Druid and Wild Shape. A slew of questions [Archive]

Calar_Gaia

2016-02-16, 04:12 PM

JumboWheat01

2016-02-16, 04:29 PM

Questions 1 & 3 are pretty much the same. As far as I see, you become what you turn into, so if it's a beast, you become a beast, not a humanoid/beast or even a magical beast. New resistances and weaknesses now apply. That would mean, in my reading, if a transformed druid try to attack a land druid, he may have problems.

As for question two, I suppose that's possible, since wild shapes can last longer than the duration of a short rest. It's awfully cheesy sounding though, and sounds more like an attempt to make up for loosing the amazing capstone that druids have.

I'm not really sure about your fourth question though.

Talamare

2016-02-16, 04:34 PM

His gnome barbarian may have all the resistance in the world, but once he transform. He basically loses them all.

Sir cryosin

2016-02-16, 04:50 PM

His gnome barbarian may have all the resistance in the world, but once he transform. He basically loses them all.

I don't believe so. And why would you come to that conclusion

Talamare

2016-02-16, 05:15 PM

I don't believe so. And why would you come to that conclusion
You can retain features that the dm says your beast would be able to maintain.

RulesJD

2016-02-16, 05:21 PM

You can retain features that the dm says your beast would be able to maintain.

"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."

Yes, Gnomes retain their Gnomish Cunning while Wild Shaped. Dragonborn dragon breath not so much, but this is something they are physically capable of doing. Same for Halfling lucky, Human Variant extra feat, etc.

RickAllison

2016-02-16, 05:22 PM

You can retain features that the dm says your beast would be able to maintain.

The PHB says "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so." The barbarian Rage feature is simply "you fight with primal ferocity." Seems just fine to use with Wild Shape (heck, if it was a check he would probably get advantage!).

Silavor

2016-02-16, 05:31 PM

It is a common Warlock tactic to maintain concentration on Hex over a short rest to get the spell slot back. If it works for Warlocks and Hex, it should also work for Moon Druids and Wildshape.

Talamare

2016-02-16, 05:44 PM

"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."

Yes, Gnomes retain their Gnomish Cunning while Wild Shaped. Dragonborn dragon breath not so much, but this is something they are physically capable of doing. Same for Halfling lucky, Human Variant extra feat, etc.

An animal isn't able to be cunning like a gnome. As I said. "Whatever the dm allows"

Mellack

2016-02-16, 06:01 PM

An animal isn't able to be cunning like a gnome. As I said. "Whatever the dm allows"

But you never took the mind of the animal. It says you "retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores." So I would say mentally you are still a gnome, but as you said, up to the DM.

RickAllison

2016-02-16, 06:03 PM

An animal isn't able to be cunning like a gnome. As I said. "Whatever the dm allows"

Semantics Argument: a gnome is an animal.

Actual Argument: cunning is completely independent of intelligence. Velociraptors, wolves, seagulls, apes, all are animals that have used cunning despite lower intelligence. The raptors and the wolves learned how to hunt in such a way that multiplied their strength. Seagulls and various other birds have used various tools (the most basic of which is gravity: it is a common tactic for coastal birds to drop shellfish from great heights). Apes might be out of discussion since they are approaching much closer to human intellect than the rest. Some snakes evolved caudal luring, which is basically using their tails as a fake worm to catch prey, and the alligator snapping turtle learned to pull a similar tactic with its tongue. Green herons actually fish with bait! Cunning is a very prevalent trait in animals that lack the intelligence of humans and the raw athleticism of other beasts.

EDIT: ... I didn't even bother remembering that druids keep their mental statistics. Oh well, it still applies for Polymorph at least!

RulesJD

2016-02-16, 06:06 PM

An animal isn't able to be cunning like a gnome. As I said. "Whatever the dm allows"

Good thing the rules don't care what you think. Because it's a trait of the players "race" that is physically capable of being maintained in whatever animal form, unlike the Dragonborn's breath weapon or the Aarakokra's (sp) flight.

eastmabl

2016-02-16, 06:14 PM

Semantics Argument: a gnome is an animal.

That's what all the soldiers told themselves as they threw the gnomes into Baba Yaga's stove.

Talamare

2016-02-16, 06:20 PM

Good thing the rules don't care what you think. Because it's a trait of the players "race" that is physically capable of being maintained in whatever animal form, unlike the Dragonborn's breath weapon or the Aarakokra's (sp) flight.

Easy, it's not physically able to be maintained. You don't know how gnomes have that resistant, how do you know its not a physical trait, like an extra organ in their brain. DM decides

SharkForce

2016-02-16, 06:21 PM

Hey all. In our campaign we have the pleasure of a Moon Druid, which normally is cool and exciting but recently has brought around many questions. I'll push the blame on how the entire Wild Shape section is written. Numerical list for ease of answering!

1) At 10th level the Moon Druid can use both uses of his Wild Shape to become an elemental. Elementals do not require air, sleep, food or drink; they also don't age. Is a druid wild shaping into an Elemental truly becoming an elemental? Or is he merely assuming it's shape, stats, and abilities?

2) I'm pretty certain that this is true, but for peace of mind. If the druid turns into an elemental (or animal, no difference), and short rests, he now has his original wild shape, and another stored up? Having two uses of Earth Elemental shape just seems like a huge amount of effective hit points (504 HPs if fighting anything it's resistant to) on top of his wild shape heals, and druid hit points.

3) When Wild Shaped, does the druid retain his humanoid tag? Or is he becoming a beast/elemental for sake of spells pertaining to humanoids/beasts/elementals? Ex. Does hold person work on a wild shaped druid, or dominate beast?

