Working with a stupid idea: Druid archer

[Zaq]

Let's get the disclaimers out of the way.

Yes, I understand that Druids have much better things to do than fiddle around with arrows.

Yes, I understand that Clerics and especially Archivists make better "caster archers."

Yes, I understand that the Ranger and the Scout are your go-to classes for "vaguely nature-related archery dudes."

Let me repeat: I understand that Druids have way better things to do and that this is in no way the optimal use of their powers.

But with all that said, I'm curious how you would proceed if you set out with the goal of making a Druid archer. This isn't for an actual game—I'm just curious what we can come up with to optimize one of the most powerful classes in the game in a direction that the class doesn't naturally support especially well.

Since this isn't for an actual game, I don't have a specific level range in mind, but in general, I'm always more interested in characters that come online early than in characters that can't do their main trick until much later. Excessive cheese is probably unnecessary unless it does something unusually hilarious (it's not that interesting to optimize a suboptimal concept by just dumping early 9ths or feedback loops or anything like that on it, you know?). I'm not going to say that we have to go straight Druid 20, but the more actual Druid levels we involve, the better.

I'm intentionally leaving it vague what form this archery will take. If you can make it work with an actual bow and arrow, great. If you need to do something a little weirder, I'm certainly willing to listen. I'm okay with spells being important (we are still talking about a Druid, after all), but if you just want to use spells as your primary source of ranged attacks, make sure that you've got a way to not run out before the end of the day. (Like, Produce Flame is a great way to use ranged attacks on a Druid, but if you want that to be your bread and butter, find a way to get enough to last you all day—and if you just want to Persist it, make sure you find a way to deal with having a hand occupied by fire all day. It may not harm "your equipment," but that still means you can't touch anything else with that hand. Speaking as someone who has broken an arm quite a few times, working one-handed all day isn't a trivial matter, even if the occupied hand isn't going to actually hurt your own equipment.)

I mean, some parts are obvious. Every character who relies on ranged attacks needs Precise Shot (which comes with the feat tax of Point Blank Shot). Druids are WIS-based casters, so Zen Archery is almost a given. Druids aren't naturally proficient with any projectile weapons, so we either need to optimize around throwing darts/daggers/shortspears or get proficiency with something else (which could mean a feat or a dip or a racial choice). Unless we find something really unusual, we're likely to want Rapid Shot and similar archery-related feats (though that's less immediately critical than Precise Shot). Archery can easily eat up most or all of your feats if you let it.

I'm toying with the idea of dipping in Soulbow. Yes, yes, shock and gasp at losing 3 caster levels, but this is already a suboptimal character, and it'd be nice to add WIS to damage, and I think (though I'm not 100% sure about this) that you might be able to shoot mind arrows even when Wild Shaped, depending on exactly what it means to "have a hand free." That part's up for discussion, but if you're convinced that animals who don't explicitly have humanlike "hands" can't use mind arrows, then just scrap the Soulbow part and move on (I don't want that to be the bulk of the discussion here).

I know that Druids have at least one explicit archery-boosting spell in the form of Wind Tunnel. I know that archery spells aren't their typical wheelhouse, but if there's one, there's likely to be others lurking around somewhere, right?

What we do with Wild Shape is an interesting question. If we can find a way of making ranged attacks work in Wild Shape (by finding a form that can somehow use ranged weapons, by getting enough ranged attack spells that we can rely on our magic, by using Soulbow or something similar to not rely on a physical weapons, etc.), then that's obviously super cool, since we can easily become an annoying flying ranged attacker, or we can use forms with naturally high DEX, or whatever. If we can't make that work, there's no shortage of things to trade away Wild Shape for; I know that's usually a sucker's bet at best, but again, we're intentionally going in a weird and suboptimal direction, so we might find something that's conducive to Druidic archery.

Anyway, let me know what you come up with. I repeat, I'm fully aware that this isn't an optimal concept (like, at all), but that's part of the fun. Druids are, after all, one of the most powerful classes in the game, bar none, so I think it'll be interesting to see what they look like when you take them in a direction they're not usually supposed to go.

