What do Demons actually want? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

BWR

2016-02-16, 03:34 PM

Power.
Plain and simple. They want power. Being on the top, doing whatever they want whenever they want to whoever they want. They aren't interested in communal efforts or building something greater than themselves or the status quo, they are interested in getting to the top of the heap by whatever means possible.
They can be smart and canny about, planning intricate plots and making alliances and working with others for mutual gain but at the end of the day everything can be thrown out the window on a moment's notice if something better comes along. Of course, things vary from setting to setting, but this is pretty solidly baseline for most settings with demons (under whatever name) where they do not directly serve the interests of certain deities.

The big problem with things like angels and devils in D&D (which is where I believe your problem lay) is they are based on the idea that some real-world religions (especially inspired by the Abrahamic ones) have had that there exist supernatural creatures whose entire raison d'être is to mess with puny mortals. They have no interests beyond that and spend most or all of their time obsessed with what insignificant meatbags think and do. That's why in D&D you have entire classes of fiends like succubi/erinyes, and contract devils, those dedicated to sins and vice etc. Sometimes they try to make some sort of excuse for why this is - souls being power, wanting to win philosophical wars against other things, and mortal-bothering being sort of a lesser issue to demons and mortals thinking it is a bigger deal than it actually is, etc - but at the core the main conceit is that mortals are somehow very special and deserve the constant attention of beings who are on the whole ridiculously more powerful than them.

Jowgen

2016-02-16, 03:50 PM

I believe there is no clear cut answer (https://youtu.be/hFDcoX7s6rE?t=5) to this question; but that there is a decent answer as to why there is no clear cut answer.

Look at Devils. They are super organized and united in their methods, mind-sets and goals. This uniformity is a manifestation of how Lawful Devils are.

Demons, being super chaotic, are the opposite of uniform. This is especially true in the case of Tanar'ri, as they are born from the souls of chaotic mortals, and may retain certain traits and potentially even memories/desires from them. Succubi, for example, are born from lustful mortals; and it's pretty well characterized what they want; but even amongst Succubi there will be large degries of individual variance. There are even those judge-demons that want to enforce rules in the bloody abyss; but obviously, they go about doing that lawful thing in a chaotic evil manner. Conceivably, there could even be a Demon who's only goal is to kill all the other demons in the name of Justice; (although he obviously does all that and still generally acts CE himself).

I think it is literally all about the infinitie variance. Devils all want the same thing, Demons all want their own their own thing. Some things (like power and such) are more common due to the nature of the Abyss, but I am positive that there must Demons out there who don't care about becoming powerful, but rather just want to dominate their town's Three-Dragon-Ante tournament scene or whatever.

Seto

2016-02-16, 04:06 PM

They want pleasure. Now, being that they are made of Evil and Chaos, what is most pleasurable to them is making others suffer, dominating others, making their way through constantly changing dynamics... The common point of these pleasurable activities is that they require power. When you don't have power, you're dominated ; when you do, you're the one who dominates others. - Others being people, other demons, or really anyone. Thus, they want pleasure and power. Their goal is pleasure, and their way to pleasure is power.

That's close to "for the Evulz", but we're talking about creatures for whom torturing someone is the emotional equivalent of eating a delicious chocolaty cake. The closest they get to fulfillment and happiness is basking in their own free, glorious, uncontested Evil.

If you're looking for a unified agenda like that of Asmodeus, demons don't have one. But all of them are expressions of the inscrutable Abyss in its blind will to exist and cast its corrupting, primal malevolence upon all of the multiverse.

digiman619

2016-02-16, 04:22 PM

Oh, the new Mel Gibson movie!

Florian

2016-02-16, 04:29 PM

Don´t humanize them.
What they want? Tear anything down and drown it in the Maelstrom. That is what they are.

FocusWolf413

2016-02-16, 05:03 PM

You should ask Red Fel. Red Fel is the playground's resident demon expert. Everyone knows that Red Fel loves demons with all of his heart, going so far as to try to emulate them.

Flickerdart

2016-02-16, 05:30 PM

Demons love to hate. They look at those mortals, running around and going all "I sure do relish being alive and not in terrible pain" and they hate them. By corrupting their souls and dooming them to an eternity of suffering in the Abyss, the demons feel a little better, for a little while. Now it is their turn to point and laugh. Haha, human! Look at how your skin boils and blackens, as your very identity is burned from your soul! But the entertainment is passing, and a new maddeningly living mortal catches their fancy.

Arbane

2016-02-16, 05:43 PM

They're pure evil, but they're also pure chaos. Tearing apart deceitful 'organizations' and 'societies' and 'mutual aid' should be intensely satisfying to them.

Gabrosin

2016-02-16, 05:54 PM

They want to find a small party of mortals, lost on an unfamiliar plane, and through the magic of friendship help them find their way home.

charcoalninja

2016-02-16, 06:14 PM

I always imagine my demons as being like the Reavers from firefly. Horrific bestial terrors that you do not want to be caught by.

CockroachTeaParty

2016-02-16, 08:02 PM

I like a lot of the answers here.

I imagine demons harbor not just hate, but spite. I think of spite as a lot more 'spur of the moment.' It's a more petty, motivation-less cruelty, not unlike the capacity for children to be senselessly nasty to each other. Most demons can't help themselves; they just want to hurt.

I also imagine they have no impulse control at all. If something pops into their head, and they think they can get away with it, they do it.

Really, for demons to have an agenda is almost antithetical to their existence. Individuals or groups of demons might have plans or schemes for a while, but there's no pattern or trend to these things aside from the desire to destroy or corrupt. Just a series of unpleasant fads, molded by the needs of the moment (an infernal/heavenly offensive, for instance, that might unify multiple demons in defense).

I've read some stuff that suggests that the Abyss itself is almost like a very subtle hive-mind working in the background, pushing all demonkind toward destructive action (even self-destructive, see Demogorgon).

Tvtyrant

2016-02-16, 08:06 PM

They eat them to grow to the next stage. That is why they collect manes and why they want to seduce mortal souls away; to become higher level demons until they can morph into beautiful butterflies demon princes.