4) The air elemental has a fly speed of 90 ft, but 0 ft walking speed. Is special movement (swimming in this example) possible with fly speed? If so, it seems odd that a bird, a Roc for example, can move 60 ft underwater, 120 ft with a dash.

I appreciate any help that can be given. Our party for the most part is simple (11th level bard wizard monk druid). But where the bard, wizard, and monk play straight forward, the druid is min/maxing (we don't really have an issue with that) but has begun to outshine every other person. He's a gnomish Moon Druid (for the advantage on int/wis/cha saves), with 1 level dipped into Barbarian for the rage resistance/grapple advantage, bonus to some of his wild shape forms AC, and soon to be resistant to all when he gets 3rd level Barbarian with Totem of the Bear.

1) he is an elemental, but I'd say once he returns to human form age at least would catch up. everything else, well, he didn't need to breathe while wildshaped, and it won't retroactively harm him that he didn't breathe.

2) yes, but you're missing something important. his offense is also pathetic. sure, he's got a lot of HP. who cares. what's he doing in the fight that makes his HP of any use? why is anything even attacking him when his entire offensive capabilities consist of doing something like half as much damage as the fighter does, assuming the fighter doesn't even care enough to expend resources like action surge or archetype abilities. so he's got a lot of hit points. big deal. he can't do anything particularly impressive until he either stops being an elemental, or hits level 18 (ie once he can cast spells). if he could turn into an elemental at level 5, I suppose that'd be pretty significant, but he can't, so he's basically a mobile wall of stone spell. which isn't nothing, but unless the encounter calls for a mobile wall of stone spell or is so trivial that you can afford to fight it with a wall of stone instead of a proper level 10 character, you should be fine.

3) he's an elemental. spells that work on elementals work on him, spells that work on humans don't (unless they also work on elementals of course).

4) in this specific case, I would say the fly speed is only a fly speed, not a base speed. elementals don't go into places where their element is completely absent. if there are any other animals with no ground speed, I'd deal with it on an as-needed basis, but generally speaking, a flying speed will never be considered their base speed.

Fable Wright

2016-02-16, 08:41 PM

2) yes, but you're missing something important. his offense is also pathetic. sure, he's got a lot of HP. who cares. what's he doing in the fight that makes his HP of any use? why is anything even attacking him when his entire offensive capabilities consist of doing something like half as much damage as the fighter does, assuming the fighter doesn't even care enough to expend resources like action surge or archetype abilities. so he's got a lot of hit points. big deal. he can't do anything particularly impressive until he either stops being an elemental, or hits level 18 (ie once he can cast spells). if he could turn into an elemental at level 5, I suppose that'd be pretty significant, but he can't, so he's basically a mobile wall of stone spell. which isn't nothing, but unless the encounter calls for a mobile wall of stone spell or is so trivial that you can afford to fight it with a wall of stone instead of a proper level 10 character, you should be fine.

Well, he can do a bit more than that.

Step 1: Summon 16 wolves.
Step 2: Turn into a damage resistant earth elemental with bonus action.
Step 3: When enemy is tripped by wolves, grapple them to keep them down.

But yeah. Being an elemental without a concentration spell running, or at least the Standstill feat, is pretty terrible and incredibly unimpressive unless it's for out of combat utility. A combat as an elemental without a concentration spell running goes a little something like this: Enemy ignores wall of rock, rock doesn't have Standstill, rock has a sad. Giving up three caster levels to become a harder rock is not something to be proud of, nor something to worry about.

RulesJD

2016-02-17, 10:28 AM

Well, he can do a bit more than that.

Step 1: Summon 16 wolves.
Step 2: Turn into a damage resistant earth elemental with bonus action.
Step 3: When enemy is tripped by wolves, grapple them to keep them down.

But yeah. Being an elemental without a concentration spell running, or at least the Standstill feat, is pretty terrible and incredibly unimpressive unless it's for out of combat utility. A combat as an elemental without a concentration spell running goes a little something like this: Enemy ignores wall of rock, rock doesn't have Standstill, rock has a sad. Giving up three caster levels to become a harder rock is not something to be proud of, nor something to worry about.

Do you mean Sentinel feat? Because that's basically a feat tax on Druids, but it is what it is.

But yes, a Druid should have a concentration spell up before any Wildshape. Upcast Moonbeam/Heat Metal/Flaming Sphere are all good contenders. Grapple on first attack (be sure to get Athletics proficiency of course), and then hold in the Moonbeam. Can still use your second attack while also forcing the enemy to take the Moonbeam damage without using your Action every turn.

RulesJD

2016-02-17, 10:29 AM

Easy, it's not physically able to be maintained. You don't know how gnomes have that resistant, how do you know its not a physical trait, like an extra organ in their brain. DM decides

Congrats, you're no longer playing D&D according to the creators, who already allow Racial/Class traits to carry over into animal form (See: Barbarian/Monk Unarmored defense working in wildshape form, etc).

Have fun being wrong in whatever game you're now playing.

Segev

2016-02-17, 10:37 AM

It is a common Warlock tactic to maintain concentration on Hex over a short rest to get the spell slot back. If it works for Warlocks and Hex, it should also work for Moon Druids and Wildshape.Isn't hex a debuff on an enemy? How are warlocks maintaining it over a short rest; do they frequently encounter a foe, leave it alive, and have liberty to short rest before hunting it down again? Or am I misremembering what hex does?

Easy, it's not physically able to be maintained. You don't know how gnomes have that resistant, how do you know its not a physical trait, like an extra organ in their brain. DM decides

That's a hilarious reading, and only a DM who is desperately trying to pretend he isn't injecting a house-ruled nerf would make that claim. (Why DMs try to claim their house rules are actually the RAW always baffles me; their table can have whatever house rules they want to apply.)

