Huh. ECL and going epic, I'm confused.

[Andorn]

So, I came across this Sage Advice column in Dragon 310, page 99. Here was the question:



When is a monster character considered epic level? Do you "go epic" when your total class levels equal 20 or when your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+?


To which, Skip Williams replied:



A monster becomes an epic-level character when its character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monster's character level is equal to its racial Hit Dice + class levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook.)

A creature's ECL has no effect on when it becomes an epic character, its ECL continues to affect how much experience it earns and when it can add a new level.


So, my mind immediately said, "Ummm, whaaaat?" After all, I've seen dozens of builds here on these boards, where people won't build using creatures with level adjustments, presumably because you can't get in 20 character levels before epic, as if level 20 is some hard and fast limit. So, I went to check out what the Epic Level Handbook actually says:



MONSTERS AS EPIC CHARACTERS
As first introduced in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting
(and discussed in detail in Savage Species), the effective character
level (ECL) of any creature more powerful than the standard
races in the Player’s Handbook is equal to the creature’s
Hit Dice and class levels (if any) plus its level adjustment. This
replaces the rule in the Monster Manual that states that a creature’s
“monster level” is equal to its Hit Dice.
Regardless of its ECL, a monster with class levels uses the
base attack bonus and base save bonus progressions of its
class (rather than the progression shown on Table 1–1) until it
has 20 character levels. Beginning with its 21st character level,
it uses the progressions shown on Table 1–1.
In any other place in this book where “character level” is
indicated, you can use effective character level instead. For
example, a creature with a level adjustment of +5 who is also a
13th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 21 and eligible to
select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites.


That seems to say the exact opposite of what Skip Williams says it does. It's my understanding that Sage Advice was more or less official. So, which takes precedence, the EPH, or the Sage Advice column, which was related to the rollout of Version 3.5?

So, if the Sage Advice column is wrong, was it corrected later? Anyone have any insights on what happened here?

[Cosi]

The column is probably wrong. I'm not super clear on which of the "maybe rules" rants by various figures in R&D count as actual rules, but I don't think Sage Advice does. Given that the book clearly states one thing, I can't really see overriding that with somebody's ravings in a magazine. I would check to see if he got it made into actual rules to win this particular argument retroactively though.

If you are DMing a game, I strongly suggest ignoring all the various designer rants out there (except maybe the errata) and just ruling things in ways that don't break the game.

[Âmesang]

Well, to be fair it does say can, not have to. :smalltongue:

I'm looking at the 3.5 Monster Manual which states, on page 291, that:

"A monster's total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases. For example, a 1st-level minotaur barbarian has a total of 7 HD. It has three feats (for its 1st, 3rd, and 6th HD). When it gains 2nd level as a barbarian, it becomes a creature of 8 Hit Dice and improves one ability score by 1 point. When it adds its 3rd level of barbarian, the minotaur becomes a creature of 9 Hit Dice and gains its 4th fourth feat."

…and here's the funny thing: The sidebar on page 7 of the Epic Level Handbook states:

"This limit doesn't apply to the base attack bonus derived strictly from a monster's Hit Dice. For instance, a titan with 21 HD using the monster advancement rules in the Monster Manual has a base attack bonus of +21. Thus, another cap exists: A high base attack bonus never grants a creature more than four attacks with any given weapon using the full attack option.
So apparently monsters of 21+ HD both do and don't use the rules for epic attack/save bonus progression. :smallconfused:

Personally I'd agree with Skip; since not every monster has a level adjustment (see titans) I'd strictly use its Hit Dice and class levels to determine additional feats and ability score increases. So a 15th-level minotaur barbarian has 21 Hit Dice and qualifies for his first epic feat, but his Effective Character Level of 23rd which determines his starting character wealth and how much experience he needs to level up.

[Necroticplague]

The quoted section seems to contradict itself in places, which seems to be the origin of the problem.

MONSTERS AS EPIC CHARACTERS
As first introduced in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting
(and discussed in detail in Savage Species), the effective character
level (ECL) of any creature more powerful than the standard
races in the Player’s Handbook is equal to the creature’s
Hit Dice and class levels (if any) plus its level adjustment. This
replaces the rule in the Monster Manual that states that a creature’s
“monster level” is equal to its Hit Dice.
Regardless of its ECL, a monster with class levels uses the
base attack bonus and base save bonus progressions of its
class (rather than the progression shown on Table 1–1) until it
has 20 character levels. Beginning with its 21st character level,
it uses the progressions shown on Table 1–1.
In any other place in this book where “character level” is
indicated, you can use effective character level instead. For
example, a creature with a level adjustment of +5 who is also a
13th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 21 and eligible to
select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites.

The bolded seems to indicate that you're not Epic (because you aren't getting Epic Attack and Save bonuses) until character level 20. The italicized example seems to indicate the opposite, and you're epic at ECL 20.

The only way I can think of to combine these statement into one cohesive interpretation is "you're considered Epic based on your ECL, but you continue to use the non-epic rules for saves and BaB until your character levels alone would make you epic.". So a half-goristro human fighter 17 would be considered epic, and thus qualify for things requiring it (as an ECL 21 character), but he wouldn't have to resort to the Epic Attack Bonus and Saves until he's half goristro fighter 20 (ECL 24).

[Andorn]

Well, what it sounds like is ECL governs how much XP you need to level, and how much XP you get from encounters. However, it has little to do with epic progression.

So, a pixie, LA+4 (or +6), but Hit Dice based on class, needs to gain 20 character levels to be epic. The same is true for taking templates. While you have a level adjustment which affects your XP rate, you still need to gain 20 levels to get that first epic feat.

[Âmesang]

So I was flipping through the DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide to double check the limits of bags of holding when I came across this on page 209… :smallconfused:


MONSTERS AS EPIC CHARACTERS
The epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character levels, using the creature's effective character level (ECL) instead of just its class levels. For example, a bugbear (3 Hit Dice and +2 level adjustment) that is also a 14th-level fighter/3rd-level blackguard is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and save bonus.

[Douglas]

So, my mind immediately said, "Ummm, whaaaat?" After all, I've seen dozens of builds here on these boards, where people won't build using creatures with level adjustments, presumably because you can't get in 20 character levels before epic, as if level 20 is some hard and fast limit.
That has nothing to do with it. The reason people usually don't use creatures with level adjustments is because, in the overwhelming majority of cases, a character with equal ECL but no level adjustment is significantly more powerful no matter what level you're talking about. Every point of level adjustment is, at every point of your character's career, one class level that you would otherwise have but don't, and class levels are very powerful things.

For example drow have a level adjustment of +2. In most cases, a level 5 drow character is less powerful than a similar level 7 human character. Likewise, a level 16 drow character is usually less powerful than a similar level 18 human character. Sure a drow character can reach level 20 just like anyone else, but a human character in his place would be level 22 instead.