PDA

View Full Version : Players who disrupt games for a good reason



Jon_Dahl
2016-02-16, 03:43 PM
I've encountered this a few times over the years.

A (new) player comes to game with me and my friends (or I come to a new group). The player soon notices that the game is played or run wrong. This might be that the house rules are dysfunctional, the game world doesn't make sense, NPCs are stupid, missions aren't appealing, the gamemaster/DM isn't fair etc. The player make a solid argument and no one can really argue that the player is wrong. The player is intelligent and charismatic. The game is bad and he is able to show it to everyone.

Then the player is suddenly gone. The game is fun and everyone is enjoys themselves. The problem(s) that bothered the player still exist, but no one really cares or notices them anymore.

I've noticed that there might be several players of this type here, because I always see posts where people argue why something is wrong and why they wouldn't want to play a game that has certain problems or elements. When I read these posts, I often think about the players that I've had who disrupt games with their good argumentative skills and ability to find problems in games and GMs.

Airk
2016-02-16, 03:52 PM
I'm not really sure what you are asking or asserting here, exactly?

Some things are more important to some people than others, obviously, and that sounds like what you are seeing here. We all have things we do and do not enjoy, and not all of the things we don't enjoy are "game breakers" where we won't play a game that has them. People have different tastes. The player was right. So are the other players. Because there is no objective "right" here.

On the other hand, it's often a good idea to LISTEN to these people, because you don't necessarily HAVE to stick with your broken houserules either.

Geddy2112
2016-02-16, 03:54 PM
Better they do it early and leave, or address it than just let it fester and boil over.

What may be right for you, may not be right for some. Nobody is really wrong here, but the reasons people play ttRPG's and what they like are as varied as the day is long. It is inevitable that some players won't get along, for one reason or another. Just like in every other aspect of life. I would rather the type of person who disrupts things for a good reason and addresses philosophical differences like an adult than pout quietly and ruin everyone's fun(theirs included).

Gallade
2016-02-16, 03:59 PM
I've encountered this a few times over the years.

A (new) player comes to game with me and my friends (or I come to a new group). The player soon notices that the game is played or run wrong. This might be that the house rules are dysfunctional, the game world doesn't make sense, NPCs are stupid, missions aren't appealing, the gamemaster/DM isn't fair etc. The player make a solid argument and no one can really argue that the player is wrong. The player is intelligent and charismatic. The game is bad and he is able to show it to everyone.

Then the player is suddenly gone. The game is fun and everyone is enjoys themselves. The problem(s) that bothered the player still exist, but no one really cares or notices them anymore.

I've noticed that there might be several players of this type here, because I always see posts where people argue why something is wrong and why they wouldn't want to play a game that has certain problems or elements. When I read these posts, I often think about the players that I've had who disrupt games with their good argumentative skills and ability to find problems in games and GMs.

Happened to me on my early player days. The DM was VERY strict on his own house rules, such as not awarding XP ("You'll level up when I tell you so"), keeping the party constantly broke so that they couldn't buy tools to "skip" parts of the story (Think HM moves in Pokémon), making them all the butt of jokes during interactions, and generally putting in tons of marginally-relevant NPCs in every fight which bloated the initiative count and made it much slower than it had to be. I and all other players eventually mutinied, and he quit the campaign because he refused to budge even an inch to make the campaign more like what the others considered entertaining.

The difference here seems to be that it's a single player that disagrees with the rules of the campaign, while the others see his point but still enjoy the game with all its flaws. Had he stuck with the campaign and perhaps even talked it out with the DM and the other players outside of the game, they could have reached an agreement.

ComaVision
2016-02-16, 04:10 PM
I think the appropriate thing to do is bring up grievances outside the allotted play time. If I have a correction or suggestion for the DM, I wait until after the game (unless it's a minor rules error like someone not noticing an AoO).

caden_varn
2016-02-16, 05:09 PM
Sounds to me like different playstyles. I think it is difficult for a lot of folks to really take in the breadth of the hobby, and the subtle ways that what person x wants clashes with what person y wants.
I think this is a strength of RPGs, but people do need to understand it and be willing to say 'This is not for me, but it is not wrong'.