SharkForce

2016-02-17, 11:05 AM

Isn't hex a debuff on an enemy? How are warlocks maintaining it over a short rest; do they frequently encounter a foe, leave it alive, and have liberty to short rest before hunting it down again? Or am I misremembering what hex does?

when you cast hex, you choose a target. after that target dies, you can choose a new target. nothing says you must choose immediately, so you just keep concentrating on the spell for the duration (which can be up to 8 hours as i recall), and eventually when you decide on a new target, you use your bonus action to designate them as such.

RulesJD

2016-02-17, 11:08 AM

when you cast hex, you choose a target. after that target dies, you can choose a new target. nothing says you must choose immediately, so you just keep concentrating on the spell for the duration (which can be up to 8 hours as i recall), and eventually when you decide on a new target, you use your bonus action to designate them as such.

Apparently in older editions there was the "bag of rats" trick, but he's correct. You can maintain it over a short rest once Hex levels up.

I'm actually playing a higher level druid and hadn't thought about the duration lasting longer than a short rest. Nice way to make Elemental form a bit better.

SharkForce

2016-02-17, 11:11 AM

Apparently in older editions there was the "bag of rats" trick, but he's correct. You can maintain it over a short rest once Hex levels up.

I'm actually playing a higher level druid and hadn't thought about the duration lasting longer than a short rest. Nice way to make Elemental form a bit better.

using it to get an extra elemental form is only useful if you can somehow manage to get a useful spell out beforehand to concentrate on. this only works with 5 minute short rests, and if you're getting 5 minute short rests you shouldn't need an extra elemental form available anyways.

RulesJD

2016-02-17, 11:19 AM

using it to get an extra elemental form is only useful if you can somehow manage to get a useful spell out beforehand to concentrate on. this only works with 5 minute short rests, and if you're getting 5 minute short rests you shouldn't need an extra elemental form available anyways.

The Elemental forms are useful even without a concentration spell, albeit better if you have one. Use it as a free trap roomba, triggering massive enemy attacks while your party is out of range. Earthglide is especially fun

Talamare

2016-02-17, 11:21 AM

who already allow Racial/Class traits to carry over into animal form

That's a hilarious reading, and only a DM who is desperately trying to pretend he isn't injecting a house-ruled nerf would make that claim. (Why DMs try to claim their house rules are actually the RAW always baffles me; their table can have whatever house rules they want to apply.)

Okay, but you agree that you cannot use Dragon Breath while Wild Shape?
Why not?
Why can't you use Dragon Breath while Wild Shape?
Is it because the animal isn't able to produce the (let's say Flames for simplicity) while he's an animal?
Why can a Dragonborn produce the flames?
Perhaps the Dragonborn have an extra organ around their mouth/throat that produces Flames?
You also can't transfer special senses, like Dark Vission
Why not? Perhaps because Wild Shape doesn't transfer over Organs

How does a Gnome get those resistance?
It isn't just being clever or wise, there are smarter and trickier beings in the universe that doesn't have that resistance

So, I'll say it a final time before I leave this thread
DM Decides

Fable Wright

2016-02-17, 11:27 AM

Do you mean Sentinel feat? Because that's basically a feat tax on Druids, but it is what it is.

But yes, a Druid should have a concentration spell up before any Wildshape. Upcast Moonbeam/Heat Metal/Flaming Sphere are all good contenders. Grapple on first attack (be sure to get Athletics proficiency of course), and then hold in the Moonbeam. Can still use your second attack while also forcing the enemy to take the Moonbeam damage without using your Action every turn.

Yes, I did mean the sentinel feat. That was 3.5 still warping my brain.

However, be aware, you cannot use Grapple and Multiattack. Multiattack does not grant you more than one attack action, it grants you the ability to use two specific attacks in a single action. Unless grapple is listed in multiattack, it's not an option.

I probably should've put Athletics on my druid, but character creation is past. Any advice how to get it, or is it best writ off, ignored in place of Crocodile grapple or water elemental autograpples, or something you can pass on entirely?

RickAllison

2016-02-17, 11:49 AM

Yes, I did mean the sentinel feat. That was 3.5 still warping my brain.

However, be aware, you cannot use Grapple and Multiattack. Multiattack does not grant you more than one attack action, it grants you the ability to use two specific attacks in a single action. Unless grapple is listed in multiattack, it's not an option.

I probably should've put Athletics on my druid, but character creation is past. Any advice how to get it, or is it best writ off, ignored in place of Crocodile grapple or water elemental autograpples, or something you can pass on entirely?

Athletics is fantastic to grab for a Druid. The escape DC of the giant crocodile, constrictor, octopi, and such are generated using 10+Athletics so a proficiency gives a massive boost to those forms that don't naturally have proficiency (i.e. a lot) even if they would naturally be good at it. The DMG says on page 231 that skill proficiency training can be given as a quest reward, so talk to your DM.

EDIT: @Talamare, here's my solution: let them use their breath attack! I am A-OK with the idea that biological traits of the base form could pass over because they are simply an ingrained part of the user. A dragonborn could keep his breath because he can't imagine not having those and they are not counter to his image of his animal forms. It gets awkward with Aarakocra and feral Tieflings, but they can get over it, the winged fellows.

Segev

2016-02-17, 11:51 AM

Okay, but you agree that you cannot use Dragon Breath while Wild Shape?Nope. Unless your form doesn't breathe - so fish or something - you can exhale, which makes you physically capable of using your racial feature to exhale fire (or whatever your dragon type lets you do).

