Multiclassing - Warlock, Sorcerer and Paladin?

[RedDiomedes]

Im new to Dnd. For my first game the DM just generated a random character for me and I got a Gnome Paladin with random stats that has created a bit of a mess for me long term.

Reading over the players handbook I started wondering what interesting things I could do with my character. This got me to realise that a paladin/Sorcerer might be a great idea. Then I got to thinking that at some point I would like to create a new character that's 100% my own idea and I was thinking a warlock/sorcerer would be awesome. The internet was full of pages that suggested that neither of these ideas were very unique and that both build work great.

Finally though I stumbled on what I thought may be a fantastic idea that I can't find much writing on. Sorcerer 15, paladin 2, Warlock 3

Starting stats as half elf using a 15/14/14/10/8/8 point buy


17 Charisma (Primary stat to 20)
15 Dexterity (Secondary stat, Resilient Feat for proficiency. Stop at 16)
15 Constituion (Secondary stat, Stop at 16)
10 Wisdom
8 Intelligence
8 Strength



Warlock 3:
Eldricht blast (add charisma to blast)
Pact magic, 2 regenerating lvl 2 spell slots (The sorcerers lvl 20 capstone simulated early!)
2 cantrips
pact of the blade (lifedrinker) [not sure it's the best move here but I love the idea of a pact weapon]
hex spell

Sorcerer:
Favoured Soul (Light)
Medium armour and Shield Proficiency
6 cantrips
Extra attack
metamagic (Twinned, Quicken)
15 sorcery points
Haste spell
+15 caster levels

Paladin:
Weapon and armour proficiencies [maybe why pact of the blade is a bad move]
Divine Smite (yes)
Fighting Style (Defensive?)
Lay on hands (10 points)
+ 1 caster level

My thought is that instead of a 3 Warlock/ 17 Sorcery build I am losing 2 lvls of sorcerer to gain access to Divine Smite. Thanks to to the warlock I can regenerate 4 sorcery points on a short rest. Thanks to the Sorcerer I can attack twice, quicken and twin spells. Thanks to the Paladin I can divine Smite.

Nova damage would be

Quicken Eldricht blast (Or strongest spell) as a bonus action, attack twice with life drinker and divine smite with 2 lvl 4 spells
= (4d10 +20) + (1d6 +5d8 +8) +(1d6 +5d8 +8)
Average Damage =42 +34 +34 =110
With haste active an extra action for 1 more Eldricht blast.
Spam Eldricht blast when you have no more spell slots for divine Smite

That's my thoughts for a strong Magic warrior build. Any thoughts? Are the 2 levels of paladin worth it?

[Cybren]

Haste won't grant you an extra action carte blanche, you can use it to make a single weapon attack, you can't cast a spell.

depending on what level your campaign is at id make sure that you aren't waiting too long for synergies to kick in so you're not bored out of your mind. Sometimes it can be a bit of a trap planning out a build till level 20, because how often do games reach level 20, and when they get there how often do they stay there?

[Sir cryosin]

Im new to Dnd. For my first game the DM just generated a random character for me and I got a Gnome Paladin with random stats that has created a bit of a mess for me long term.

Reading over the players handbook I started wondering what interesting things I could do with my character. This got me to realise that a paladin/Sorcerer might be a great idea. Then I got to thinking that at some point I would like to create a new character that's 100% my own idea and I was thinking a warlock/sorcerer would be awesome. The internet was full of pages that suggested that neither of these ideas were very unique and that both build work great.

Finally though I stumbled on what I thought may be a fantastic idea that I can't find much writing on. Sorcerer 15, paladin 2, Warlock 3

Starting stats as half elf using a 15/14/14/10/8/8 point buy


17 Charisma (Primary stat to 20)
15 Dexterity (Secondary stat, Resilient Feat for proficiency. Stop at 16)
15 Constituion (Secondary stat, Stop at 16)
10 Wisdom
8 Intelligence
8 Strength



Warlock 3:
Eldricht blast (add charisma to blast)
Pact magic, 2 regenerating lvl 2 spell slots (The sorcerers lvl 20 capstone simulated early!)
2 cantrips
pact of the blade (lifedrinker) [not sure it's the best move here but I love the idea of a pact weapon]
hex spell

Sorcerer:
Favoured Soul (Light)
Medium armour and Shield Proficiency
6 cantrips
Extra attack
metamagic (Twinned, Quicken)
15 sorcery points
Haste spell
+15 caster levels

Paladin:
Weapon and armour proficiencies [maybe why pact of the blade is a bad move]
Divine Smite (yes)
Fighting Style (Defensive?)
Lay on hands (10 points)
+ 1 caster level

My thought is that instead of a 3 Warlock/ 17 Sorcery build I am losing 2 lvls of sorcerer to gain access to Divine Smite. Thanks to to the warlock I can regenerate 4 sorcery points on a short rest. Thanks to the Sorcerer I can attack twice, quicken and twin spells. Thanks to the Paladin I can divine Smite.

