Mirror, Mirror

[AMFV]

Howdy folks, in the "My ____ are different" thread I mentioned that I had a desire to create a fantasy setting based on standard D&D, where the alignments were reversed but as much of the culture as necessary was preserved. I figured that I would put it to you folks to help with developing this, the setting that we're starting with is relatively generic as more people add more information I'll adjust the OP, and see if we can get an actual setting going. Basically I'd need help converting over races or deities, using the generic ones (or anything else that's strongly alignment oriented).

Elves

Elves go from being usually Chaotic Good, to being usually Lawful Evil. This makes their flighty forest culture somewhat difficult to preserve. We can definitely preserve their relationship with the forest, but not instead of a symbiotic relationship it's a parasitic one. The Elves infest the forest, bending it to their whims, they use it an manipulate it through dark and ancient magics. Once the Elves ruled large swathes of the world, now they're reduced in size and in prosperity. Their long lives instill in them a particular fear of death, and they often use horrific Arcane means to prolong their lives. That's all I've got for the minute, but more brainstorming would help, and any other assistance or idea folks can offer would be outstanding!

[VoxRationis]

Howdy folks, in the "My ____ are different" thread I mentioned that I had a desire to create a fantasy setting based on standard D&D, where the alignments were reversed but as much of the culture as necessary was preserved. I figured that I would put it to you folks to help with developing this, the setting that we're starting with is relatively generic as more people add more information I'll adjust the OP, and see if we can get an actual setting going. Basically I'd need help converting over races or deities, using the generic ones (or anything else that's strongly alignment oriented).

Elves

Elves go from being usually Chaotic Good, to being usually Lawful Evil. This makes their flighty forest culture somewhat difficult to preserve. We can definitely preserve their relationship with the forest, but not instead of a symbiotic relationship it's a parasitic one. The Elves infest the forest, bending it to their whims, they use it an manipulate it through dark and ancient magics. Once the Elves ruled large swathes of the world, now they're reduced in size and in prosperity. Their long lives instill in them a particular fear of death, and they often use horrific Arcane means to prolong their lives. That's all I've got for the minute, but more brainstorming would help, and any other assistance or idea folks can offer would be outstanding!

Elves are easily portrayed as intolerant of other cultures and lifestyles. It would not be difficult to imagine even normal elves going out to slaughter nascent agriculturalist cultures to prevent them from building a population base which could be a threat to them.

Halflings become intolerant, scheming creatures bound by intricate systems of taboos, violations of which are punishable by community-delivered execution or humiliation. Witch trial-esque accusations are common.

[AMFV]

Elves are easily portrayed as intolerant of other cultures and lifestyles. It would not be difficult to imagine even normal elves going out to slaughter nascent agriculturalist cultures to prevent them from building a population base which could be a threat to them.

Halflings become intolerant, scheming creatures bound by intricate systems of taboos, violations of which are punishable by community-delivered execution or humiliation. Witch trial-esque accusations are common.

That's a really interesting view of Halflings. I agree that Elves are pretty easy. I really like how your halfling idea preserves their cultural way of life, while changing their alignment completely. So definitely awesome! They could even still stay as nomadic trader types, except now it's much slimier underworld stuff they get into.

Dwarves are... difficult, they have a system of honor culture typically. Which is hard to depict as CE, although it might be possible provided it's just window dressing, like a front that's really not a Dwarven aspect, but one that they talk about. They'd still be warlike, just oppressive and brutal rather than necessarily defensive.

[avr]

Gnomes are easy though; just take the Trust (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/The_Trust) from Eberron gnomes and play up the downsides of having a pervasive network of secret police who use nasty tactics like blackmail and intrigue all the time. Pranks are a way of letting off steam in that scenario.

Kobolds are downtrodden miners who revere dragons and use traps to cover their physical weakness. None of that demands LE alignment; add a playful tinker strain and they can be CG easily enough.

Red dragons go from being CE ravaging brutes to LG noble advisors who ravage only their enemies. Gold dragons go the other way.

[Belac93]

I would suggest checking out some of the (http://goblinpunch.blogspot.ca/2015/02/elves-and-oatmeal.html) several (http://goblinpunch.blogspot.ca/2014/11/high-elves-and-their-creation-myth.html) articles on elves over at goblin punch. (s)he has some ideas of evil elves. For people who don't want to click a link, here are some key parts.