[darksolitaire]

Tough one. Maybe a level of Scout and Swift Avenger feat for skirmish-type archery, or six levels of Druid to qualify for Prestige Ranger. Since they're taking stuff from Scout and Ranger respectively they're not very elegant.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Tough one. Maybe a level of Scout and Swift Avenger feat for skirmish-type archery, or six levels of Druid to qualify for Prestige Ranger. Since they're taking stuff from Scout and Ranger respectively they're not very elegant.
Swift Avenger is 100% broken-stupid-amazing Dragon content-- it pretty much gives a Scout full Wild Shape or a Druid full Skirmish for a single feat and level.

Shiba Protector (Oriental Adventures) costs three crap feats to enter, but gives you Wis to attack and damage (as a bonus, no less!) in a single level. If you take the Urban Companion ACF, you can get Alertness through your pseudo-familiar, though you lose animal companion power that way.

[nedz]

Have you looked at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286818-Bird-of-Prey-%28Tippy-s-Awesome-Flying-Sniper%29) one ?

[Darrin]

Elf takes care of the bow proficiency. Druid 8 brings large-size ape into play:


http://img3.goodfon.su/wallpaper/big/b/5b/gorilla-luchnik-obezyana-luk.jpg


Hmm. Too bad girallon is a magical beast, otherwise dual longbows. MoMF could do dual longbows.

[Segev]

I'm going to step outside my usual mechanical analysis and just talk about fluff, because this amuses me.

When I think "druid archer," I think of a D&D-style druid whose main schtick is to pull his arrows from the living woods around him. Perhaps he has special toxins from their native saps and juices, with leaves for fletchings. He's akin to the never-unarmed because he can "grow" a bow and arrows from the environs.

I'm seeing him use his Wild Shape abilities to get into sniping positions, and then a longbow to strike from a distance. Perhaps his magics also lend themselves to empowering Treants and animate trees to wield giant longbows which fire in tandem with him.

Edit to add: Mechanically, go Elf if you're not multiclassing to Ranger; it gets you the proficiencies in bows.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You need to be human for Shiba Protector. It's probably the biggest boost to hit and damage you'll get, especially with Owl's Insight.
You can just spend your human bonus feat on EWP:Greatbow.

If you take Otherworldly or otherwise get a type other than humanoid you can take the Fangshields sub levels, most importantly the "Wild Shape (Hands)" ability. That should let you use your (sizing) Greatbow while wildshaped into a high-Str form.

[WhamBamSam]

Elf takes care of the bow proficiency. Druid 8 brings large-size ape into play:

Hmm. Too bad girallon is a magical beast, otherwise dual longbows. MoMF could do dual longbows.The Fangshields substitution levels will give you hands for archery in whatever form you assume for Wild Shape, so we could just go with the usual Desmodu Hunting Bat or Legendary Eagle or whatever. You'll probably not even want to bother with Zen Archery (maybe if your means of Fangshields qualification is Anthro Bat or something/once you have Owl's Insight online).

As esoteric forms go, a Planar Shepherd could Wild Shape into an Arrow Demon, but that's perhaps not a rabbit hole we want to go down.




Totemist 2/Druid 18 with the Manticore Belt or Incarnate 1/Druid 19 with Dissolving Spittle/Sighting Gloves/Chaos Incarnate Avatar aren't quite Archers, but they are ranged builds and as lost caster levels and burned feats go they could be worse. Share Soulmeld is a nice thing.

Piggy's Archer Build Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?284283-Piggy-Knowles-Archer-Build-Thread) is always worth a look for ranged builds. He mentions a good number of Druid spells, though usually in the context of Ranger or Chameleon archers. Tippy's Bird of Prey (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286818-Bird-of-Prey-(Tippy-s-Awesome-Flying-Sniper)) is also a Druid/Soulbow, among other things.

[Quertus]

Elf for bow proficiency and arcane archer. Want to get BAB 16+ by level 20 for maximum RoF. Worst part (for the person who played this build) was that, even spending a feat, it was hard to keep the animal companion relevant.

[Zaq]

Tough one. Maybe a level of Scout and Swift Avenger feat for skirmish-type archery, or six levels of Druid to qualify for Prestige Ranger. Since they're taking stuff from Scout and Ranger respectively they're not very elegant.

Prestige Ranger doesn't actually do much that's useful for us, though. Like, it can get us Manyshot as a bonus feat, but since we had to spend two feats on Track and Endurance, that isn't much of a benefit unless we have difficulty meeting the stat prereqs. (And Manyshot isn't that good of a feat unless you're a Swift Hunter using it as a prereq for Greater Manyshot.) I guess dipping a level or two to get Ranger-specific spells on the Druid list might work.


