Tyranny of Dragons: Behold the train wreck

[Alejandro]

Yesterday our party finally made it to the lair of Chulth (sp?) the green dragon. We're level 10. Party consisted of:

- Fighter/paladin (me)
- Monk, four elements type
- Barbarian
- Wizard (evoker)
- Rogue (assassin)

We managed to not alert the dragon's spies in the forest, and entered the actual lair undetected, until some of the guards hiding within saw and challenged us, asking who goes there. The barbarian responds immediately with a challenging threat that reveals us as enemies (I was attempting to fool them into thinking we were bringing tribute to the dragon) and the guards flee in several directions, alerting the lair.

We ended up having to battle all the cultists, with their warlock and wizard, and their four ettins and the green dragon, all at once. We are currently badly mangled, the dragon is invisible from the wizard, and we're in trouble. Monk has no ki points left, blew them all on Fangs of the Fire Snake instead of...well, anything that would help actually survive the massive attacks (Dodge anyone?) I still have all my smites and battlemaster abilities, but only a third of my HP. Barbarian is at single digits and hiding underwater (mage gave us all water breathing before we entered) rogue is hiding but the dragon knows where he is, and the mage is trying to survive by Blinking and placing a wall of force over some of us so we can drink a few healing potions.

I do have a helm of brilliance, and barring any other options, I plan to either bombard the dragon with Prismatic Spray and hope it botches something bad before it kills me, or attempt to blow the helmet up on purpose with myself.

Any other grand ideas for blazes of glory? :)

[hymer]

Any other grand ideas for blazes of glory? :)

Decide the barbarian is an enemy agent sent to keep your group under surveillance and subtly sabotage your efforts, who is now hiding and waiting for the TPK to finish, so he can go back out and continue to do the dragon's bidding? :smallfrown:

[Alejandro]

Decide the barbarian is an enemy agent sent to keep your group under surveillance and subtly sabotage your efforts, who is now hiding and waiting for the TPK to finish, so he can go back out and continue to do the dragon's bidding? :smallfrown:

He isn't. The player just thought it would be a funny and appropriate thing for his fairly stupid barbarian to do. He did manage to kill a ton of cultists, but the dragon tore him to almost bits.

[RulesJD]

Yesterday our party finally made it to the lair of Chulth (sp?) the green dragon. We're level 10. Party consisted of:

- Fighter/paladin (me)
- Monk, four elements type
- Barbarian
- Wizard (evoker)
- Rogue (assassin)

We managed to not alert the dragon's spies in the forest, and entered the actual lair undetected, until some of the guards hiding within saw and challenged us, asking who goes there. The barbarian responds immediately with a challenging threat that reveals us as enemies (I was attempting to fool them into thinking we were bringing tribute to the dragon) and the guards flee in several directions, alerting the lair.

We ended up having to battle all the cultists, with their warlock and wizard, and their four ettins and the green dragon, all at once. We are currently badly mangled, the dragon is invisible from the wizard, and we're in trouble. Monk has no ki points left, blew them all on Fangs of the Fire Snake instead of...well, anything that would help actually survive the massive attacks (Dodge anyone?) I still have all my smites and battlemaster abilities, but only a third of my HP. Barbarian is at single digits and hiding underwater (mage gave us all water breathing before we entered) rogue is hiding but the dragon knows where he is, and the mage is trying to survive by Blinking and placing a wall of force over some of us so we can drink a few healing potions.

I do have a helm of brilliance, and barring any other options, I plan to either bombard the dragon with Prismatic Spray and hope it botches something bad before it kills me, or attempt to blow the helmet up on purpose with myself.

Any other grand ideas for blazes of glory? :)

You need a better wizard.

Adult Dragon = Huge size, so he's approximately 15ftx15ft.

Wall of Force in a sphere = 20ftx20ft.

Just WoF the stupid dragon, kill off the cultist and such in 10 mins, then focus fire the dragon down.

[Alejandro]

The wizard wanted to do that. The GM said the dragon was too big to put in said sphere.

[Inevitability]

Declare your allegiance to the dragon (and pray you roll well enough on deception/persuasion), stab your party members, and try to not get killed until you can safely flee and get your allies resurrected?

As a slightly less unpaladinic alternative, Lay on Hands yourself, charge the dragon, and try to get a good nova off, which you should be able to do. If you deal enough damage before you get killed, the dragon might just die. Don't care about battlemaster abilities except for the extra damage; the dragon will probably shrug them off anyway.

[Alejandro]

Declare your allegiance to the dragon (and pray you roll well enough on deception/persuasion), stab your party members, and try to not get killed until you can safely flee and get your allies resurrected?

As a slightly less unpaladinic alternative, Lay on Hands yourself, charge the dragon, and try to get a good nova off, which you should be able to do. If you deal enough damage before you get killed, the dragon might just die. Don't care about battlemaster abilities except for the extra damage; the dragon will probably shrug them off anyway.

I have used lay on hands, second wind, and a healing potion on myself to get back to 33 HP. I would absolutely love to charge the dragon and Action Surge/Smite/Menacing Attack the bejesus out of it before dying. I even have a scimitar of speed. :D but... it is 40' up a wall and I cannot reach it.

[Sir cryosin]

Does no one have any ranged weapons? Because you can just attack from range behind cover.

[Alejandro]

Does no one have any ranged weapons? Because you can just attack from range behind cover.

We all have ranged weapons. :) But we cannot do enough damage with them to keep up with the breath weapons and fireballs.

And it's invisible.

[Sir cryosin]

We all have ranged weapons. :) But we cannot do enough damage with them to keep up with the breath weapons and fireballs.

And it's invisible.

Damage is damage. The wizard doesn't have color spray or see invisible?

[Addaran]

At that point, the logical solution would be to surrender and swear allegiance to the dragon cult. If you're lucky, you might convince him to go eliminate some of the other dragons "so he gets more power" and anyway, those blue/red/etc dragons said greens were wimps.

But you're a paladin....so you're the only one in the team who can't really do that. =(


You did manage to kill a lot of minions, so a tactical retreat might be a good idea. You'll probably have to sacrifice someone, wich would fit your blaze of glory statement (and the concept of paladin dying to save his team). If 4/5 survive, they will be better then initially when they attack again. Knowledge of his tactics, less enemies and an idea of the area. They just have to find a way to ressurect you or hire someone before the fight. =P Worst scenario would be the dragon leaving the lair with his loot and going to another ally.

[Darksun]

Heroically sacrifice everyone but one person (going to assume the rogue) in an attempt to distract the cult and the dragon while the rogue runs off with your gold.... in order to buy you all true resurrections (as I doubt becoming dragon poop will qualify as having the body.)

You could even combine this with some of the other suggestions like surrendering and pretending fealty while the one "screw you guys, I'm going home, I'm not joining them"

Though if I was dm and was playing the green dragon I would say "Oh you surrender? that's nice" *chomp*. 24 hours later you are that thing I mentioned above. However, it wouldn't matter if the one who got away has the means and inclination to get you a true Resurrection. Hell you could even go back to the npc parties and make a "oh my group has valuable experience and knowledge, you should pay for the resurrection" which may or may not work.