In the case you bring up, I don't think it is 'for good reason'. We play the game to have fun. If everyone is having fun, it is OK. And remember, the DM should be having fun too.

Felyndiira
2016-02-16, 05:27 PM
I don't think there is such a thing as a 'bad game' or a 'right way to play the game'. Even if a table runs a D&D game while ignoring pretty much all of the rules, or have beliefs about the game that run contrary to conventional wisdom, that's totally okay. The end purpose of D&D is for everyone to have fun, not to hold a gun to peoples' heads and making them adhere to rule #315 printed on page 289 of book XYZ. Even if everyone on the table thinks monks are overpowered or something, it's totally okay as long as everyone is still having fun.

Trying to correct perceived grievances with the table is also okay. If a player are not having fun because of a table's rules, he/she should bring it up with either the GM or the rest of the table. Perhaps it is something that could be corrected to the player's satisfaction, perhaps that player compromises, or perhaps everyone discovers that the player's vision of the game and the rest of the table's visions do not match. Ultimately, if someone is not having fun with something, then the best course of action is to discuss things like rational adults and correct the problem.

As for the stories that we tell, GitP is a forum with our own perceptions and our own biases, and many of the "horror stories" (excepting the cases where actual laws are broken or people harmed) are like gossip about other people that you and I may have with friends - usually told from our point of view with people that share our perspective, and sometimes exaggerated here and there for comedic effect. Perhaps someone talks about some 'horrible' group they come across and we all laugh, point out how wrong they are, and have fun with the story; while this is going on, that group is probably still playing the game blissfully in their own way and still having fun.

Ultimately, the forum can read the story and have fun. The person can vent a little and have fun. The group probably continues to play in the same way and have fun. The takeaway being that talking about 'bad groups' isn't really about correcting actual badwrongfun as much as it is gossip - to tell an entertaining story with like-minded folks, and perhaps vent a little frustration in the process.

Lacco
2016-02-17, 01:52 AM
I've encountered this a few times over the years.

A (new) player comes to game with me and my friends (or I come to a new group). The player soon notices that the game is played or run wrong. This might be that the house rules are dysfunctional, the game world doesn't make sense, NPCs are stupid, missions aren't appealing, the gamemaster/DM isn't fair etc. The player make a solid argument and no one can really argue that the player is wrong. The player is intelligent and charismatic. The game is bad and he is able to show it to everyone.

Then the player is suddenly gone. The game is fun and everyone is enjoys themselves. The problem(s) that bothered the player still exist, but no one really cares or notices them anymore.

I've noticed that there might be several players of this type here, because I always see posts where people argue why something is wrong and why they wouldn't want to play a game that has certain problems or elements. When I read these posts, I often think about the players that I've had who disrupt games with their good argumentative skills and ability to find problems in games and GMs.

All the people above made good points - the best one being that if the game is enjoyed by both GM and players, then it's fine - don't fix what isn't broken. If the GM feels (as I often do) that they could do better, usually they try to find advice - what and how to do it better.

My NPCs are usually paper-thin, game world makes often some strange things, house rules usually speed up the play at the cost of...well, rules (I throw them out as I see fit, to great amusement of my players) and I'm not fair (I usually root for the players).

I have been accused of railroading (usually by people who only heard the stories, but didn't play in them), playing power fantasy (again the same) and other nice stuff. I don't make much of it if my players like my games.

The best example of this was, when one of my players, and a good friend/roommate, wanted to introduce a friend into my group. He asked about my playstyle and we immediately clashed - he asked whether he can PvP and kill a PC if he doesn't like it. I told him that I usually dislike PvP if it's not agreed-upon by both players and usually only non-lethal clashes (fistfights are OK, KOs are ok, some bruises...but killing is usually out of question). He then asked if I have problem with killing PCs - and I replied that I don't if they do something outright stupid, but I don't get PCs killed by bad rolls if they played smart (death is too easy, I usually imprison them, steal their stuff, etc.).