Swift Avenger is 100% broken-stupid-amazing Dragon content-- it pretty much gives a Scout full Wild Shape or a Druid full Skirmish for a single feat and level.

Shiba Protector (Oriental Adventures) costs three crap feats to enter, but gives you Wis to attack and damage (as a bonus, no less!) in a single level. If you take the Urban Companion ACF, you can get Alertness through your pseudo-familiar, though you lose animal companion power that way.

Huh. Good thing I don't generally play with Dragon. That sounds crazy.

Shiba Protector would probably cost too much to get into. Druids don't naturally get any bonus feats (there are some ACFs that get bonus feats that can be Chaos Shuffled away, but I don't want to do that if I don't have to), and Archery eats a ton of feats before we even get into the prereqs for Shiba Protector.


Have you looked at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286818-Bird-of-Prey-%28Tippy-s-Awesome-Flying-Sniper%29) one ?

Cute concept. Druid isn't really the guiding force behind it, though, and it comes online pretty late. Like, Druid is definitely involved, but that's not the kind of thing I'm thinking of when I think about a "Druid archer."


Elf takes care of the bow proficiency. Druid 8 brings large-size ape into play:

Hmm. Too bad girallon is a magical beast, otherwise dual longbows. MoMF could do dual longbows.

If we're using a race to get weapon proficiency, neraph would be better than elf just because they avoid the CON penalty. (Neraph Camouflage is also pretty hilarious if we happen to end up using thrown weapons instead of bows.)

Is it ever explicitly stated that apes can wield manufactured weapons, or is this a "the rules don't say I can't" moment?


I'm going to step outside my usual mechanical analysis and just talk about fluff, because this amuses me.

When I think "druid archer," I think of a D&D-style druid whose main schtick is to pull his arrows from the living woods around him. Perhaps he has special toxins from their native saps and juices, with leaves for fletchings. He's akin to the never-unarmed because he can "grow" a bow and arrows from the environs.

I'm seeing him use his Wild Shape abilities to get into sniping positions, and then a longbow to strike from a distance. Perhaps his magics also lend themselves to empowering Treants and animate trees to wield giant longbows which fire in tandem with him.

Edit to add: Mechanically, go Elf if you're not multiclassing to Ranger; it gets you the proficiencies in bows.

Yeah, it's kind of a neat concept. I don't know how heavily I'd personally play up the "grow weapons from the forest" aspect just because that kind of limits you to staying in foresty areas, but that would really depend on the game as a whole, and since this isn't for a specific game, why not?


You need to be human for Shiba Protector. It's probably the biggest boost to hit and damage you'll get, especially with Owl's Insight.
You can just spend your human bonus feat on EWP:Greatbow.

If you take Otherworldly or otherwise get a type other than humanoid you can take the Fangshields sub levels, most importantly the "Wild Shape (Hands)" ability. That should let you use your (sizing) Greatbow while wildshaped into a high-Str form.

Sounds like Shiba Protector is incompatible with Fangshields, then, but it sounds like a neraph would work just fine, no? Been a while since I've actually looked at the Fangshields levels, so I'll have to dig that up.

[WhamBamSam]

Sounds like Shiba Protector is incompatible with Fangshields, then, but it sounds like a neraph would work just fine, no? Been a while since I've actually looked at the Fangshields levels, so I'll have to dig that up.A Human can take the Otherworldly feat per the Celestial-Attended Birth option in Champions of Valor. That would make you Outsider (Human) covering your bases for both Shiba Protector and (I think) the Fangshields levels (I know the Ranger ones only require non-humanoid), and also give you your weapon proficiency.

[daremetoidareyo]

Question #1: How important do you want wildshape to be?
Question #2: what is maximum number of non druid levels acceptable?
Question #3: Archery specifically, as in bows and arrows, or is any ranged weapon specialization an option?

Should be able to play with it pretty potently from there.

[Flickerdart]

Gloves of Man allow any creature with paws or tentacles to wield weapons normally. An octopus with four pairs could be a frightening archer.

[Zaq]

Question #1: How important do you want wildshape to be?
Question #2: what is maximum number of non druid levels acceptable?
Question #3: Archery specifically, as in bows and arrows, or is any ranged weapon specialization an option?