Regardless, all of the above presents interesting social interactions which needn't stray too far from the combat.

[Inevitability]

Shout PAZUZU PAZUZU PAZUZU, pray your DM knows an obscure rule on summoning that particular demon lord (fun fact: a paladin's summons never go unanswered), and ask Pazuzu to get your party the hell out of there in exchange for a piece of your immortal soul.

Yes, it'll result in your corruption, probably fall, and possible return as an Oathbreaker. But it'll also let the party escape. And isn't sacrificing your own soul to protect your friends the most paladinesque thing to do?

[Rhaegar14]

Shout PAZUZU PAZUZU PAZUZU, pray your DM knows an obscure rule on summoning that particular demon lord (fun fact: a paladin's summons never go unanswered), and ask Pazuzu to get your party the hell out of there in exchange for a piece of your immortal soul.

Yes, it'll result in your corruption, probably fall, and possible return as an Oathbreaker. But it'll also let the party escape. And isn't sacrificing your own soul to protect your friends the most paladinesque thing to do?

Last I knew that was from 3.5e. Did they update him in Out of the Abyss?

[Ackbladder]

We managed to not alert the dragon's spies in the forest, and entered the actual lair undetected, until some of the guards hiding within saw and challenged us, asking who goes there. The barbarian responds immediately with a challenging threat that reveals us as enemies (I was attempting to fool them into thinking we were bringing tribute to the dragon) and the guards flee in several directions, alerting the lair.



Well, sounds like you bit off more than you can chew and are pretty much borked. I'd need to see a map to know exactly what your options are, but I'd look at an all out withdrawal (flee). If I were your character, I'd remove my pack and throw it to the barbarian hiding underwater shouting "don't let the dragon get the magic Orb or the Star of Waterdeep!", then run away up a tunnel trying to keep cover between me and the dragon, or out of range of the breath weapon. Hopefully the monk, rogue and wizard bug out as well (plus if in different directions).

OTOH, given the fact that no one is dead yet, I suspect your GM is one of those who are loathe to kill PC's, so likely you'll get away with playing like morons and gutting it out, and miraculously end up at 1hp each or something.

[Rhaegar14]

Well, sounds like you bit off more than you can chew and are pretty much borked. I'd need to see a map to know exactly what your options are, but I'd look at an all out withdrawal (flee). If I were your character, I'd remove my pack and throw it to the barbarian hiding underwater shouting "don't let the dragon get the magic Orb or the Star of Waterdeep!", then run away up a tunnel trying to keep cover between me and the dragon, or out of range of the breath weapon. Hopefully the monk, rogue and wizard bug out as well (plus if in different directions).

OTOH, given the fact that no one is dead yet, I suspect your GM is one of those who are loathe to kill PC's, so likely you'll get away with playing like morons and gutting it out, and miraculously end up at 1hp each or something.

Emphasis mine. While overall a retreat is definitely advisable (if possible), throwing the Barbarian under the bus and running like Hell is TOTALLY the kind of thing a Paladin would do. :smalltongue:

Also, you're looking at it from a purely tactical perspective. These characters have been together for ten levels, they're probably friends by now. There is plenty of in-character reason for him not to want to abandon any of his allies, even the one that messed up.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I wrote a long post about how important it is to use guile, and being sneaky, and planning ahead, and how you wouldn't be in this mess if your group had bothered to think before acting, but you know what? Screw that - telling other people how to game isn't my thing. Do you guys have fun playing the way you're currently playing? (I mean, aside from the "train wreck" in progress.) Does it usually work out for you? Because if it does, you should keep doing it. Anyone can have an off-day once in a while.

On the other hand, if this isn't just an "off day" and this kind of train wreck happens frequently, your group might want to re-think their playing style just a bit.

At the moment, all I can tell you is Run Away! Run Away! Everything's gone completely sideways.

[MrStabby]

Well train wrecks can be great fun, especially if they are the result of good roleplay. If anyone has any alternative characters they want to role up now might be a good time. Have a chat within the party about who wants to cover for whom escaping. Whatever you do, make it fun - fun is more important than survival.

You have any invisibility? Any chance of an illusion of a character to use as a decoy? Any pass without trace?

[Alejandro]

I wrote a long post about how important it is to use guile, and being sneaky, and planning ahead, and how you wouldn't be in this mess if your group had bothered to think before acting, but you know what? Screw that - telling other people how to game isn't my thing. Do you guys have fun playing the way you're currently playing? (I mean, aside from the "train wreck" in progress.) Does it usually work out for you? Because if it does, you should keep doing it. Anyone can have an off-day once in a while.

On the other hand, if this isn't just an "off day" and this kind of train wreck happens frequently, your group might want to re-think their playing style just a bit.

At the moment, all I can tell you is Run Away! Run Away! Everything's gone completely sideways.

We did, sir, use guile, be sneaky, and plan ahead. When we encountered some of the dragon's first minions in the forests around his lair, we went out of our way to destroy them all and not let any escape to warn the dragon of our approach. We met a druid along the way, whom we assisted without asking for anything in return, and she rewarded us with small charms that prevented the dragon-charmed small creatures of the forest from betraying our approach to said dragon. When we found the lair itself, we sent the rogue and the monk in first to silently reconnoiter. When the guards finally did notice us, I attempted to trick them into thinking we were other members of the Cult of the Dragon (my PC, in fact, is an ex member...it's a good story that involves a lot of vengeance. :) )

It was at this point that the barbarian shouted at said guards that we were champions of Bahamut, here to destroy them all. That is when it fell apart.

The DM is not loathe to kill PCs. My PC was down and at 2 of 3 failed death saves before another PC got me back up. It's only luck that I got that, otherwise I would have already died holding the enemy back.

Our wizard is an evoker, and we have not found many extra spells to capture in this (published) module, so he mostly has the evocation spells he has chosen at level up, along with a few others. He does have one more Wall of Force in the magazine, and we would like to use it to trap the dragon in a sphere of force in order to escape/buy time to wipe everything else out/heal, but the GM has expressed that she does not approve of said spell being able to trap the dragon for 10 min without any apparent saving throw.

The rogue's player has already indicated he has no intention of dying, and will flee without us if necessary. He does have one ace in his rogue-y sleeve, a bolt of dragonslaying, and he intends to shoot the dragon in the face with it if he gets a chance. He also has inspiration to use. However, the dragon being invisible cancels out that advantage, and we would prefer he take the shot with two d20s' chance of hitting, as it is rather important. Hence we need time.

Our only other resource is the PCs of the players who did not attend the session: our Life cleric, and our dragonborn barbarian. If those players appear next time and can join the battle, they might be able to buy us time. If the GM will not let us put the dragon in a Sphere of Force, we will put as many PCs as possible under a Dome of Force, along with the cleric, take the 10 min to heal everyone and let the dragon's invisibility wear off, and then throw everything we have at him when the spell ends. We likely won't be able to get every PC under the dome in time, so someone is likely to die. The barbarian is the farthest away, and I cannot say I will be sad if he gets crushed at this point. The dragon is known to want to destroy and eat elves and eladrin most of all, so we know it will go after our (elf) wizard and (eladrin) monk next. Hence, we will attempt to shield the wizard, and hope the dragon eats the monk. It's a four elements monk anyway... not that effective. :/

[RulesJD]

If your DM ignores the rules and wont let you WoF Sphere the dragon, then just use the 10 10ftx10ft option to make a wall that pins him up against the wall he's climbed. Just have it at an angle so it goes from just below where he is to the top of the cavern at an angle so he can't get through. Same effect.

