[3.5e] Tiny Rogue Build

[ZxxZ]

I was trying to roll up a replacement character for a low level campaign, and I had the idea of a Muckdweller rogue, but I was having some issues making it work with the pathetic strength score that comes with it. The DM is pretty chill with us using whatever splats we can dig up, but most of the people in the party are just using SRD stuff. The build I was thinking of was

Dark Muckdweller Rogue 2, ECL 3
STR: 10 (-6 Racial), total of 4
DEX: 18 (+6 Racial), total of 24
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 12 (-2 Racial), total of 10
CHA: 8 (-2 Racial), total of 6
32 points
Bonus Racial: Weapon Finesse
Level 1 Feat: Either Craven, TWF, or Point Blank Shot

Between the Template, Skill ranks, and size modifier I get +28 to hide, so even with the -20 from sniping I could still lay out a ton of ranged precision damage, but that would fall off really quickly without iterative attacks and my low strength getting in the way of bows. Would it be worth going into melee with something like Travel Devotion and TWF? Or should I move the scores around to get a decent strength and go into something like throwing weapons?

[Zaq]

Melee is generally a bad idea for Tiny Rogues unless/until Confound the Big Folk (Races of the Wild) comes online. No reach = no flanking, which makes melee Rogues very sad.

I'm not sure what the best way around the multiple attacks issue would be (at least so long as you accept the idea that "sniping"/hiding after attacking is a move action, as stated on pg. 76 of the PHB; I've seen arguments that you can hide as part of an attack action, but to be honest, I'm not entirely convinced that actually works, since we have a very clear rule directly stating that hiding after a ranged attack takes a move action). I mean, a long-term solution is Greater Manyshot, but that's not going to come online for a long time.

I don't think thrown weapons are necessarily going to be better than bows (they have the same damage penalty for low STR, but they also require extra feats to make them worthwhile). You might actually look into crossbows; again, you're looking at extra feats which you may or may not be able to easily afford, but if you can indeed afford those extra feats, Crossbow Sniper is pretty cool.

[Ellowryn]

If you want to avoid penalties from size to damage you might want to drop a level of rogue for Warlock which gives you some useful SLA's and a 60ft 1d6 touch attack which you can SA with (I have a low level build lying around here somewhere with rogue/warlock/assassin/unseen seer, let me try and find it.....). Honestly your low con plus template means you are extremely squishy so i would definitely recommend ranged combat.

[ZxxZ]

Crossbow Sniping or Warlock blasting might be what I have to do. Confound the Bigfolk would be good, but I'm worried that it would just take too long to come online, considering that I'd be sitting around sorta useless for a minimum of 5 more levels. I could very well swap around some stuff, with the huge plusses to dex it might be worth saving the points to go for something like

Rogue 1/Warlock 1
STR: 4
DEX: 22
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 10
Which is still 32 points

That leaves me with an average of 13 HP (Warlocks are d4?) and 22 AC. Crossbow Sniper and Hand Crossbow Focus could be the method to go for. Perhaps something like a Daring Outlaw Build? Shame that the racial Weapon Finesse makes the first couple levels of Swash kinda useless.

[thethird]

You can always be a CE Soulborn (2) tibbit to get your cake and eat it.

[ZxxZ]

I think I've found a build I like, keep with the tiny precision damage but with slightly more oomph.

Door Slave #34, Dark Muckdweller
Psionic Rogue 2

STR: 4
DEX: 22
CON: 14
INT: 16
WIS: 10
CHA: 8

FLAW: NONCOMBATANT
FLAW: VULNERABLE
LVL 1: Hidden Talent(Energy Ray)
F1: Craven
F2: Darkstalker
Racial: Weapon Finesse

Hopefully get Incarnated with an Augmented Compression ASAP, not only for the mechanical bonuses, but also for the image of an inch tall gecko thing firing massive brain rays at people's weak spots

EDIT: I'm dumb, Murky Eyed is awful for a ranged build

[HalfQuart]

You could go into Swordsage and the Shadow Blade feat to get Dex to Damage. Problem is that this also requires melee, which will still be complicated because of your size and reach. You could use a Spiked Chain which, according to page 29 of the DMG, seems to allow you to threaten and attack 5' away... but that's 2 feats also. You could use a different reach weapon that doesn't require EWP, but Spiked Chain is the only reach Shadow Hand weapon, and you also need Weapon Finesse to work too.

