To Fly or Not to Fly

[gtwucla]

How much would it bother you for all there to be no fly spells in your campaign? Our group plays with a lot of house rules and one thing over the years of cuts, changes, and additions is that there are no superman-like fly spells. That doesn't mean there are strictly no ways of flying- there is levitation and methods of getting off the ground with telekinesis, but other than straight up transforming into a creature that can fly or becoming incorporeal, there's no floating around in the sky with perfect movement. How much would this bother you as a player? It would seem to me that if no one can fly (flying mounts are few and far between as well) then we're all in the same boat. But after our last session I know at least one of the players in particular is unhappy about it. Thoughts? And why thoughts?

[LTwerewolf]

As long as many of the chief opponents couldn't either, otherwise it's nonsense that one again hurts most mundanes more than casters. Casters have very powerful ranged options. Rogues and barbarians not so much.

[gtwucla]

Yeah it came up because a friend DM'd and didn't realize some of the changes and we were bombarded to oblivion from the sky, and only by the DM's good graces did we not all just die. I mean in the end it was a number of things, including blocking ourselves in so we couldn't move outside the town square (the rest of the town was on fire) and a spell which provided low cloud cover (erroneously cast by our druid), essentially blocking our line of sight, while they fire balled us from above it (and spied on us with clairvoyance). All and all it was a bad baad situation made worse by an unexpected assault from above. I took away a lot from as far as differences in play style (we were play testing) and the DM and I talked over a bit after, but another player simply felt this: see this is why we need the fly spell. And so, I asked the question in the post.

[LTwerewolf]

If it's going to be a standard rule, it needs to apply equally to both sides. That encounter it clearly didn't, so it's a problem. It isn't a house rule that would entirely ruin things so long as the encounters were adjusted appropriately.

[gtwucla]

Agreed. Almost exactly what I said when we talked about it. I wonder though if some people just really like the idea of flying and are miffed that they can't do it.

[ryu]

Agreed. Almost exactly what I said when we talked about it. I wonder though if some people just really like the idea of flying and are miffed that they can't do it.

Flying is just generally useful. Look at a any given cliff, mountain, or very wide canyon. Now look at the spells list and notice that fly is pretty much the first spell useful in all of those situations that also isn't specifically self targeting. It's also incredibly good for engagements yes. People who can fly have a direct, palpable advantage for simple ability to dictate the terms of most fights. Net effect of this change? You said that people are still allowed to turn into flying things. Therefore the casters get alter self or similar and the mundanes get shafted.

[ace rooster]

Yeah it came up because a friend DM'd and didn't realize some of the changes and we were bombarded to oblivion from the sky, and only by the DM's good graces did we not all just die. I mean in the end it was a number of things, including blocking ourselves in so we couldn't move outside the town square (the rest of the town was on fire) and a spell which provided low cloud cover (erroneously cast by our druid), essentially blocking our line of sight, while they fire balled us from above it (and spied on us with clairvoyance). All and all it was a bad baad situation made worse by an unexpected assault from above. I took away a lot from as far as differences in play style (we were play testing) and the DM and I talked over a bit after, but another player simply felt this: see this is why we need the fly spell. And so, I asked the question in the post.

Couple of things. Firstly, fog cloud only covers a 40ft diameter circle, so unless this was a homebrew version you are not going to be covering a kids tennis court with one, never mind a town square. If the area you were in was that size then clairvoyance wasn't even needed.

Secondly, if you can afford four fly spells you can afford a scroll of teleport. You had already lost, and needed an exit rather than an attack option. You had got yourself into a situation where you had no way out and very limited offensive options, so all the enemies needed was one attack option and you were goners. Flight was what they went with, but spamming summons from out of sight or indirect fire would be just as unanswerable.

Thirdly: Druid...
Druids have wild shape, so could naturally fly. Additionally they have the ability to spontaneously cast summon nature's ally, so they can burn a 4th level spell slot to get 1d4+1 hippogriffs for the rest of the party.

It sounds like the other player feels like the PCs should always have an option that will let them win locally, no matter how bad your decision making has been. You had gotten yourselves into an unwinnable situation and should have been in damage mitigation mode. Insisting that you need a fly spell strikes me as a little childish.


I like the decision away from the fly spell. Flying mounts are not particularly expensive, so flight still has much of it's utility, but it does make flight a much harder tactical decision and prevent terrain being a non factor at high levels.

