Forgotten Rules

[Sliver]

Recently, I was browsing the SRD trying to decide how to dress my character, when I came across this:


Courtier’s Outfit

This outfit includes fancy, tailored clothes in whatever fashion happens to be the current style in the courts of the nobles. Anyone trying to influence nobles or courtiers while wearing street dress will have a hard time of it (-2 penalty on Charisma-based skill checks to influence such individuals). If you wear this outfit without jewelry (costing an additional 50 gp), you look like an out-of-place commoner.

I have never encountered this during play, and wouldn't consider using this rule regardless. Clothes might add a modifier to a check, but saying that all nobles are harder to convince or intimidate if your outfit doesn't cost at least 80 gold is a bit...

But that's not the point. The rule is so random and obscure that I was curious, what other such rules have you noticed, even though they never, or rarely, actually appear in play, partially because nobody is aware of them.

[johnbragg]

Recently, I was browsing the SRD trying to decide how to dress my character, when I came across this:



I have never encountered this during play, and wouldn't consider using this rule regardless. Clothes might add a modifier to a check, but saying that all nobles are harder to convince or intimidate if your outfit doesn't cost at least 80 gold is a bit...

But that's not the point. The rule is so random and obscure that I was curious, what other such rules have you noticed, even though they never, or rarely, actually appear in play, partially because nobody is aware of them.

I was writing up a template in the Homebrew section yesterday, and I noticed that there is still an entry in the monster stat block for Treasure. I thought that went out with 2E.

[Âmesang]

Remember Potion Miscibility (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b)?

There's also the old rule that every alignment had its own special language.

[Sliver]

Is the treasure entry really unnoticed? I've checked it quite often, when the treasure didn't really have plot importance...

I also don't think that an April Fools article would really count... :smallamused:

[Arael666]

Remember Potion Miscibility (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b)?

There's also the old rule that every alignment had its own special language.

Seriously? it's a joke! why do people in these foruns have such a hard time understanding that? same deal with chicken infested, it's not for gameplay....

[Âmesang]

I guess I'll keep that in mind if I ever get to play 1st Edition. :smallconfused: Or is this less about the left-behind rules of days gone by and more about the stuff people tend to overlook 'cause they either misread or don't care (which would apply to way too many things with my last group)?


POTION MISCIBILITY

The magical mixtures and compounds which comprise potions are not always compatible. You must test the miscibility of potions whenever:

two potions are actually intermingled, or
a potion is consumed by a creature while another such liquid already consumed is still in effect
While it is possible to prepare a matrix which lists each potion type and cross references each to show a certain result when one is intermingled with the other, such a graph has two drawbacks. First, it does not allow for differences in formulae from alchemist and/or magic-user. Second, it will require continual addition as new potion types are added to the campaign. Therefore, it is suggested that the following table be used - with, perhaps, the decision that a delusion potion will mix with anything, that oil of slipperiness taken with oil of etherealness will always increase the chance for the imbiber to be lost in the Ethereal Plane for 5-30 days to 50%, and treasure finding mixed with any other type of potion will always yield a lethal poison. Whatever certain results you settle upon far your campaign, the random results from the table apply to all other cases.

DUNGEON MASTER'S Guide, p.119 (Revised Edition—December, 1979)

CHARACTER LANGUAGES

In addition to the common tongue, all intelligent creatures able to converse in speech use special languages particular to their alignment. These alignment languages are: Chaotic Evil, Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Lawful Good, Lawful Neutral, Neutral Evil, Neutral Good, and Neutrality. The alignment of your character will dictate which language he or she speaks, for only one alignment dialect can be used by a character (cf. CHARACTER CLASSES, The Assassin). If a character changes alignment, the previously known language is no longer able to be spoken by him or her.

Player's Handbook, p.34 (6th Printing—January, 1980)

[Sliver]

Well, considering that this is the 3rd edition D&D forums, and that you linked to an april fools article... It still isn't really what I intended regarding 'forgotten' rules...

[Hal0Badger]

From SRD, for Jump skill:

If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a -6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet.

One of the things I forget about constantly.

[HalfQuart]

From SRD, for Jump skill:
One of the things I forget about constantly.
Yeah, I forget about that and the double armor-check penalty to swim checks until I load my character into Heroforge Anew and find I have a swim check of -8... "But I have an 18 Strength!.... Ah, right, full plate gives -12 to Swim."