You also can't transfer special senses, like Dark Vission
Why not? Perhaps because Wild Shape doesn't transfer over OrgansIf your new form is physically capable of seeing, your racial darkvision remains.

So, I'll say it a final time before I leave this thread
DM DecidesOf course he does. But that doesn't mean that it's not a house rule if he decides you can't do something your physical form is physically capable of doing.

Talamare

2016-02-17, 11:56 AM

Nope. Unless your form doesn't breathe - so fish or something - you can exhale, which makes you physically capable of using your racial feature to exhale fire (or whatever your dragon type lets you do).

If your new form is physically capable of seeing, your racial darkvision remains.

"you can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense."

So, nice troll attempt but you went too far and now your whole argument is in the mud

RickAllison

2016-02-17, 12:08 PM

RulesJD

2016-02-17, 12:19 PM

Okay, but you agree that you cannot use Dragon Breath while Wild Shape?
Why not?
Why can't you use Dragon Breath while Wild Shape?
Is it because the animal isn't able to produce the (let's say Flames for simplicity) while he's an animal?
Why can a Dragonborn produce the flames?
Perhaps the Dragonborn have an extra organ around their mouth/throat that produces Flames?
You also can't transfer special senses, like Dark Vission
Why not? Perhaps because Wild Shape doesn't transfer over Organs

How does a Gnome get those resistance?
It isn't just being clever or wise, there are smarter and trickier beings in the universe that doesn't have that resistance

So, I'll say it a final time before I leave this thread
DM Decides

Actually fair point, no I would let Dragon Breath still work. Aaracokra flying definitely not due to the physical lack of wings.

Yes, you can't transfer special senses, good thing the Wildshape description specifically calls out that one single instance (specific) as an exception to the general rule (Racial/Class traits carry over).

The argument gets a lot easier when you just admit that you're wrong and relying on a houserule.

Segev

2016-02-17, 12:19 PM

"you can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense."

So, nice troll attempt but you went too far and now your whole argument is in the mud

Accusations of trolling should not be posted on the forums. If you think he is, you can report it, but no more.

Additionally, forgetting a specific exclusion to the normal rule does not affect any of his other arguments; all it does is indicate that the individual argument is invalid.

Indeed. As Rick points out, my forgetting an explicit exception doesn't make my point invalid. In fact, it makes the fact that you brought it up as an example of something that proves your point a bit incongruous. If it is specifically called out, it definitely doesn't get covered by the default "anything your new form is physically capable of;" it's caught by a higher-precedence rule that calls it out specifically.

That it is specifically called out actually lends weight to the notion that, were it NOT called out, the default rule would be as I indicated. Because why else specifically call it out?

Saggo

2016-02-17, 12:24 PM

Okay, but you agree that you cannot use Dragon Breath while Wild Shape?
Why not?
Why can't you use Dragon Breath while Wild Shape?
Is it because the animal isn't able to produce the (let's say Flames for simplicity) while he's an animal?
Why can a Dragonborn produce the flames?
Perhaps the Dragonborn have an extra organ around their mouth/throat that produces Flames?
You also can't transfer special senses, like Dark Vission
Why not? Perhaps because Wild Shape doesn't transfer over Organs

How does a Gnome get those resistance?
It isn't just being clever or wise, there are smarter and trickier beings in the universe that doesn't have that resistance

So, I'll say it a final time before I leave this thread
DM Decides
That's a valid way of showing that DMs (or anyone really) can justify their choices, but you're also introducing added complexity that the published mechanics don't support.

joaber

2016-02-17, 12:48 PM

the real deal of short rest in elemental form isn't keep this forever, how everybody said, you need to cast a con spell first in an encounter.

But you can take a short rest in any place, under the ground as earth elemental, no surprise opportunity, and after the short rest, you can come back as elemental any time you want.

@Talamare, what the meaning of "cunning", please? All I see is about skill, cleaverness, ingenious, dexterity.

I can't understand how you compare this as a wings, fire glands, gills or a stone skin. But yeah, DM decides everything always. Good luck with your.

As a DM i'll be more inclinable to accept dragon breath wild shape because I rulled that is something magical, not physical, than forbid Gnome cunning.

Segev

2016-02-17, 12:54 PM

SharkForce

2016-02-17, 01:03 PM

The Elemental forms are useful even without a concentration spell, albeit better if you have one. Use it as a free trap roomba, triggering massive enemy attacks while your party is out of range. Earthglide is especially fun

sure, but you can make a trap roomba with an unseen servant and a wheelbarrow full of dirt. if your DM isn't generous enough to allow you to push more when it's on wheels, maybe you need 2 unseen servants.

earthglide is useful, i suppose, but it's also fairly limited. you can't take anyone else with you while you earthglide, you only have tremorsense to scout creatures with (which will probably give you a general size in addition to location but likely won't tell you whether they're drow or high elves, and may not even be enough to distinguish between hobgoblins and high elves), and you can't pass through man-made structures iirc. most of the time, you would gain just as much by wild shaping, doing whatever you were going to do, resting, and then having a new wild shape in reserve afterwards.

you can get some utility out of it from time to time, but practically speaking, most of the time you're not going to get dramatically more out of it. being an earth elemental simply isn't as good as being a druid (of course, once you get to be an earth elemental druid, it becomes a lot more useful).

JumboWheat01

2016-02-17, 01:26 PM

Mention of the capstone came up, and reminded me of something: Does it strike anybody else as odd that they go from "2 per short rest" for 90% of their career straight to "as many times as they want?" Why isn't there any point when they get 3 or 4 per short rest, for example?

I do find it quite odd. Barbarians, for instance, slowly gain more uses of Rage before they get their unlimited Rage (if I'm remembering correctly,) at 20.