Other creatures like humans and nighthags use them for crafting ingredients and to boost spells, but for demons the biggest thing is hitting however many souls it takes to make it to the next level.

Red Fel

2016-02-16, 08:07 PM

You should ask Red Fel. Red Fel is the playground's resident demon expert. Everyone knows that Red Fel loves demons with all of his heart, going so far as to try to emulate them.

http://i.imgur.com/Cqmf725.gif

Demons? You call me out for demons?

What do they want? They want whatever they want. That's the definition of Chaotic Evil. They are the definition of Chaotic Evil.

They are creatures of savagery, id, and impulse. They are walking sins of lust, envy, and gluttony. They exist to want. That is what they do. They want whatever it is they want, and they devote themselves almost slavishly to sating that hunger - until and unless they find another focus of their ravenous mania. They pursue it with a ruthless bloodthirst that I would almost find admirable if it weren't so accursedly unprincipled and coarse.

Demons are whatever they are. Intellectual and plotting, mad and gibbering, or simply nasty, brutish, and short. And they want what they want.

Why does it matter? I'm just going to find some Paladins to kill them anyway.

LTwerewolf

2016-02-16, 09:02 PM

You should ask Red Fel. Red Fel is the playground's resident demon expert. Everyone knows that Red Fel loves demons with all of his heart, going so far as to try to emulate them.

It's like you don't want to stay intact at all and are trying your best to find a way to get Red to remedy that for you. You know if you say his name three times he appears.

FocusWolf413

2016-02-16, 09:39 PM

http://i.imgur.com/Cqmf725.gif

Demons? You call me out for demons?

Doesn't your lawful nature really irk you sometimes? It must be so inconvenient to be compelled to answer the call of every idiot who dares to thricely invoke your name. If you can't have the power to free yourself, what's the point of being evil? Learn to embrace the chaos sometimes. Learn to steal a bit from all sides. Learn to find the profit in everything. Everything in moderation, I say.

It's like you don't want to stay intact at all and are trying your best to find a way to get Red to remedy that for you. You know if you say his name three times he appears.

Bit of a deathwish, yeah. Might as well pick a fun way to go.

Bohandas

2016-02-16, 09:52 PM

I've thought of them as waging the Blood War for sport. Like, literally as a sport.

I also see them as being opposed to institutionalized slavery (but in favor of people-chained-up-in-the-basement type slavery)

Âmesang

2016-02-16, 10:22 PM

They want a DOOM adaptation where they're not %&#$'n aliens. :smallmad:

Bohandas

2016-02-16, 10:29 PM

They want a DOOM adaptation where they're not %&#$'n aliens. :smallmad:

I thought the creatures in DOOM were demons AND aliens; like something from Warhammer 40k or the Cthulhu Mythos

bigstipidfighte

2016-02-16, 10:54 PM

I'm... not an expert on this topic, and I won't explain it well, but here's my two copper.

Take a step back from Demons for a moment, and ponder, if you will, the nature of the Exemplar Races. There are nine exemplar races, one for each of the nine alignments. Exemplars do not "act like" their alignment, they ARE their alignment.

Exemplars want to act in ways that correspond with their alignment. They can justify their actions, but that is not the same as explaining their reasons. To say they do not have free will would not be entirely accurate. They are capable of acting against their alignment. They do not choose to.

A demon wants to act in CE ways. They want those around them to act in CE ways. They believe adherence to the tenets of CE will afford them the best quality of life.

Tieing this in to your more specific question about tempting mortals-

Narrow perspective, causing mortals to act more CE fulfills their desire to see those around them be CE. So, yeah, "for the evulz".

Broad perspective, the Abyss needs mortals who are the right brand of CE, because when those fellows die their souls go to the Abyss and become new demons. Said new demons will be at the bottom of the totem pole, effectively raising the status of older demons. Some of the newborns will also be sent to fight the Blood War.

On that topic- most demons don't care enough to go wage the Blood War. They do care about continuing to live in a CE world though. Ideally, it'd be nice if that world expanded it's borders into Devil territory. At the very least, keeping Devils from imposing Law on the Abyss is pretty obviously important. There's a whole breed of Demon that exists to conscript others into the War, called Molydrei(spelling?)

Broader perspective, making sure there is enough Chaos and Evil in mortal society is imperative to the continuation of the species. Mortal Belief shapes the Outer Planes, and their inhabitants. A large-scale shift in mortal thought toward Law or Good will make serious changes for the worse(in the demon's opinions).

So why do individual demons join the Blood War, or tempt mortals, or anything else that advances the species, rather than focusing solely on their own agendas?

A rare few happen to find these activities pleasurable enough to do them for their own sake. This is a tiny percent of a race with an infinite population, so, it's still plenty of demons to go round.

Others are coerced into doing these activities by stronger demons who can't be bothered to deal with them personally. These things have to be done, but there's debauchery to be had, so they delegate to the nearest unfortunate.

Since these things are important to an Exemplar's survival/way of life, it's possible they are hardwired to want to do them in a similar manner to how mortal creatures are motivated to reproduce. Exemplars do not age, so they do not need to reproduce to continue their bloodline. However, since they will(theoretically) be around forever, they need to not let the world go to ****.

I'd be pretty concerned about global warming if I were immortal.

Extra Anchovies

2016-02-16, 10:56 PM

I've thought of them as waging the Blood War for sport. Like, literally as a sport.

This is a neat idea. I imagine it's something along the lines of calvinball (http://www.picpak.net/calvin/oldsite/images/oogy.gif), where the rules and scoring system (if any) change on the fly. Might make for an interesting slightly-silly adventure hook: the PCs get captured by demons, and are spared their lives if they can win at Blood War - the demons who captured the PCs would have an edge in combat, so the players would have to come up with rules that swing the game in their favor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjsSvjA5TuE).

As an aside, Bohandas, where's your avatar from?

Yahzi

2016-02-17, 01:59 AM

Is anything similar established for Demons, where getting humans souls is of benefit to them?
In my world, a soul = 32 XP. Demons need XP for all the same reasons people do: gaining levels, powering spells, making magic items.

Xuldarinar

2016-02-17, 03:18 AM

Asking what do demons want, is a lot like asking what do living things want. Its simple, but it is complex.