Should be able to play with it pretty potently from there.

1) If we can make archery work in Wild Shape, then let's do that, both because it's interesting and because it has the chance to be powerful. (Plus, nothing says Druid more than Wild Shape. I mean, the spells are arguably more powerful overall, and you can't ignore the animal companion, but to me, Wild Shape is what makes a Druid a Druid.) But I'm also willing to look at options that trade away Wild Shape if we've got a good reason to do so.
2) The fewer non-Druid levels the better, but it doesn't have to be all Druid all the time.
3) Convince me! I'm defaulting to a bow and arrow, but I'm certainly willing to look at something less traditional (thrown weapons, nonconventional weapons, etc.). As long as it's interesting, though, I'm all for it. Just make sure that we aren't losing the feel of the Druid who primarily makes ranged attacks.

Like I said, this is all just a thought experiment rather than something that needs to be nailed down to one specific build that's going to end up in an actual game. I mean, if we choose to make it a full build, then I'm certainly not going to stop anyone from doing so, but I'm also interested in seeing if there are multiple ways for us to fulfill this character archetype.


Gloves of Man allow any creature with paws or tentacles to wield weapons normally. An octopus with four pairs could be a frightening archer.

That's kind of scary. I mean, equipping them is going to be bizarre. Wilding Clasps will work for the ones on your humanoid-form hands, but what about the other three pairs? You'd probably have to put them on after Wild Shaping, which means you have to be in octopus form pretty much all the time if you're in an area where you might end up in combat, and that might be tricky if you're on land.

Still, if you can make it work, wielding four bows is kind of a crazy mental image. That's certainly taking advantage of Druid tricks to do something most other folks can't do, that's for sure.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's kind of scary. I mean, equipping them is going to be bizarre. Wilding Clasps will work for the ones on your humanoid-form hands, but what about the other three pairs? You'd probably have to put them on after Wild Shaping, which means you have to be in octopus form pretty much all the time if you're in an area where you might end up in combat, and that might be tricky if you're on land.

Still, if you can make it work, wielding four bows is kind of a crazy mental image. That's certainly taking advantage of Druid tricks to do something most other folks can't do, that's for sure.
That's what air-breathing spells are for! You might go for throwing instead, just to double that number of attacks again. Say, something like

Human Druid 8/Martial Wizard 1/Shiba Protector 1

Feats:
Alertness (Wizard familiar)
Combat Expertise (Wizard bonus)
Endurance (human)
Point-Blank Shot (1st)
Precise Shot (3rd)
Natural Spell (6th)
Multiweapon Fighting (9th)

Giving you eight attacks at... low-ish BAB, but high bonuses, especially if you add in things like Bite of the Wererat. If take a flaw (or a fighter dip, or another two Druid levels) you could get Zen Archery to drive that up considerable. Plus, you know, you're a friggin' octopus machine gun, especially if you pick up Improved Multiweapon Fighting at higher levels. Heck, maybe dip Master Thrower and use Palm Throw to double all that-- you're getting your main damage through Shiba Protector, after all. I like the sound of 32 daggers a round.

[Darrin]

Gloves of Man allow any creature with paws or tentacles to wield weapons normally. An octopus with four pairs could be a frightening archer.

There's also the Opposable weapon property (+1 enhancement) in Masters of the Wild, might be cheaper than the gloves.

[eggynack]

For proficiency, I prefer the environmental weapons lists from dragon 331, particularly grasslands for a shortbow. That opens up your racial choice, enabling you to run fangshields without losing fancy proficiencies.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Is there actually any point getting Precise Shot (and PBS) when you go into Shiba Protector? That & Zen Archery more than make up for the -4 to fire into melee, and you're already incredibly feat starved. I'd say you can do without Rapid Shot with 8 attacks per round, and it doesn't work well with your low BAB anyway.

Instead you could take Aberration Wild Shape and replace the octopus with the Thoon Elder Brain.
It gets 8 attacks too, AC 26 and with Enhance Wildshape Fast Healing 10, a pretty nasty acid attack, immunity to acid, 20ft perfect flight and 60ft darkvision.

I'd actually try to cram in some psionics, because with Metamorphic Transfer you also get telepathy with a 1 mile range. Hello Mindsight, now you no longer need spot checks as long as your weapon has Seeking. A level of Psychic Warrior or Psion with Practiced Manifester as his bonus feat should do that.

