How would you roleplay this set of stats correctly?

[Zhentarim]

stats

str 16
dex 16
con 16
int 9
wis 16
cha 5

I am particularly concerned with the high wis but low int and cha. It works mechanically, but it feels counterintuitive.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

You're not the brightest bulb in the box, but you know when to speak and when to listen. You're good at the latter, kinda horrible at the former.

[LTwerewolf]

The int isn't that low. You're not a complete dullard, but you're not winning science fairs either. The charisma means you're not particularly likable or articulate. You've not got a lot of force of personality, so it's hard to get others to believe in what you believe in. When they stop to finally listen though, you are very, deep, profound, perceptive and a capable warrior.

[Zhentarim]

You're not the brightest bulb in the box, but you know when to speak and when to listen. You're good at the latter, kinda horrible at the former.

That helps. The following character is how I thought it would play out, but I wasn't sure. I think now I accidentally wrote my character as if all 3 of her mental stats were in the dumps.

Helga Forgefire was a dwarven native of Heldren who was always something of a live wire. She resented the traditional expectations of her elders and wanted to actually do something exciting in life. One day, an adventurer who revered Calistria passed through town and crossed paths with Helga. At first, the traveler avoided Helga as she believes bathing is "too conventional" and Helga at times can be uncomfortable to converse with. Learning of her desire to break free from tradition, the traveler shared the tenets of the Savored Sting and Helga instantly fell in love with them. Much to the dismay of her elders, Helga decided she would follow the first part of the Calistrian's advice and open Heldren's first brothel. She built a tacky shed with a dirt floor and no furniture and shouted with a disturbingly masculine voice "I'M OPEN! COME SLEEP WITH ME!" Sadly, she had few repeat customers as she was blunt, smelly, and pushy. Besides these endearing qualities Helga also has a coarse voice only a mother could love. Finally, despite understanding how she comes across, her tendency to not care about that drove off most of her business. One day, a young male witch came in and partook of Helga's services, only to cast a sleeping spell on her and slip out without paying. This made Helga so angry she put up a sign on her defunct brothel which read "No witches or wizards will touch my lips. They just ain't natural!" The rage continued to eat at her, and she decided after a month she would change careers and be a witch hunting inquisitor of Calistria, eliminating or at least aggravating the piss out of all people who dared cross her as well as arcane casters. Before she could train well, however, the freeze came, and knowing nobody wanted to shack with her in the cold, shouted "DAMN WITCHES!" and went on the war path

[IronwolfXVI]

A big part of RP is alignment. My DM prefers that you have at least one high mental state for Lawful Evil. Preferably Charisma or Intelligence in my opinion.

[graeylin]

Think backwoodsman, with either a personality problem, or perhaps some mutilating scar.

Smart enough about weather, woods, nature, making a fire, survival, hunting/trapping/farming/forestry. knows when it's going to snow, when the mother bear will charge, and when she won't. Knows the berries to eat, and which make headaches go away. Can't explain why the bark of this tree makes a wound heal, but knows it does.

But, perhaps, can't explain any of that very well. Maybe they use foul language. Has horrible personal hygiene. Rheumy eye. Perhaps they are xenophobic, or racist. Maybe they smoke, or spit tobacco constantly. Perhaps they are just nasty, gruff, and uncaring. Could be, they feel everyone that isn't as worldly wise as them is stupid, and lets them know it. Constantly. Or, is an incessant whiner.

There's lots of reasons a person can be uncharismatic.

[LTwerewolf]

A big part of RP is alignment. My DM prefers that you have at least one high mental state for Lawful Evil. Preferably Charisma or Intelligence in my opinion.

Lemure: int -, wis 11, cha 5. Your basic devil. A high stat is absolutely not required for LE. LE needs leaders and followers, else the system falls apart. If you don't like a mindless creature as an example: bearded devil at int 6, wis 10, cha 10, bone devils at 14 in each, chain devils at 6/10/12, etc, etc.

[IronwolfXVI]

Lemure: int -, wis 11, cha 5. Your basic devil. A high stat is absolutely not required for LE. LE needs leaders and followers, else the system falls apart. If you don't like a mindless creature as an example: bearded devil at int 6, wis 10, cha 10, bone devils at 14 in each, chain devils at 6/10/12, etc, etc.

I never said requires, hahaha just that my DM prefers player characters have one high mental stat. He believes it helps with manipulation, but you're right, a Grunt Hobgoblin is just as LE as a Hobgoblin General.