Demons are individuals, having their own desires and ambitions. Never the less;
Demons want to acquire power, which often ties into the fact that;
Demons want to enjoy their existences, which frequently involves indulging in the sin that created them. This and others ties into the above as well as the fact that;
Demons want to perpetuate the sin(s) that created them, which lends itself to the fact that;
Demons exist to create more demons, which ultimately furthers;
Demons exist to spread the will of the plane that they are native to, bringing chaos and ruin upon the planes.

This is a neat idea. I imagine it's something along the lines of calvinball (http://www.picpak.net/calvin/oldsite/images/oogy.gif), where the rules and scoring system (if any) change on the fly. Might make for an interesting slightly-silly adventure hook: the PCs get captured by demons, and are spared their lives if they can win at Blood War - the demons who captured the PCs would have an edge in combat, so the players would have to come up with rules that swing the game in their favor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjsSvjA5TuE).

-snip-

Demon Calvinball... I can see that. They are beings of chaos after all, and amusingly under pathfinder there is a whimsy subdomain for the chaos domain. Now I want to see a demon lord of whimsy..

afroakuma

2016-02-17, 03:18 AM

Red Fel may be the resident demon expert, but I am the resident demon.

What do we want? Well let me tell you, puny mortal...

It's all about ME.

We are formed in fear, terrified, a shadow of some mortal thing brought low. Whatever evils grandiose or petty brought us to this state, we know only that what is us is in peril, immediately and terribly so. From what is it in peril?

From all that is not us. And that includes the rest of us.

Those will be our first kills, expunged in the cradle of new and vile existence. We seek the manes, to break and devour. They are easy to harm, and the fear they feel is greater than our own. Start with a few in front of the others, too selfish to band together against a common threat when an individual solution is best. The dretches might be a bigger hurdle, but we understand their brand of foulness - they will follow strength if they see it match against strength. We shall build a cadre of servants who, when their usefulness flags, we can devour.

And then it shall be that we have advanced, seen power beyond what we can crib from one another. We see other existence besides fear and pain, and we hate that it is there. Somewhere deep inside us we know the emptiness that comes from having once had a chance to possess such a thing. It fills us with spite. But lo! we have discovered a solution - we can make it stop!

Soon we shall discover that things which stop can start anew, and we need a better plan. Enter corruption, a way to make that which we despise, envy, lust for fall to become like us. We discover that we enjoy fear and suffering - when it belongs to others.

The emptiness burns within us. All that we are is selfishness and an instinctual alienation - the ultimate individualists, would-be solipsists ready to destroy anything that undermines the totality of us. Hell, forget "us." I am alone, I have no peers, nothing matters except me.

All that I build, I build for me. All those I serve under, serve with, am served by - those relationships are all ultimately in service to me. As I grow in might and power, I witness the emptiness within myself taking a shape, one that I perceive can be filled. I try to fill it with temporary things - blood, destruction, defilement, corruption - but these are transient, a puddle of water playing at being a jigsaw piece. To find what fits, to fill my void, to satiate my desires, I must carve the solution out of existence itself.

Everything I do and all that I am is motivated solely by this purpose: to take advantage of the power I have gained and the power I can yet attain in order to beat the living crap out of the multiverse until everything in it is all about me.

Seto

2016-02-17, 06:11 AM

Well done, strange-haired sir, well done.

Arbane

2016-02-17, 06:54 AM

A line that came up in a campaign I was in: "Fortunately for us, demons are bad at long-term planning. Unfortunately for us, their 'short term' is several centuries."

PrismCat21

2016-02-17, 08:57 AM

To crush their enemies. See them driven before them. And hear the lamentations of the women.

Red Fel

2016-02-17, 09:29 AM

Red Fel may be the resident demon expert, but I am the resident demon.

... Why would you say such things when you know they hurt me? :smallfrown:

As always, though, Afro knows the Planes. And Outsiders. Heed the 'Fro. Respect the 'Fro.

LTwerewolf

2016-02-17, 10:49 AM

... Why would you say such things when you know they hurt me? :smallfrown:

As always, though, Afro knows the Planes. And Outsiders. Heed the 'Fro. Respect the 'Fro.

It is said that if you know your enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of 1000 battles. If you know yourself and know your enemy, you will lose for each win. If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you shall wallow in defeat every time.

To be a true expert on all things lawful evil, we make the assumption that you know both yourself and your enemy.

Red Fel

2016-02-17, 11:05 AM

It is said that if you know your enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of 1000 battles. If you know yourself and know your enemy, you will lose for each win. If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you shall wallow in defeat every time.

To be a true expert on all things lawful evil, we make the assumption that you know both yourself and your enemy.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I never claimed not to know Demons, at least in the academic sense.

I just don't like them being on my resume.

Telonius

2016-02-17, 11:30 AM

... Why would you say such things when you know they hurt me? :smallfrown:

(Psst. Demon, that's why.)

tsj

2016-02-17, 12:27 PM

Would there ever be such a thing as a
Half Devil Half Demon?
Something that could be sometimes LE and sometimes
CE

I'm thinking a NPC party member
being possessed by a demon,
has the actual STR score of the demon
while retaining
his human form (for now)...

"aiding" the party, but has his own agenda....
Then when the time is right....

Kabloom. .. guts everywhere. .. and the NPC is now...
A DEMON. .. like a Balor for example. ...

The Bloodthirster summoning method
being the obvious inspiration

But my point is. ... biding time and using deception
like that
isn't that normally to LE for a demon?

Flickerdart

2016-02-17, 12:37 PM

But my point is. ... biding time and using deception
like that
isn't that normally to LE for a demon?
Nothing in the Chaotic alignment requires a creature to be impatient.

Âmesang

2016-02-17, 01:29 PM

Would there ever be such a thing as a Half Devil Half Demon? Something that could be sometimes LE and sometimes CE
Wouldn't that just be the neutral-evil yugoloths?

FocusWolf413

2016-02-17, 02:41 PM

Wouldn't that just be the neutral-evil yugoloths?

No. Yugoloths are pure, untainted evil. They are not corrupted by order or disorder. Yugoloths transcend law and chaos.

