Does anybody know a way to circumvent the Str 15 prerequisite on Knock Down?

[Jowgen]

Question as in title. Getting Improved Trip is easy enough for any character; but the Str 15 seems hard to avoid. I know its a small tax for a rather overpowered feat, but still. Anybody know anything?

[Jormengand]

No, but there are two templates (ProtoBoK and WildDr306) which grant +strength at no level adjust, which may make it easier to qualify. Depends how valuable your intelligence and charisma are.

[Cosi]

A 10th level Rogue can take any feat as a bonus feat for which they do not have to meet prerequisites. That's probably more of a cost to the build than STR 15, but it does exist.

[Jormengand]

A 10th level Rogue can take any feat as a bonus feat for which they do not have to meet prerequisites. That's probably more of a cost to the build than STR 15, but it does exist.

This is incorrect:


A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.

Where you do not need to meet your bonus feat prerequisite, it is clearly stated:


A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

If the ranger selects archery, he is treated as having the Rapid Shot feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.

If the ranger selects two-weapon combat, he is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites for that feat.

[Cosi]

I'm in a hurry, so I don't have time to dig up the cites, but the MM generally defines bonus feats as not requiring prerequisites. Also, Fighter bonus feats specifically call out needing prerequisites. Finally, that MM text totally applies to PCs because there's a monster Cleric with the War domain that has the same notation as monster bonus feats.

[Troacctid]

I'm in a hurry, so I don't have time to dig up the cites, but the MM generally defines bonus feats as not requiring prerequisites.

Yes, but only in the context of bonus feats that are marked with a B in the creature's statblock. It's just explaining the meaning of that notation. Bonus feats without the B are subject to the usual rules for prerequisites.

The Monster Manual also includes wizards whose bonus feats do not have the B.

[Jormengand]

I'm in a hurry, so I don't have time to dig up the cites, but the MM generally defines bonus feats as not requiring prerequisites. Also, Fighter bonus feats specifically call out needing prerequisites. Finally, that MM text totally applies to PCs because there's a monster Cleric with the War domain that has the same notation as monster bonus feats.

Ah, yes, this is correct.


(It is acceptable for a creature to have a bonus feat for which it does not meet the prerequisites).

However, I would point out that technically you suffer from a problem if you try doing that, namely that you can take, but can't use, the bonus feat. Of course, any sensible DM is going to ignore this fact, but it's technically there.


Yes, but only in the context of bonus feats that are marked with a B in the creature's statblock. It's just explaining the meaning of that notation. Bonus feats without the B are subject to the usual rules for prerequisites.

No, having looked, this is only the rule entitling you to take and use bonus feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15958311&postcount=1290), but MM 301 lets you take them, just not use them.

EDIT: Actually, ignore that, and look at the wording again, but move the bold patch:


The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.

Tl;dr you CAN take, and use, a bonus feat for which you don't meet the prerequisites.

[Troacctid]

No, having looked, this is only the rule entitling you to take and use bonus feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15958311&postcount=1290), but MM 301 lets you take them, just not use them.
... You just linked to a post saying basically the same thing I just said.


EDIT: Actually, ignore that, and look at the wording again, but move the bold patch:



Tl;dr you CAN take, and use, a bonus feat for which you don't meet the prerequisites.
Well sure, if you take it out of context. But the context defines and restricts its scope, so it's pretty important. For example, the line right after that says you can reassign a creature's feats, but not its bonus feats. That would make Psychic Reformation a lot less useful, wouldn't it, if you could arbitrarily change any creature's feats without it?

[Beheld]

Well sure, if you take it out of context. But the context defines and restricts its scope, so it's pretty important.

So do level 1 Cleric's with the War Domain qualify for their bonus feat? Do they get to use it? Is it a bonus feat that gets the B descriptor? What evidence do you have for any of these claims?

[Jormengand]

... You just linked to a post saying basically the same thing I just said.
Yes, and then I appended:

No, having looked, this is only the rule entitling you to take and use bonus feats, but MM 301 lets you take them, just not use them.


Well sure, if you take it out of context. But the context defines and restricts its scope

No, it doesn't. It says "Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat." Not, "Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for this bonus feat" (as in this one, the one with the B). A bonus feat. Any bonus feat. If you want context, here it is:


A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.

Just, you know, to clarify the intent.

[Jowgen]

For sake or argument, lets say the bonus feat prereque ignoring thing works; or for those of a different bent, we temporarily meet the prereques and retain use of the feat after taking it as a bonus feat.

Do we have any better sources of a non-specific bonus feat than Rogue 10?

[Jormengand]

For sake or argument, lets say the bonus feat prereque ignoring thing works; or for those of a different bent, we temporarily meet the prereques and retain use of the feat after taking it as a bonus feat.

Do we have any better sources of a non-specific bonus feat than Rogue 10?

Loremaster 1? Human? Technically neither is actually a bonus feat, though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If it was a fighter feat you could ignore the prereqs via martial monk.

I suppose that you could DCFS a racial bonus feat for Knock-Down. It's still a racial bonus feat, right?

[Necroticplague]

If it was a fighter feat you could ignore the prereqs via martial monk. Sadly, Knock-down is General, not Fighter.


I suppose that you could DCFS a racial bonus feat for Knock-Down. It's still a racial bonus feat, right?

Doesn't work. Shun the Dark Chaos requires you to qualify for the feat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sadly, Knock-down is General, not Fighter.Right. If it was a fighter feat.


Doesn't work. Shun the Dark Chaos requires you to qualify for the feat.But bonus feats do not...

I suppose you could always create a new race using an epic spell...

Or you could qualify using polymorph, wild shape, metamorphosis, +2 Str gauntlets, etc.

[Âmesang]

The Monster Manual also includes wizards whose bonus feats do not have the B.
So it does. :smallconfused: This whole time I've been marking bonus feats on an online character sheet (human and familiar-granted Alertness) with a superscript B regardless of… anything, really; it was just to separate 'em from the normal 1/3/6/9/etc. feats.

Hmm…