If you ever meet a high elf, running her golden fingernails though the ichor of a dead godling's eyeball on the 15th level of some dungeon, you should probably run the other way.

So, yeah, powerful sorcerer-kings of a former age. Waged numerous genocides against the lesser races whenever they felt like it, with varying degrees of success. Godlike magical prowess. Elitists who claim to know more about the universe than anyone else.

Elves have poisoned trees to make their foliage more beautiful, and released mildly-poisonous gases in order to enhance the sunsets. They've made rivers undrinkable in order to have an enchanted waterfall that ran across the surface of a cliff.

They equate beauty with morality. The goodness of a person can be seen in their countenance, in the bone structure of their face. Their trustworthiness is apparent in their posture, and the irregularities of their skull can betray one's aptitude for virtue or for vice.

Just as dwarves assert that all precious metals/stones mined from the earth belong to them, so do elves claim that all natural beauty belongs to them.

Might not be exactly what you're looking for, but its interesting all the same.

Yay, somebody was interested in my thread!

[Dusk Raven]

Dwarves are... difficult, they have a system of honor culture typically. Which is hard to depict as CE, although it might be possible provided it's just window dressing, like a front that's really not a Dwarven aspect, but one that they talk about. They'd still be warlike, just oppressive and brutal rather than necessarily defensive.

Honestly? In our own world, a lot of cultures have this notion of "honor" that's completely alien to our own. In some third-world countries it really seems like you can't gain honor, only shame your families, leading to so-called "honor killings" to punish or alleviate such shame. It doesn't seem hard to come up with a system of honor that has nothing to do with good or even law, especially if it's quite unforgiving to the "dishonorable." On the other hand, pretending to be honorable, as you suggested, works pretty darn well for a CE culture. Or, perhaps they're really hypocritical about it - holding deep grudges against outsiders for transgressions that a Dwarf would be forgiven for. Possibly even something where it seems like only outsiders can do dishonorable things.

Anyway, I'll probably work on some ideas later. I love mirror universes and I love most of the stereotypically "evil" races in D&D, so I'll see what I can do later.

[AMFV]

Gnomes are easy though; just take the Trust (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/The_Trust) from Eberron gnomes and play up the downsides of having a pervasive network of secret police who use nasty tactics like blackmail and intrigue all the time. Pranks are a way of letting off steam in that scenario.

Kobolds are downtrodden miners who revere dragons and use traps to cover their physical weakness. None of that demands LE alignment; add a playful tinker strain and they can be CG easily enough.

Red dragons go from being CE ravaging brutes to LG noble advisors who ravage only their enemies. Gold dragons go the other way.

That does feel like rather a complete swap between Gnomes and Kobolds as well. Although the Kobolds would certainly work quite well.

I think that for the Gnomes we'd want to maintain their obsessive curiosity, we could just have that funneled towards less pleasant ends, we could alternate the setting between Gnomes who find out secrets (like the Trust) or Gnomes who perform unethical experiments.


Honestly? In our own world, a lot of cultures have this notion of "honor" that's completely alien to our own. In some third-world countries it really seems like you can't gain honor, only shame your families, leading to so-called "honor killings" to punish or alleviate such shame. It doesn't seem hard to come up with a system of honor that has nothing to do with good or even law, especially if it's quite unforgiving to the "dishonorable." On the other hand, pretending to be honorable, as you suggested, works pretty darn well for a CE culture. Or, perhaps they're really hypocritical about it - holding deep grudges against outsiders for transgressions that a Dwarf would be forgiven for. Possibly even something where it seems like only outsiders can do dishonorable things.

Anyway, I'll probably work on some ideas later. I love mirror universes and I love most of the stereotypically "evil" races in D&D, so I'll see what I can do later.

That's definitely some good stuff, as this progresses Dwarves are seeming to be more and more interesting. Which is surprising, considering that they tend to be bland in many settings (although they are one of my favorite races, they're often difficult to flavor well).

Basically all of those ideas are gold, I think we should make it so that they're not only bigoted against outsiders, but people from a different family structure, basically anybody they perceive as a threat to their personal power and their own ends.


And since I tackled one of the easier races before (Elves, who seem to be very easy to turn Evil, for whatever reason), I'm going to do one of the more difficult ones.