[Alejandro]

If your DM ignores the rules and wont let you WoF Sphere the dragon, then just use the 10 10ftx10ft option to make a wall that pins him up against the wall he's climbed. Just have it at an angle so it goes from just below where he is to the top of the cavern at an angle so he can't get through. Same effect.

The wizard wanted to try that earlier. The GM said it was not possible to arrange the squares in a way to trap the dragon. I do not believe we will be able to use WoF offensively on the dragon, hence we plan to use it defensively for us to buy time.

I do have access to the spells Daylight, Fireball, Wall of Fire, and Prismatic Spray via my helmet. Daylight won't help, obviously. I'm happy to launch fireballs at the dragon; and create a wall of fire to hurt the dragon, but it won't stop his movement. I can also attempt to Prismatic Spray the dragon, but I don't expect much. He can use his legendary saves to freely save against any of the stuff that would really help were I so lucky to roll it (like sending the dragon to another plane) and most of the rest is just damage, possibly even damage the dragon is immune to (poison.)

[RulesJD]

The wizard wanted to try that earlier. The GM said it was not possible to arrange the squares in a way to trap the dragon. I do not believe we will be able to use WoF offensively on the dragon, hence we plan to use it defensively for us to buy time.

I do have access to the spells Daylight, Fireball, Wall of Fire, and Prismatic Spray via my helmet. Daylight won't help, obviously. I'm happy to launch fireballs at the dragon; and create a wall of fire to hurt the dragon, but it won't stop his movement. I can also attempt to Prismatic Spray the dragon, but I don't expect much. He can use his legendary saves to freely save against any of the stuff that would really help were I so lucky to roll it (like sending the dragon to another plane) and most of the rest is just damage, possibly even damage the dragon is immune to (poison.)

If that's the case then it's your DM causing the TPK, not the party. I get why DMs don't like WoF, but it is what it is. A dragon 40ft up a cave wall (which is near the ceiling of that encounter), can easily be trapped inside.

But if he really doesn't want to, then just have the party retreat back (Wizard Ready Action -> WoF if he doesn't have the movement and someone else carries him further on their turn) into one of those side passages or the exit. WoF the path behind you and you're good to go for 10 minutes as you escape to regroup. Your DM will likely get pissy and have the dragon fly away, but oh well.

[JakOfAllTirades]

We did, sir, use guile, be sneaky, and plan ahead. When we encountered some of the dragon's first minions in the forests around his lair, we went out of our way to destroy them all and not let any escape to warn the dragon of our approach. We met a druid along the way, whom we assisted without asking for anything in return, and she rewarded us with small charms that prevented the dragon-charmed small creatures of the forest from betraying our approach to said dragon. When we found the lair itself, we sent the rogue and the monk in first to silently reconnoiter. When the guards finally did notice us, I attempted to trick them into thinking we were other members of the Cult of the Dragon (my PC, in fact, is an ex member...it's a good story that involves a lot of vengeance. :) )

It was at this point that the barbarian shouted at said guards that we were champions of Bahamut, here to destroy them all. That is when it fell apart.

The DM is not loathe to kill PCs. My PC was down and at 2 of 3 failed death saves before another PC got me back up. It's only luck that I got that, otherwise I would have already died holding the enemy back.

Our wizard is an evoker, and we have not found many extra spells to capture in this (published) module, so he mostly has the evocation spells he has chosen at level up, along with a few others. He does have one more Wall of Force in the magazine, and we would like to use it to trap the dragon in a sphere of force in order to escape/buy time to wipe everything else out/heal, but the GM has expressed that she does not approve of said spell being able to trap the dragon for 10 min without any apparent saving throw.

The rogue's player has already indicated he has no intention of dying, and will flee without us if necessary. He does have one ace in his rogue-y sleeve, a bolt of dragonslaying, and he intends to shoot the dragon in the face with it if he gets a chance. He also has inspiration to use. However, the dragon being invisible cancels out that advantage, and we would prefer he take the shot with two d20s' chance of hitting, as it is rather important. Hence we need time.

Our only other resource is the PCs of the players who did not attend the session: our Life cleric, and our dragonborn barbarian. If those players appear next time and can join the battle, they might be able to buy us time. If the GM will not let us put the dragon in a Sphere of Force, we will put as many PCs as possible under a Dome of Force, along with the cleric, take the 10 min to heal everyone and let the dragon's invisibility wear off, and then throw everything we have at him when the spell ends. We likely won't be able to get every PC under the dome in time, so someone is likely to die. The barbarian is the farthest away, and I cannot say I will be sad if he gets crushed at this point. The dragon is known to want to destroy and eat elves and eladrin most of all, so we know it will go after our (elf) wizard and (eladrin) monk next. Hence, we will attempt to shield the wizard, and hope the dragon eats the monk. It's a four elements monk anyway... not that effective. :/

All very well played, Sir. Sorry to hear the Barbarian messed up such a good plan. (It worked for our group.) I recommend feeding him to the dragon and running like crazy.

[Drackolus]

Hell you could even go back to the npc parties and make a "oh my group has valuable experience and knowledge, you should pay for the resurrection" which may or may not work

"Yeah, I bet they know all about dragon intestines now."

[JumboWheat01]

If a blze of glory is required, cleary one must go with the LEROOOOOOOOOOY JENKINNNNNNS method.

[RaynorReynolds]

If that's the case then it's your DM causing the TPK, not the party. I get why DMs don't like WoF, but it is what it is. A dragon 40ft up a cave wall (which is near the ceiling of that encounter), can easily be trapped inside.

But if he really doesn't want to, then just have the party retreat back (Wizard Ready Action -> WoF if he doesn't have the movement and someone else carries him further on their turn) into one of those side passages or the exit. WoF the path behind you and you're good to go for 10 minutes as you escape to regroup. Your DM will likely get pissy and have the dragon fly away, but oh well.

This. Your DM has the wrong attitude. They are upset that the wizard figured out a way for your party to survive (or maybe even win), so she changing the way a spell works mid-game.

[Rhaegar14]

This. Your DM has the wrong attitude. They are upset that the wizard figured out a way for your party to survive (or maybe even win), so she changing the way a spell works mid-game.

Plus I think she's failing to see that Wall of Force is by no means a guaranteed that-dragon-is-out-for-ten-minutes button. If it's trapped by Wall of Force, an effect which requires concentration, that dragon is going to pretty promptly order any of its remaining minions to focus fire on the Wizard. Even with Con save proficiency and Warcaster, hit him enough times and that Wizard will either fall unconscious or fail a concentration check eventually.