[Necroticplague]

Meh. Most of my flying comes from getting wings grafted on or being a ghost, so wouldn't really effect me. The main purpose of it can be emulated with a Spider Climb (or a climb speed, also available as a graft). Since Alter Self is relatively low-level, it seems kinda easy to work around as well.

That being said, I'm not sure where you're getting Fly being superman style inexplicable floating from. Given how Fly is a transmutation, it seems like the most reasonable explanation is that it makes you grow wings.

[Âmesang]

While polymorphing into a dragon is great for cross-country travel, I enjoy the fly spell both for its maneuverability and because it can be cast on others (especially with the archmage's arcane reach or the Reach Spell feat).

…thought I don't get why, if two people under mass fly move too far apart, the spell fails for everyone. :smallconfused:

[gtwucla]

That being said, I'm not sure where you're getting Fly being superman style inexplicable floating from. Given how Fly is a transmutation, it seems like the most reasonable explanation is that it makes you grow wings.

I think that's fair, just not how anyone I've played with so far have imagineered it.


And the cloud blockage was from a rain spell. Not how its written, but it was assumed that a low rain cloud would block the vision of the flying fireball people.

[torrasque666]

That being said, I'm not sure where you're getting Fly being superman style inexplicable floating from. Given how Fly is a transmutation, it seems like the most reasonable explanation is that it makes you grow wings.
Transmutation just means that properties are changed. Most creatures in the Monster Manual that have wings have less-than-perfect maneuverability. And most spells that cause a physical change to you say so in their fluff text. I mean, reverse gravity is also a transmutation spell, so physical properties like gravity are fair game for a spell of that same family.

[Waazraath]

I played in a campaign where all fly abilities for PC's were off, and the DM hardly used flying monsters. Reason was, among others, that it is complicated to keep track of combat in 3d, without a 3d grid to support it. But that meant no fly, no flying races, no polymorph in flying creatures, nothing. It worked very well, nobody missed it that campaign, and combat was easier and faster.

[torrasque666]

I played in a campaign where all fly abilities for PC's were off, and the DM hardly used flying monsters. Reason was, among others, that it is complicated to keep track of combat in 3d, without a 3d grid to support it. But that meant no fly, no flying races, no polymorph in flying creatures, nothing. It worked very well, nobody missed it that campaign, and combat was easier and faster.
Same. My group has almost never used flight. Only reason I even take options to have it is because this place has ingrained the idea in my head.

[Rainshine]

In your campaign? The existence or non wouldn't change things at all for me :P

Otherwise, it'd be something I'd want to know going into a campaign, as I usually try and plan of some way of flight, because it is so handy. From an overall point of view, Fly/Mass Fly at least can allow martials to fly and still perform. Alternative methods of flying that you called out as being OK -- polymorphs -- are of limited use to martials, being cast as personal spells and perhaps being unable to wield their weapons.

[Zaq]

I basically agree with what's been said so far. If you want to basically excise all flight from the game and have everything take place on a 2D combat grid, I can get behind that. But if there are still going to be flying enemies and still going to be options for casters to fly, you're just giving a disadvantage to characters who need outside help flying while only mildly inconveniencing the already-powerful casters (possibly even buffing them if there are going to be fewer flying enemies), and I don't see how that makes the game more fun.

What part of as-written flight options is it that bothers your group? Do they not like keeping track of a 3D combat grid? Do they feel like it's unbalanced? Do they have some bizarre fluff objection? Basically every proposed houserule comes from someone being unhappy with some aspect of the as-written rules, so figuring out exactly what they don't like about the existing rules might be the best way to address the situation.

[gtwucla]

I basically agree with what's been said so far. If you want to basically excise all flight from the game and have everything take place on a 2D combat grid, I can get behind that. But if there are still going to be flying enemies and still going to be options for casters to fly, you're just giving a disadvantage to characters who need outside help flying while only mildly inconveniencing the already-powerful casters (possibly even buffing them if there are going to be fewer flying enemies), and I don't see how that makes the game more fun.

What part of as-written flight options is it that bothers your group? Do they not like keeping track of a 3D combat grid? Do they feel like it's unbalanced? Do they have some bizarre fluff objection? Basically every proposed houserule comes from someone being unhappy with some aspect of the as-written rules, so figuring out exactly what they don't like about the existing rules might be the best way to address the situation.

Mostly like Waazraath said, its just not something we care to keep track of during battle. And the fluff reason is we didn't want to have bunch of flying people zipping around our campaign world (as far as I'm concerned there's no problem with flying spells in any other campaign world).