Nova damage would be

Quicken Eldricht blast (Or strongest spell) as a bonus action, attack twice with life drinker and divine smite with 2 lvl 4 spells
= (4d10 +20) + (1d6 +5d8 +8) +(1d6 +5d8 +8)
Average Damage =42 +34 +34 =110
With haste active an extra action for 1 more Eldricht blast.
Spam Eldricht blast when you have no more spell slots for divine Smite

That's my thoughts for a strong Magic warrior build. Any thoughts? Are the 2 levels of paladin worth it?

You need 12 lvs in warlock to get life drinker warlock invocations go off your warlock lv not character lvs.

[Segev]

You need 12 lvs in warlock to get life drinker warlock invocations go off your warlock lv not character lvs.

Does it say this anywhere? I can certainly see ruling that way, but I'm curious if it's explicit or implicit.

[Cybren]

Does it say this anywhere? I can certainly see ruling that way, but I'm curious if it's explicit or implicit.

PHB errata changes "level" to "warlock level". Prior to that no one was sure

[Segev]

PHB errata changes "level" to "warlock level". Prior to that no one was sure

Ah, that's definitive, then. Disappointing that I don't have an errata'd PHB, but such may not even exist. Good to know, though.

[Corran]

That's my thoughts for a strong Magic warrior build. Any thoughts? Are the 2 levels of paladin worth it?
Short answer, no, they are NOT worth it.

If you want to wear good armor and add to your nova, fighter 2 might be an option worth consideing.

Reduce the warlocks levels to just 1, for amrmor of agathys. Introduce that warlock level very late in the game.

Based on the wants (tankiness, melee and good nova), fighter2/warlock1/sorcerer17 is your best bet.

ps1: Though if you really need to play a melee gish, then EK or paladin is a better choice. Dont bother with complicated builds that consist of several levels of a caster class. They will give you a few tricks for melee but they dont excel in that area.

ps2: In 99% of all cases, multiclassing into paladin is not worth it (or it has a strictly better alternative), unless you are going for at least 5/6 paladin levels.

ps3: FS is a bad choice for multiclass'd gishes. Go with draconic or wild magic.

ps4: You also need str 13, to multiclass in or out of paladin.



Starting stats as half elf using a 15/14/14/10/8/8 point buy

You are 2 points short.

[MaxWilson]

That's my thoughts for a strong Magic warrior build. Any thoughts? Are the 2 levels of paladin worth it?

Paladin/Sorceror/Warlock is mechanically a very strong combo, if you can somehow find a way to roleplay all those disparate classes in a single character. Paladin/Warlock has a fair amount of tension to it, although Paladin of Ancients + Feylock seems reasonable to many people, and other combinations can be doable under certain circumstances, e.g. Paladin of Vengeance + Cthulock, or maybe even Crown Paladin + Fiendlock in some kingdoms.

About the mechanics though: personally, I don't see a lot of benefit to going high-Sorcerer if you're not going to get Wish, and I'd rather have the save proficiencies and awesome 3rd level Paladin spells and Extra Attack. A Sorc 15/Paladin 2/Warlock 3 has 16th-level slots plus Warlock slots, right? Contrast with a Paladin 9/Sorc 9/Warlock 2, which has 14th level slots (so you're down one 8th level spell slot) and has no 6th/7th/8th-level known spells--but he does have many more Paladin spells known including stuff like Dispel Magic that decreases the pressure on his Sorcerer spells known. If you take Extend and Quicken for your metamagics instead of Twin and Quicken, you can (1) use Animate Objects more effectively for combat, since you don't have to worry so much about running out of duration while objects are slowly flying toward their targets, (2) be the second-best healer in the game, healing 140 HP of damage out of a third-level slot with Extended Aura of Vitality, (3) still do crazy stuff like attack twice with your weapon, smiting for 5d8 extra damage per hit, plus Quicken Greenflame Blade (from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide/SCAG) and then smite for 5d8 on that one too. (Smiting is extremely inefficient and should be done rarely, but when you need to do it, it's nice to have the option.)