But even without the DM arbitrarily deciding it doesn't work that way, using it to cover the retreat is probably a better plan at this point.

[RickAllison]

I think the issue was more for when they weren't almost dead, i.e. when having the dragon trapped would let them engage the cultists without a giant lizard raining death on their heads. Still good to have now, though!

[Envyus]

Wall of Force would not work on the dragon anyway in my opinion. A Dragons Neck and Tail are too long to not get caught in the Wall of Force's walls. Which means that it would not trap him. As it it would shunt him off to the side.
Most huge creatures by description are actually too large to fit in a wall of force.

So you would not be able to use it to trap it but it still can be used defensively.

[SharkForce]

Wall of Force would not work on the dragon anyway in my opinion. A Dragons Neck and Tail are too long to not get caught in the Wall of Force's walls. Which means that it would not trap him. As it it would shunt him off to the side.
Most huge creatures by description are actually too large to fit in a wall of force.

So you would not be able to use it to trap it but it still can be used defensively.

nope.

wall of force is very clear.

1) you decide where to shove things if their space intersects the wall. not the target. the caster. if something has a neck too long to comfortably fit, well, that's too bad, because your neck is getting shoved inside the wall anyways.
2) the only way anything gets shunted anywhere is if their SPACE intersects the wall. it does not matter if they can reach beyond their space with their head, neck, arms, legs, tail, wings, tentacles, or other body parts. if their space does not intersect the wall (and dragons, generally speaking, do not), they can be stuffed inside the wall.

the spell you are thinking of is forcecage, and it does not work on dragons for the reasons you have described. wall of force though? it doesn't care if you can reach past it. all it cares about is your space. and if your space is 15x15, well, too bad, you're still stuck.

[Ralanr]

Clearly this needs to end with a powder keg of justice.

[Icewraith]

If you can nova the dragon down you might force it to retreat. However, wall of force at the start of the encounter and then protect the Wizard is how we beat this one. For future reference, might I suggest Bigby's hand if your DM won't let you use Wall of Force? It's not automatically effective, but it's very versatile and you can still use it to grapple the Dragon. If your DM objects, point out that the hand itself is Large size, a hand the size of the room you're probably sitting in shouldn't have any issues grappling a Huge creature, especially one with a long neck and wings. If there was a creature attached to the hand it would probably be Gargantuan.

The dragon may be invisible, but it's a giant scaly winged lizard. It's not quiet unless it has the hide skill and used its action to do so.

[SharkForce]

bigby's hand *can* be guaranteed effective. if all you want from it is to keep the dragon from getting closer, the hand does that with perfect success rate for almost every monster in the game. again, no save, so the dragon can't use a legendary save to get past it.

[Alejandro]

Actually, our GM may allow us to use the WoF on the dragon in spherical form after all. I am beginning to think that doing so is a better option than encasing the party in it and healing, then counter attacking. I think we can wipe out the rest of the cultists while the dragon is stuck, as all the ettins are down, as are most of the cultists. There's just a warlock/wizard/wyrmspeaker casting spells at us, and a few tougher melee cultists. Minus the dragon for a time, we should have a shot.

We can definitely shield and guard the wizard; and he's already got Blink up anyway, so he may get lucky and not be attack-able at times.

[Alejandro]

If you can nova the dragon down you might force it to retreat. However, wall of force at the start of the encounter and then protect the Wizard is how we beat this one. For future reference, might I suggest Bigby's hand if your DM won't let you use Wall of Force? It's not automatically effective, but it's very versatile and you can still use it to grapple the Dragon. If your DM objects, point out that the hand itself is Large size, a hand the size of the room you're probably sitting in shouldn't have any issues grappling a Huge creature, especially one with a long neck and wings. If there was a creature attached to the hand it would probably be Gargantuan.

The dragon may be invisible, but it's a giant scaly winged lizard. It's not quiet unless it has the hide skill and used its action to do so.

Actually, we had another funny idea that I suppose might actually work. Our wizard casts a Wall of Force dome with us under it, then uses that time to cast Leomund's Tiny Hut as a ritual, inside the dome. We take a long rest in the hut, right there in the dragon's lair. :D

[SharkForce]

Actually, we had another funny idea that I suppose might actually work. Our wizard casts a Wall of Force dome with us under it, then uses that time to cast Leomund's Tiny Hut as a ritual, inside the dome. We take a long rest in the hut, right there in the dragon's lair. :D

casting a spell with a casting time of more than 1 action requires concentration. you can't concentrate on wall of force *and* cast leomund's tiny hut with the same character. better to stick with giving yourself some time away from the dragon, clean up the mooks, and maybe take a short breather if you have any healing spells available.

[Alejandro]

casting a spell with a casting time of more than 1 action requires concentration. you can't concentrate on wall of force *and* cast leomund's tiny hut with the same character. better to stick with giving yourself some time away from the dragon, clean up the mooks, and maybe take a short breather if you have any healing spells available.

Gotcha. Well, it was funny. Instead we'll just have to either restrain the dragon or shield ourselves with the WoF.

[Envyus]

nope.

wall of force is very clear.

1) you decide where to shove things if their space intersects the wall. not the target. the caster. if something has a neck too long to comfortably fit, well, that's too bad, because your neck is getting shoved inside the wall anyways.
2) the only way anything gets shunted anywhere is if their SPACE intersects the wall. it does not matter if they can reach beyond their space with their head, neck, arms, legs, tail, wings, tentacles, or other body parts. if their space does not intersect the wall (and dragons, generally speaking, do not), they can be stuffed inside the wall.

the spell you are thinking of is forcecage, and it does not work on dragons for the reasons you have described. wall of force though? it doesn't care if you can reach past it. all it cares about is your space. and if your space is 15x15, well, too bad, you're still stuck.

You can decide were to shove things if they interesect the wall. But if they don't fit in the space it still does not matter you have to shove them out of the area of the wall. If even a hand would go out of the Walls bounds then they have to shove the entire creature somewhere else not just the hand. Plus the the trap you inside version of Wall of Force is only a 10 ft radius. A Huge creature can't fit in it no matter what.

[RulesJD]

You can decide were to shove things if they interesect the wall. But if they don't fit in the space it still does not matter you have to shove them out of the area of the wall. If even a hand would go out of the Walls bounds then they have to shove the entire creature somewhere else not just the hand. Plus the the trap you inside version of Wall of Force is only a 10 ft radius. A Huge creature can't fit in it no matter what.

You are just so, so, so very wrong.

A dragon by definition "fits" in a 15ftx15ft cube. Can't argue with that one.

Next, look up "Squeeze" rules and then we'll care about whether a hand intersecting the wall stops it (hint: it doesn't). Your hand would get shoved back into the creature because a hand can move. If it intersected a Gargantuan creature, sure then there's nowhere for the hand to go. But that's not the question here.

Lastly, geometry lesson time: 10ft radius = 20ft diameter. A 15ft cube will fit in a 20ft diameter sphere/cube.

[Envyus]

You are just so, so, so very wrong.

A dragon by definition "fits" in a 15ftx15ft cube. Can't argue with that one.