Mindflayers

They move from being LE to CG, which is quite a shift. Now their ability to eat minds poses quite an existential problem for a good race, also their method of reproduction leaves a lot to be desired. However, they do have powerful magic, allowing them to sustain themselves fairly easily without having to eat brains unnecessarily. For their present culture, eating a mind is considered an honor, and is something done to the honored dead shortly after they expire (only with their permission), this allows their knowledge and experiences and emotions to be passed on to the next generation, this procedure repeats when the Illithid themselves expires and passes on to the Elder Brain, which in this case is not simply one evil entity, but rather the sum of all of the experiences that came before. Which tends to make it more scatterbrained, but that's appropriate for a super intelligent Chaotic being.

As far as reproduction goes, it's a volunteer basis, many people welcome the opportunity to become part of a powerful psychic being. Their personality is retained and joined with that of the neolithid, to form a unified being that's an amalgamation of the two personalities.

I've just realized that the Underdark is going to be a much more pleasant place in the mirror world, although Dwarves will probably be mucking it up some.

[VoxRationis]

Ogres become lawful good; their simplicity of tactics and aversion to magic come from a somewhat unpragmatic adherence to a strict code of warrior ethics.

Gold and silver dragons become CE; their adoption of humanoid customs and affectations extend to warlordism... "Have you ever heard the works of Shen Yu? He fancied himself quite the warrior poet..."

Conversely, LG red dragons become the guardians of the natural order; their wide domains are both their hunting grounds and nature preserves, held against the tide of civilization with fire and talon.

It's kind of difficult to make drow NG or LG; all the details of the culture, which we are attempting to maintain, point to NE or CE. I suppose the treachery could be spun as an ethos which despises realpolitik and prefers loyalty to abstract concepts; an ally is only an ally if they adhere to "the Code," and they become an enemy as soon as they break it. Poisons, particularly the nonlethal ones, become a matter of loss prevention. Spiders are easily worked into many alignments: they are both tricksters (Chaotic) and creators (Lawful); they protect people from pests (Good) while occasionally killing or injuring them (Evil), so that's not too tough to reshape.

[AMFV]

Ogres become lawful good; their simplicity of tactics and aversion to magic come from a somewhat unpragmatic adherence to a strict code of warrior ethics.

Gold and silver dragons become CE; their adoption of humanoid customs and affectations extend to warlordism... "Have you ever heard the works of Shen Yu? He fancied himself quite the warrior poet..."

Conversely, LG red dragons become the guardians of the natural order; their wide domains are both their hunting grounds and nature preserves, held against the tide of civilization with fire and talon.


We're definitely seeing one of the old School D&D trends reversed. A lot of D&D baggage has civilization as the "good guys" against a dangerous wilderness. But in this setting civilization is dangerous and the wilderness is pure and better. Very Rousseau, it makes for a very different type of setting



It's kind of difficult to make drow NG or LG; all the details of the culture, which we are attempting to maintain, point to NE or CE. I suppose the treachery could be spun as an ethos which despises realpolitik and prefers loyalty to abstract concepts; an ally is only an ally if they adhere to "the Code," and they become an enemy as soon as they break it. Poisons, particularly the nonlethal ones, become a matter of loss prevention. Spiders are easily worked into many alignments: they are both tricksters (Chaotic) and creators (Lawful); they protect people from pests (Good) while occasionally killing or injuring them (Evil), so that's not too tough to reshape.

I think that we don't necessarily need the treachery to have the drow. I mean the fundamental aspect of their culture is the Matriarchy, I mean we're instilling treachery in Dwarves, with a fake code of honor, maybe in the drow we have kind of the opposite, a strict code of honor, which binds them to duty to family. The poisons, could be an attempt to non-lethally subdue enemies, perhaps the Drow use nonlethal poisons in their internal warfare. They'd still have a deep familial obsession. Also we have to remember that their culture is profoundly shaped by being cast out of the now Evil Elf society. So it's very likely that a lot of their eccentricities that might be otherwise hard to deal with result from that.

[Jendekit]

Dwarves are... difficult, they have a system of honor culture typically. Which is hard to depict as CE, although it might be possible provided it's just window dressing, like a front that's really not a Dwarven aspect, but one that they talk about. They'd still be warlike, just oppressive and brutal rather than necessarily defensive.