[Pale Sun]

(Planar) Druid 10 Planar Shepherd 10 / Region of Dreams / Splitting Seeking Souldrinking Elvencraft Hank Energy Bow / Rapid Shot / Woodland Archer.

Use Planar Bubble. Get 10 full attack actions -> 80 Arrows -> Anytime you miss you get a +4 to your next attacks against the same target. Anytime you hit you also inflict a negative level. You can get a bow with the sizing property and turn into a strong outsider, drop the bow before you tansform and pick it up after to do more damage with your new strength score (and be able to take greater penalties and still hit with Power Shot granted by the Energy Bow).

I can expand this concept if you're interested.

[Bobbybobby99]

Someone might of already said this, but Zen Archery would be a rather good choice to reduce MAD, if you have any.

[Nifft]

Aspect of the Dragon is an alternate class feature from Dragon Magic (p.11). The Druid gives up Wildshape, and instead gains the ability to choose a specific buff from a limited set for 1 hour each, as a Swift action. It's stuff like:
- Grow wings and gain a fly speed (so you can bow-on-the-go at level 5).
- Get +4 Wisdom (untyped), darkvision out to 60 feet, low-light vision, and immunity to sleep effects.

It's not usually better than Wildshape, but for this character concept it might be useful.

[daremetoidareyo]

Octopus has a land speed! RAW the only problem left is the fact that they can't breath air. Luckily, druid has two spells to address this.

3rd level - Air breathing from stormwrack, which is hours per level
2nd level - avoid planar effects, minutes per level,

Octopus has 8 limbs, which means that you can use two foot bows (ROTW) rated at strength 20, and get +7 to damage. The prone attack feat (CW) takes away that -4 to your attack roll, and the Fins to feet spell and multi weapon fighting feat allows you to make two foot bow shots a round. You know, if you wanted to specialize as a part time octopus foot-archer.

Side note: the ink cloud doesn't specify that it can only be used in water...

Consider adding illithidwrought tentacle (underdark) arrows to your archer's ammunition..because improved grab just got weird.

"To use this ability, a giant octopus must hit an opponent of any size with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict."

Ranged grapple checks yo, constrict them with your tentacle arrows...
Not sure how RAW compliant that is...The question becomes: Are tentacles that sprout from your arrows considered tentacles?

I'll come back with more suggestions later.

[Zaq]

One thing that I just realized we have to be careful about is shifting into forms with DEX too low to use archery feats, since many of them have DEX prereqs (and your DEX changes when you Wild Shape). PBS and Precise Shot have no prereqs, and it's not that hard to maintain a 13 DEX for Rapid Shot, so we're probably going to be okay if we don't go for anything more exotic than that, but it's something we need to be aware of. Multiweapon Fighting also requires 13 DEX.


That's what air-breathing spells are for! You might go for throwing instead, just to double that number of attacks again. Say, something like

Human Druid 8/Martial Wizard 1/Shiba Protector 1

Feats:
Alertness (Wizard familiar)
Combat Expertise (Wizard bonus)
Endurance (human)
Point-Blank Shot (1st)
Precise Shot (3rd)
Natural Spell (6th)
Multiweapon Fighting (9th)

Giving you eight attacks at... low-ish BAB, but high bonuses, especially if you add in things like Bite of the Wererat. If take a flaw (or a fighter dip, or another two Druid levels) you could get Zen Archery to drive that up considerable. Plus, you know, you're a friggin' octopus machine gun, especially if you pick up Improved Multiweapon Fighting at higher levels. Heck, maybe dip Master Thrower and use Palm Throw to double all that-- you're getting your main damage through Shiba Protector, after all. I like the sound of 32 daggers a round.

See, this is why I love the Playground. "Hey guys, what can we do with a ranged Druid when Druids usually have no support for ranged?" "I KNOW, we'll turn into an octopus and throw 32 daggers a round!"

The tricky part is figuring out (with minimal GM adjudication) how you're supporting yourself if you're not in water and all 8 of your limbs are involved in throwing things. Wouldn't you at least be prone at that point? I don't want to have to work in two extra feats for Prone Attack if we can at all avoid it.

We would need to have Quick Draw to do that more than once, so just shove in another flaw. Why the hell not, right?