Anlashok

2016-02-17, 03:06 PM

No. Yugoloths are pure, untainted evil. They are not corrupted by order or disorder. Yugoloths transcend law and chaos.

Or, at least. That's what they think they are.

Red Fel

2016-02-17, 03:35 PM

Or, at least. That's what they think they are.

Pfft. Neutral Evil.

Get off the fence. We're at war.

Seto

2016-02-17, 03:50 PM

Pfft. Neutral Evil.

Get off the fence. We're at war.

As Lucretius said, it's pretty sweet to sit there, confident in your own safety, and watch Chaotic and Lawful massacre each other. And eat pop-corn.
Admittedly he didn't exactly phrase it this way.

Âmesang

2016-02-17, 03:55 PM

Law VS Chaos. Superman VS Goku. Popcorn goes with everything! :smallbiggrin:

FocusWolf413

2016-02-17, 03:58 PM

Pfft. Neutral Evil.

Get off the fence. We're at war.

What fence? They aren't led astray by false ideologies or concepts or order, tradition, or entropy. They act for themselves, by whatever means, for whatever reason. Your war is our their profit.

ThisIsZen

2016-02-17, 04:04 PM

Their design, even. What, you thought all those 'loth betrayals were random?

Talya

2016-02-17, 04:11 PM

What do demons actually want?

Chaos is the alignment of individuality. You can ask what an individual demon wants and perhaps get a satisfying answer. But to ask what demons as a group want will get you as diverse an answer as asking what humans want. Except most of the answers will be horribly depraved, to go with the diversity.

The further you move from Chaos to Law, the further individuality is suppressed in favor of groupthink. Ask what Devils want, and you will get more than one answer, but it will not be one unique answer per devil, like it would be per demon. Eladrin/Azata would be similar to demons in this regard, impossible to group, while Archons would be more uniform.

Red Fel

2016-02-17, 04:15 PM

The further you move from Chaos to Law, the further individuality is suppressed in favor of groupthink.

You... You mean... I'm not a special snowflake?

http://www.catgifs.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/021_sad_cat_gifs.gif

nedz

2016-02-17, 04:53 PM

Demons just want to have fun.

They don't care about the consequences and have little inhibition.

Bohandas

2016-02-17, 05:35 PM

As for Nalfeshnees, I envision them as behaving like the Abadeers holding court in the Nightosphere:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joi7HqywDAg

afroakuma

2016-02-17, 06:02 PM

... Why would you say such things when you know they hurt me? :smallfrown:

Demon. Evil. :smalltongue:

But yes, I shall retract. Red Fel is the devil expert.

Red Fel

2016-02-17, 08:33 PM

Demon. Evil. :smalltongue:

It's a fair cop.

But yes, I shall retract. Red Fel is the devil expert.

And all's well with the world. For certain definitions of well.

Bohandas

2016-02-17, 09:20 PM

I think that the music of GWAR would be useful for getting into the mindset of demons. One line especially stands out, from the song War Is All We Know, "They say that war is all we know; if only that were true, but no matter how I work my schedule there's always other things that I do"

EDIT:
Also, from The Song of Words, "So the mighty brothers did bind their will to journey and to slay without plan and bring siege and terror to the cities of man"

EDIT:
And from Go to Hell, "From what I've heard it's a pretty nice place: a sea of urine where rats eat your face, and a sadist like me can pursue his vocation; Yes, I'm going to Hell because I need a vacation."

Dayaz

2016-02-17, 09:23 PM

Would there ever be such a thing as a
Half Devil Half Demon?
Something that could be sometimes LE and sometimes
CE

Mechanically, you would pick one of the demons/devils involved, and add the Half Fiend template on top of it (which doesn't really do much, i don't think)

Fluffwise? I'm pretty sure no such child would make it past birth, if even that long. The demons would want it killed for fear of it one day being powerful enough to force it's will on them, and the devils would want ti dead for 'tainting' the lawful part of their nature.

That's why Pathfinder added in the Daemons. They're the Neutral Evil equivalent to Devils and Demons, and their whole mission is the consume souls. If I remember right (afb atm), they believe the Daemon who eats that last mortal soul will gain ultimate power and pleasure.

Yes, I love Daemons. My players learned to fear portals.

ThisIsZen

2016-02-17, 10:02 PM

Mechanically, you would pick one of the demons/devils involved, and add the Half Fiend template on top of it (which doesn't really do much, i don't think)

Fluffwise? I'm pretty sure no such child would make it past birth, if even that long. The demons would want it killed for fear of it one day being powerful enough to force it's will on them, and the devils would want ti dead for 'tainting' the lawful part of their nature.

That's why Pathfinder added in the Daemons. They're the Neutral Evil equivalent to Devils and Demons, and their whole mission is the consume souls. If I remember right (afb atm), they believe the Daemon who eats that last mortal soul will gain ultimate power and pleasure.

Yes, I love Daemons. My players learned to fear portals.

To be fair, Daemons actually predate both Pathfinder and 3.5. Their original name was Yugoloth, and they were hugely important in 2e Planescape Blood War material.

Blackhawk748

2016-02-17, 10:22 PM

You... You mean... I'm not a special snowflake?

http://www.catgifs.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/021_sad_cat_gifs.gif

Of course not....you're a kitty :smalltongue:

What do Demons want?

I believe this quote sums it up nicely:

And what is this path? This meaning, this purpose to which we gather the skulls of our foes?

It is nothing. There is no meaning, no purpose. We murder. We kill. It is mindless savagery, this UNIVERSE IS MINDLESS!

In mere hours, billions will die. Innocent! Guilty! Strong and weak! Honest and deceitful! ALL of them!

They will scream, they will burn, and for no purpose but that mighty Khorne we may revel in their bloodshed!

And united in this void of purpose, fear, or duty... we shall at long last be free!
Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne! LET THE GALAXY BURN!"