He told me he couldn't play my game and asked me to change it according to his requirements. Guess what happened? I told him we can agree to disagree and I'll continue playing as I like it - and as my players like it. He threw a rant, said some not pleasant things and I've never heard from him :smallsmile:.

And now I did exactly what Felyndiira wrote - vented a bit, told a story. If someone points out that I did something wrong, I will think about it and if I find them correct and their idea good (e.g. week ago I was shown that I understood the D&D combat completely wrong and I will give it a try again sometimes in the future), I will implement it. But if not, I'll wave my hand and go on as I did with the player from my story.

So - enjoy the game. If everyone at the table enjoys it, it's not a bad game. It's a hobby - something that brings pleasure and relax. But - stay aware, collect feedback, so you know what to improve.

Kami2awa
2016-02-17, 06:29 AM
I don't think its a good idea to complain that "the game world doesn't make sense". To be quite honest, the real world doesn't make absolute sense a lot of the time, and shooting down someone's sub-created world because, in your opinion, there are flaws in it strikes me as just bad manners.

The same goes for "NPCs are stupid". Unless your PC is a perfect mind-reader, you don't know the exact motivations of NPCs, and in any case not everyone acts with perfect sense all of the time. These aren't good reasons to disrupt a game.

Airk
2016-02-17, 10:53 AM
I don't think its a good idea to complain that "the game world doesn't make sense". To be quite honest, the real world doesn't make absolute sense a lot of the time, and shooting down someone's sub-created world because, in your opinion, there are flaws in it strikes me as just bad manners.

The same goes for "NPCs are stupid". Unless your PC is a perfect mind-reader, you don't know the exact motivations of NPCs, and in any case not everyone acts with perfect sense all of the time. These aren't good reasons to disrupt a game.

I think both of these are legitimate complaints, because frankly, a lot of the time they are true. Sometimes, even though you don't know everything, it's clear the GM isn't trying either.

JeenLeen
2016-02-17, 11:49 AM
The same goes for "NPCs are stupid". Unless your PC is a perfect mind-reader, you don't know the exact motivations of NPCs, and in any case not everyone acts with perfect sense all of the time. These aren't good reasons to disrupt a game.

Sometimes in my group, one of the players will assert that an NPC is acting out-of-character or without good motivations, or just stupid. I've said this to our usual DM, and he's said it to me when I'm playing. It's usually from frustration at the PC goals being thwarted or at trying to comprehend a situation that seems not to make sense. Often, the answer has been (if the players insist on an answer) "No, it makes sense. I know what this NPC is doing, and there is out-of-character info you don't know" or "...huh... yeah, I guess he is acting kinda dumb. Well, go with it, and my apologies. I should have worked harder on the story."

In some groups, such 'backtalk' might not fly or be considered rude, but we've been friends about 15-20 years, so it works out. We also trust those who GM to run a consistent and reasonable world. Well, I trust our usual GM, and he and the other players are willing to cut me some slack if I'm GMing. Being able to ask this question lets us know if we're just missing something (and thus we might go into an investigative side-story) or if it's nothing (and thus we don't waste the time).

---
To the general topic: I can see such players, as mentioned in the OP, being helpful if they come from a truly helpful and humble position. Often it probably leads to problems and upset. I agree with others that if gamestyle clashes too much, it's best to put it aside. I know one gaming group I'm hesitant to play with due to style differences, and I'd need to alter my play style a fair deal to fit in well with them. If I'm willing to and can still have fun, great; if not, then I don't play RPGs with them but might still do board games or other hang-out stuff.

hellspawnfish
2016-02-17, 03:01 PM
The player is not "suddenly" gone. The player didn't like the game and they left, and more power to them. You might be content in a problematic game, and that's okay. We all close our eyes to one flaw or another while we game (and in life in general), it's a matter of what you're willing to put up with. Doesn't mean it's not problematic.