Maybe they fealt that moon druids would be too powerful at lower levels if they could change more often... though the druid capstone is all sorts of godly. Unlimited wild shapes AND ignoring somatic, vocal and act like your holding a focus all the time no matter if your in humanoid form or wild shaped. Just how is that fair?

Segev

2016-02-17, 01:32 PM

The druid capstone is all sorts of godly. Unlimited wild shapes AND ignoring somatic, vocal and act like your holding a focus all the time no matter if your in humanoid form or wild shaped. Just how is that fair?

It's a level 20 capstone. I don't think "fair" entered into as much consideration, simply because of how rare it is to play a level 20 character.

Talamare

2016-02-17, 01:40 PM

It's a level 20 capstone. I don't think "fair" entered into as much consideration, simply because of how rare it is to play a level 20 character.

Capstones are broken

We have brokenly awesome capstones on Druid and Barbarian
and extremely 'meh' weak ones on Bard, Sorcerer, Monk... probably Cleric

It's like we had completely different designers on each class and they barely went over and discussed things at the end, otherwise we would either have the capstones all be more tamed, or all be more awesome

If anyone is familiar with 40k, it's like Matt Ward designed Barbarian

SharkForce

2016-02-17, 01:42 PM

It's a level 20 capstone. I don't think "fair" entered into as much consideration, simply because of how rare it is to play a level 20 character.

I dunno about that. other classes got some pretty cool capstones, but only the druid capstone is completely bonkers, and even then it's mostly only ridiculous for moon druids (still good for land druids, but much more in the realm of the other capstones.

I mean, for fighters you get an extra attack. that's nice and all, but it isn't "you'll probably never run out of HP ever again" combined with "if you can name a form of mobility other than teleport, you can probably give it to yourself whenever you feel like it as a bonus action" combined with "you have resistance to most damage which makes it far easier to concentrate on spells" on top of "you basically ignore spell components except for expensive ones now". never mind lame ducks like the monk's 4 ki points at the start of a fight if and only if they have none (better not save any points or you're screwed) or the sorcerer's 4 sorcery points per short rest.

even the better capstones, like the paladin ones, are likely to be usable in only one or two battles per day. and while good, they are nowhere near as ridiculous as the druid capstone is for a moon druid, even while active.

if all capstones are supposed to be ridiculous because it doesn't matter, they got it totally wrong for 11.5/12 classes

RulesJD

2016-02-17, 02:02 PM

I dunno about that. other classes got some pretty cool capstones, but only the druid capstone is completely bonkers, and even then it's mostly only ridiculous for moon druids (still good for land druids, but much more in the realm of the other capstones.

I mean, for fighters you get an extra attack. that's nice and all, but it isn't "you'll probably never run out of HP ever again" combined with "if you can name a form of mobility other than teleport, you can probably give it to yourself whenever you feel like it as a bonus action" combined with "you have resistance to most damage which makes it far easier to concentrate on spells" on top of "you basically ignore spell components except for expensive ones now". never mind lame ducks like the monk's 4 ki points at the start of a fight if and only if they have none (better not save any points or you're screwed) or the sorcerer's 4 sorcery points per short rest.

even the better capstones, like the paladin ones, are likely to be usable in only one or two battles per day. and while good, they are nowhere near as ridiculous as the druid capstone is for a moon druid, even while active.

if all capstones are supposed to be ridiculous because it doesn't matter, they got it totally wrong for 11.5/12 classes

Ironically, the best class to beat a capstone Druid is a Druid spell. Moonbeam = more or less completely disables the capstone effect. Very easy as the DM to put that spell in a Priest's spell boom and blam, suck it Druid.

Calar_Gaia

2016-02-17, 02:36 PM

Ironically, the best class to beat a capstone Druid is a Druid spell. Moonbeam = more or less completely disables the capstone effect. Very easy as the DM to put that spell in a Priest's spell boom and blam, suck it Druid.

Are Druids considered shapechangers though? I thought that, unless it was specifically called out in the stat block (or description in the druids case) that it wasn't one? It would trade off being better against Polymorph, but worse at Moonbeam. I've looked around and seen no certain answer either way.

RickAllison

2016-02-17, 02:52 PM

Are Druids considered shapechangers though? I thought that, unless it was specifically called out in the stat block (or description in the druids case) that it wasn't one? It would trade off being better against Polymorph, but worse at Moonbeam. I've looked around and seen no certain answer either way.

It would also mean that by RAW, they can't be affected by True Polymorph, not even at their choice! So no fully ascending to a Treant.

RulesJD

2016-02-17, 03:18 PM

Are Druids considered shapechangers though? I thought that, unless it was specifically called out in the stat block (or description in the druids case) that it wasn't one? It would trade off being better against Polymorph, but worse at Moonbeam. I've looked around and seen no certain answer either way.

Good point actually. I just kind of assumed that they are, but I can see why they could be viewed as not shapechangers. There is a "shapechanger" type in the Monster Manual (Doppleganger, etc) so that is an argument that Druids are, in fact, not shapechangers.

Vogonjeltz

2016-02-18, 08:47 AM

Capstones are broken

We have brokenly awesome capstones on Druid and Barbarian
and extremely 'meh' weak ones on Bard, Sorcerer, Monk... probably Cleric

It's like we had completely different designers on each class and they barely went over and discussed things at the end, otherwise we would either have the capstones all be more tamed, or all be more awesome

If anyone is familiar with 40k, it's like Matt Ward designed Barbarian

Under no circumstances would I classify automatic intervention by a deity as 'meh'.