Haven't read the rest of the thread but I couldn't resist chiming in here. The Dragon Age setting has more or less already solved this. Dwarves in Orzimmar have a firmly rigid caste-based system with a heavy emphasis on honor. Or rather, the appearance of honor. In Dragon Age: Origins, a dwarf PC can praise their younger brother for a political move that eliminated both of the eldest sons from inheriting the throne in one fell swoop by either turning the two against one another or framing the PC for the eldest brother's death. This is then followed by the youngest brother calling in all of the favors he has in the senate-analog to immediately exile the still living brother into the Deep Roads, effectively a death sentence.

[Xalyz]

The dwarves now seem much closer to the drow. So what if the dwarves' sense of honor is the only thing keeping a loosely knit xenophobic dwarven group together?

Leaders are only for war, families basically do their own thing. Punishments are severe and swift. Maybe vampirism plays a big role?

[Dusk Raven]

We're definitely seeing one of the old School D&D trends reversed. A lot of D&D baggage has civilization as the "good guys" against a dangerous wilderness. But in this setting civilization is dangerous and the wilderness is pure and better. Very Rousseau, it makes for a very different type of setting

So much yes. That hadn't occurred to me - and given the number of newly-CE cultures we have it may just be the pretense of civilization (something with historical precedent, sadly) - but I do like it. As someone who's spent years deploring Manifest Destiny and the overlooked downsides of civilization, I kinda like this idea. I've certainly pondered a setting where civilized humanlike races were evil and good "monstrous" races took shelter in the wilds. Perhaps I'll draw on that...

I really like your take on Mind Flayers, especially since it ties in to some beliefs about more typical eating that I've tossed around for a fictional culture. I've generally thought of Illithids as one of the more disturbing and evil races, but I do like this take.

Now, if I had more time tonight I'd make my mark with my list of evil races I love, but I'll post the races I like, see if anyone wants to take a stab at them:

Kobolds have been mentioned, and it really seems like the only thing you need to do to turn them good is to stop treating them as bad guys.
Yuan-Ti. I don't really know why I like them so much, but I do. In my own 3.5/PF setting I mixed them a bit with urban conspiracy theories of reptile-men controlling and impersonating key figures, and maybe a bit of The Shadow Over Innsmouth, but then again I frequently deviate from D&D or at least Greyhawk canon because I consider it stupid. Enough of that! I am eager to see good snakemen.
Gnolls! I do love the hyena-men, and they do not get enough love. Probably what I would do is take away the stupid and incorrect stereotypes of hyenas. Maybe draw some inspiration from wolf family behavior as well. As a bonus, in real life, it's common for the more powerful lions to bully hyenas and steal their kills. Gnolls fit right in as misunderstood underdogs.
Aboleths. A lot of the more alien creatures interest me, but Aboleths take the cake. To me, they represent bearers of knowledge, with their racial memories that extend to the dawn of time. In my own setting they are willing to part with knowledge in exchange for services or more knowledge - similar to this, Chaotic Good aboleths may be almost like archetypal mentors, even trickster mentors, preferring to guide and give wisdom rather than directly intervene, which suits their suite of subterfuge-based powers as well. As a bonus, since canonically their racial memories take time to sift through, one can imagine their Chaotic nature meaning they're a bit... not all there, usually in several places in the past. Woe betide those foes who receive their full attention.

More later, I love this idea! One question, though - are we keeping the mirror-cultures restricted to humanoids, aberrations that have societies, and, well, societies in general, or extending it to, say, outsiders and undead? I feel we should keep focused on cultures for now (with possible exceptions for things like vampires) - and besides, kinda hard to mirror-flip actual incarnations of good and evil, as interesting as this would make them.

[Nobot]

More later, I love this idea! One question, though - are we keeping the mirror-cultures restricted to humanoids, aberrations that have societies, and, well, societies in general, or extending it to, say, outsiders and undead? I feel we should keep focused on cultures for now (with possible exceptions for things like vampires) - and besides, kinda hard to mirror-flip actual incarnations of good and evil, as interesting as this would make them.

You could consider that a bleak or even hellish afterlife makes it a good thing to prevent a spirit from passing to the other side. After all, if death means eternal torture, even for those who were 'good,' wouldn't it be a good thing to stop that from happening? The undead are those spirits that were saved from such a horrible fate. Or does that screw with your thoughts on afterlife and the planes too much?