I'm actually this sort of player quite often because I'm not willing to put up with a lot. Most of the time I won't even stop to explain why your game has problems as I leave. It's not my responsibility to tell you why your game sucks if you seem to like it :smalltongue:

Still not sure why the OP even started the topic though?

Talakeal
2016-02-17, 09:20 PM
So this thread makes me want to share a story.


As some of you may now, I was recently involved in the worst campaign ever, and was stressing out about it and sharing lots of crazy stories.

The DM basically uses the game as an excuse to boss people around. He constantly lies to us and criticizes us for everything. If we make good tactical decisions he mocks us for lack of role-play, if we make poor tactical decisions he mocks us for being stupid. He doesn't communicate and then blames us for not understanding him. He fudges dice and monster HP constantly. He tells us where to sit and how to fill out our character sheets. He won't let us take our character sheets home or show them to each other. He won't let us share character concepts before play but he bans any character he feels steps on another's toes. He randomly removes, adds, or changes aspects of our character, both mechanical and fluff, without telling us. He yells at us for using our smart phones during the session. He doesn't know the rules, but he pretends he does, if we correct him he calls us rules lawyers, even if he changed the rule on the spot from how we were doing it previously. He tells us how to roll dice and write notes. He refuses to let us look at the rule books of the game. If there is a rules disagreement where you actually show him where he is wrong after the game using your own rules he either won't look at it or flat out denies it, and if you try and save face by stating it is ambiguous he laughs in your face and says no it isn't you are just wrong.

He belittles people outside of the game to. He asks every knew player what degree they have, then tells them how worthless it is and claims to have a more prestigious degree in a related (but superior) field. He corrects other people's gaming stories telling them they were cheating / playing wrong (and see above if you try and defend yourself). We spend the first hour+ of each session listening to him lecture us about conspiracy theories, comic books, or "historical trivia" that is just complete nonsense; folk stories at best and outright made up lies at worst.

Basically, he is incredibly dishonest and a control freak, and he can't go more than five minutes without criticizing one of his players. If they don't do anything to warrant criticism he will just make something up.


So I was not having fun and finding excuses not to show up. One night a while back he announced a new rule, we weren't allowed to roll our own dice. When I protested how bad an idea that was he said "Ok, I didn't want to say it but I am going to since you forced the issue. The problem is YOU. You are a dice thief, and anytime I let you touch the dice you hoard it and don't give it back. I didn't want to call you out in front of everyone, but you forced my hand," I told him that was ridiculous and even if it was true, we have plenty of dice and there has never been a shortage, I could bring a whole bucket of dice from home and go the entire campaign throwing them away after each roll without ever running low.

He shrugged and said sorry, but I couldn't be trusted with his dice and he couldn't trust me to use my own dice. I said if you have that much of a problem with me I think I am just going to save us both a lot of trouble and go home.

Then he said "So you are going to quit the game over something as stupid as dice?" to which I said "No, it isn't dice. This is just the last of many things. For example we have only been playing for 10 minutes and you have already chewed me out over X, Y, and Z, and chewed out the other players over A, B, and C. I just can't take anymore."

To which he replied, "Look, those are the RULES, and I can't abide by people in my house not following the rules (keep in mind this is the guy who calls us rules lawyers anytime we question his calls)," to which I replied "No, the aren't. But that's not the point. This is supposed to be a game, and it is supposed to be fun, and it just isn't fun when you are constantly riding us like a drill sergeant."

And then he said, "I wouldn't have to ride you so hard if you guys would just learn to follow the rules and play the game right," to which I said "Ok, fine, its our fault, and I am just not capable of playing at your level. So I am going to do us both a favor and just not show up anymore so you don't have to deal with me." And then I left.



Now then, the other day I ran into one of the other players outside of the game and talked to them, and I was absolutely shocked to learn that they unanimously agreed that I was the bad guy in that exchange. That walking out of the game was childish and rude and that I was, and I quote "Throwing a temper tantrum because I didn't get my way,".

So yeah, I am not sure exactly what point I am trying to make, but I wanted to share the story and this seems to be along the lines of what the OP is talking about.