[Troacctid]

Similarly, distance penalties for Spot and Listen. I never remember to apply them.

Oh, and having ranks in Tumble improves your AC bonus when fighting defensively or using total defense. That's a thing, apparently.

[ComaVision]

Pinning in a grapple, I've never seen it used.

[AvatarVecna]

There's always that classic rule about multiple abjurations being close to each other for more than a day.

EDIT: More specifically, this one:


If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Search skill drops by 4.

[ComaVision]

There's always that classic rule about multiple abjurations being close to each other for more than a day.

I'm unfamiliar with this. Explain?

[AvatarVecna]

I'm unfamiliar with this. Explain?

Edited into my previous post, but in case you missed it:


If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Search skill drops by 4.

As far as "obscure rules that everybody forgets because it never comes up" goes, this is one that takes the cake.

[Telok]

Massive Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage)

If you ever sustain a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. If you take 50 points of damage or more from multiple attacks, no one of which dealt 50 or more points of damage itself, the massive damage rule does not apply.

I don't think anyone ever plays with that one.

[AvatarVecna]

Massive Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage)


I don't think anyone ever plays with that one.

I've had DMs who've used it...but that was for an E6 game.

[Thurbane]

One that pops up now and again: Monster Manual, p.300. Calculating Saving Throws DCs.

It specifically calls out that if a creature has a non-ability score normally used for calculating a DC, it defaults to Cha instead.

So, for example, the poison attack of that Vampire Medusa is based on Cha, rather that it's non-existant Con.

I don't think this rule got translated into the SRD, so a lot of folks are not aware of it.

[Melcar]

Pinning in a grapple, I've never seen it used.

Chokehold needs this, but then again... We have never had a wrestler in our games...


Massive Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage)


I don't think anyone ever plays with that one.

Actually we do...

[Kurald Galain]

One thing that people tend to forget but crops up every now and then is that tieflings aren't people.

That is, they're not affected by Enlarge Person and similar spells.

[AtlasSniperman]

From SRD, for Jump skill:
One of the things I forget about constantly.

I had a player playing a Thri-kreen Monk with full ranks in Jump.... He sure as hell remembers this rule.


Massive Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage)
I don't think anyone ever plays with that one.
I do, Though I modify it so that it's DC 15 + 1 per 4 above 50 damage.


One thing that people tend to forget but crops up every now and then is that tieflings aren't people.

That is, they're not affected by Enlarge Person and similar spells.
I remember a player using the whole "Tieflings are outsiders" argument to avoid a spell and promptly got slapped with "Then you pay double for armour since you are 'nonhumanoid'"

[Necrov]

Pinning in a grapple, I've never seen it used.

I use it on my Elven Fighter/Reaping Mauler build to initiate the save or suc and then the save or die. I should point out, I only use it incredibly rarely when faced with weak lookouts or the like.

[Willie the Duck]

I remember a player using the whole "Tieflings are outsiders" argument to avoid a spell and promptly got slapped with "Then you pay double for armour since you are 'nonhumanoid'"

Wow. Problem DM. The outsider factor is a major part of the LA for tieflings. Why wouldn't the player argue for it? The nonhumanoid thing on the other hand...

[AtlasSniperman]

Wow. Problem DM. The outsider factor is a major part of the LA for tieflings. Why wouldn't the player argue for it? The nonhumanoid thing on the other hand...
Wasn't so much that the PC was immune to some effect(cant remember which), but that he taunted not the casting NPC but the DM for it.

[Albions_Angel]

Similarly, distance penalties for Spot and Listen. I never remember to apply them.

Oh, and having ranks in Tumble improves your AC bonus when fighting defensively or using total defense. That's a thing, apparently.

We have always played with spot/listen distance penalties. Its +1 to the DC for every 10 feet right? Well when you have 6 PCs in a marching order, that can make all the difference. Never heard of the tumble one though...


Pinning in a grapple, I've never seen it used.

Used it multiple times. Had it used on me. Its great for ending a fight quickly and without bloodshed.

[Alex12]

One thing that people tend to forget but crops up every now and then is that tieflings aren't people.

That is, they're not affected by Enlarge Person and similar spells.