There's also the Opposable weapon property (+1 enhancement) in Masters of the Wild, might be cheaper than the gloves.

I'd have to run the numbers (anyone know offhand what the page numbers are for Gloves of Man and Wilding Clasps?); it's almost certainly easier for bows, though of course it wouldn't work for thrown weapons unless we go Bloodstorm Blade or something.


Is there actually any point getting Precise Shot (and PBS) when you go into Shiba Protector? That & Zen Archery more than make up for the -4 to fire into melee, and you're already incredibly feat starved. I'd say you can do without Rapid Shot with 8 attacks per round, and it doesn't work well with your low BAB anyway.

Instead you could take Aberration Wild Shape and replace the octopus with the Thoon Elder Brain.
It gets 8 attacks too, AC 26 and with Enhance Wildshape Fast Healing 10, a pretty nasty acid attack, immunity to acid, 20ft perfect flight and 60ft darkvision.

I'd actually try to cram in some psionics, because with Metamorphic Transfer you also get telepathy with a 1 mile range. Hello Mindsight, now you no longer need spot checks as long as your weapon has Seeking. A level of Psychic Warrior or Psion with Practiced Manifester as his bonus feat should do that.

Just adding WIS to attack twice isn't that big an advantage if we're eating a –4 for shooting into melee, a –2 for Multiweapon Fighting, possibly another –2 for Rapid Shot, taking a relative penalty for using thrown weapons (so it's hard to get a good enhancement bonus on most of them), and taking a relative penalty for starting with below-average BAB. I don't see how you can call Precise Shot unnecessary because of our high attack bonus in one sentence and then call Rapid Shot a bad idea because of our low attack bonus in the next sentence. We also can't forget that a good chunk of our wealth is going to be taken up with Gloves of Man and/or other ways of actually attacking with weapons while in Wild Shape, so we won't be able to just blow everything on WIS-boosters the way a caster Druid can. Owl's Insight helps, but it doesn't last all day, and 5th level slots aren't cheap.

Thoon Elder Brain is crazy as always, but it comes online pretty late, does it not? We can call that the higher-level equivalent of the octopus trick. Adding psionics will eat up a lot of extra feats (and maybe levels), so we're kinda getting away from "Druid archer" to "generic form-changing archer."


(Planar) Druid 10 Planar Shepherd 10 / Region of Dreams / Splitting Seeking Souldrinking Elvencraft Hank Energy Bow / Rapid Shot / Woodland Archer.

Use Planar Bubble. Get 10 full attack actions -> 80 Arrows -> Anytime you miss you get a +4 to your next attacks against the same target. Anytime you hit you also inflict a negative level. You can get a bow with the sizing property and turn into a strong outsider (Black Slaad is my favorite), drop the bow before you tansform and pick it up after to do more damage with your new strength score (and be able to take greater penalties and still hit with Power Shot granted by the Energy Bow).

I can expand this concept if you're interested.

Eh. I said extreme cheese should be avoided if it doesn't do something especially hilarious, and Planar Shepherd with Region of Dreams and Planar Bubble is both extremely cheesy and extremely old, so to be honest, that's not super impressive. Like, it's powerful, but it's not actually interesting. Sorry.


Someone might of already said this, but Zen Archery would be a rather good choice to reduce MAD, if you have any.

Several someones (including me in the OP), but thanks anyway.


Aspect of the Dragon is an alternate class feature from Dragon Magic (p.11). The Druid gives up Wildshape, and instead gains the ability to choose a specific buff from a limited set for 1 hour each, as a Swift action. It's stuff like:
- Grow wings and gain a fly speed (so you can bow-on-the-go at level 5).
- Get +4 Wisdom (untyped), darkvision out to 60 feet, low-light vision, and immunity to sleep effects.

It's not usually better than Wildshape, but for this character concept it might be useful.

That's kind of what I was thinking of when I originally started musing about giving up Wild Shape for something else.


Octopus has a land speed! RAW the only problem left is the fact that they can't breath air. Luckily, druid has two spells to address this.

3rd level - Air breathing from stormwrack, which is hours per level
2nd level - avoid planar effects, minutes per level,

Octopus has 8 limbs, which means that you can use two foot bows (ROTW) rated at strength 20, and get +7 to damage. The prone attack feat (CW) takes away that -4 to your attack roll, and the Fins to feet spell and multi weapon fighting feat allows you to make two foot bow shots a round. You know, if you wanted to specialize as a part time octopus foot-archer.