[Crake]

as others have said, the int isn't really low enough to be much of an impact on your character, as long as you aren't playing it more along the lines of 14+ int by coming up with brilliant strategies or complex plans, you should probably be within acceptable margins.

The 5 cha on the other hand is much harder to play around. Cha represents your sense of self, your personal identity so to speak. To a degree it represents your level of self esteem, but also your likability and your force of personality, how well you can influence people and how easily you yourself can be influenced through wordplay (but not through magic or fear, that's the realm of wisdom and will saves). These things need not all be lowered universally as cha is lowered, but as it is reduced, on average more and more of those traits will arise. As such, a 5 cha person can be anywhere from someone who is easily influenced or brushed aside in conversation, has very little self worth, puts others before themselves, and is generally an all-around doormat, to someone who is incredibly crass, gruff, abrasive and unlikable, making his words quickly thrown aside, disregarded due to his poor delivery method.

Just remember that cha is a mental ability score. Despite what the player handbook says, it should never be associated with looks, those are entirely up to the player.

[Genth]

You could also IMO see it as the "Drill Sergeant Nasty" - They know how to make soldiers into killing machines, and how to give them the skills to stay alive. They'll give the right advice, even if they force it down your throat. But they're totally horrible people to be around, ignorant of everything other than fighting.

[inuyasha]

I honestly think that this could make a very fun monk character. You're a hermit who's very dedicated to his craft, so you're a master at combat (good physical stats) and very in tune with things of a spiritual nature (good wisdom), but because of your secluded nature you're a tad primitive (1 point lower than average intelligence), and you're very gruff and antisocial (5 charisma!)

[zergling.exe]

Just remember that cha is a mental ability score. Despite what the player handbook says, it should never be associated with looks, those are entirely up to the player.

Unfortunately it is RAW that Charisma minorly affects your appearance.

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness,
personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

Though how it does could be anywhere from a nasty scar to "painfully normal".

[Red Fel]

You could also IMO see it as the "Drill Sergeant Nasty" - They know how to make soldiers into killing machines, and how to give them the skills to stay alive. They'll give the right advice, even if they force it down your throat. But they're totally horrible people to be around, ignorant of everything other than fighting.

Eh... Not exactly. The problem is that nobody will listen to or obey a low-Cha drill sergeant. People will laugh him off, disregard what he has to say, generally ignore him. He doesn't really register on their radar. That's the point of low Cha.

Low Charisma doesn't mean you're unpleasant. It means you're uninteresting. You can be high-Cha and be utterly horrible. But you will scare people. People will be disturbed and frightened by you. That's what high Charisma can do. Low Cha doesn't mean you'll upset them, creep them out, or intimidate them. It means you won't make an impression.

Also:


Lemure: int -, wis 11, cha 5. Your basic devil. A high stat is absolutely not required for LE. LE needs leaders and followers, else the system falls apart. If you don't like a mindless creature as an example: bearded devil at int 6, wis 10, cha 10, bone devils at 14 in each, chain devils at 6/10/12, etc, etc.

I never said requires, hahaha just that my DM prefers player characters have one high mental stat. He believes it helps with manipulation, but you're right, a Grunt Hobgoblin is just as LE as a Hobgoblin General.

LE: You're doing it right.

[Zhentarim]

Eh... Not exactly. The problem is that nobody will listen to or obey a low-Cha drill sergeant. People will laugh him off, disregard what he has to say, generally ignore him. He doesn't really register on their radar. That's the point of low Cha.

Low Charisma doesn't mean you're unpleasant. It means you're uninteresting. You can be high-Cha and be utterly horrible. But you will scare people. People will be disturbed and frightened by you. That's what high Charisma can do. Low Cha doesn't mean you'll upset them, creep them out, or intimidate them. It means you won't make an impression.

Also:




LE: You're doing it right.

"Ummm, hi mr. villain, I gotta slay you now, but, um...I'm doing this wrong..."

Does totally badass fight scene...

"Uhhh...sorry...I kinda had to..."

[Seto]

Eh... Not exactly. The problem is that nobody will listen to or obey a low-Cha drill sergeant. People will laugh him off, disregard what he has to say, generally ignore him. He doesn't really register on their radar. That's the point of low Cha.