That's both good and bad. On the one hand, tieflings (and aasimars, ifrits, oreads, and all the other planetouched and all the other non-Humanoid races) are unaffected by stuff like Charm Person. OTOH, buffs like Enlarge Person also don't work.
I do know that I personally would be okay with a non-Humanoid sorcerer learning a Charm spell of the same level as Charm Person that only works on their own type. So tieflings get Charm Person, and so on.

[Telonius]

Spell Resistance applies to all spells, including beneficial ones; but you can raise and lower it with a standard action. (So, yes, if you're at -1, you can't lower your SR. The party Cleric has to overcome it in order to cast a Cure spell. And everybody goes crosseyed about the definition of "own item" if somebody tries to give you a potion). My groups were constantly forgetting/ignoring this, so much that we eventually houseruled it that SR doesn't need to be lowered for beneficial spells.

[Sliver]

I remember a player using the whole "Tieflings are outsiders" argument to avoid a spell and promptly got slapped with "Then you pay double for armour since you are 'nonhumanoid'"

I get being annoyed when a player taunts the DM, but he is right, and the opposed argument is rather petty. A lesser planetouched would be humanoid, but his shape is the same as a normal planetouched. If you wouldn't increase the cost of armor for a lesser tiefling, it's unfair to increase it to a normal tiefling. But being immune to humanoid only spells is fair, considering the only difference between a tiefling and a lesser one is the outsider tag and +1 LA.

[ComaVision]

I use the massive damage rules but I can only remember a few times where the save wasn't made.

[Alex12]

Stone Dragon maneuvers can only be initiated if the initiator is in contact with the ground.

[nyjastul69]

30% of magical weapons shed light as per the light spell. I ignore this one myself.

[Telonius]

The Tumble skill can be treated as though it were the Perform skill for entertaining an audience and earning money.

[Mr Adventurer]

I had a 15th level character die to massive damage. Rolled the 1 on the first round of combat against a normal Orb of Acid. Very annoyed.

[Alex12]

The Tumble skill can be treated as though it were the Perform skill for entertaining an audience and earning money.
As can Sleight of Hand. Similarly, Craft can be used to make money in exactly the same manner as Profession.
Not sure how forgotten this is, but Craft(alchemy) can only be used by spellcasters.

[ShurikVch]

Clerics of Tharizdun have 7th ability - Insanity: you should add it to Wisdom for spellcasting, but subtract from Wisdom for everything else

Adepts of Iron One (Into the Dragons' Lair) are able to rebuke Shadows

[Janthkin]

There's the +1 to hit for attacking from higher ground.

[Hal0Badger]

Another one:

If you try to trip a foe and fail, he may try to trip you back. If you are doing it with a weapon, you can drop the weapon if you fail and want to avoid being tripped.

Never used this one as well.

[Âmesang]

There's the +1 to hit for attacking from higher ground.
Guess Anakin forgot that, too. :smalltongue:

[Telok]

I'm amazed by the use of the massive damage rule. At our table it would be a pretty straight penalty to melee mundanes starting around 7th level and only getting worse as they levelled up. The magic items that replace a fort save with a concentration check (can't fail on a 1) are pretty ubiquitious on our casters.

I often see people forget about having to communicate with summoned creatures to get them to do anything but attack nearby enemies.

[Pale Sun]

Massive Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#massiveDamage)


I don't think anyone ever plays with that one.

I actually had the complete opposite experience. Never played without it!

[Elkad]

Distance penalties on spot. I'm using a modified version of that. Distance doubles for each penalty point. ( -1 beyond 10, -2 past 20, -3 past 40, etc) -6 at 100 yards seems reasonable. Of course my method breaks at ridiculous distances instead of up close. Spotting someone standing on the moon is only -28 or so.

I should probably cap it at -10 at 1 mile, and then a flat -1 per mile after that.

[Morcleon]

Boiling water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#heatDangers) is unique in its ability to deal scaling damage rather than fire damage.


Boiling water deals 1d6 points of scalding damage, unless the character is fully immersed, in which case it deals 10d6 points of damage per round of exposure.

[Chronikoce]

Not sure how forgotten this is, but Craft(alchemy) can only be used by spellcasters.