Âmesang

2016-02-17, 10:23 PM

That's why Pathfinder added in the Daemons. They're the Neutral Evil equivalent to Devils and Demons, and their whole mission is the consume souls. If I remember right (afb atm), they believe the Daemon who eats that last mortal soul will gain ultimate power and pleasure.
So what you're saying is… there can be only one? :smalltongue:

I'm actually glad the name "Yugoloth" has become more prevalent; I've always hated that they gave 'em a name so close to "demon," especially with my penchant for spelling "demon" as "dæmon."

EDIT: …and now I'm reminded of a fun, little quote: "Lawbreakers, lawmakers, let us fight them all. Why not?"

ksbsnowowl

2016-02-17, 10:26 PM

Would there ever be such a thing as a
Half Devil Half Demon?

There is such a creature (a unique creature, IIRC) in The Bastion of Broken Souls.

Anlashok

2016-02-17, 10:32 PM

What fence? They aren't led astray by false ideologies or concepts or order, tradition, or entropy. They act for themselves, by whatever means, for whatever reason. Your war is our their profit.

I've never really liked the "neutrality is purity" argument. I mean, yeah, a neutral character is going to be less impulsive and less bound to tradition and rules than their chaotic or lawful counterparts. But having the disadvantages of neither also means you don't have the advantages of either as well. Yugoloths are too individualistic to have the same degree of coordination and infrastructure as devil society, but too much compunction to be as free to do whatever suits them as a demon.

Secondly I don't think NE being the 'most evil' really works either. After all, being unfettered by anything and everything is a trait of chaos. So it's not much of a reach to call CE the purest expression of evil. Though that's not necessarily a boon in the first place.

Thirdly and slightly going back to the second point "not bound to false ideologies" and "act for themselves by whatever means for whatever reason" really sounds more like you're describing a chaotic character. In fact if you remove the "or entropy" (or not, really I suppose) you're basically describing CE perfectly.

Which has always been one of my problems with Neutrality on the Law-Chaos axis. Too often I see descriptions of it that more or less amount to a chaotic character that's totally neutral and not chaotic because REASONS.

Granted that's not unique to Chaos either. I see a lot of Lawful characters who read more like Neutral characters who happen to be part of a bureaucracy so they get shifted to lawful by default or something. A LOT of devils don't seem to really have any concept of order or tradition or honor or trustworthiness too.

Thealtruistorc

2016-02-17, 11:07 PM

Demons? You call me out for demons?

You called for the wrong guy. I am the one you are looking for!

https://media.giphy.com/media/11KQ8YA2sn4lyw/giphy.gif

Now then, there are a few things that you should know about demons before you delve into this:
1. That they are very powerful, stronger and more deadly than any creature that could possibly be naturally produced even in the world of magic. They are used to being the biggest b****** in the business and the odds of anybody being able to hold a candle to them are low.
2. That they are very ancient. Demons have been around long before the gods spat out "civilization" and know how the world works far better than anyone else. They haven't had the gods to support them through any of this, and as a result they have learned to become self-sustaining and absolutely ruthless. Why should they have any respect for existence when it has never had any respect for them? They are anomalies in the cosmic image, and their very presence defies the plans of the gods.
3. That they are smart, much smarter than they get credit for and certainly much smarter than the mortals who would try to dupe them.

Together, these factors mean that Demons are out to become the top dogs of the universe, because they know they have the potential, they have plenty of reason to fight the powers that be, and they have the know-how to pull it off. Everything they do is part of an immense plan to reach the peak of the cosmic heap, and most of them know that the only way they are assured of getting there is to have no qualms about underhanded tactics and no mercy for anybody who isn't going to further their goals. They prey on the fools who won't consider the long term by taking advantage of their emotions and wants, adding yet another unwitting pawn to their ranks before the mortal can realize that they've been played. Wizards may think that they are controlling demons through their magic, but it is the other way around. Demons allow themselves to be summoned so that they can get cozy with the material plain, and I guarantee you that no matter how hard you resist temptation your abyssal bargaining is going to come back to bite you eventually.

And yet, in spite of all the cunning and expertise that they display, the rest of the universe views them as patsies at best and imbeciles at worst. Every wizard believes that Planar Binding is all that he needs to keep a beast of the abyss in line, and every god regards demons as an afterthought in their great scheme. It has been that way since the dawn of existence, and I must say that the demons will not take this sitting down. A deep hatred of those who shun or dismiss them boils in the blood of every soul in the abyss, but they know well enough that anger is a worthless weapon if not handled with tact. Demons will typically play along with whatever the gods have in mind: they will serve the mages, they will teach the antipaladins, they will take the souls when they get the chance and try not to set off the other planes (we'll get to the blood war later), but they are in the game for the long term, and eventually their ranks and influence will swell to the point where they can claim the whole pot.

Every Balor, Marilith, and Glabrezu has seen more murder and destruction in his time than any human mind could ever comprehend, and they have become inured against it. Even they might feel something is slightly off when they kill needlessly, but they accept this offness because it gets them where they need to be. Blood is the price to pay for success, and there will come a time when all of the newer races of the cosmos realize and embrace this fact. Chaotic Evil is stupidity, it is the pinnacle of reason, and all those who deny that are willfully ignorant. The passage of time will eventually unveil this fact to the world, and by the time the **** hits the fan YOU WILL REIGN AS THE NEW GODS OF OBLIVION!

There's just one problem, however, and that is the fact that a few other fiends have caught on (commonly known for their eggs). There are some who want to live in a fantasy world where everything can be controlled and the universe works the way it is supposed to, and they are determined to quash the greater truth by any means necessary. However, they have made one horrid miscalculation: Demonkind already went through the phase of law, and it didn't work. Eventually, the new upstarts of the lower planes will hit a snag that their honor codes and contracts can't solve, and when they do you'll be there to smash their armies and look them in the eye with the ultimate "I told you so." Let the Luddites build their fortresses and the kingdoms and their plans, because it will be all the more satisfying when you bring them tumbling down. The same goes for those goody-two-shoes folks up top, who will eventually have to break formation and start tearing up innocents just like those they claim to hate. The demons tried to be good too, and guess what? It didn't work.

Demonkind has been through the worst the universe has had to offer and now stand as its ultimate mockery, proof that no matter how hard law and good try to suppress it, Chaotic Evil will triumph in the end. They are the only civilization to become truly enlightened, to embrace the cosmos in its utter stupidity and bring that realization down upon all those who would run from it. When the demons reign supreme, there will be nobody left to question their methods, and isn't that worth a little humiliation on the way up?