Next, look up "Squeeze" rules and then we'll care about whether a hand intersecting the wall stops it (hint: it doesn't). Your hand would get shoved back into the creature because a hand can move. If it intersected a Gargantuan creature, sure then there's nowhere for the hand to go. But that's not the question here.

Lastly, geometry lesson time: 10ft radius = 20ft diameter. A 15ft cube will fit in a 20ft diameter sphere/cube.

It's a Hemisphere. It's not tall enough.

[RickAllison]

You are just so, so, so very wrong.

A dragon by definition "fits" in a 15ftx15ft cube. Can't argue with that one.

Next, look up "Squeeze" rules and then we'll care about whether a hand intersecting the wall stops it (hint: it doesn't). Your hand would get shoved back into the creature because a hand can move. If it intersected a Gargantuan creature, sure then there's nowhere for the hand to go. But that's not the question here.

Lastly, geometry lesson time: 10ft radius = 20ft diameter. A 15ft cube will fit in a 20ft diameter sphere/cube.

1) Not if its an ancient dragon (I'm not sure which one this is, so the point might be moot).

2) Not quite. By the distance formula (E^2=A^2+B^2+C^2), the corners of the cube would be 13 feet away from the center, so it would be outside. Remember that spheres are the most efficient in terms of volume/surface area, so you have to be careful with assumptions.

EDIT: And just so it's clear, the distance was calculated with E^2=3*(7.5 feet)^2, so it does account for being from the center of the cube and not the sides.

[gfishfunk]

Lastly, geometry lesson time: 10ft radius = 20ft diameter. A 15ft cube will fit in a 20ft diameter sphere/cube.

I was going to let this pass, but you were a bit too smug with the 'geometry lesson' bit. While what you say is intuitive, it is actually wrong.

a 15' by 15' cube will not fit in a 20' diameter sphere. BUT HOW!?!? ONE NUMBER IS SMALLER THAN THE OTHER!?!?

With a square that is 15' by 15', Pythagoras (that sly devil!) would tell us that the diagonal of the square is 21.213', going from one corner to the opposite corner of any square on the surface of the cube. That is also before we delightfully apply it again to the cube to determine how far apart any two corners of the cube that do not share a plane on the surface of the cube. Thus, at its widest (or tallest, or deepest), the cube has a maximum length of 25.9806'.

So, no. You are wrong and you should not talk down to people.

[Lindonius]

I was going to let this pass, but you were a bit too smug with the 'geometry lesson' bit. While what you say is intuitive, it is actually wrong.

a 15' by 15' cube will not fit in a 20' diameter sphere. BUT HOW!?!? ONE NUMBER IS SMALLER THAN THE OTHER!?!?

With a square that is 15' by 15', Pythagoras (that sly devil!) would tell us that the diagonal of the square is 21.213', going from one corner to the opposite corner of any square on the surface of the cube. That is also before we delightfully apply it again to the cube to determine how far apart any two corners of the cube that do not share a plane on the surface of the cube. Thus, at its widest (or tallest, or deepest), the cube has a maximum length of 25.9806'.

So, no. You are wrong and you should not talk down to people.

I still think a huge creature would fit inside a 20' diameter sphere if you take p191 of PHB into account when discussing creature size. It isn't physically 15' by 15', it just "controls a 15' by 15' area" meaning that the creature is physically smaller than 15' by 15'.....

"A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively
controls in combat, not an expression of its physical
dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet
wide, for example, but it does control a space that
wide."

[RickAllison]

I still think a huge creature would fit inside a 20' diameter sphere if you take p191 of PHB into account when discussing creature size. It isn't physically 15' by 15', it just "controls a 15' by 15' area" meaning that the creature is physically smaller than 15' by 15'.....

"A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively
controls in combat, not an expression of its physical
dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet
wide, for example, but it does control a space that
wide."

And that is a very compelling argument of why it should actually work.

[CantigThimble]

I still think a huge creature would fit inside a 20' diameter sphere if you take p191 of PHB into account when discussing creature size. It isn't physically 15' by 15', it just "controls a 15' by 15' area" meaning that the creature is physically smaller than 15' by 15'.....

"A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively
controls in combat, not an expression of its physical
dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet
wide, for example, but it does control a space that
wide."

However the spell doesn't actually care how large the creature is, just its space. From the SRD:

"If the wall cuts through a creature’s space when it appears, the creature is pushed to one side of the wall (your choice which side)."

[Envyus]

I still think a huge creature would fit inside a 20' diameter sphere if you take p191 of PHB into account when discussing creature size. It isn't physically 15' by 15', it just "controls a 15' by 15' area" meaning that the creature is physically smaller than 15' by 15'.....

"A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively
controls in combat, not an expression of its physical
dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet
wide, for example, but it does control a space that
wide."

In creatures huge and above this means while they only control that space they are actually larger then that. The Tarrasque for example is 50 ft tall and 70 ft long. And adult dragon is roughly the size of a small house. With their massive wings long neck and tail they won't fit in a 15 by 15 area. A Frost Giant which is 21 ft tall for an example of an another huge creature that won't fit.

[Arial Black]

Is the player of the barbarian sorry at all?

While you don't want to tell other people how to play, why is it okay that even though the entire party wanted to approach by stealth/subterfuge, one guy gets to turn Clan Ninja into The Keystone Cops?

[Lindonius]

However the spell doesn't actually care how large the creature is, just its space. From the SRD:

"If the wall cuts through a creature’s space when it appears, the creature is pushed to one side of the wall (your choice which side)."

Ok so I think we can RAW this. The spell description says if it intersects the creature's SPACE it won't fit. And as established a 15' by 15' (cubic?) area geometrically doesn't fit inside a 20' diameter sphere, ergo the OP's DM was right all along.

Edit: Although you could argue that because the caster gets to choose which "side of the wall" the creature moves to, and a sphere really only has an inSIDE and an outSIDE and I choose that the dragon moves to the inSIDE of the WoF sphere. Because he definitely physically fits in there.

I think there's a bit more mileage in this one yet. ;)

[SharkForce]

unfortunately for the dragon, we know it is perfectly capable of cramming into a 10x10 area. and since the caster of the wall of force decides where to shove you, it doesn't matter if you won't fit *comfortably*. if the wall intersects your space, the caster of the wall shoves you wherever it pleases.

[Lindonius]

unfortunately for the dragon, we know it is perfectly capable of cramming into a 10x10 area. and since the caster of the wall of force decides where to shove you, it doesn't matter if you won't fit *comfortably*. if the wall intersects your space, the caster of the wall shoves you wherever it pleases.

lol ninjaed ;)

Actually if we go down this road, knowing that it's physically possible for creatures to fit into areas of a smaller size (again there are rules for this in the PHB) and that the caster chooses where the target goes. Couldn't you also squeeze a gargantuan foe in there? :smallbiggrin:

[Vogonjeltz]

Actually, we had another funny idea that I suppose might actually work. Our wizard casts a Wall of Force dome with us under it, then uses that time to cast Leomund's Tiny Hut as a ritual, inside the dome. We take a long rest in the hut, right there in the dragon's lair. :D

Mutually exclusive use of Concentration problem with that plan.