Side note: the ink cloud doesn't specify that it can only be used in water...

Consider adding illithidwrought tentacle (underdark) arrows to your archer's ammunition..because improved grab just got weird.

"To use this ability, a giant octopus must hit an opponent of any size with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict."

Ranged grapple checks yo, constrict them with your tentacle arrows...
Not sure how RAW compliant that is...The question becomes: Are tentacles that sprout from your arrows considered tentacles?

I'll come back with more suggestions later.

I'm not convinced that illithidwrought tentacle ammunition would count as a "tentacle attack." Like, if you can sweet-talk a GM into allowing it, godspeed, but it's ambiguous enough that I think the safe answer is to assume it doesn't work unless you get a specific GM allowing it in a specific game.

Anyway, Air Breathing is a given. I'm unsure of the combination of Fins to Feet and Gloves of Man. Also, Fins to Feet specifies that "the target loses any natural attacks based on its tail or tentacles." So I don't think we'd still have 8 hands to work with if we used Fins to Feet. I'm not sure we'd have any hands to work with, truth be told. Footbows are cute, certainly, but I'm not sure if we can actually get both the hands necessary and the feet necessary at the same time (at least on an octopus).

I do think we need to figure out in general what limbs it takes an octopus to move around on land and how many limbs we have free to attack with. They have a RAW land speed, so we just need an Air Breathing spell to get about on land (which is all well and good), but what limbs does that occupy? Sure, we're going to be standing still when we full attack with as many limbs as we can muster, but how many limbs are occupied with making us not be prone while we're attacking? (Yeah, I understand that footbows specify that you're prone if you're not flying, but since I don't think we can simultaneously get hands and feet, let's leave off footbows for now unless we can find an ironclad RAW way to get both usable hands and usable feet.) That seems like a problem we have to address at some point.

Good ideas, though, everyone. Keep 'em coming. This is fun.

[Flickerdart]

That's kind of scary. I mean, equipping them is going to be bizarre. Wilding Clasps will work for the ones on your humanoid-form hands, but what about the other three pairs? You'd probably have to put them on after Wild Shaping, which means you have to be in octopus form pretty much all the time if you're in an area where you might end up in combat, and that might be tricky if you're on land.
You could also take on a cryohydra form, and use a dozen +1 mouthpick daggers to throw.

[Grod_The_Giant]

See, this is why I love the Playground. "Hey guys, what can we do with a ranged Druid when Druids usually have no support for ranged?" "I KNOW, we'll turn into an octopus and throw 32 daggers a round!"

The tricky part is figuring out (with minimal GM adjudication) how you're supporting yourself if you're not in water and all 8 of your limbs are involved in throwing things. Wouldn't you at least be prone at that point? I don't want to have to work in two extra feats for Prone Attack if we can at all avoid it.

We would need to have Quick Draw to do that more than once, so just shove in another flaw. Why the hell not, right?
Cast Fly? Use Eagle's Wings to turn yourself into some sort of winged tentacled monstrosity? Get a helium-filled balloon (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/26/77/f5/2677f5983c25cc78a2ad6503d2eb775e.jpg)? Or just argue that, with Quick Draw, you're only using a few limbs at once and the rest are holding you up.

[Zaq]

You could also take on a cryohydra form, and use a dozen +1 mouthpick daggers to throw.

Cute, though definitely higher-level than I was hoping to look at. And of course you either need Bloodstorm Blade or a way of getting them back after you throw them (getting 12 daggers with a total equivalent enhancement of +2 is not cheap. Getting 12 daggers with a total equivalent enhancement of +3, which is what you'd need to add Returning, is just plain not a good idea).


Cast Fly? Use Eagle's Wings to turn yourself into some sort of winged tentacled monstrosity? Get a helium-filled balloon (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/26/77/f5/2677f5983c25cc78a2ad6503d2eb775e.jpg)? Or just argue that, with Quick Draw, you're only using a few limbs at once and the rest are holding you up.

Fly isn't a Druid spell. Eagle's Wings takes another feat (of which we have vanishingly few), only lasts for an hour, and only grants average maneuverability (meaning that you can't hold still to make a full attack, since average maneuverability requires you to move at least half your speed or stall out). The Quick Draw argument kiiiiiinda works, but it's sketchy.