JNAProductions
2016-02-17, 09:24 PM
So this thread makes me want to share a story.


As some of you may now, I was recently involved in the worst campaign ever, and was stressing out about it and sharing lots of crazy stories.

The DM basically uses the game as an excuse to boss people around. He constantly lies to us and criticizes us for everything. If we make good tactical decisions he mocks us for lack of role-play, if we make poor tactical decisions he mocks us for being stupid. He doesn't communicate and then blames us for not understanding him. He fudges dice and monster HP constantly. He tells us where to sit and how to fill out our character sheets. He won't let us take our character sheets home or show them to each other. He won't let us share character concepts before play but he bans any character he feels steps on another's toes. He randomly removes, adds, or changes aspects of our character, both mechanical and fluff, without telling us. He yells at us for using our smart phones during the session. He doesn't know the rules, but he pretends he does, if we correct him he calls us rules lawyers, even if he changed the rule on the spot from how we were doing it previously. He tells us how to roll dice and write notes. He refuses to let us look at the rule books of the game. If there is a rules disagreement where you actually show him where he is wrong after the game using your own rules he either won't look at it or flat out denies it, and if you try and save face by stating it is ambiguous he laughs in your face and says no it isn't you are just wrong.

He belittles people outside of the game to. He asks every knew player what degree they have, then tells them how worthless it is and claims to have a more prestigious degree in a related (but superior) field. He corrects other people's gaming stories telling them they were cheating / playing wrong (and see above if you try and defend yourself). We spend the first hour+ of each session listening to him lecture us about conspiracy theories, comic books, or "historical trivia" that is just complete nonsense; folk stories at best and outright made up lies at worst.

Basically, he is incredibly dishonest and a control freak, and he can't go more than five minutes without criticizing one of his players. If they don't do anything to warrant criticism he will just make something up.


So I was not having fun and finding excuses not to show up. One night a while back he announced a new rule, we weren't allowed to roll our own dice. When I protested how bad an idea that was he said "Ok, I didn't want to say it but I am going to since you forced the issue. The problem is YOU. You are a dice thief, and anytime I let you touch the dice you hoard it and don't give it back. I didn't want to call you out in front of everyone, but you forced my hand," I told him that was ridiculous and even if it was true, we have plenty of dice and there has never been a shortage, I could bring a whole bucket of dice from home and go the entire campaign throwing them away after each roll without ever running low.

He shrugged and said sorry, but I couldn't be trusted with his dice and he couldn't trust me to use my own dice. I said if you have that much of a problem with me I think I am just going to save us both a lot of trouble and go home.

Then he said "So you are going to quit the game over something as stupid as dice?" to which I said "No, it isn't dice. This is just the last of many things. For example we have only been playing for 10 minutes and you have already chewed me out over X, Y, and Z, and chewed out the other players over A, B, and C. I just can't take anymore."

To which he replied, "Look, those are the RULES, and I can't abide by people in my house not following the rules (keep in mind this is the guy who calls us rules lawyers anytime we question his calls)," to which I replied "No, the aren't. But that's not the point. This is supposed to be a game, and it is supposed to be fun, and it just isn't fun when you are constantly riding us like a drill sergeant."

And then he said, "I wouldn't have to ride you so hard if you guys would just learn to follow the rules and play the game right," to which I said "Ok, fine, its our fault, and I am just not capable of playing at your level. So I am going to do us both a favor and just not show up anymore so you don't have to deal with me." And then I left.



Now then, the other day I ran into one of the other players outside of the game and talked to them, and I was absolutely shocked to learn that they unanimously agreed that I was the bad guy in that exchange. That walking out of the game was childish and rude and that I was, and I quote "Throwing a temper tantrum because I didn't get my way,".

So yeah, I am not sure exactly what point I am trying to make, but I wanted to share the story and this seems to be along the lines of what the OP is talking about.

Wut. YOU WERE THE BAD GUY? Look, let's assume you're exaggerating for the sake of the story. Let's assume everything you posted is only 1/10th true. I don't think so, but let's assume.