You may ask, "What do I do with my 6th/7th level slots if I don't know any 6th/7th level spells?" Here's one idea: take GWM as your feat, and use your 7th level slot to cast Elemental Weapon VII to turn your weapon into a +3 to-hit, +3d4 to damage weapon for an hour. Then use your 6th level slot to cast Aid VI for +25 bonus HP to three people in your party for the next eight hours. Neither of those is quite as good as a top-flight 6th or 7th level spell like Mass Suggestion/Forcecage, but they are still very good, maybe equivalent to a 5.5th level spell.

[lkwpeter]

Just in general: I wouldn't go for too many classes. In 5E the strong elements of each class come with its higher levels, so multiclassing often doesn't give you access to the cute stuff.

[SharkForce]

Just in general: I wouldn't go for too many classes. In 5E the strong elements of each class come with its higher levels, so multiclassing often doesn't give you access to the cute stuff.

can't say i generally agree with that.

it's true of spellcasting classes. it is somewhat true of certain specific non-spellcasting classes. it definitely is not true of all classes.

and if your goal is not so much to make a caster that can fight as it is to make a warrior that can cast, multiclassing even with a full spellcaster class in the mix is just fine.

[RedDiomedes]

Paladin/Sorceror/Warlock is mechanically a very strong combo, if you can somehow find a way to roleplay all those disparate classes in a single character. Paladin/Warlock has a fair amount of tension to it, although Paladin of Ancients + Feylock seems reasonable to many people, and other combinations can be doable under certain circumstances, e.g. Paladin of Vengeance + Cthulock, or maybe even Crown Paladin + Fiendlock in some kingdoms.

About the mechanics though: personally, I don't see a lot of benefit to going high-Sorcerer if you're not going to get Wish, and I'd rather have the save proficiencies and awesome 3rd level Paladin spells and Extra Attack. A Sorc 15/Paladin 2/Warlock 3 has 16th-level slots plus Warlock slots, right? Contrast with a Paladin 9/Sorc 9/Warlock 2, which has 14th level slots (so you're down one 8th level spell slot) and has no 6th/7th/8th-level known spells--but he does have many more Paladin spells known including stuff like Dispel Magic that decreases the pressure on his Sorcerer spells known. If you take Extend and Quicken for your metamagics instead of Twin and Quicken, you can (1) use Animate Objects more effectively for combat, since you don't have to worry so much about running out of duration while objects are slowly flying toward their targets, (2) be the second-best healer in the game, healing 140 HP of damage out of a third-level slot with Extended Aura of Vitality, (3) still do crazy stuff like attack twice with your weapon, smiting for 5d8 extra damage per hit, plus Quicken Greenflame Blade (from Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide/SCAG) and then smite for 5d8 on that one too. (Smiting is extremely inefficient and should be done rarely, but when you need to do it, it's nice to have the option.)

You may ask, "What do I do with my 6th/7th level slots if I don't know any 6th/7th level spells?" Here's one idea: take GWM as your feat, and use your 7th level slot to cast Elemental Weapon VII to turn your weapon into a +3 to-hit, +3d4 to damage weapon for an hour. Then use your 6th level slot to cast Aid VI for +25 bonus HP to three people in your party for the next eight hours. Neither of those is quite as good as a top-flight 6th or 7th level spell like Mass Suggestion/Forcecage, but they are still very good, maybe equivalent to a 5.5th level spell.

I was going to roleplay it as a feylock/cthulock sorcerer who is determined to learn everything there is to learn about magic and to gain power. Not evil but selfish. I was going to play it that he hates the pact since it makes him beholden and he tries to do everything to prevent becoming more beholden (hence low warlock level) and would if he could, break his pact. I was going to role-play that since the paladin stops at level 2 and never swears his oath that side of the character was less about being a a paladin and more about stealing magical knowledge.

The high level of sorcerer is for the sorcery points to spam twin and quicken etc. I am not sure if the 3 class build is best now.


Options seem to be:
Warlock 3 /paladin 2 /sorcerer 15
Paladin 6 /Sorcerer 14
Warlock /3 Sorcerer 17
Paladin 6 /Warlock 3 /Sorcerer 11
Paladin 9/Sorc 9/Warlock 2

Harsh blow about Haste! I was just thinking with the new SCAG cantrips that they could almost be a spuedo smite every turn but haste won't allow them. Am i putting too much value into second attacks?

[MaxWilson]

Harsh blow about Haste! I was just thinking with the new SCAG cantrips that they could almost be a spuedo smite every turn but haste won't allow them. Am i putting too much value into second attacks?