JumboWheat01

2016-02-18, 09:51 AM

Under no circumstances would I classify automatic intervention by a deity as 'meh'.

Exactly what the deity does is still up to the DM, if I remember correctly.

Segev

2016-02-18, 10:12 AM

Isn't Divine Intervention a level 10 feature for the cleric?

hymer

2016-02-18, 10:14 AM

Isn't Divine Intervention a level 10 feature for the cleric?

It is, and its chance of working is a percentage equal to cleric level. At level 20 it shifts to become 100%.

Segev

2016-02-18, 10:16 AM

It is, and its chance of working is a percentage equal to cleric level. At level 20 it shifts to become 100%.

Ah! Gotcha. I guess that feels less like a "capstone" because it's gotten to near-certainty by level 17 or 18. (85% to 90%) But that is legitimate, since "100%" is infinitely better than "99.999%," since it goes from "most likely" to "certainty."

But I do like that it scales. Rather than, say, going from 50% to 100% as you go from 19 to 20.

hymer

2016-02-18, 10:18 AM

Ah! Gotcha. I guess that feels less like a "capstone" because it's gotten to near-certainty by level 17 or 18. (85% to 90%) But that is legitimate, since "100%" is infinitely better than "99.999%," since it goes from "most likely" to "certainty."

But I do like that it scales. Rather than, say, going from 50% to 100% as you go from 19 to 20.

Nono, 10% chance at level 10, 11% at level 11, etc. And then a shift to 100% at 20.

Segev

2016-02-18, 10:21 AM

Nono, 10% chance at level 10, 11% at level 11, etc. And then a shift to 100% at 20.

oh! Okay, yeah, that's quite the jump, then, from 19% to 100%.

CantigThimble

2016-02-18, 10:21 AM

Ah! Gotcha. I guess that feels less like a "capstone" because it's gotten to near-certainty by level 17 or 18. (85% to 90%) But that is legitimate, since "100%" is infinitely better than "99.999%," since it goes from "most likely" to "certainty."

But I do like that it scales. Rather than, say, going from 50% to 100% as you go from 19 to 20.

No, no the percentage is equal to your cleric level. At level 10 you have a 10% chance, at level 19 you have a 19% chance. At level 20 it's a 100% chance. THAT is a capstone.

Edit: Shadow monk'd.

JumboWheat01

2016-02-18, 10:28 AM

Nono, 10% chance at level 10, 11% at level 11, etc. And then a shift to 100% at 20.

Isn't it "you roll a d20, and if it's less than or equal to your level, you succeed?" So at 10, that's a 50% chance to succeed, not 10%, and the chance goes up by 5% per level.

hymer

2016-02-18, 10:35 AM

Isn't it "you roll a d20, and if it's less than or equal to your level, you succeed?" So at 10, that's a 50% chance to succeed, not 10%, and the chance goes up by 5% per level.

PHB p. 59 under Divine Intervention: "Describe the assistance you seek, and roll percentile dice. If you roll a number equal to or lower than your cleric level, your deity intervenes."

Apparently, it's a common misconception. *shrug*

SharkForce

2016-02-18, 10:37 AM

Isn't it "you roll a d20, and if it's less than or equal to your level, you succeed?" So at 10, that's a 50% chance to succeed, not 10%, and the chance goes up by 5% per level.

nope.

i think the biggest reason the cleric capstone isn't that amazing comparatively is that:

1) it could have happened 10 levels earlier anyways.
2) it's guaranteed to not work more than once per week anyways.
3) it isn't guaranteed to do anything more than function as basically a wish spell. which a wizard or sorcerer can use once per day guaranteed at level 17.

JumboWheat01

2016-02-18, 10:38 AM

PHB p. 59 under Divine Intervention: "Describe the assistance you seek, and roll percentile dice. If you roll a number equal to or lower than your cleric level, your deity intervenes."

Apparently, it's a common misconception. *shrug*

Ah, d100. Why was I thinking d20? Maybe I've been tossing that die too much.

hymer

2016-02-18, 10:42 AM

Why was I thinking d20? Maybe I've been tossing that die too much.

IM-possible. No such thing as rolling too many dice! :smallbiggrin:

CantigThimble

2016-02-18, 10:48 AM

nope.

i think the biggest reason the cleric capstone isn't that amazing comparatively is that:

1) it could have happened 10 levels earlier anyways.
2) it's guaranteed to not work more than once per week anyways.
3) it isn't guaranteed to do anything more than function as basically a wish spell. which a wizard or sorcerer can use once per day guaranteed at level 17.

Divine intervention does not have a clause like wish does giving the DM permission, and encouraging him, to mess with you to the best of his ability. In fact, your god probably understands the situation and what you need better than you do AND he wants you to succeed, you are in his top 10 favorite mortals by this point after all. Plus, you can use this AND a 9th level spell in the same day.

Flashy

2016-02-18, 10:50 AM

3) it isn't guaranteed to do anything more than function as basically a wish spell. which a wizard or sorcerer can use once per day guaranteed at level 17.

Worse than wish, honestly. The only specific instruction on what you get out of divine intervention is that "Any other cleric or cleric domain spell would be appropriate," while wish has a long list of things you can do with it (many of which are individually better than entire 9th level cleric spells, though higher risk), and can replicate spells from any list.

SharkForce

2016-02-18, 11:37 AM

Divine intervention does not have a clause like wish does giving the DM permission, and encouraging him, to mess with you to the best of his ability. In fact, your god probably understands the situation and what you need better than you do AND he wants you to succeed, you are in his top 10 favorite mortals by this point after all. Plus, you can use this AND a 9th level spell in the same day.

the "duplicate other spell" function of wish also doesn't have a clause giving the DM permission to mess with you to the best of his ability either.

being able to use it in addition to a 9th level spell is nice, but let's not fool ourselves... the cleric's list of 9th level spells is not exactly awe-inspiring. clerics have some great spells, but most of them are not really all that high level.

