Spell Point variant and Ki points

[Arkhios]

Let's get creative for a bit.

If someone were to run a campaign where all spellcasters used spell points instead of the standard spell slots. Then, a Monk of the Four Elements multi-classes into a spellcasting class, and would eventually have both the ki-point and the spell-point pools.

Would you allow the Four Elements Monk to fuel his standard spells with ki points and his ki spells (and other ki powers) with spell points?

Essentially Four Elements Monk is "casting spells" with his Ki, so personally I might actually allow it.

What do you think?

[PoeticDwarf]

I wouldn't. With slots you also can''t cast these spells. Wouldn't be OP but just weird. Interesting idea but I would not allow it.

[Talamare]

So every spell caster is basically a Sorcerer

Would I allow a Monk add his Ki to his Sorcerer levels?
No

[AstralFire]

Yes, I would.

[Arelai]

I've thought about the monk scenario before-but his Ki should be like the pact magic feature. Since it comes back after a short rest. if you multiclass into warlock from a spell caster you can use warlock slots to cast wizard spells-so you should be able to cast monk elemental stuff with slots.

Also-the math is already there. Each elemental monk ability costs ki equal to the spells level +1.

[MaxWilson]

I would not. It just doesn't seem right, flavor-wise.

[RickAllison]

Though IIRC ki is explicitly magical, it is a different aspect of magic than that used for spellcasting. Fluff-wise, it seems most similar to Metamagic, as a powerful magical resource that is separate to, but intersects with, more standard magic. Sorcery points just happen to more readily interact with standard magic than the life-force equivalent seen with ki.

[Theodoxus]

I would not. It just doesn't seem right, flavor-wise.

Neither does Ki being magical, rather than psionic in nature, but that's the flavor...

I would have to do more research, and look at the point costs of Ki powers and what they're used for... though on face value, I agree with Arelai - a long rest mechanic doesn't mesh well with a short rest one... Although, given the larger spell point than ki point pool - I could be convinced to allow all points to replenish on a long rest. Though then, elemental monks just become another caster type...

Seems less than ideal all around - and super mad outside of cleric/druid which have their own reasons for not meshing well with monk.

[Arelai]

You can use pact magic to cast long rest spells though-so I actually think it's fine to mix them. Since like I said-the spells the elemental monk gets cost ki=spell level+1. So, if you're a 10/10 monk-wizard, you still only get 5 level 1 casts or 2 level 4 casts after a short rest. Hardly game breaking.

Being a full caster is MUCH more breaking than recovering a few spell slots on a short rest.

[Quintessence]

Based solely on how garbage that "four element monk" archetype is, I would allow it.

[Drackolus]

I'd hesitate. Spell points tend to be much bigger pools than 1 per level. May not be the end of the world though, especially since monk+spellcaster has little going for them anyway. Consider that a land druid or wizard gets roughly one spell point per level on short rests as well, if you were to use their feature to give nothing but 1st level slots (I would actually recommend just rewording those to "one spell point per class level" for simplicity).

[Arkhios]

Since Monk of the Four Elements has similar spell level progression as Paladins and Rangers have, I guess it wouldn't be too much to limit them as such; at 20th level such a monk would be able to cast:
1st-level Ki spells: up to 4/long rest (2 points each)
2nd-level Ki spells: up to 3/long rest (3 points each)
3rd-level Ki spells: up to 3/long rest (4 points each)
4th-level Ki spells: up to 3/long rest (5 points each)
5th-level Ki spells: up to 2/long rest (6 points each)
Although, with a quick calculation, within one rest period a 20th level monk could cast one of each spell level before he would run out of ki points.

[Cybren]

Neither does Ki being magical, rather than psionic in nature, but that's the flavor...

Ki isn't psi- they have very different origins, implications, and flavor. Honestly "psionics" is too modern for my tastes to be in d&d at all, but I understand why people like it.

[Arkhios]

Ki isn't psi- they have very different origins, implications, and flavor.

As it's been pointed out numerous times before, Ki (or Chi, however you wish to spell it) is more akin to Midichlorians, the (Life-)Force that surrounds and flows through all living things in a Galaxy far far away. Monks excel in manipulating and controlling that, while psionics is purely the power of the Mind; thoughts projected outwards. In many ways, Ki is much more like standard magic than Psionics will ever be.

[AstralFire]

As it's been pointed out numerous times before, Ki (or Chi, however you wish to spell it) is more akin to Midichlorians, the (Life-)Force that surrounds and flows through all living things in a Galaxy far far away. Monks excel in manipulating and controlling that, while psionics is purely the power of the Mind; thoughts projected outwards. In many ways, Ki is much more like standard magic than Psionics will ever be.

Psionics became focused on thought relatively recently, actually, and there used to be psi for every single stat -- it has a much closer relationship to ki than D&D Magic traditionally does.

[Arkhios]

Psionics became focused on thought relatively recently, actually, and there used to be psi for every single stat -- it has a much closer relationship to ki than D&D Magic traditionally does.

I must admit, when I wrote that previous comment, I didn't remember the every-stat-psi of earlier editions, which does indeed seem more like Ki. I would note, though, that while it had closer relationship to Ki, that's not the case anymore. Psionics went through drastic changes, and I'm inclined to believe there was a good reason for it.
(it felt weird even back then. Cool idea, yet still weird; I never played them, but I know I've seen the old rules at some point)

[AstralFire]

I must admit, when I wrote that previous comment, I didn't remember the every-stat-psi of earlier editions, which does indeed seem more like Ki. I would note, though, that while it had closer relationship to Ki, that's not the case anymore. Psionics went through drastic changes, and I'm inclined to believe there was a good reason for it.
(it felt weird even back then. Cool idea, yet still weird; I never played them, but I know I've seen the old rules at some point)

I'd still say it's a little bit closer, tbh, just not so much that I'd disallow it in this case. The spell preparation system at its core still goes deeper into "magic as supernatural programming" than "magic as well of power" even though as of this edition, the latter has a very firm hold on things.

[Arkhios]

I'd still say it's a little bit closer, tbh, just not so much that I'd disallow it in this case. The spell preparation system at its core still goes deeper into "magic as supernatural programming" than "magic as well of power" even though as of this edition, the latter has a very firm hold on things.

I see where you're coming from. I really do, and I appreciate that point of view as much as my own. :)
I suppose it's time to agree to disagree then?