YOU STILL WOULDN'T BE THE BAD GUY!

AvatarVecna
2016-02-17, 09:29 PM
So this thread makes me want to share a story.


As some of you may now, I was recently involved in the worst campaign ever, and was stressing out about it and sharing lots of crazy stories.

The DM basically uses the game as an excuse to boss people around. He constantly lies to us and criticizes us for everything. If we make good tactical decisions he mocks us for lack of role-play, if we make poor tactical decisions he mocks us for being stupid. He doesn't communicate and then blames us for not understanding him. He fudges dice and monster HP constantly. He tells us where to sit and how to fill out our character sheets. He won't let us take our character sheets home or show them to each other. He won't let us share character concepts before play but he bans any character he feels steps on another's toes. He randomly removes, adds, or changes aspects of our character, both mechanical and fluff, without telling us. He yells at us for using our smart phones during the session. He doesn't know the rules, but he pretends he does, if we correct him he calls us rules lawyers, even if he changed the rule on the spot from how we were doing it previously. He tells us how to roll dice and write notes. He refuses to let us look at the rule books of the game. If there is a rules disagreement where you actually show him where he is wrong after the game using your own rules he either won't look at it or flat out denies it, and if you try and save face by stating it is ambiguous he laughs in your face and says no it isn't you are just wrong.

He belittles people outside of the game to. He asks every knew player what degree they have, then tells them how worthless it is and claims to have a more prestigious degree in a related (but superior) field. He corrects other people's gaming stories telling them they were cheating / playing wrong (and see above if you try and defend yourself). We spend the first hour+ of each session listening to him lecture us about conspiracy theories, comic books, or "historical trivia" that is just complete nonsense; folk stories at best and outright made up lies at worst.

Basically, he is incredibly dishonest and a control freak, and he can't go more than five minutes without criticizing one of his players. If they don't do anything to warrant criticism he will just make something up.


So I was not having fun and finding excuses not to show up. One night a while back he announced a new rule, we weren't allowed to roll our own dice. When I protested how bad an idea that was he said "Ok, I didn't want to say it but I am going to since you forced the issue. The problem is YOU. You are a dice thief, and anytime I let you touch the dice you hoard it and don't give it back. I didn't want to call you out in front of everyone, but you forced my hand," I told him that was ridiculous and even if it was true, we have plenty of dice and there has never been a shortage, I could bring a whole bucket of dice from home and go the entire campaign throwing them away after each roll without ever running low.

He shrugged and said sorry, but I couldn't be trusted with his dice and he couldn't trust me to use my own dice. I said if you have that much of a problem with me I think I am just going to save us both a lot of trouble and go home.

Then he said "So you are going to quit the game over something as stupid as dice?" to which I said "No, it isn't dice. This is just the last of many things. For example we have only been playing for 10 minutes and you have already chewed me out over X, Y, and Z, and chewed out the other players over A, B, and C. I just can't take anymore."

To which he replied, "Look, those are the RULES, and I can't abide by people in my house not following the rules (keep in mind this is the guy who calls us rules lawyers anytime we question his calls)," to which I replied "No, the aren't. But that's not the point. This is supposed to be a game, and it is supposed to be fun, and it just isn't fun when you are constantly riding us like a drill sergeant."

And then he said, "I wouldn't have to ride you so hard if you guys would just learn to follow the rules and play the game right," to which I said "Ok, fine, its our fault, and I am just not capable of playing at your level. So I am going to do us both a favor and just not show up anymore so you don't have to deal with me." And then I left.



Now then, the other day I ran into one of the other players outside of the game and talked to them, and I was absolutely shocked to learn that they unanimously agreed that I was the bad guy in that exchange. That walking out of the game was childish and rude and that I was, and I quote "Throwing a temper tantrum because I didn't get my way,".

So yeah, I am not sure exactly what point I am trying to make, but I wanted to share the story and this seems to be along the lines of what the OP is talking about.

Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say. Forget that awful group and that awful DM and move on with your gaming life to groups that actually operate on rules and logic rather than conspiracy theories and bullying behavior.