[AMFV]

More later, I love this idea! One question, though - are we keeping the mirror-cultures restricted to humanoids, aberrations that have societies, and, well, societies in general, or extending it to, say, outsiders and undead? I feel we should keep focused on cultures for now (with possible exceptions for things like vampires) - and besides, kinda hard to mirror-flip actual incarnations of good and evil, as interesting as this would make them.

Everything that's possible, essentially it's the world you'd see through a mirror of opposition. Gods, the undead. Fiends and celestials basically do a straight flip, which is a touch boring, but what can you do?

[Belac93]

Everything that's possible, essentially it's the world you'd see through a mirror of opposition. Gods, the undead. Fiends and celestials basically do a straight flip, which is a touch boring, but what can you do?

LG Demons and CG devils? That's an interesting idea. What if LE souls still went to hell, and CE ones still go to the Abyss? It would make more sense than evil torturing evil.

[AMFV]

LG Demons and CG devils? That's an interesting idea. What if LE souls still went to hell, and CE ones still go to the Abyss? It would make more sense than evil torturing evil.

That's interesting, I think it wouldn't work as well because then you'd have the good folks going to essentially hell, which would suck, and I don't think it fits the mirror of opposition idea

Although, this does mean that the forces of Good are the tempting ones, and that Evil is the default state and Good is the aberration in this setting. Goatees for everyone I guess

[VoxRationis]

Beholders are now rugged individualists who believe in carving out lives of their own, in isolation from the corruption of societies. They fear all others of their kind, because they all look slightly different and they never know if the stranger is a member of an evil sub-race or something (and since the stranger can disintegrate at will, they get especially jumpy). They come across therefore as paranoiac hermits when you encounter them.

Yuan-ti become an LG society of the devout, hoping to be reincarnated into a higher, more snakelike form.

Formians become CN, constantly struggling for dominance against the biological demands that keep them into hives. Betrayals are commonplace, and the queen's caster levels are frequently used in her own defense.

[Belac93]

Hey, would this make Flumphs CE? :smallconfused:

[AMFV]

Hey, would this make Flumphs CE? :smallconfused:

Yep. Blink Dogs would also be Evil.

[GorinichSerpant]

Hey, would this make Flumphs CE? :smallconfused:

Yes, they would still go around warning people about aberrations, but for an ulterior purpose. I'm not versed enought in flumph lore to say why they would do though. Maybe something under the lines of defending their territory from competitors?

[Belac93]

I put together a list of what all the races would be in this world for easy referencing. Taken from the PHB, DMG, EEPG, and SCAG. Some alignment listings were found in the MM. Alignments are listed from most common to least common.
Races
Dwarves
CE, NE, CN
Duergar
CG, CN, NG

Elves
LE, NE, LN
Drow
NG, CG, LG

Halflings
CE, NE, CN

Dragonborn
NE, NG, TN

Gnomes
LE, CE, NE
Svirfneblin
TN, CN, LN

Half-Elves
LN, LE, LG

Half Orcs
LG, LN, NG

Tieflings
LN, LG, NG

Aasimar
CN, CE, NE

Aarakocra
NE, CE, LE

Genasi
TN, LN, CN

Goliath
CN, CE, CG

[AMFV]

I put together a list of what all the races would be in this world for easy referencing. Taken from the PHB, DMG, EEPG, and SCAG. Some alignment listings were found in the MM. Alignments are listed from most common to least common.


Which set of PHB, DMG are you taking from? Not that it matters overmuch, since the setting doesn't need to be edition specific, mostly curiosity on my part.

[Belac93]

Oops, sorry. 5e, its what I'm used to playing.

[Slawth13]

On the subject of CG devils, wouldn't this make hell into basically Superjail, with Asmodeus as the Warden, concocting ever more zany and ludicrous schemes to 'rehabilitate' the lost souls there?

[Black Socks]

Hey, would this make Flumphs CE? :smallconfused:

I can see Flumphs as still having vast knowledge, but instead they use it to help the villains complete their schemes. Maybe they have to feed on evil brainwaves to survive, and so they go around trying to spread evil in the world.
They could be the obsequious adviser and the pet that the villain constantly strokes!

[Yanagi]

Howdy folks, in the "My ____ are different" thread I mentioned that I had a desire to create a fantasy setting based on standard D&D, where the alignments were reversed but as much of the culture as necessary was preserved. I figured that I would put it to you folks to help with developing this, the setting that we're starting with is relatively generic as more people add more information I'll adjust the OP, and see if we can get an actual setting going. Basically I'd need help converting over races or deities, using the generic ones (or anything else that's strongly alignment oriented).