Probably so. Eldritch Blast + Quickened Eldritch Blast is already pretty good, especially on a target that you've previously Hexed, and adding in another weapon attack won't really help you much. But Haste is still potentially valuable defensively--you can use it e.g. to Hide around a corner after every turn that you finish, so that enemies cannot target you.

[CaptAl]

Probably so. Eldritch Blast + Quickened Eldritch Blast is already pretty good, especially on a target that you've previously Hexed, and adding in another weapon attack won't really help you much. But Haste is still potentially valuable defensively--you can use it e.g. to Hide around a corner after every turn that you finish, so that enemies cannot target you.

There's one part of this that I disagree with. Quicken costs resources. Extra attack is free. You won't be able to spam quicken all day, and you will miss. It sucks to blow those spell points only to whiff. EB has multiple attack rolls so you're unlikely to miss entirely but its nice to have the extra attack to add options to your combat rounds at no resource cost.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

...Walk into a bar.

But seriously though, I wouldn't go for all three. Any two of those is a good combination, but not all three.

[SharkForce]

...Walk into a bar.

But seriously though, I wouldn't go for all three. Any two of those is a good combination, but not all three.

honestly, they make a good combination with all three as well... the problem is getting there. if you're starting at level 10 or something, i'd totally say it's worth it. if you're starting at level 1 and you have to somehow manage to get to level 9 or something like that before your build comes online, very much not worth it.

[MaxWilson]

honestly, they make a good combination with all three as well... the problem is getting there. if you're starting at level 10 or something, i'd totally say it's worth it. if you're starting at level 1 and you have to somehow manage to get to level 9 or something like that before your build comes online, very much not worth it.

You can start as a Paladin and play mostly pure from levels 1-7, taking a single level of Sorcerer somewhere along the way. Then invest levels 8 and 9 in Warlock before returning to Paladin for levels 1-12. Levels 13-20 are all Sorcerer.

This way you get the important benefits of Sorcerer early (Tides of Chaos, Shield spell, mobility, a decent ranged attack with a rider like Ray of Frost, melee cantrips), get the Warlock benefits pretty early too (excellent ranged attack, Devil's Sight, 2/short rest spell slots for Shield/Wrathful Smite/Shield of Faith/Sanctuary/Cure Wounds/Expeditious Retreat/whatever), get the Paladin aura early, and get access to Revive/Aura of Healing not much behind schedule.

Obviously you fall behind in your Sorcerer spell progression, and you don't get Animate Objects until 20th level, but that's fine.

[Citan]

You can start as a Paladin and play mostly pure from levels 1-7, taking a single level of Sorcerer somewhere along the way. Then invest levels 8 and 9 in Warlock before returning to Paladin for levels 1-12. Levels 13-20 are all Sorcerer.

This way you get the important benefits of Sorcerer early (Tides of Chaos, Shield spell, mobility, a decent ranged attack with a rider like Ray of Frost, melee cantrips), get the Warlock benefits pretty early too (excellent ranged attack, Devil's Sight, 2/short rest spell slots for Shield/Wrathful Smite/Shield of Faith/Sanctuary/Cure Wounds/Expeditious Retreat/whatever), get the Paladin aura early, and get access to Revive/Aura of Healing not much behind schedule.

Obviously you fall behind in your Sorcerer spell progression, and you don't get Animate Objects until 20th level, but that's fine.
100% agreed with this.
Warlock's EB will only overcome Extra Attack with its 3rd ray at 11th, and while Hex is great, you have many other good spells to spend the Concentration on as Paladin.


ps2: In 99% of all cases, multiclassing into paladin is not worth it (or it has a strictly better alternative), unless you are going for at least 5/6 paladin levels.

99%? I'm sorry, but seriously, no. You're very much undervaluing Paladin.
Gaining a bunch of buff/healing/utility spells (Paladin 2) can help greatly a Sorcerer to survive and be a backup healer/controller.
Paladin's Oath Devotion or Vengeance improve very much builds based on Sharp/GWM (although Paladin doesn't get Archery, if UA content allowed, he gets CQS).
And smites. :)

Sure, Action Surge is great, as is Constitution. But for a gish that sees his spellcasting mainly for smite or one-shot spells (Cure Wounds, Command, Fireball) and usually hammers his blade to win, Paladin is very good.

It all depends on character objective and playstyle.
I agree wholeheartdly on the fact that best dip is at level 6 though, but it does not mean lvl 2/3 are worthless.