NichG
2016-02-17, 10:03 PM
Mental attitude matters. It's possible to adopt an attitude that will help you enjoy an objectively bad game, and it's possible to be unable to enjoy an objectively good game because you brought the wrong attitude to the table (e.g. if you're in a really bad mood, even a good game may feel unbearable).

Not that many people think 'I'm not having fun, so I will change myself to be a person who can have fun here' - it's a lot easier to think about changing the environment as a way to resolve that tension, and its not so easy to just say 'I'm going to be in a good mood now' and have it be true.

Deophaun
2016-02-18, 12:25 AM
Now then, the other day I ran into one of the other players outside of the game and talked to them, and I was absolutely shocked to learn that they unanimously agreed that I was the bad guy in that exchange. That walking out of the game was childish and rude and that I was, and I quote "Throwing a temper tantrum because I didn't get my way,".
This is what tends to happen when you are tried in absentia. Just move on and forget them.

The Glyphstone
2016-02-18, 12:48 AM
Talakeal lives in and posts from the Bizarro Gaming Dimension, remember? It's a world identical to ours, except there the usual standards for good gaming are inverted and reversed.

Talakeal
2016-02-18, 12:53 AM
This is what tends to happen when you are tried in absentia. Just move on and forget them.

Good point.

Comet
2016-02-18, 01:30 AM
So this thread makes me want to share a story.
[snip]
So yeah, I am not sure exactly what point I am trying to make, but I wanted to share the story and this seems to be along the lines of what the OP is talking about.

Oh god, that makes me so damn madddddd. Usually these player horror stories don't have much of an effect on me, but this one has just the right combination of a genuinely bad person, bad gaming and utter and complete apathy on the part of everyone else who stayed behind. My heart goes out to you and that wreck you left behind.

Jon_Dahl
2016-02-18, 02:17 PM
Still not sure why the OP even started the topic though?

I just started it to share my thoughts. No need to even try to read between the lines.

Tiktik Ironclaw
2016-02-18, 04:27 PM
Ugh. Talakeal, I remember reading that botched NES RPG of a campaign when you were posting it, and my heart goes out to you. I hate moronic sheeple like the ones you had to deal with, they make my blood boil and urge me to bash their heads into walls, probably because I'm already beating my own head bloody against one. I hope that neckbeard of a delusional, control-freak narcissist 'DM' gets what he so richly deserves.

Darth Ultron
2016-02-18, 09:07 PM
So much of the game really has to do with different views and options. So it is really hard to say someone has a ''good reason''. Things like ''the world does not make sense'' are just pointless landmines. As is saying things like ''dysfunctional house rules''.

It is far more common that the new player is wrong and not right.....assuming anyone could be wrong or right anyway. Far too many players now a days just endless complain anyway.

And even when the player in question is a good person, and this is very rare, they are often complaining about something they know nothing about. Like they meet an NPC for all of five minutes and make the judgment that the ''npc is stupid''. And, even if it is true that the ''npc is acting stupid''....it is possible that is part of the game. Or that the player just has a crazy low bar of ''stupid''.

Talakeal
2016-02-18, 10:20 PM
So much of the game really has to do with different views and options. So it is really hard to say someone has a ''good reason''. Things like ''the world does not make sense'' are just pointless landmines. As is saying things like ''dysfunctional house rules''.

It is far more common that the new player is wrong and not right.....assuming anyone could be wrong or right anyway. Far too many players now a days just endless complain anyway.

And even when the player in question is a good person, and this is very rare, they are often complaining about something they know nothing about. Like they meet an NPC for all of five minutes and make the judgment that the ''npc is stupid''. And, even if it is true that the ''npc is acting stupid''....it is possible that is part of the game. Or that the player just has a crazy low bar of ''stupid''.

Well, a lot of it is opinion, but other things are matters of objective fact. For example, my ex-DM would flat out lie to his players out of character. He also insisted that a +1 bonus and roll twice take the best are mathematically identical; this is easy to prove as objectively false, but anytime we tried he would simply go on a rant about all his advanced degrees in mathematics and say that we didn't know what we were talking about.