Elves

Elves go from being usually Chaotic Good, to being usually Lawful Evil. This makes their flighty forest culture somewhat difficult to preserve. We can definitely preserve their relationship with the forest, but not instead of a symbiotic relationship it's a parasitic one. The Elves infest the forest, bending it to their whims, they use it an manipulate it through dark and ancient magics. Once the Elves ruled large swathes of the world, now they're reduced in size and in prosperity. Their long lives instill in them a particular fear of death, and they often use horrific Arcane means to prolong their lives. That's all I've got for the minute, but more brainstorming would help, and any other assistance or idea folks can offer would be outstanding!

I'd take a different tack on Elves: make them the patricians. Just take all the turgid sentences about how wonderful and sophisticated elves are from authors, and put them in the mouths of the elves themselves. They have the right to screw over others because they're "civilized"; what when they invade, or filch resources, or do crazy experiments, it's for the betterment of everyone...and if you can't understand that, you're just not assimilated. So instead of just being the guys that trash nature, they're the guys that live in incredible, pristine estates...that can only exist by eating up resources from the rest of their world. So instead of being in touch with "Nature," their pristine forests are as authentic and sustainable as Marie Antoinette's pastoral idylls as a shepherdess. And what they inflict on non-elves, and the land itself, is justified because...well, elves are better.

Orcs

Orcs live in the worst, marginal places of the world and survive. Even when they're CE, they have a pall of tragedy when you think about how they're (a) custom-made by a god who's basically Abusive Sky Dad, to die in aid of his grudges, (b) live short ugly lives in places where starvation and exposure have to be the norm. They're driven by terror and rage because they're a race of child soldiers/cult kids/famine victims. The only reason they're not tragic is they're intelligently designed to be enjoy being awful...which is actually a different kind of tragedy.

Making Orcs LG, they're in the same geographic locations and subsistence niche, but they're surviving by rigid social structure and intense cooperation...sort of like real-life cultures in extreme environments. It's not enough to be vaguely "honorable" or have shared interests: living means always being aware of others, and caring for the needs of others. Every life is precious precisely because life is precarious. In turn, the land they dwell in is unforgiving, but you're grateful for every single thing you can wrest from it, so you don't defile it.

And they have druids. Yeah, that would mean NG rather than LG, but a Druid in a wasteland is the closest I can think of to exemplifying what I'm yammering about.

[Dusk Raven]

An interesting implication about this mirror flip - virtually all undead are evil. I think there's a couple examples are neutral, but either way the devs had a very... shall we say, conservative Christian view of undead, and it shows. But in this setting, they're almost all good. Why might that be? Perhaps that's tied to the flip of outsiders - perhaps the now-evil Celestials have control over the afterlife, basically, and the undead are those souls who have been rescued from the grip of evil to continue battling for good.

Speaking of outsiders, I saw talk of CN Formians, what about CN Inevitables? Would they still seek to punish offenders of their ethical code - in this case, punishing those who obstruct freedom - or do they actively seek out and destroy those who uphold certain laws? And what of the Slaad? I can only imagine they are now very dull and monotonous, in keeping with the fact that they are all giant frogs.

[ThePurple]

Making Orcs LG, they're in the same geographic locations and subsistence niche, but they're surviving by rigid social structure and intense cooperation...sort of like real-life cultures in extreme environments. It's not enough to be vaguely "honorable" or have shared interests: living means always being aware of others, and caring for the needs of others. Every life is precious precisely because life is precarious. In turn, the land they dwell in is unforgiving, but you're grateful for every single thing you can wrest from it, so you don't defile it.

And they have druids. Yeah, that would mean NG rather than LG, but a Druid in a wasteland is the closest I can think of to exemplifying what I'm yammering about.

This is pretty much exactly what Eberron does with 2 different orcish cultures (there are 4 major orcish cultures in Eberron: there are the orcs of the Mror Holds, who are exactly what orcs normally are, constantly raiding the dwarves that live there; the orcs of the Shadow Marshes which are basically insular swamp people, kind of like a blend of Creole and SE asia; the orcs of the Demon Wastes; and the orcs of the Eldeen Reaches).