I'd advise you to take their Wizard down, that will drop invisibility (which is also concentration). If it's not greater invisibility, then it's probably not a problem as the Dragon wouldn't be able to attack without revealing itself anyway.

[RulesJD]

Sorry, lacked clarification on several points. In D&D Geometery, using the Adventure League rules for diagonals = same distance, yes a 15ft Cube fits in a 20ft sphere, because for all intents and purposes the 20ft Sphere is a 20ft cube.

Also, all the other points made (squeezing, Sphere would have more open space to shove into, et. al.

[RickAllison]

Sorry, lacked clarification on several points. In D&D Geometery, using the Adventure League rules for diagonals = same distance, yes a 15ft Cube fits in a 20ft sphere, because for all intents and purposes the 20ft Sphere is a 20ft cube.

Also, all the other points made (squeezing, Sphere would have more open space to shove into, et. al.

And this is why I prefer my hexes :smallbiggrin: I'm not willing to get into the whole debate on board distance vs. real distance, but there is a good reason why my group uses Phythagoras so much.

[CantigThimble]

And this is why I prefer my hexes :smallbiggrin: I'm not willing to get into the whole debate on board distance vs. real distance, but there is a good reason why my group uses Phythagoras so much.

Pythagoras is so stupidly OP. I mean c'mon, universally applicable mathematical relationships? The prerequisites are like 9 int and you get UNLIMITED uses! That practically makes algebra pact warlocks obsolete, they should have at LEAST made it 1/short rest.

[RickAllison]

Pythagoras is so stupidly OP. I mean c'mon, universally applicable mathematical relationships? The prerequisites are like 9 int and you get UNLIMITED uses! That practically makes algebra pact warlocks obsolete, they should have at LEAST made it 1/short rest.

That made me laugh significantly more than it probably should have :smallbiggrin:

[tieren]

I was going to let this pass, but you were a bit too smug with the 'geometry lesson' bit. While what you say is intuitive, it is actually wrong.

a 15' by 15' cube will not fit in a 20' diameter sphere. BUT HOW!?!? ONE NUMBER IS SMALLER THAN THE OTHER!?!?

With a square that is 15' by 15', Pythagoras (that sly devil!) would tell us that the diagonal of the square is 21.213', going from one corner to the opposite corner of any square on the surface of the cube. That is also before we delightfully apply it again to the cube to determine how far apart any two corners of the cube that do not share a plane on the surface of the cube. Thus, at its widest (or tallest, or deepest), the cube has a maximum length of 25.9806'.

So, no. You are wrong and you should not talk down to people.

I don't follow your math.

I reasoned that from the center of the sphere to the points where any corners of the cube interect the sphere must be equal to the radius of the sphere. If you drew two such radii to two corners of the cube on the same side you would have a right triangle with two sides equal to the radii of the cube and one side (the hypotenuse) which would be one edge of the cube itself.

Since we know the radius is 10 feet, we can culculate the length of the hypotenuse using pyythagoras' theorem as 14.14 feet (approximately) so the biggest cube that would fit in a 20 foot diameter sphere would be 14.14 feet to side (edge).

I don't know where you got the 25.98 feet.

[SharkForce]

I don't follow your math.

I reasoned that from the center of the sphere to the points where any corners of the cube interect the sphere must be equal to the radius of the sphere. If you drew two such radii to two corners of the cube on the same side you would have a right triangle with two sides equal to the radii of the cube and one side (the hypotenuse) which would be one edge of the cube itself.

Since we know the radius is 10 feet, we can culculate the length of the hypotenuse using pyythagoras' theorem as 14.14 feet (approximately) so the biggest cube that would fit in a 20 foot diameter sphere would be 14.14 feet to side (edge).

I don't know where you got the 25.98 feet.

25.98 feet is the distance between 2 opposite corners on a cube that has 15' sides. he was simply calculating the longest length on the 15' cube to prove that (since it is greater than the diameter of the sphere) it couldn't fit inside.

[gfishfunk]

I don't follow your math.

I reasoned that from the center of the sphere to the points where any corners of the cube interect the sphere must be equal to the radius of the sphere. If you drew two such radii to two corners of the cube on the same side you would have a right triangle with two sides equal to the radii of the cube and one side (the hypotenuse) which would be one edge of the cube itself.

Since we know the radius is 10 feet, we can culculate the length of the hypotenuse using pyythagoras' theorem as 14.14 feet (approximately) so the biggest cube that would fit in a 20 foot diameter sphere would be 14.14 feet to side (edge).

I don't know where you got the 25.98 feet.

Sure. I could totally be wrong. Let me write it out and see if this works. My math was based on the cube, not the sphere.



The cube is perfect: 15' x 15' x 15'. I'm going to first look at one of the faces of the cube, a 15' x 15' square, a 2d object. Normally, in D&D, we only 'see' this aspect because the grid system is not 3d but 2d for these kinds of effects. So, I'm first going to find the hypotenuse of the surface of one of the squares.


(15 * 15) + (15 * 15) = square root of x
450 = square root of x (21.213)

A 15' by 15 square has a hypotenuse of 21.213', but that is only on any one of the six 2d surfaces of the cube and does not account for the 3d aspect of the cube. To get the length of a line between any one corner of the cube and the farthest corner in that cube, you can make a new 2d rectangle using the hypotenuse that from the first square (21.213) and one of the 15' sides.

Another way to look at it is to cut the cube in half along the hypotenuse that was just measured out. This will create two matching 3d shapes with five faces: two triangles on opposite ends that are 15' x 15' x 21.213', two squares from the original cube that are 15' x 15', and a new rectangle along the hypotenuse that is 15' x 21.213' - the hypotenuse of that last square will give us the maximum distance between two points in the original cube.


(15 * 15) + (21.213 * 21.213) = square root of y
(225) + (449.9914) = square root of y
674.9914 = square root of y, 25.9806

Edit: D&D. Because math.

[Alejandro]

Our GM says that yes, the dragon can fit inside. Any Huge size creature can.

Our wizard, who ultimately makes the call as they're the only one that can do it, seems to have decided they will trap the dragon in the sphere, and we hope to take out the surviving cultists, heal ourselves, and then take on the dragon by itself.

[Telok]

Our GM says that yes, the dragon can fit inside. Any Huge size creature can.

Our wizard, who ultimately makes the call as they're the only one that can do it, seems to have decided they will trap the dragon in the sphere, and we hope to take out the surviving cultists, heal ourselves, and then take on the dragon by itself.

Cool, you now have a Lesser Forcecage spell you can use to no-save imprison anything huge or smaller for ten minutes.

[CantigThimble]

Cool, you now have a Lesser Forcecage spell you can use to no-save imprison anything huge or smaller for ten minutes.

I mean, that IS already how the spell already works except for the huge bit being under some controversy. Though it is weird how redundant that is with forcecage.

[RulesJD]

I mean, that IS already how the spell already works except for the huge bit being under some controversy. Though it is weird how redundant that is with forcecage.