Does that answer your question, mortal? Or do you need a more...visceral lesson?

FocusWolf413

2016-02-17, 11:15 PM

I've never really liked the "neutrality is purity" argument. I mean, yeah, a neutral character is going to be less impulsive and less bound to tradition and rules than their chaotic or lawful counterparts. But having the disadvantages of neither also means you don't have the advantages of either as well. Yugoloths are too individualistic to have the same degree of coordination and infrastructure as devil society, but too much compunction to be as free to do whatever suits them as a demon.

Secondly I don't think NE being the 'most evil' really works either. After all, being unfettered by anything and everything is a trait of chaos. So it's not much of a reach to call CE the purest expression of evil. Though that's not necessarily a boon in the first place.

Thirdly and slightly going back to the second point "not bound to false ideologies" and "act for themselves by whatever means for whatever reason" really sounds more like you're describing a chaotic character. In fact if you remove the "or entropy" (or not, really I suppose) you're basically describing CE perfectly.

Which has always been one of my problems with Neutrality on the Law-Chaos axis. Too often I see descriptions of it that more or less amount to a chaotic character that's totally neutral and not chaotic because REASONS.

Granted that's not unique to Chaos either. I see a lot of Lawful characters who read more like Neutral characters who happen to be part of a bureaucracy so they get shifted to lawful by default or something. A LOT of devils don't seem to really have any concept of order or tradition or honor or trustworthiness too.

Really, all of the problems arise from the bs alignment system that we restrict ourselves to in game. For the most part, it's poorly defined, poorly demonstrated, and the lines between alignments blur into meaninglessness.

Bohandas

2016-02-18, 01:21 AM

The mistreatment of all sentient beings

edit:

This is a neat idea. I imagine it's something along the lines of calvinball (http://www.picpak.net/calvin/oldsite/images/oogy.gif), where the rules and scoring system (if any) change on the fly. Might make for an interesting slightly-silly adventure hook: the PCs get captured by demons, and are spared their lives if they can win at Blood War - the demons who captured the PCs would have an edge in combat, so the players would have to come up with rules that swing the game in their favor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjsSvjA5TuE).

I was thinking more like they follow the war in sports bars, bet on it, and wage it for fun.

I actually began to explore this in a forum game adventure I used to run on MSPA's forum ("Ekolid: A Demonic Adventure (http://www.mspaforums.com/showthread.php?52649-Ekolid-A-Demonic-Adventure)"), but wasn't able to get very far with it due to lack of interest (no doubt resulting from the disorganized format and long asides about my non-mainstream religion (http://www.mspaforums.com/showthread.php?52649-Ekolid-A-Demonic-Adventure&p=7076079&viewfull=1#post7076079)...which brings me con eniently to the next point...)

As an aside, Bohandas, where's your avatar from?

It's a diagram from the Principia Discordia (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/book/70.php)

Seto

2016-02-18, 04:03 AM

Every Balor, Marilith, and Glabrezu has seen more murder and destruction in his time than any human mind could ever comprehend, and they have become inured against it. Even they might feel something is slightly off when they kill needlessly, but they accept this offness because it gets them where they need to be. Blood is the price to pay for success, and there will come a time when all of the newer races of the cosmos realize and embrace this fact.

I find that a good bloody killing is its own reward.

However, they have made one horrid miscalculation: Demonkind already went through the phase of law, and it didn't work.
The demons tried to be good too, and guess what? It didn't work.

Huh, what? When? You mean as mortals? Because most demons have never been mortal, springing forth from the Abyss itself, and even those formed from the souls of mortals don't remember their previous life. Demons, as demons, never had an atom of Law or Good in their mind or in their heart.

Mystral

2016-02-18, 04:26 AM

And please don't just say "They do thing For the Evulz, Chaotic Stupid, they do whatever they want for whatever reason." Because even if they're disorganized hordes, they do have certain traits common to all of them. They all seem bloodthirsty, the stronger demons being more and more militant and enjoying battle. And they all hate Devils, even if many are too scattered to join in the Blood War properly. What I want to know is: A number of Demons are referenced as tempting humans to ruin. What benefit does that get them? Devils make contracts for human souls which end up promoting them to higher ranks in the Devil hierarchy. Is anything similar established for Demons, where getting humans souls is of benefit to them?

They want to destroy the multiverse and piss on the ashes.

Bohandas

2016-03-05, 01:58 AM

Coidzor

2016-03-05, 02:31 AM

Law VS Chaos. Superman VS Goku. Popcorn goes with everything! :smallbiggrin:

We didn't invent Mechanus Bot to not use it, after all.

Bohandas

2016-03-05, 02:43 AM

Also the Sibriex demons from Fiendish Codex 1 would likely amuse themselves with Human Centipede-like projects

FatR

2016-03-05, 05:02 AM

As far as my campaigns are concerned, demons want to return everything to primordial chaos, effectively destroying the world. The specific justifications for this vary depending on a demon. Some just want to give a middle finger to the world order that rejected them and thrown them into the Universe landfill that is the Abyss. Some exist in horrible torment, but as there is no such thing as soul annihilation in my cosmos, and existing in horrible torment as a powerless disembodied shade sucks even harder, they hope that undoing all the world's laws would be enough for them to get a release from their agony, one way or another. Some, particularly those on the top, are so incredibly jaded that they seek the biggest, most destructive, hardest to win conflict ever possible in the hopes that this would stimulate their shriveled hearts even a little. And many just don't reflect on their motives at all - they just know that destruction and inflicting pain on others make them feel a bit better, while grabbing every bit of power they could helps to ensure that they would be ones inflicting pain, instead of receiving it.

Eldan

2016-03-05, 12:42 PM

It recently occurred to me that if the abyss and its demons are truly infinite, then every demon, especially those born from the abyss, must have an unlimited number of duplicates. I don't think the demons would appreciate this fact and many, upon realizing it, would set out to kill their alternates like in that kung-fu movie "The One"

Not necessarily, no. You can have an infinity of things which are all different. Think of numbers. There's an infinite amount of numbers, but only one of them is one.

