinger, it remains until you dismiss it (a free action).

Adds more words, but it explicitly calls out how it works with weapon feats, proficiency, TWF, other items in hand, etc.


(Also, doesn't this belong in homebrew?)

I dunno. I think OP's question (how to word a melee-touch ability to work with TWF) has enough system-wide application to merit its own thread.

[MilleniaAntares]

One suggestion, Anchovies, is to specify whether the damage from higher levels is added to the base damage, or is added on as extra damage, given the possibility of getting really high critical damage if it's the former.

[DeAnno]

I would just make it a paired primary natural attack (like claws), one for each hand (obviously requiring the hands be free) and then assign that natural attack a lot of weird properties. That way the TWF is included and it plays nice with a lot of other things.