1. Forcecage doesn't require concentration (HUGE difference)

2. You can shoot/magic into a Forcecage. Can't do that with a WoF sphere***


*** - Disclaimer. You can abuse the WoF half-dome to have it float 1/2 inch off the ground to trap and enemy but still allow spells to go underneath. Bad for use against a dragon because breath weapon.

[RickAllison]

1. Forcecage doesn't require concentration (HUGE difference)

2. You can shoot/magic into a Forcecage. Can't do that with a WoF sphere***


*** - Disclaimer. You can abuse the WoF half-dome to have it float 1/2 inch off the ground to trap and enemy but still allow spells to go underneath. Bad for use against a dragon because breath weapon.

Also bad for anything that has a burrow speed or that can destroy the ground :smallbiggrin:

[Forum Explorer]

I don't know the map, but my suggestion is to retreat from the room, and wall of force the entrance so the dragon can't follow you, and then simply retreat. Also has the benefit of preventing any minions from following you as well.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I don't know the map, but my suggestion is to retreat from the room, and wall of force the entrance so the dragon can't follow you, and then simply retreat. Also has the benefit of preventing any minions from following you as well.


IIRC the lair has multiple exits, so the dragon (and others) might get out, and catch up with the PCs later.

[Forum Explorer]

IIRC the lair has multiple exits, so the dragon (and others) might get out, and catch up with the PCs later.

How much later? They only need to buy enough time to hide away and rest.

[Alejandro]

We are not fleeing. We already know the lair has multiple exits for the dragon (only an idiot dragon would get itself cornered, anyway) and we can't block them all. If we did all make it outside, the dragon will hunt us down from high above. Much better to make a stand in a slightly more enclosed area.

[Chauncymancer]

unfortunately for the dragon, we know it is perfectly capable of cramming into a 10x10 area. and since the caster of the wall of force decides where to shove you, it doesn't matter if you won't fit *comfortably*. if the wall intersects your space, the caster of the wall shoves you wherever it pleases.

Right but it's space will *still* be intersecting the sphere, so you have to choose again, and KEEP choosing until you find a side you can place the dragon on where the sphere and the spaces don't overlap (hint, on the outside) you can't shunt into a second shunt.

[Chauncymancer]

Sorry, lacked clarification on several points. In D&D Geometery, using the Adventure League rules for diagonals = same distance, yes a 15ft Cube fits in a 20ft sphere, because for all intents and purposes the 20ft Sphere is a 20ft cube.

Also, all the other points made (squeezing, Sphere would have more open space to shove into, et. al.

Nope. There's a diagram of the 10ft square in your PHB. It looks like this (X= not part of the sphere).
X00X
0000
0000
X00X
A 15ft cube looks like this
000
000
000
As you can see, the second does not fit in the first, because 10ft spheres round their corners down instead of up.

[Sir cryosin]

Does the wizard know the spell rope trick because if he does. Ya'll can hop in there rest up pop out guns a blazing. Oh and you might want to tell the wizard to cast detect magic to see the dragon then have his cast dispel magic on said dragon. Then guns a blaze.

[Christian]

I still think a huge creature would fit inside a 20' diameter sphere if you take p191 of PHB into account when discussing creature size. It isn't physically 15' by 15', it just "controls a 15' by 15' area" meaning that the creature is physically smaller than 15' by 15'.....

"A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively
controls in combat, not an expression of its physical
dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet
wide, for example, but it does control a space that
wide."

Of course! And this is why a 6' tall human is size Large!

Wait, no, he's not. The space of creature does not limit its maximum dimension to the size of the space; it's a rough-and-ready approximation for how much space it takes up on the battlefield. A particularly large python or anaconda could easily be over 20 feet long, but it's still a Huge constrictor snake and has a 15' space.

There are two DM judgment calls to make when using this spell to trap an opponent, IMO: 1) Is there a possible 20' diameter sphere that would enclose the opponent as his body is currently configured, and 2) does the spell's ability to push creatures apply to *parts* of creatures (and if so, to what extent)?

If the snake, or the dragon, is currently curled/coiled up, then 1) is definitely the case. If the DM decides it's not, that's when things get fun. The term 'push' normally applies to the creatures entire location, moving its entire body around the board. If you decide the spell is limited to doing this, then it can't make a creature curl up to fit into that limited space, so you're out of luck. Pushing the creature left so that it fits on the right side just means more of its body is beyond the left edge of the sphere, etc.

Personally, I think I'd rule that you can totally push just the dragon's tail or whatever and fit it into the spell area. But I also think that's a ruling, not RAW or even RAI. The important thing would be to rule consistently once you settled on something.

[Christian]

In D&D Geometery, using the Adventure League rules for diagonals = same distance, yes a 15ft Cube fits in a 20ft sphere, because for all intents and purposes the 20ft Sphere is a 20ft cube.

That's the 4th Edition rule. That approximation only applies to movement in 5th Edition, and only if you're using the simplest optional grid rules. (Which are not, as far as I'm aware, part of the AL official ruleset.)


Nope. There's a diagram of the 10ft square in your PHB.

3rd Edition. Don't have this in the 5th Edition PHB.

Grid rules are a miniscule afterthough in 5th Edition. There's a sidebar on pg. 192 of the PHB with about 500 words giving about the simplest possible ruleset for movement on a grid, but says nothing about creature spaces or areas of effect. And then there's a couple of pages in the DMG starting on page 250; it includes some diagrams for things like flanking, but the area of effect rule just says that if a non-rectilinear area of effect covers part of a square, that square is in the area if more than half of it is covered--leaving the DM to get out his compass and see if he can eyeball it, or use the plane geometry and intro calculus textbooks he no doubt has handy to calculate it out with certainty. Or, if he's really lucky, he can pull out his 3rd edition PHB and look at the diagrams Chauncymancer is referring to, which were calculated using the rule from the 5th Edition DMG. (Not to suggest that Jonathan Tweet had a 5th Edition DMG on hand when he wrote the 3rd Edition PHB. That would be ridiculous, obviously. He's probably just precognitive.)

[RulesJD]

That's the 4th Edition rule. That approximation only applies to movement in 5th Edition, and only if you're using the simplest optional grid rules. (Which are not, as far as I'm aware, part of the AL official ruleset.)



3rd Edition. Don't have this in the 5th Edition PHB.

Grid rules are a miniscule afterthough in 5th Edition. There's a sidebar on pg. 192 of the PHB with about 500 words giving about the simplest possible ruleset for movement on a grid, but says nothing about creature spaces or areas of effect. And then there's a couple of pages in the DMG starting on page 250; it includes some diagrams for things like flanking, but the area of effect rule just says that if a non-rectilinear area of effect covers part of a square, that square is in the area if more than half of it is covered--leaving the DM to get out his compass and see if he can eyeball it, or use the plane geometry and intro calculus textbooks he no doubt has handy to calculate it out with certainty. Or, if he's really lucky, he can pull out his 3rd edition PHB and look at the diagrams Chauncymancer is referring to, which were calculated using the rule from the 5th Edition DMG. (Not to suggest that Jonathan Tweet had a 5th Edition DMG on hand when he wrote the 3rd Edition PHB. That would be ridiculous, obviously. He's probably just precognitive.)