In the Demon Wastes (exactly what it says on the tin), a vast majority of the orcish/human/tiefling tribes there worship the evil demons that give the place its name. Except for a small number of tribes that instead worship the Kalok Shash, a primitive version of the Silver Flame, that commands them to spend their lives amongst the evil, preying upon it and preventing it from spilling over to attack the rest of the world. They have the same beliefs as the Church of the Silver Flame (Eberron's LG religion of going out into the world and kicking evil's ass because all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing) but without the same rigid political structure, instead turned into a strict tribal code of conduct and personal sense of honor. I could easily imagine an entire orc culture just like this one that chooses to live in the most inhospitable terrain, rampant with incredibly vile creatures, because they see it as their duty and privilege to spend their lives in the defense of the rest of the world. Even if the rest of the world is a crapsack world ruled by LE elven tyrants and their gnomish secret police assassins, the ones that they are protecting are *less* evil than the evil that they are fighting to keep in place.

The other is the Gatekeeper druids of the Eldeen Reaches, which are an ancient alliance of (originally) orcs (and other races because they made friends in the intervening centuries) that use their druidic powers to fight aberrants and keep Xoriat (the plane of madness from which aberrants come) sealed away, lest they once again invade Eberron and destroy yet another major civilization (the ancient goblin Dhakaani Empire spanned all of Khorvaire millennia ago and was brought to ruin by the invasion from Xoriat and was only stopped by the concerted efforts of the original Gatekeeper druids).

In both of these cases, orcs are explicitly good aligned though they are very much so in line with the traditional, primitive orcish cultures that celebrate war and combat, so they fit extremely well with the intended view.

You could actually use a lot of Eberron as inspiration for this mirrored world.

The elves of Eberron are either basically Bedouin raiders (Valenar elves) obsessed with personal glory or death obsessed practicers of voodoo led by and worshiping a massive congress of good aligned positive energy undead (Aerenal elves). The Bedouin elves can *very* easily be seen as an LE culture because of their strict code of honor and personal and cultural ambition (honestly, I think Valenar elves make more sense as being evil than being good like elves normally are because they're warmongering blood knights, but Eberron is pretty lax on the importance of alignment) while you could reinterpret Aerenal elves as being ruled over by and venerating their oppressive undead overlords who, obsessed with physical beauty, have incredibly draconian environmental control and behavior laws that preserve the appearance of the nation as one of pristine beauty and idyllic happiness.

Someone already mentioned the gnomes of Zilargo and the Trust.

The halfings of Eberron are plains nomads/gypsies that ride dinosaurs. Provide them with a set of laws and personal codes of conduct that demand strict adherence and place the importance of the family unit and clan ahead of absolutely anything else (including outsiders). You could also look to the halflings of Dark Sun, who are headhunting cannibal pygmies who live in the only forest remaining in that crapsackiest of settings.

Overall, Eberron really *loves* the whole idea of alignment inversion while keeping races looking pretty similar to the standard concepts. Probably the only race that didn't get this treatment was dwarves, who got turned into Swiss bankers and lovers of fine chocolates instead of Scottish craftsfolk and lovers of beer (they're still miners though).

I do like the idea of a CE dwarven culture that's similar to the standard drow culture, oriented around familial clans but obsessed with backstabbing and personal advancement with only the facade of civility and order keeping everything together. I can imagine their motivations are more oriented around grudges and perceived slights rather than advancement or loyalty, however. Dwarven clans are kept together more by their virtue of them being more paranoid and fearful of other clans than their own (and, even then, they've still got to keep one eye open at all times because they might not have noticed that, when they finished off that last keg of mushroom ale, their brothers swore vengeance because they *know* that he did that just to spite them). It would kind of explain why dwarves are supposed to be gruff and impersonal when the standard dwarven culture would lend one to believe that dwarves are highly social because they're in such tight quarters with one another underground.

[Bohandas]

Elves

Elves go from being usually Chaotic Good, to being usually Lawful Evil. This makes their flighty forest culture somewhat difficult to preserve. We can definitely preserve their relationship with the forest, but not instead of a symbiotic relationship it's a parasitic one. The Elves infest the forest, bending it to their whims, they use it an manipulate it through dark and ancient magics. Once the Elves ruled large swathes of the world, now they're reduced in size and in prosperity. Their long lives instill in them a particular fear of death, and they often use horrific Arcane means to prolong their lives. That's all I've got for the minute, but more brainstorming would help, and any other assistance or idea folks can offer would be outstanding!