Low Charisma doesn't mean you're unpleasant. It means you're uninteresting. You can be high-Cha and be utterly horrible. But you will scare people. People will be disturbed and frightened by you. That's what high Charisma can do. Low Cha doesn't mean you'll upset them, creep them out, or intimidate them.

That is also the way I generally play it. However, the fluff in some races such as Tieflings (IIRC) explains their CHA penalty by the fact that their non-quite human aspect is offputting and disturbing. Other characters who may have a strong personality but who are rude, sociopathic or inarticulate, or generally rub others the wrong way, are described as having a low CHA.

So I'd say that CHA is the ability to directly influence the world (be it Sorcerer magic or sweet-talking people) by the voluntary application of your will/force of personality. If you frighten or disturb others because you're trying to, you have charisma. But when the time comes to be sweet and pleasant, you'll downplay your scariness and make them forget how dangerous you are.
If, however, you're trying to get people to like you and end up scaring them away, or if you want to intimidate them but they laugh you off, you lack CHA. There may be any number of reasons for that : social awkwardness, rudeness, lack of personality, lack of presence, disturbing appearance, even just having an unpleasant or very little voice...

[Genth]

Eh... Not exactly. The problem is that nobody will listen to or obey a low-Cha drill sergeant. People will laugh him off, disregard what he has to say, generally ignore him. He doesn't really register on their radar. That's the point of low Cha.

Low Charisma doesn't mean you're unpleasant. It means you're uninteresting. You can be high-Cha and be utterly horrible. But you will scare people. People will be disturbed and frightened by you. That's what high Charisma can do. Low Cha doesn't mean you'll upset them, creep them out, or intimidate them. It means you won't make an impression.

Yes, because people listen to Drill Sergeants thanks to their winning personality.

Ever notice that in fiction, such Drill Sergeant types almost NEVER have friends? Are almost always hated by the brass and by the recruits both? The only reason they are listened to by recruits is because if they don't, they get punished. Low Charisma doesn't stop someone making an impression if they punch you in the face and call you a maggot. The 'Drill Sergeant' IS uninteresting, desperately, horrifically uninteresting. They get their way into a position of power and then use that position to MAKE, to *force* people to respect them.

*edit* Imagine your stereotypical Drill Sergeant Nasty getting cut in front of in line at a supermarket. He starts screaming at the person as he does with the recruits. What happens? People take a youtube video of it and everyone finds it hilarious, and *nobody* gives him any respect because of it.

[martixy]

Eh... Not exactly. The problem is that nobody will listen to or obey a low-Cha drill sergeant. People will laugh him off, disregard what he has to say, generally ignore him. He doesn't really register on their radar. That's the point of low Cha.

Low Charisma doesn't mean you're unpleasant. It means you're uninteresting. You can be high-Cha and be utterly horrible. But you will scare people. People will be disturbed and frightened by you. That's what high Charisma can do. Low Cha doesn't mean you'll upset them, creep them out, or intimidate them. It means you won't make an impression.


Well.... not uninteresting, that word is entirely too broad to apply to any one character trait.
Just unable to relate to your fellow sentient beings. Cha basically measures empathy, your ability to get into other people's heads, put yourself in their shoes.
A low-Cha drill sergeant might be gruff, inconsistent, uncaring, behave in a psychopathic, rigid or robotic manner. In a way that nobody would want to hold a conversation with him for very long. Maybe use lots of grunts, talk down to people, snap at people for no apparent reason, etc... His recruits will not disregard what he says, but they will probably laugh at him behind his back or hate his guts, or both.

On the opposite end, a high-Cha drill sergeant might be strict but, reasonable, instead of yelling, he might not even say a word, but make you obey him with a single glare, make you feel like you deserve whatever you've got coming or he might be manipulative and duplicitous, toying with his recruits in a manner that suits him.

[Crake]

Unfortunately it is RAW that Charisma minorly affects your appearance.


Though how it does could be anywhere from a nasty scar to "painfully normal".

The issue I have with that is that it is very easily possible for someone to be very attractive, but still have incredibly low cha and be a pushover, due to incredibly low self-esteem. The PHB's attempt to tie attractiveness to charisma is a terrible shoehorn from previous editions.

[denthor]

With those stats I would look at a fighter that's been hit in the head one too many Times

You have the ability with 16 wisdom to plan so long term plans are your thing. However if things don't go to plan you become much less effective.