Well what do you know. I'm sure I must have read that at some point but I certainly didn't remember that it was the case. I guess you can't be a mad scientist whipping up crazy volatile concoctions without DM approval.



If you try to trip a foe and fail, he may try to trip you back. If you are doing it with a weapon, you can drop the weapon if you fail and want to avoid being tripped.


I apparently misread that line and have always assumed that improved trip removed the chance for this to occur. This seems like it would temper the strength of improved trip some at least.

[Forrestfire]

The Player's Handbook states that you can automatically lower any special resistance (like an elf's immunity to sleep) to an effect when voluntarily failing your saving throw against a spell. Only works with spells, and only spells that allow saves, but it's got some utility for bypassing your own SR or immunity if needed.

[Thurbane]

I had a 15th level character die to massive damage. Rolled the 1 on the first round of combat against a normal Orb of Acid. Very annoyed.

Playing RHoD, our Warmage one shotted a Red Dragon with a Sudden Empowered Orb of Cold, when it rolled a 1 (maybe a 2?) on it's save.

The DM was devastated, we thought it was pretty awesome. :smallbiggrin:

(Our group always plays with the massive damage rules in place).

[SwordChucks]

The Tumble skill can be treated as though it were the Perform skill for entertaining an audience and earning money.

I remembered that one, but it's never come up considering you can off a goblin and sell his gear for more gold.

I've never seen anyone drop prone for the bonus vs. ranged attacks either.

[HunterOfJello]

You can do a charge with only a standard (or move) action if you only have a standard (or move) action that turn (ex: surprise round).

You get a free set of clothing from a short list in addition to your starting gold.

You can get barding (armor) for your animal companion. Most groups I've seen never do this.

[Thurbane]

You can do a charge with only a standard (or move) action if you only have a standard (or move) action that turn (ex: surprise round).

Also handy for Zombies.

[LTwerewolf]

Distance penalties on spot. I'm using a modified version of that. Distance doubles for each penalty point. ( -1 beyond 10, -2 past 20, -3 past 40, etc) -6 at 100 yards seems reasonable. Of course my method breaks at ridiculous distances instead of up close. Spotting someone standing on the moon is only -28 or so.

I should probably cap it at -10 at 1 mile, and then a flat -1 per mile after that.

Still broken though. Seeing someone at 2 miles is only minimally harder than seeing someone at 3 miles? Lacks consistency.

[Alex12]

Well what do you know. I'm sure I must have read that at some point but I certainly didn't remember that it was the case. I guess you can't be a mad scientist whipping up crazy volatile concoctions without DM approval.


Also, by RAW, this disqualifies (among other things) psionicists, truenamers, binders, shadowcasters, and warlocks from putting ranks into that skill. What really makes it hilarious, though, is that Epic Warlocks can take Augmented Alchemy as a bonus feat (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a).

[Jon_Dahl]

Here's one for you:
If something affects your dexterity DURING combat, everyone will always forget to adjust the initiative count. Like if you're dying, your ref modifier to your initiative should be -5. This is important if the dying character has to roll the percentile chance ON their turn (The DM is free to choose when the roll has to be made, but I guess it's usually on the dying character's turn).

[Sliver]

Here's one for you:
If something affects your dexterity DURING combat, everyone will always forget to adjust the initiative count. Like if you're dying, your ref modifier to your initiative should be -5. This is important if the dying character has to roll the percentile chance ON their turn (The DM is free to choose when the roll has to be made, but I guess it's usually on the dying character's turn).

Is there a rule that actually supports that?


Initiative Checks

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).

You only make the check once. The only rules regarding changing initiative are when you delay or ready, otherwise it remains the same.

[Kurald Galain]

I've never seen anyone drop prone for the bonus vs. ranged attacks either.
Funny, we do that all the time. It just feels natural to some players.


You get a free set of clothing from a short list in addition to your starting gold.
Everybody just seems to assume that adventurers are clothed automatically :smallbiggrin:

[Jon_Dahl]

Is there a rule that actually supports that?



You only make the check once. The only rules regarding changing initiative are when you delay or ready, otherwise it remains the same.

Well, it seems that I was wrong. Thank you!

[Sliver]

Funny, we do that all the time. It just feels natural to some players.

How about the kneeling/sitting combat modifiers? Ever used that?