CantigThimble

2016-02-18, 11:48 AM

the "duplicate other spell" function of wish also doesn't have a clause giving the DM permission to mess with you to the best of his ability either.

being able to use it in addition to a 9th level spell is nice, but let's not fool ourselves... the cleric's list of 9th level spells is not exactly awe-inspiring. clerics have some great spells, but most of them are not really all that high level.

Sure, assuming the DM only ever has it replicate cleric spells. The wording makes it pretty clear that replicating a single cleric spell is not the only thing your god can do, just a baseline value of the ability.

RickAllison

2016-02-18, 11:54 AM

Sure, assuming the DM only ever has it replicate cleric spells. The wording makes it pretty clear that replicating a single cleric spell is not the only thing your god can do, just a baseline value of the ability.

Indeed. One of the high-end, utilitarian uses I've seen for it was getting True Resurrection cut down to just one action rather than one hour. Gives one free "Oh, crap!" button.

Talamare

2016-02-18, 01:42 PM

CantigThimble

2016-02-18, 01:50 PM

Cleric capstone is on the weakside
It's 100% chance to cast a Cleric spell instantly once per week
I don't know about your table, but we (and I assume most) tables play in the "a session is a day", and we have a session every real life week
So, once every real life 49 days you get a free Cleric spell controlled by the DM

Correction, you get an effect determined by the dm (to your specifications) whose value is equal to or greater than any cleric spell. (and If I were running it any spell of lower than 9th level would be cast with a 9th level slot since there's no reason why it wouldn't be) Quite likely with the added benefits of not needing material components, long casting times, concentration or even being within range. (It's your god casting the spell, why would it matter where you are?)

Talamare

2016-02-18, 01:58 PM

Correction, you get an effect determined by the dm (to your specifications) whose value is equal to or greater than any cleric spell. (and If I were running it any spell of lower than 9th level would be cast with a 9th level slot since there's no reason why it wouldn't be) Quite likely with the added benefits of not needing material components, long casting times, concentration or even being within range. (It's your god casting the spell, why would it matter where you are?)

Of course its a DM decides thing, so he can do w/e he wants. However it does mention that the intervention is a Cleric spell.
Tho yea yea, instant free infinite range spell once every 2 months!

That sauce is weak my friend, not to mention loses the interesting factor that its God intervening on a whim because you're awesome and instead becomes "God, my get out of jail card has 7 stamps, time to bail me out again!"

What they should have just done is say the chance of it the God intervening at lv10 would be twice your Cleric level then actually give Clerics an awesome lv20 ability that makes the CLERIC feel like a God instead, Especially since by lv20 PCs are probably out killing Gods, Devils, and other Celestial/Infernal beings

Edit - I just noticed this was the Druid thread, Yea I'm not going to keep talking about Cleric's anymore

Segev

2016-02-18, 05:14 PM

Double-checking my logic here: Wild Shape specifically prevents you from casting spells (before Druid 18, anyway). This is a blanket effect. Even using something like the Sorcerer's metamagic power to cast a spell without components would not change this, right? Even Warlock invocations which let them "cast a spell without using a spell slot" would be foiled, because they still are "casting a spell."

Is this accurate? The Wild Shaped druid is unable to use any of these abilities, correct?

Saggo

2016-02-18, 05:27 PM

Segev

2016-02-18, 05:30 PM

Casting a spell without components or spell slots is still casting a spell, so unfortunately no.

That's what I thought, but wanted to double-check myself. So it really does take Druid 18 to be able to use ANY spells (other than concentrating on ongoing ones) while in Wild Shapes. Oof. Still, makes level 18 a nice one for them.

RulesJD

2016-02-18, 06:03 PM

That's what I thought, but wanted to double-check myself. So it really does take Druid 18 to be able to use ANY spells (other than concentrating on ongoing ones) while in Wild Shapes. Oof. Still, makes level 18 a nice one for them.

Off the top of my head, there are "ways" around it. A level 11 Wizard/Druid x could cast "Contingency" before Wildshaping and have the trigger happen while Wildshaped. Colossal waste of resources, but technically possibly before level 18. Certain items would likely work as well like a Ring of Spell Storing or whatever it's called.

JumboWheat01

2016-02-18, 11:46 PM

Off the top of my head, there are "ways" around it. A level 11 Wizard/Druid x could cast "Contingency" before Wildshaping and have the trigger happen while Wildshaped. Colossal waste of resources, but technically possibly before level 18. Certain items would likely work as well like a Ring of Spell Storing or whatever it's called.

A ring of spell storing wouldn't work unless the form was physically capable of wearing and using the ring. Most animal forms are not.

Contingency though, that's a clever idea. Never would of thought of it, especially since I rarely think of multiclass combination.

SharkForce

2016-02-19, 12:10 AM

on the other hand, *activating* a spell is not the same action as casting one. you could, for example, cast a sunbeam spell, wild shape, and then in subsequent rounds use the spell to fire sunbeams.

Talamare

2016-02-19, 12:22 AM

A ring of spell storing wouldn't work unless the form was physically capable of wearing and using the ring. Most animal forms are not.

Contingency though, that's a clever idea. Never would of thought of it, especially since I rarely think of multiclass combination.

Put the ring on a collar?

JumboWheat01

2016-02-19, 12:26 AM

Put the ring on a collar?