Thanks for pointing out that it's a 3rd ed rule, I couldn't find that diagram in the PHB.

AL = diagonal is 5ft for all purposes. Which I rather enough because it makes things way, way easier to keep track of as a DM etc.

[RickAllison]

Thanks for pointing out that it's a 3rd ed rule, I couldn't find that diagram in the PHB.

AL = diagonal is 5ft for all purposes. Which I rather enough because it makes things way, way easier to keep track of as a DM etc.

That certainly seems odd, but more power to them! What really makes it weird is when flight/3D gets mixed in.

AL vs. Reality
Cardinal (N, S): 5 v. 5
Secondary (NE, etc.): 5 v. 7.07
Tertiary (3D diagonal): 5 v. 8.66

Naturally, this would be a nightmare to track, as you pointed out, but it adds up quickly. Remember the most wonderful equation for grids: d=sqrt(x^2+y^2+z^2). Takes seconds to put into a calculator and gives you exactly what you need to know. If you need to figure from an effect's distance, switch d with the appropriate variable and subtract the others instead of adding. All moot when it comes to AL, however :smallwink:

[Alejandro]

Well, since I am sure some people would like it, here is the after action report:

We called in every player we could, of the full group. Eight level 10 PCs engaged Chuth and his remaining minions and spellcasters.

Four PCs were killed, and the surviving four fled successfully.

The lizard man barbarian (who had been the one that alerted the whole lair to us) was deepest within the encounter, and was already at low HP, and no cleric was able to get within range of him. He was killed. Our other barbarian, a dragonborn, fought to the death against the cultists, tried to hurt the dragon, but was never able to make a melee attack on him, and died. Our four elements monk, who had already used up all ki points on some mostly ineffective four elements powers, was slaughtered by the dragon. Most decisively, our wizard never got a chance to take a turn. The dragon focused all its attacks on him first (apparently Chuth hates elves and destroys them first) and the wizard never got any spells off at all (the plan had been, put the dragon in a Wall of Force bubble, take out all the cult enemies, then the dragon, as noted above) and was knocked out, then picked up by the dragon and flown elsewhere in the lair where we could not revive or save him, and he bled out.

Survivors included our party rogue, who immediately bailed at the start of the encounter and waited outside the lair for any of us to flee and catch up with him, our Arcana cleric, who was badly mangled and Melded into Stone to disappear and recover, our Life cleric, and me, the fighter/paladin. I never actually got any attack rolls on the dragon, but damaged it as best I could by spamming Fireball and Prismatic Spray at it from my helm of brilliance while trying to hold ground for the clerics. I finally called a retreat when it was clear we had lost (losing the wizard damned us immediately) and we have regrouped away from the lair, having at least done enough damage to Chuth to stop him pursuing us.

[RulesJD]

Well, since I am sure some people would like it, here is the after action report:

We called in every player we could, of the full group. Eight level 10 PCs engaged Chuth and his remaining minions and spellcasters.

Four PCs were killed, and the surviving four fled successfully.

The lizard man barbarian (who had been the one that alerted the whole lair to us) was deepest within the encounter, and was already at low HP, and no cleric was able to get within range of him. He was killed. Our other barbarian, a dragonborn, fought to the death against the cultists, tried to hurt the dragon, but was never able to make a melee attack on him, and died. Our four elements monk, who had already used up all ki points on some mostly ineffective four elements powers, was slaughtered by the dragon. Most decisively, our wizard never got a chance to take a turn. The dragon focused all its attacks on him first (apparently Chuth hates elves and destroys them first) and the wizard never got any spells off at all (the plan had been, put the dragon in a Wall of Force bubble, take out all the cult enemies, then the dragon, as noted above) and was knocked out, then picked up by the dragon and flown elsewhere in the lair where we could not revive or save him, and he bled out.

Survivors included our party rogue, who immediately bailed at the start of the encounter and waited outside the lair for any of us to flee and catch up with him, our Arcana cleric, who was badly mangled and Melded into Stone to disappear and recover, our Life cleric, and me, the fighter/paladin. I never actually got any attack rolls on the dragon, but damaged it as best I could by spamming Fireball and Prismatic Spray at it from my helm of brilliance while trying to hold ground for the clerics. I finally called a retreat when it was clear we had lost (losing the wizard damned us immediately) and we have regrouped away from the lair, having at least done enough damage to Chuth to stop him pursuing us.

Yeah, this is exactly why I hate your DM, and I don't even play with him. He knew your plan going in (WoF the dragon) so he meta gamed the hell out of it to focus fire down your wizard. Bad DMing. From here on out, just don't tell your DM you plans.

[Alejandro]

The GM (my significant other) fully endorsed the plan and said it was our best shot. However, she also said explicitly that Chuth is described as hating elves and wanting to kill and eat them before anything else, and since our wizard was an elf... that's what Chuth did. Our Life cleric tried to keep the wizard standing, but simply could not heal him faster than the dragon stomped him. Our Arcana cleric, for whatever reason, did not also attempt to heal the wizard, that might have made a difference. At least he was trying to hurt the dragon with his wizard spells.

Also, is it just us, or are Arrows of Slaying (Dragons) not actually that great at slaying dragons? You can miss entirely, and if you hit, the dragon is guaranteed to save against the arrow unless you have somehow depleted all its legendary saves (when it already has great saves to begin with.) It seems that a simple Fireball is far more effective.

[Forum Explorer]

The GM (my significant other) fully endorsed the plan and said it was our best shot. However, she also said explicitly that Chuth is described as hating elves and wanting to kill and eat them before anything else, and since our wizard was an elf... that's what Chuth did. Our Life cleric tried to keep the wizard standing, but simply could not heal him faster than the dragon stomped him. Our Arcana cleric, for whatever reason, did not also attempt to heal the wizard, that might have made a difference. At least he was trying to hurt the dragon with his wizard spells.

Also, is it just us, or are Arrows of Slaying (Dragons) not actually that great at slaying dragons? You can miss entirely, and if you hit, the dragon is guaranteed to save against the arrow unless you have somehow depleted all its legendary saves (when it already has great saves to begin with.) It seems that a simple Fireball is far more effective.

Sounds like you got fair warning on her countermeasures.

Yeah, but they are better then normal arrows, and they the dragon will likely burn a legendary save (or keep one in reserve if you are using them) because failing that save, even if it's a low chance isn't worth the risk.

[Vogonjeltz]

Thanks for pointing out that it's a 3rd ed rule, I couldn't find that diagram in the PHB.

AL = diagonal is 5ft for all purposes. Which I rather enough because it makes things way, way easier to keep track of as a DM etc.

If I recall correctly they go more into the optional grid rules in the DMG (including some pictograms).

[Addaran]

Yeah, this is exactly why I hate your DM, and I don't even play with him. He knew your plan going in (WoF the dragon) so he meta gamed the hell out of it to focus fire down your wizard. Bad DMing. From here on out, just don't tell your DM you plans.


In the official adventures, some of the important enemies have their targeting preference noted. The last in line, small sized one, the one with the biggest armor, followers of X, etc.