With the low charisma you may be antisocial in other words you stay of yourself in the bars you're not the one That walks up and takes care of the women unless of course you're hitting something with a big stick.

You could be a thief where you burned by acid or something. Bonus points if somebody knows where that came from

An adventuring cleric because you can't stand on the pulpit. Your boring when you speak but you can write the sermon just can't deliver in a speech

[Zhentarim]

With those stats I would look at a fighter that's been hit in the head one too many Times

You have the ability with 16 wisdom to plan so long term plans are your thing. However if things don't go to plan you become much less effective.

With the low charisma you may be antisocial in other words you stay of yourself in the bars you're not the one That walks up and takes care of the women unless of course you're hitting something with a big stick.

You could be a thief where you burned by acid or something. Bonus points if somebody knows where that came from

An adventuring cleric because you can't stand on the pulpit. Your boring when you speak but you can write the sermon just can't deliver in a speech

Interestingly enough, I was going for a witch hunter investigator of Calistria. Either her or Cayden Caliean.

[LTwerewolf]

That is also the way I generally play it. However, the fluff in some races such as Tieflings (IIRC) explains their CHA penalty by the fact that their non-quite human aspect is offputting and disturbing. Other characters who may have a strong personality but who are rude, sociopathic or inarticulate, or generally rub others the wrong way, are described as having a low CHA.

Tieflings are an example of inconsistency. Fiends are almost universally known for having rather high charisma, with half fiends joining in on the fun. Tieflings though somehow don't get that benefit even though they're descended from the same blood simply because they're a little different. It makes no sense to allow a demon to have a high charisma and have a tiefling with a penalty and claim it has something to do with being offputting.

[zergling.exe]

The issue I have with that is that it is very easily possible for someone to be very attractive, but still have incredibly low cha and be a pushover, due to incredibly low self-esteem. The PHB's attempt to tie attractiveness to charisma is a terrible shoehorn from previous editions.

Physical attractiveness is just one part of Charisma. If you want the character to have low Charisma but be very attractive, you should be able to do that. Just because it is part of the stat doesn't mean you have to follow that strictly, but you can loosely reference it.

Maybe the person just would be attractive, if they knew how to show it off. I know there is something that shows pictures of girls that are relatively normal looking in one picture, and right next to it is a picture of them looking stunningly beautiful with little to no make-up applied. It could be something like that.


Tieflings are an example of inconsistency. Fiends are almost universally known for having rather high charisma, with half fiends joining in on the fun. Tieflings though somehow don't get that benefit even though they're descended from the same blood simply because they're a little different. It makes no sense to allow a demon to have a high charisma and have a tiefling with a penalty and claim it has something to do with being offputting.

The Uncanny Valley: they are just similar enough that the effect looks downright disturbing.

[Seto]

Well.... not uninteresting, that word is entirely too broad to apply to any one character trait.
Just unable to relate to your fellow sentient beings. Cha basically measures empathy, your ability to get into other people's heads, put yourself in their shoes.

Nope, that's Wisdom (sense motive). Sure, telling people what they want to hear is a good way to get them to like you, but it's certainly not what CHA measures. It's simply one of the ways that high CHA may manifest if the character ALSO has high WIS.
There are very charismatic people who couldn't care less about what you feel, and above all there are a lot of very perceptive, empathic people whom everyone overlooks.

[martixy]

Nope, that's Wisdom (sense motive). Sure, telling people what they want to hear is a good way to get them to like you, but it's certainly not what CHA measures. It's simply one of the ways that high CHA may manifest if the character ALSO has high WIS.
There are very charismatic people who couldn't care less about what you feel, and above all there are a lot of very perceptive, empathic people whom everyone overlooks.

You misunderstand empathy as being inherently benevolent. You are confusing the popular consciousness meaning of the word with its actual meaning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy).
It is merely the ability to accurately project themselves onto other people.
It does not have an inherent moral inclination. Nor does it have an inherent behavioural implications.
You can still be caring without being empathetic and you can be a charismatic, but manipulative deck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkmeoYKYctw).

OTOH, Wisdom measures general awareness of the outside world. An intuitive understanding of how events unfold.

Sense motive does have some overlap, but that's unavoidable. You can't map the entirety of human experience perfectly onto a simplistic(relative to the breadth of real life) game system like that.