Also, saying that most players are not "good people" is really more of a commentary on humanity (or at least gamers) as a whole rather than players as very few people just DM.

Darth Ultron
2016-02-19, 12:03 AM
Well, a lot of it is opinion, but other things are matters of objective fact.

Yea, but it's a tricky and slippery slope once you move beyond things like pure math. Maybe.



Also, saying that most players are not "good people" is really more of a commentary on humanity (or at least gamers) as a whole rather than players as very few people just DM.

Definitely a commentary on humanity.

I've seen a huge change in gamers over the years. Once they kept quiet and simply had fun and played the game. The more modern ones are loud and playing the ''vs the DM'' game and are just waiting for a chance to yell, stop the game and ruin the fun for everyone.

ImNotTrevor
2016-02-19, 03:46 AM
Yea, but it's a tricky and slippery slope once you move beyond things like pure math. Maybe.



Definitely a commentary on humanity.

I've seen a huge change in gamers over the years. Once they kept quiet and simply had fun and played the game. The more modern ones are loud and playing the ''vs the DM'' game and are just waiting for a chance to yell, stop the game and ruin the fun for everyone.

I am glad that I apparently live on a very different planet with entirely different kinds of human beings. Because I have never done either of what you explained. Namely:
A. Had fun because the players just shut up and did what I told them to. That's...not fun, for me. At all. I can accomplish the same by writing a novel.

B. Ever felt like it was me VS them. I usually experience RPGs as excellent collaborative experiences where we learn about badass characters being badass, and the world reacts to them and the ripples of epicness sluffing off of them. And most of our loudness (in my experience) comes from bursts of laughter and cries of triumph over the challenges put forth, or barely-made critically important rolls that change the entire nature of the situation. (Going from being holed up in a hotel waiting for mercenaries to bust down the door, to making a business deal with them for a large sum of money, thanks to very good fictional positioning and some very lucky rolls.)

I'm not saying it's all green fields and poppies. But I simply can't fathom either of those two situations, be it a "That sounds like the opposite of fun" or "I've never experienced this."

Lacco
2016-02-19, 04:03 AM
Definitely a commentary on humanity.

I've seen a huge change in gamers over the years. Once they kept quiet and simply had fun and played the game. The more modern ones are loud and playing the ''vs the DM'' game and are just waiting for a chance to yell, stop the game and ruin the fun for everyone.


I am glad that I apparently live on a very different planet with entirely different kinds of human beings. Because I have never done either of what you explained. Namely:

A. Had fun because the players just shut up and did what I told them to. That's...not fun, for me. At all. I can accomplish the same by writing a novel.

B. Ever felt like it was me VS them. I usually experience RPGs as excellent collaborative experiences where we learn about badass characters being badass, and the world reacts to them and the ripples of epicness sluffing off of them. And most of our loudness (in my experience) comes from bursts of laughter and cries of triumph over the challenges put forth, or barely-made critically important rolls that change the entire nature of the situation. (Going from being holed up in a hotel waiting for mercenaries to bust down the door, to making a business deal with them for a large sum of money, thanks to very good fictional positioning and some very lucky rolls.)

I'm not saying it's all green fields and poppies. But I simply can't fathom either of those two situations, be it a "That sounds like the opposite of fun" or "I've never experienced this."

I also agree - I am glad that I live in a fantasy land full of players who actively want to enjoy the game together with the GM, don't backstab each other, don't try to ruin the game for anyone, laugh & and have fun, and enjoy it.

Maybe that's why I can't really reply to a "but players will try to ruin this by doing X, Y and Z and metagegamepowergamunchkinmaxing" - I seldom had that stuff happen around me.

However, I also encountered several of the other kind of players - the kind that Darth Ultron is talking about. My solution? I didn't game with them. Maybe that's why I have so few players :smallbiggrin:. And why I enjoy gaming. And have very few horror stories to share :smallsmile:.