That said, the idea is funny.

Jack_Simth

2016-03-05, 02:18 PM

Not necessarily, no. You can have an infinity of things which are all different. Think of numbers. There's an infinite amount of numbers, but only one of them is one.

That said, the idea is funny.

If you're looking at "inches", is the difference between 1 and 1+2.6*10-3481462726245245573535 different enough for you to tell visually?

Flickerdart

2016-03-05, 03:14 PM

Not necessarily, no. You can have an infinity of things which are all different. Think of numbers. There's an infinite amount of numbers, but only one of them is one.

That said, the idea is funny.

Well, it depends on how the demons see it. 1 is the only 1, but it's pretty dang close to 2 (or for that matter, 1.0000001). Demons are not keen on pedantry, and are likely to hate anyone who is even roughly similar to them, never mind completely identical.

Necroticplague

2016-03-05, 03:18 PM

Not necessarily, no. You can have an infinity of things which are all different. Think of numbers. There's an infinite amount of numbers, but only one of them is one.

Incorrect, there are a lot more than one number that is one. There's also .5x2, .25x4, 1/1, 2/2, 3/3, x/x......there are an infinite amount of numbers that are 1.

Coidzor

2016-03-05, 08:43 PM

Incorrect, there are a lot more than one number that is one. There's also .5x2, .25x4, 1/1, 2/2, 3/3, x/x......there are an infinite amount of numbers that are 1.

That much math has to be getting lawful.

Mabn

2016-03-05, 08:54 PM

Incorrect, there are a lot more than one number that is one. There's also .5x2, .25x4, 1/1, 2/2, 3/3, x/x......there are an infinite amount of numbers that are 1.
those all map to 1 for certain very common rules. If multiplication or division operate under a different system they could be other numbers entirely. Even if they all map to one thing, they are mapping to one thing, which could be 1 which would still be the only number 1.

Florian

2016-03-06, 06:02 AM

Gotta love the Abyss. Must be one of the few places where math doesn´work. Too lawful to be part of that planar reality.

Jack_Simth

2016-03-06, 10:30 AM

Gotta love the Abyss. Must be one of the few places where math doesn´work. Too lawful to be part of that planar reality.

... so... 1+1=3, except when it equals 4, 1, or 6?

PersonMan

2016-03-06, 10:36 AM

... so... 1+1=3, except when it equals 4, 1, or 6?

Just be careful, otherwise 1+1 will equal 'oh god get it out of my face why is arithmetic gouging out my eyes'.

Elderand

2016-03-06, 10:45 AM

Xuldarinar

2016-03-06, 10:45 AM

... so... 1+1=3, except when it equals 4, 1, or 6?

Depth/layer pending. The whole plane may be CE, but there is variation in the degrees of chaos. Some of it is just chaotic, other elements are more anomalous because lets face it; It is infinite and it is chaotic.

Some layers are akin to 1+1=(3,7,1), others are akin to 1 + 1 = 11, then there are others more along the lines of 1+1=(X,Y,Ω).

Then.. there are those fun moments.
Where things are along the lines of:

1̢͈͉͚̝̩̫͚̪̣̫͓͗̔̅̔̐͜ͅ
̷͉̭̮͕̞̈ͪ̽̏͛ͧ̽ͯ̇ͣͭ̚+̨́ͤͪ̒̎̃̇̇̃̾̈̽҉̞̹͈̘̳̝̰̬͢ͅ1ͧͬ̑ͧͧ͋ ͭ̽͛͐͞҉͡҉͉̟̱͙̹̹̗̹ͅ
̶͈̬̦̖̟̰͇̣̗̤̺̺ͮͧ̈́ͫͣ̈́͛͂̈́ͯͭ̎̂ͭ̚̚=̡̃̾̍̏ͧ͏̛̲̦̣̜̯͝4͒̇ ͌ͫͯ̓͊̉͑ͫͨͨ̈́̈͂́҉̛͏͍̜̫̠̦͕̺̰̻͝0̴̴̶̞̩̜͇̜̫͉̱̝͓̼̬̣̏ͭ͊̈ͦ ͌̈̒͐̿̄̒̂̍ͤ̕4̢̬͇̗̳̘̟̱͕ͫ̃ͫͤ̊ͩͨͮ͡

Oy. Enough with the chaotic math. Don't forget that the abyss isn't just chaotic, it's evil. And the abyss isn't entirely chaotic in that way. It's more chaos as individuality than chaos as unexplainable reality.
If you want a reality were math make no sense, where even the concept of math make no sense, where even thinking of the concept of math making no sense make no sense, you want the far realm.

While more the far-realm's shtick, the abyss isn't necessarily free from that kind of chaos. It just doesn't always manifest as melting clocks. Explain the Shattered Night, for instance.

Eldan

2016-03-06, 01:25 PM

Eeeeeh. You're muscling in on far realm territory. The Abyss is still part of the multiverse, it still follows law. 1+1=white is the far realm, not the Abyss.

Seto

2016-03-06, 02:03 PM

Oy. Enough with the chaotic math. Don't forget that the abyss isn't just chaotic, it's evil. And the abyss isn't entirely chaotic in that way. It's more chaos as individuality than chaos as unexplainable reality.
If you want a reality were math make no sense, where even the concept of math make no sense, where even thinking of the concept of math making no sense make no sense, you want the far realm.

...or Obyriths. They're remnants of when the Abyss was that kind of Chaos. Reality as it currently exists (let alone our perception) cannot accommodate their true forms. It's not a stretch to suppose that the same is true of their conceptual scheme (if they even have one to speak of).

Bohandas

2016-03-11, 11:44 PM

"I want to murder everyone in the entire world
Every man and woman. Every boy and every girl.
Swallow up the air and earth and mutilate the worms
Kill the messenger who begs us to consider terms"
-GWAR, Biledriver

Tvtyrant

2016-03-12, 12:08 AM

Eeeeeh. You're muscling in on far realm territory. The Abyss is still part of the multiverse, it still follows law. 1+1=white is the far realm, not the Abyss.