I could see them as making sacrifices of sentient beings to forest gods and dark powers. There's plenty of precedent for it in legend, as in the Ballad of Tam Lin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tam_Lin
http://tam-lin.org/analysis/tamtranslated.html
http://tam-lin.org/analysis/metaversion.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy3ihk205ew

[Black Socks]

An interesting implication about this mirror flip - virtually all undead are evil. I think there's a couple examples are neutral, but either way the devs had a very... shall we say, conservative Christian view of undead, and it shows. But in this setting, they're almost all good. Why might that be? Perhaps that's tied to the flip of outsiders - perhaps the now-evil Celestials have control over the afterlife, basically, and the undead are those souls who have been rescued from the grip of evil to continue battling for good.

Speaking of outsiders, I saw talk of CN Formians, what about CN Inevitables? Would they still seek to punish offenders of their ethical code - in this case, punishing those who obstruct freedom - or do they actively seek out and destroy those who uphold certain laws? And what of the Slaad? I can only imagine they are now very dull and monotonous, in keeping with the fact that they are all giant frogs.

Maybe the Slaads have gone crazy from living in such a chaotic environment, now they just seek to destroy all chaos, which would include art, personal expression, freedom, etc. They see themselves as heroes, making sure no one has to go endure chaos.

[Bohandas]

Maybe the Slaads have gone crazy from living in such a chaotic environment, now they just seek to destroy all chaos, which would include art, personal expression, freedom, etc. They see themselves as heroes, making sure no one has to go endure chaos.

Wouldn't their home planes be flipped as well?

[Clockwork333]

Otyugh! Can still be living trash disposals but more discerning about not eating sapients?

Trogs as simple but friendly underground mushroom farmers? Scavenging from bigger, more evil, societies?

[Tzi]

Elves

Elves go from being usually Chaotic Good, to being usually Lawful Evil. This makes their flighty forest culture somewhat difficult to preserve. We can definitely preserve their relationship with the forest, but not instead of a symbiotic relationship it's a parasitic one. The Elves infest the forest, bending it to their whims, they use it an manipulate it through dark and ancient magics. Once the Elves ruled large swathes of the world, now they're reduced in size and in prosperity. Their long lives instill in them a particular fear of death, and they often use horrific Arcane means to prolong their lives. That's all I've got for the minute, but more brainstorming would help, and any other assistance or idea folks can offer would be outstanding!


I'll raise you one, Elves are actually completely ignorant of nature. Elven forests were created monstrosities, engineered through alchemy and magic and in fact Elves being so unnatural have little connection to nature, but revere it in the sort of way a city dweller reveres a carefully manicured banzi tree. Through magic they bend the trees to their will, they make nature obey. Unlike humanity which is actually in tune with nature, but all of it including the ugly side. Elven woods are strangely quiet as wildlife struggles in the magically altered environment. Elven woods are manicured, pretty, tightly controlled and kept in perpetual beauty.

Drow:
Something Good, Dwelling underground in vault cities and underground tunnels, these were Elves who rebelled and were forced underground by the wars above. The now "Forest," elves used powerful magics, akin to Atom bombs to drive them from the surface long ago. Drow grow mushroom crops in harmony with the earths rhythms, they worship Gods of Earth and Stone including a great Spider whose web wards off demons and evil and whose web "Binds them together in Solidarity."

Drow accept the uglyness of nature and do not seek to use radical magic to control it.

[Rockphed]

I like flipping the various demi-humans and other typical PC race fodder races. Flipping undead and outsiders seems a bridge too far. I really enjoy the various ways to make Elves evil and monstrous.

[LudicSavant]

Dwarves are... difficult, they have a system of honor culture typically. Which is hard to depict as CE

Well, I don't know what you interpret "CE" as requiring, but honor cultures can sometimes put ego, image, esteem, and public reputation on a pedestal, while caring relatively little for questions of, say, human suffering, truth, or justice. Life can be cheap in honor-obsessed societies compared to the monumental importance of face. Little indignities or perceived insults (often shockingly arbitrary) can beget overwhelming aggression (often with little justification required).

If you want to make a terrifying honor culture, history offers no shortage of cases to research.