Or you could get some form of natural attack with reach -- like a graft or maybe aberrant Inhuman Reach, but that's a couple feats too.

[Metahuman1]

Another possibility? Your goanna excel at catching people flat footed with stealth skills like that.

Open up a Factotum from the Dungeonscape supplement and use Iai-jutsu Focus skill from oriental adventures. Exotic weapons proficiency a Gnome Quick Razor from races of stone so that later you can start picking up TWF along with those Iterative attacks.

Added benefit is the quick razor is a light weapon, and you get weapon's finesse as a racial bonus feat. Putting the Aptitude weapon property on it and dipping swordsage for a level later opens up Dex to damage as well when you take the Shadow Blade feat. (The last four mentions are from tome of battle, and are a weapons property, a class, a book mechanic and a feat, respectively.

[HalfQuart]

Actually, I'm having a hard time figuring out how the Island of Blades stance in ToB works for Tiny characters. Island of Blades says that you get the benefits of flanking any opponent that you and an allay are both adjacent to.* Are you adjacent to your own square? The rules are a bit confusing because they generally assume a small or medium character, but the SRD says "Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#attack)", and if you're in the same square as an enemy, you're within 5', and thus potentially adjacent. When doing research on this, there were some other relevant references, but it isn't super clear what RAW or RAI is, and I think you can make a good case to your DM -- and really I think the intent of using "adjacent squares" in Island of Blades is to make it so you can't use it for your entire threatened area with reach weapons, and not to nerf tiny characters any more.

If this is the case, then Swordsage would be great at level 3 -- take Shadow Blade with your 3rd level feat, and you've immediately got Dex to damage (note that this uses the Dex bonus in addition to Str, not in place of, unfortunately) when you and an ally work together.

If you play with XP penalties for multiclassing, you probably won't want to take more that 2 levels of Swordsage, unless you can convince your DM to give you Rogue or Psychic Rogue as your favored class. Beyond 4th level, I'm not sure where you'd go -- maybe dip into Fighter for BAB and some bonus feats, or Ranger for BAB, skills, and TWF? You probably want to get spiked chain proficiency so you can attack from 5' away pretty quickly, otherwise when you get interatives, enemies can just 5' step away from you and you'll have to move back into their square to attack, essentially never getting a chance to full-attack. TWF would actually be pretty decent -- if you're in the same square, you could use the spiked chain and armor spikes with TWF; if they step away you just use the chain. The Kusari-Gama from DMG would be pretty neat as it is essentially a 1-handed reach weapon that lets you attack adjacent (like the Spiked Chain), but unfortunately it isn't a Shadow Hand weapon, so you wouldn't get the benefit of Shadow Blade. :-(

This also brings up how you're going to get into a creature's square without provoking AoOs. I think the best way is to just tumble. At third level you'll have: 6 ranks + 7 Dex + 2 Jump Synergy = +15. You need at least 25 to tumble into another creatures square without provoking. The easiest way to guarantee that is to get a Belt of Ultimate Athleticism (MIC, 3600gp) which lets you take 10 on tumble checks, which would let you hit 25 on the nose. You may want to get beyond that, though, as the DC increases by +2 for each additional enemy you tumble passed, so you may also need to invest in Acrobat Boots (MIC, 900gp) for a +2 competence bonus, or if you can figure out a masterwork tool for 50gp you can get a +2 circumstance bonus. It might be awhile before you can afford a Belt of Ultimate Athleticism, unfortunately.

(* Island of Blades doesn't actually say you have to threaten from the adjacent square, but that is probably implied... but in this case it doesn't even matter because the tiny character is trying to get the benefit from flanking for his attack, and can't attack from 5' away even if he does technically count as flanking.)

[Zaq]

You don't want to go melee/Shadow Blade unless your GM houserules that Shadow Blade replaces STR to damage. By RAW, it lets you add your DEX as a bonus. This lets characters with both STR and DEX double-dip, but it means low-STR characters like this little guy still suffer from the penalty low STR imposes.

[HalfQuart]

You don't want to go melee/Shadow Blade unless your GM houserules that Shadow Blade replaces STR to damage. By RAW, it lets you add your DEX as a bonus. This lets characters with both STR and DEX double-dip, but it means low-STR characters like this little guy still suffer from the penalty low STR imposes.
In this case it switches his damage bonus from -3 to +4, which is still pretty decent. Certainly not as good as +7, so yeah, of course it would still be nice to convince the DM to rule that way, but I don't think that alone should necessarily preclude him from going melee.