[icefractal]

For the physical stats, nothing unusual, they're just a very fit person overall.
For the mental stats, I'd say that -
* With high Wisdom, they have the right idea more often than not.
* With slightly low Intelligence, they come across this idea intuitively more-so than fully understanding it.
* With significantly low Charisma, they're very bad at articulating why it's a good idea.

So for example, the PCs were chasing a criminal, they come around a corner to a dead-end alley, and he's gone. This character notices that 'something isn't right' about the bricks in one corner. He goes over and hits them, and they crumble - it's just plaster hiding a secret entrance. The others ask how he knew, but all he can explain is "the bricks were ... bad". For someone that didn't know him well, they'd just assume he got angry and punched the wall, stumbling onto the secret entrance by dumb luck. Only people who've been around him for a while would realize that he's more perceptive than he looks.

[Seto]

You misunderstand empathy as being inherently benevolent. You are confusing the popular consciousness meaning of the word with its actual meaning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy).
It is merely the ability to accurately project themselves onto other people.
It does not have an inherent moral inclination. Nor does it have an inherent behavioural implications.
You can still be caring without being empathetic and you can be a charismatic, but manipulative deck (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkmeoYKYctw).

OTOH, Wisdom measures general awareness of the outside world. An intuitive understanding of how events unfold.

Sense motive does have some overlap, but that's unavoidable. You can't map the entirety of human experience perfectly onto a simplistic(relative to the breadth of real life) game system like that.

Don't worry, I understand the proper meaning of the word empathy. I'm just claiming that, in my opinion, it has nothing to do with CHA and is governed by WIS.
I like to explain the mental stats this way : WIS is about things passing from the world into your mind, INT is about things that are/happen inside your mind, CHA is about things passing from your mind into the world.

Being able to understand people from within their own paradigm, and put oneself in their place, is about being perceptive and aware, it seems to me. I consider it entirely within the purview of Sense Motive, rather than overlapping with it. And that's without moral connotations.
A lot of charismatic people (not all of them of course) are bad at understanding what's going on in others' minds, and they've never needed to do that, because they're used to bringing others to THEIR way of thinking.

[martixy]

Don't worry, I understand the proper meaning of the word empathy. I'm just claiming that, in my opinion, it has nothing to do with CHA and is governed by WIS.
I like to explain the mental stats this way : WIS is about things passing from the world into your mind, INT is about things that are/happen inside your mind, CHA is about things passing from your mind into the world.

Being able to understand people from within their own paradigm, and put oneself in their place, is about being perceptive and aware, it seems to me. I consider it entirely within the purview of Sense Motive, rather than overlapping with it. And that's without moral connotations.
A lot of charismatic people (not all of them of course) are bad at understanding what's going on in others' minds, and they've never needed to do that, because they're used to bringing others to THEIR way of thinking.

Ah... I see your point.

Well then let's agree that we each view what these stats represent differently.

FWIW, for me INT is knowledge and the ability to reason. Wis is the ability to understand the world in an intuitive manner and Cha is, as noted empathy, which manifests outwardly ability to effectively deal with people. And/or a strong sense of self.
An wise person might come up with a cunning plan, but the intelligent person will do his research and eventually arrive at the same conclusion after studiously taking into account all the hard data.
A charismatic person might favour a people solution to a problem, while a wise, but uncharismatc person might take a different approach, relying on more external means.

I suspect the truth is somewhere inbetween, but with these stats touching on so many aspects simultaneously, it's not a black and white division of responsibilities.

That's why I said there is overlap.

There's nothing to say that an intelligent person can't deduce motives through cold, hard reason(the character of Sherlock Holmes is based on that idea - he probably took the Keen Intellect feat :smalltongue: )

[Zhentarim]

For the physical stats, nothing unusual, they're just a very fit person overall.
For the mental stats, I'd say that -
* With high Wisdom, they have the right idea more often than not.
* With slightly low Intelligence, they come across this idea intuitively more-so than fully understanding it.
* With significantly low Charisma, they're very bad at articulating why it's a good idea.

So for example, the PCs were chasing a criminal, they come around a corner to a dead-end alley, and he's gone. This character notices that 'something isn't right' about the bricks in one corner. He goes over and hits them, and they crumble - it's just plaster hiding a secret entrance. The others ask how he knew, but all he can explain is "the bricks were ... bad". For someone that didn't know him well, they'd just assume he got angry and punched the wall, stumbling onto the secret entrance by dumb luck. Only people who've been around him for a while would realize that he's more perceptive than he looks.