You'd have to be wearing the collar before you change, unless you want someone standing by to put it on you ever time you shift. And if you happen to shift into something with a different neck size than what the collar can fit, you'd choke yourself, so it would be forced to merge in your body (or drop,) thus rendering it useless..

Plus you're not actually WEARING the ring, just dangling it on something you actually are.

RickAllison

2016-02-19, 12:46 AM

on the other hand, *activating* a spell is not the same action as casting one. you could, for example, cast a sunbeam spell, wild shape, and then in subsequent rounds use the spell to fire sunbeams.

Actually, that's explicitly called out in the description of Wildshape. It's also why Druids so many spells like that (Flaming Sphere, Call Lightning, Sunbeam, etc.). It's effectively a specialty class of spells specifically for their forms. I do like the image of the bear belching sun blasts, however.

Vogonjeltz

2016-02-19, 08:24 AM

Exactly what the deity does is still up to the DM, if I remember correctly.

The form of the aid is malleable, yes, but it must fulfill the request. If the Cleric asks their deity for something outside the bounds of any Cleric spell or domain power, the deity must still deliver the goods so to speak. That it's such an obscenely open-ended ability is pretty much why it's very unlikely to fire off below 20th level, and even then it's still once a week.

Worse than wish, honestly. The only specific instruction on what you get out of divine intervention is that "Any other cleric or cleric domain spell would be appropriate," while wish has a long list of things you can do with it (many of which are individually better than entire 9th level cleric spells, though higher risk), and can replicate spells from any list.

Balderdash I say, using Wish for anything except casting an 8th level spell or below cripples the caster at a minimum, and potentially burns the ability out permanently.

That line about the use of a cleric spell or domain power is to guide the DM such that the intervention is flavored appropriately, in point of fact there are zero limitations on what the request for aid can consist of. If the Cleric requested that their deity smite an entire Orc encampment from the mortal realm, it must happen. The how simply doesn't matter. The real limitation is that this is a once a week use of unlimited cosmic power.

I'd hazard that this ability is probably the single most powerful one in the game. Presumably if the Cleric requested that a specific creature be removed from existence then it would simply happen. (Once a week, of course).

JackPhoenix

2016-02-19, 08:53 AM

Of course its a DM decides thing, so he can do w/e he wants. However it does mention that the intervention is a Cleric spell.
Tho yea yea, instant free infinite range spell once every 2 months!

That sauce is weak my friend, not to mention loses the interesting factor that its God intervening on a whim because you're awesome and instead becomes "God, my get out of jail card has 7 stamps, time to bail me out again!"

What they should have just done is say the chance of it the God intervening at lv10 would be twice your Cleric level then actually give Clerics an awesome lv20 ability that makes the CLERIC feel like a God instead, Especially since by lv20 PCs are probably out killing Gods, Devils, and other Celestial/Infernal beings

Edit - I just noticed this was the Druid thread, Yea I'm not going to keep talking about Cleric's anymore

I don't want to steer this thread off-topic either, but I think this deserves response: IMO, the intervention is a cleric spell if you're just bothering your deity with some minor thing: "Hey, boss, our fighter got eaten by some dragon again, can you do something about that?" It's the least possible effort on the deity's side. If it was something else? "Oh mighty Pelor, we can't stop the Supertarrasque (it's like the Tarrasque, only actually a threat to high level characters) from destroying not-Vatican, please help us!"...he may listen to his favored servant and take care of the problem personally, seeing the best mortals in his service are no match for the beast. Think 10 Egyptian plagues (or whatever is it called in english) or parting the Red sea, not something the cleric can do on his own.

SharkForce

2016-02-19, 10:39 AM

That line about the use of a cleric spell or domain power is to guide the DM such that the intervention is flavored appropriately, in point of fact there are zero limitations on what the request for aid can consist of. If the Cleric requested that their deity smite an entire Orc encampment from the mortal realm, it must happen. The how simply doesn't matter. The real limitation is that this is a once a week use of unlimited cosmic power.

I'd hazard that this ability is probably the single most powerful one in the game. Presumably if the Cleric requested that a specific creature be removed from existence then it would simply happen. (Once a week, of course).

the deity commands the cleric, not the other way round.

the cleric doesn't get to tell the deity what to do and the deity must do exactly that with no way around it. the cleric gets to call on their god and ask for help, and the god will respond with what the god considers appropriate. if the cleric asks for the god to smite an orc camp, the god will likely respond by smiting the orc camp in some form, but that doesn't mean the god is going to smite the entire orc camp in the way the cleric would like just because the cleric used the word "entire". the god might send something like a storm of vengeance, or drop some sort of unpleasant disease, or poison their water supply, or cause all their food to rot, but it will be what the god decides rather than what the cleric decides, and the god isn't going to feel bound to do something beyond what the god considers necessary just because the cleric phrased the request differently.

Flashy

2016-02-19, 01:19 PM

I'd hazard that this ability is probably the single most powerful one in the game. Presumably if the Cleric requested that a specific creature be removed from existence then it would simply happen. (Once a week, of course).

Honestly I largely agree with you. I was trying to point out that in a strict interpretation it's not as good as wish, simply because the DM doesn't have to let you do anything other than what's listed in the ability.

It's a great class feature, but it's hard to rate outside the context of any specific game.

RickAllison

2016-02-19, 06:29 PM

Honestly I largely agree with you. I was trying to point out that in a strict interpretation it's not as good as wish, simply because the DM doesn't have to let you do anything other than what's listed in the ability.

It's a great class feature, but it's hard to rate outside the context of any specific game.

Indeed. It ranges from being as good as a free cleric spell slot once a week to an ability capable of leveling the playing field with Tiamat, all depending on the DM.

Lumiere

2016-02-25, 04:24 PM