I think that not having rules regarding what action it takes to kneel or stand up from a kneeling position may be the cause for that...

[Kurald Galain]

How about the kneeling/sitting combat modifiers? Ever used that?

We generally rule that counts as prone.

[Albions_Angel]

Does anyone actually use XP penalties for multiclassing? That seems to be one even the creators forgot as more and more books came out. Some prerequisites for PrCs require multiclassing that would cause significant XP loss to the degree that it cant be intended.

Or is that just the rule everyone WANTS to forget?

[Mr Adventurer]

Playing RHoD, our Warmage one shotted a Red Dragon with a Sudden Empowered Orb of Cold, when it rolled a 1 (maybe a 2?) on it's save.

The DM was devastated, we thought it was pretty awesome. :smallbiggrin:

(Our group always plays with the massive damage rules in place).

Funnily enough, my character in question was a Warmage gish (I was young, okay); and separately in OUR Red Hand of Doom game I played a Warmage... who was killed by a red dragon.

[Telonius]

Also, by RAW, this disqualifies (among other things) psionicists, truenamers, binders, shadowcasters, and warlocks from putting ranks into that skill. What really makes it hilarious, though, is that Epic Warlocks can take Augmented Alchemy as a bonus feat (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a).

Warlock's Imbue Item might allow them to qualify to craft an alchemical item:

He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of a required spell he doesn't know or can't cast.

[Khedrac]

I've never seen anyone drop prone for the bonus vs. ranged attacks either.
I have even done this as a DM. The party webbed a demon in a narrow corridor and then followed it up with a grease.
Seeing as the main damage dealer in the party once the web was cast was an archer and the demon was happily spamming unholy blight when he rolled a 3 on his save (which was going to pass) he decided to go down and annoy the archer.
I think the party eventually had to dispel the web (or perhaps burn it) as they really put the demon in a happy place from its point of view.

Massive Damage: we usually use the variant where the threshold depends on your size, but we make it a 1 round stun not death.

Most of the rules being quoted we use - main exceptions are magic weapons shedding light and abjuration spell interaction I think.

[The Viscount]

One that pops up now and again: Monster Manual, p.300. Calculating Saving Throws DCs.

It specifically calls out that if a creature has a non-ability score normally used for calculating a DC, it defaults to Cha instead.

So, for example, the poison attack of that Vampire Medusa is based on Cha, rather that it's non-existant Con.

I don't think this rule got translated into the SRD, so a lot of folks are not aware of it.

Thank you! I had seen this rule once, then I couldn't find it and thought I had dreamed it.

Not quite a rule, but I don't feel like I see that many people use the Chahar-aina and Dastana from OA. As long as you have armor proficiency, you can add 1 or 2 to your AC bonus for pretty cheap.

[LTwerewolf]

Not quite a rule, but I don't feel like I see that many people use the Chahar-aina and Dastana from OA. As long as you have armor proficiency, you can add 1 or 2 to your AC bonus for pretty cheap.

You can also enchant them separately, so while the enhancement bonuses won't stack, you can have one enchanted with a high enhancement bonus and the other stacked with a load of special properties for the most bang for your buck.

[Forrestfire]

Shooting into melee is worse than is often remembered:


Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.

Between this and the penalty alleviated by Precise Shot, a character not specialized for archery will often have a -8 effective penalty on their ranged attacks.

[ComaVision]

You can do a charge with only a standard (or move) action if you only have a standard (or move) action that turn (ex: surprise round).


It can't exceed your move speed though, compared to a normal charge being up to double your move speed.

[Bronk]

I've never seen anyone drop prone for the bonus vs. ranged attacks either.

The problem I've found with this tactic is that although you get a slight bonus, you're still being shot at.

[Elxir_Breauer]

The main rule my groups seem to ignore or forget about is Item Damage, especially on failed saves vs Fireball and the like. We've started using Critical Hit and Fumble decks though, so Item damage does result from the occasional Fumble again, but unless we roll a Nat 1 on a reflex save for half spell or effect, we tend to ignore items getting damaged from save fails.

[Sliver]

but unless we roll a Nat 1 on a reflex save for half spell or effect, we tend to ignore items getting damaged from save fails.

Well, that's good, right? Because items only get damaged on a nat 1 anyway.