I'll keep that in mind.

[Bobby Baratheon]

I think you could have your character be a source of simple-minded wisdom (to reflect the slightly low intelligence and high wisdom) and, as has been noted, there are a number of different ways you can play a low Charisma. My 2 cents would be to have a country bumpkin type. Not truly stupid by any measure, but lacking in etiquette and perhaps simply unaware of social norms. A rough example could be Mater from Cars; he's more than a little weird and doesn't really know how to adapt his behavior to effectively interact with others (see Cars 2) and yet he possesses a simple sort of wisdom that's not readily apparent.

You could even incorporate aspects of the archetypical Fool character, who is (at least intially) seen as offputting by many. The Fool might not be the brightest bulb in the box, and he might not be particularly charismatic or forceful, but he does have the invaluable asset of perception. He sees the world differently, and thus has special insight into the workings of the world around him while not necessarily understanding them.

[Randomthom]

Below average Int, abysmal Cha, high Wis... you're kinda like the slack-jawed yokel spewing out stupid old wives' tales that turn out to be true and insightful. Maybe have a bunch of stock phrases that, while simple in concept are somewhat perceptive and true. Even better if they are slightly insulting to someone.

"Rule 1: Don't be a d*ck"

[LTwerewolf]

I feel like everyone here talking about how stupid the character is doesn't realize that 9 isn't that different from 10. It's like they think the int was the 5 stat.

[Bobby Baratheon]

He's not stupid. He's not all that bright, but he's hardly the village idiot. However, the low charisma might make him come off as dumber than he is, depending on how you play it. People tend to assume that those who don't adhere to social norms through ignorance of them are stupid; that's not the "one true way" to play this character but it's a valid interpretation.

[Crake]

Physical attractiveness is just one part of Charisma. If you want the character to have low Charisma but be very attractive, you should be able to do that. Just because it is part of the stat doesn't mean you have to follow that strictly, but you can loosely reference it.

Maybe the person just would be attractive, if they knew how to show it off. I know there is something that shows pictures of girls that are relatively normal looking in one picture, and right next to it is a picture of them looking stunningly beautiful with little to no make-up applied. It could be something like that.

If you can have a low cha character who is very attractive, but you can't have a very persuasive character who happens to be ugly (because a very persuasive character would actually require a positive cha modifier to make sense), then it doesn't make sense. Barring horrible disfigurement, most people look past beauty when being convinced of something, because they normally think "what will happen to me if I do this"

Basically if you can explain away a high attribute "tied" to cha while having low cha, it's not really tied to cha at all, is it?

[zergling.exe]

If you can have a low cha character who is very attractive, but you can't have a very persuasive character who happens to be ugly (because a very persuasive character would actually require a positive cha modifier to make sense), then it doesn't make sense. Barring horrible disfigurement, most people look past beauty when being convinced of something, because they normally think "what will happen to me if I do this"

Basically if you can explain away a high attribute "tied" to cha while having low cha, it's not really tied to cha at all, is it?

I don't see how you are going from "can have low Cha and be pretty" to "has high Cha must be pretty". That cuts both ways. You can have high Cha but be ugly as well, perhaps that ugly scar makes you more attractive. Even though it is, in fact, ugly.

[Seto]

I don't see how you are going from "can have low Cha and be pretty" to "has high Cha must be pretty". That cuts both ways. You can have high Cha but be ugly as well, perhaps that ugly scar makes you more attractive. Even though it is, in fact, ugly.

But that's not what Crake said. Crake said, "if you can be pretty and have low CHA, and ugly and have high CHA, then CHA and physical attractiveness are unrelated". You're only emphasizing that point. (Except the last couple of sentences about the ugly scar that makes you attractive, I didn't follow you there.)

[zergling.exe]

But that's not what Crake said. Crake said, "if you can be pretty and have low CHA, and ugly and have high CHA, then CHA and physical attractiveness are unrelated". You're only emphasizing that point. (Except the last couple of sentences about the ugly scar that makes you attractive, I didn't follow you there.)

There is more than one way for "attractiveness" to be applied to this. Have you ever seen something so horrible you can't look away? THAT is what I am referring to. It's something that you HAVE to pay attention to, you are ATTRACTED to that horrible, nasty scar that just consumes your attention, causing you to pay attention to the one speaking.

Edit: Basically, there are ways to make it make sense instead of just throwing it away.