Speaking of Fly, are there any applicable Druid spells that grant flight with a decent duration and don't change you into a form other than an octopus or whatever? I know that the Druid's method of flying usually involves turning into something with wings (or summoning something with wings on which to ride) rather than just saying "check it, I can fly now." I guess we could ride on something (maybe our animal companion?), but then we have to consider how many limbs are occupied by riding the mount, which is just shifting the problem rather than solving it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Fly isn't a Druid spell. Eagle's Wings takes another feat (of which we have vanishingly few), only lasts for an hour, and only grants average maneuverability (meaning that you can't hold still to make a full attack, since average maneuverability requires you to move at least half your speed or stall out). The Quick Draw argument kiiiiiinda works, but it's sketchy.

Speaking of Fly, are there any applicable Druid spells that grant flight with a decent duration and don't change you into a form other than an octopus or whatever? I know that the Druid's method of flying usually involves turning into something with wings (or summoning something with wings on which to ride) rather than just saying "check it, I can fly now." I guess we could ride on something (maybe our animal companion?), but then we have to consider how many limbs are occupied by riding the mount, which is just shifting the problem rather than solving it.
Let's see... this is weirdly harder than I though.

Wingblast is the best I can find-- 3rd level spell, 1 round/level, 60ft (good) fly speed.
Air Walk, maybe? It doesn't have any clause about falling if you're tripped...
Updraft will toss you straight up for a swift action and a first-level spell. If your CL is more than 7, adding in a Ring of Feather Falling will make sure you have a round when you're still in mid-air.
Fire Wings costs you one pair of arms, but is otherwise pretty much the same as Fly.
Stormrage works, but it's an 8th level spell

Otherwise you could try for list-expanding stuff like Contemplative, or just try to have your companion carry you, if it's big and strong enough. Just sort of dangle and throw as fast as you can.

[Wacky89]

Let's see... this is weirdly harder than I though.

Wingblast is the best I can find-- 3rd level spell, 1 round/level, 60ft (good) fly speed.
Air Walk, maybe? It doesn't have any clause about falling if you're tripped...
Updraft will toss you straight up for a swift action and a first-level spell. If your CL is more than 7, adding in a Ring of Feather Falling will make sure you have a round when you're still in mid-air.
Fire Wings costs you one pair of arms, but is otherwise pretty much the same as Fly.
Stormrage works, but it's an 8th level spell

Otherwise you could try for list-expanding stuff like Contemplative, or just try to have your companion carry you, if it's big and strong enough. Just sort of dangle and throw as fast as you can.

Master Air 2nd level is 90ft (good) fly speed 1round pr level

[Grod_The_Giant]

Master Air 2nd level is 90ft (good) fly speed 1round pr level
Derp. Good one

[Auranghzeb]

My take: Is slightly different but it may work, is an idea I have been working on, i had some desings for a game i'm on, and i created this:

Dwarf Crafty Hunter 6 (barbarian ACF) Deadly Hunter 7 (Druid ACF)

scores: str-any dex-any con-16-18 int-any Wis 16-18 cha-any

feats: point blank shot, precise shot, zen archery, practiced spell caster, nature bond, improved precise shot
With this you have a SAD archer with 4th druid spells a nice animal companion to tank an 11BAB decent fort and will saves and great HP. Wisdom to ac, improved speed, favored enemy full progression, archery combat style and uncanny dodge. Yes, you give up 3 levels of spells. but as you said: there are better and more optimized ways of using a druid than as an archer. and you got very nice spells anyway. Get a few scrolls of owl's insight and there you go.

[Martimus Prime]

Confusing editing aside, I think a druid/barb archer with the right setup could work fine. The trick would be to use those gloves that give creatures hands, a gnome steam bow (AEG) to tolerate varying strength scores, and whatever animal for gives you the best strength score . Your damage output will fall behind that of a scout or rogue dedicated to ranged precision damage, even with sizing weapon/splitting/wield oversize weapon shenanigans, but the visual is hilarious.

[Snowbluff]

I did this a while back. I found that getting into Arcane Archer is valuable with the spells Druid has available.

Druid's can already rage as a Druidic Avenger and maintain wildshape (either for strong gorillas or adding on draconic form for more strength).