The far realm is a hack who muscles in on Limbo and the chaotic planes.

Eisfalken

2016-03-12, 01:44 AM

It really does help to think of demons almost as being exactly like The Joker as presented in Dark Knight. To misquote: Because some creatures aren't looking for anything logical, like power. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some creatures just want to watch the universe burn.

Elderand

2016-03-12, 08:20 AM

The far realm is a hack who muscles in on Limbo and the chaotic planes.

Thinking that shows a fundamuntal misunderstanding of what the far realm is. Worse, it shows a very flawed understanding of what chaotic planes are.

Chaos in DnD cosmology doesn't mean random impossible to understand ever changing laws of nature. Chaos is an ethical alignement, chaos is freedom.

Of all the planes in DnD only two are chaotic in an way that make the environment unpredictable. the abyss and limbo.
And the abyss doesn't really count because it's the plane as a whole that's unpredictable, each layer, taken on it's own follows rules. The rules however differ from layers to layers and even then there is a definite trend. The abyss is a bell curve of randmoness. Most layers will be hewing very close to the norme with just a quirck or two (oh look, lakes of acid and deadly fumes or gravity is onky and pull you in mess of jagged spikes) and even then all these quirks are predictable in that the abyss is consistently deadly. You know what you'll never see in the abyss? A layer that's entirely normal except everytime you fall a fluffy pillow springs up to cushion you.

Limbo is chaotic but it is not entirely randow where maths break down and the correct answer to what came first: chicken or egg is bat. No, limbo is chaotic in that it is unstable, it's is the material plane absent any cohesiveness between the elements. Instead of air, earth, fire and water mixing to create matter each element exist on it's own, constantly roiling and clashing with the others. It is a primordial soup. Magic is wild, the soup can be shaped by thought and gravity is whatever you want it to be. If the world of dnd was made of Lego, Limbo would be made of all separate, unassembled pieces floating around.

Now for the Far realm. What is the far realm? Well it's easier to say what it isn't. First off it's neither moral nor ethical. it is neither good or evil, nor lawful or chaotic. The far realm is made of layers, you'd think that would be a point where we can compare it to other planes but no. Where other planes have layers and each layer is a world of it's own linked thematicly to other similar worl the far realm is made of litteral layers. It's string theory grown large. Dimension that blends and mix together, each with varying size, infinite in one direction with a variable thickness. It has no gravity. Limbo has subjective gravity. Limbo gravity is entirely normal except you just which way is down. The far realm has no gravity. Everything float down there. The far realm, like limbo, has surges of elements. But where Limbo's element are everywhere, all the time and randomly some of them will take ascendance for a moment the far realm has no elements, until it does, storms of fire or earth propagating through layers. Conflagration of acid and air washing over everything. Until it doesn't.

The far realm is deadly, sometimes. But where the abyss is deadly on purpose; a plane made to kill and hurt you; the far realm doesn't care about you. If it is inimical or benefical to you it so by accident. The plane is unconcerned with you. It is deadly like a volcano or a storm is deadly. **** happens.

The far realm is highly morphic. It's layers breath, divide and merge. But you have no say in it. Limbo, if you think hard enough, can be coalesced into anything you want. You can think as hard as you want at the far realm and it won't do ****. The layers change in response to what entities native to the far realm wants. oh but not all of them no. the pseudonatural creature you see everywhere? They're just quirky tentacly version of what's everywhere else in the universe. Normal beings twisted by exposure to the far realm? Or part of the far realm twisted in strange reflection of the creature of the world by proximity to it? Who knows? No, it's the vast shapeless thing, spawning countless layers that exist deep in the far realm, far from the edges that near existence. The alien gods and elder evils (altough they are neither), those are the ones that shape the far realm.

The far realm is madening. Oh that's nothing I hear you say, pandemonium is maddening. the winds of which drive you insane. But that's just chinese water torture. it's madness brought but unrelenting noise. It's that whistling in your ear that just won't stop. It's madness caused by evil intent.
The far realm drives you mad because it's wrong. Wrong in a way no other plane is. Your very existence, your thought, your past, your body, all of it wraps in ways that shouldn't be. Devils have ten thousand way to hate you. In the far realm you are made to think and feel things for which there are no words or concepts. You know, that feeling you get from being a particular shade of blue that's not actually blue on the light spectrum but blue on the corduroy spectrum of fishes. That's the closest you get from how the far realm makes you feel or look.

No matter what plane you gets to, you're still playing DnD. Get far enough into the far realm and you're playing another system entirely. One born from the insane raving of a lunatic whose mind was shattered by the realisation of how insignificant we all are to the universe and that there are shapeless nameless things out there. Things that could end us just by blinking in our general direction.

And then of course it's nothing like that at all because ultimately, what the far realm truly is... is unnatural. Unnatural in the most profound sense of the word.

All that can be, all that can be imagined, all that can be conceptualized or discussed by humans and every other sentient species in the vast reaches of the universe. The far realm is everything else. Except when it's not.

Bohandas

2016-03-12, 01:54 PM

Ladies and hentlemen, I have had a vision. I see the demons engineering the creation and spread of creatures of pure good and innocence, so that they may then destroy them. A refinement and perfection of what was started in Androlynne.

I see them importing celestial versions of rats, mice, and other pests, breeding them to be more intelligent but less wise, and letting them spread so that they can be exterminated later.

also, getting more on topic

And please don't just say "They do thing For the Evulz, Chaotic Stupid, they do whatever they want for whatever reason." Because even if they're disorganized hordes, they do have certain traits common to all of them. They all seem bloodthirsty, the stronger demons being more and more militant and enjoying battle. And they all hate Devils, even if many are too scattered to join in the Blood War properly. What I want to know is: A number of Demons are referenced as tempting humans to ruin. What benefit does that get them? Devils make contracts for human souls which end up promoting them to higher ranks in the Devil hierarchy. Is anything similar established for Demons, where getting humans souls is of benefit to them?

It's more artsy to get them to kill each other than it is to kill them directly. Sometimes safer too. Plus if they can make someone chaotic evil who was previously on their way to becoming lawful evil that denies that person to the forces of baator.

Plus they just like to mess with people.