If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects).

(But it's a good point. I tend to forget about the extra penalty from nat 1)

[Elkad]

I've never seen anyone drop prone for the bonus vs. ranged attacks either.


The problem I've found with this tactic is that although you get a slight bonus, you're still being shot at.

I've used it a fair amount. +4 to AC is fairly significant sometimes.
And there are lots of ways to fight back still. Spells, Xbow, rifle, wand, etc.

[nedz]

The Player's Handbook states that you can automatically lower any special resistance (like an elf's immunity to sleep) to an effect when voluntarily failing your saving throw against a spell. Only works with spells, and only spells that allow saves, but it's got some utility for bypassing your own SR or immunity if needed.

Well it's a standard action to suppress for 1 round - so unless you break the action economy (Swift action etc,) your SR will always apply against your own spells.

The rest of these I know, well except for the fancy clothing thing. We don't apply massive damage or xp penalties however; and I did recently have some zombies not do the counter trip thing because it is optional and the rogue was having a hard enough time as it was, also zombies are dumb.

[Gemini476]

The problem with massive damage is that it only applies when the damage is from a single attack - that is to say, it's hard for an unoptimized Fighter to do 50+ damage but relatively easy for, say, a Wizard or Dragon. Or fall damage.

A 15d6 Delayed Blast Fireball averages 52,5 damage, for instance - a Fighter with 34 Strength two-handing a +5 weapon that he has Greater Weapon Specialization in does an averages 34 damage per attack. He averages more damage than the fireball per round, obviously, but he doesn't average that DC15 save-or-die unless he scrounges up +16 damage from somewhere. (A flaming weapon with a six-point Power Attack, for instance.)

Optimized Fighters can meet that easily, of course, but optimized Fighters don't need save-or-dies to paste people in a single attack.

The rules also disadvantages the characters that are most likely to survive 50+ damage in a single shot - Fighters, Barbarians, and so on.

I understand why it is the way it is, but personally I don't think it works like it's intended to do. Much like favored classes and multiclass XP penalties. Or those ill-considered CA/CW rules on losing prestige classes when you lose the requirements.

Especially since you can always fail a save if you roll a natural 1 and 50+ damage becomes increasingly common in the higher levels.

[Coidzor]

I understand why it is the way it is, but personally I don't think it works like it's intended to do. Much like favored classes and multiclass XP penalties. Or those ill-considered CA/CW rules on losing prestige classes when you lose the requirements.

I must admit, I didn't think it was known who in particular came up with massive damage and why they thought it was a good addition.

[LTwerewolf]

I changed the rule a bit and have it so if you take more than half your health in damage on one attack (minimum to trigger is 25 damage, regardless of health), then you make a save for massive damage equal to 10+1/2 damage done, and on a fail you drop to -1.

[Gemini476]

I changed the rule a bit and have it so if you take more than half your health in damage on one attack (minimum to trigger is 25 damage, regardless of health), then you make a save for massive damage equal to 10+1/2 damage done, and on a fail you drop to -1.

That sounds like a decent houserule.

Personally I'd also make getting knocked into the negatives just put you at -1 regardless of the damage you took - that way the -1 to -10 gap is actually relevant at higher levels, and it'd probably help reduce the excessive lethality that rocket tag brings with it.

[LTwerewolf]

That sounds like a decent houserule.

Personally I'd also make getting knocked into the negatives just put you at -1 regardless of the damage you took - that way the -1 to -10 gap is actually relevant at higher levels, and it'd probably help reduce the excessive lethality that rocket tag brings with it.

We use the -con until death rule.

[Forrestfire]

Well it's a standard action to suppress for 1 round - so unless you break the action economy (Swift action etc,) your SR will always apply against your own spells.

That's a different rule (and also, your SR never applies to your own spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance)). What I'm referring to is this:


Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic (for example, an elf’s resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality.

[Bohandas]

I must admit, I didn't think it was known who in particular came up with massive damage and why they thought it was a good addition.

It helps with realism. It's not realistic to walk away from some of this stuff that characters may technically have enough hitpoints to survive by the time they encounter it. Then again, much of the game is inherently unrealistic, so it's a matter of picking your battles. Then again, it's arguable that they picked their battles well on this one, as the kind of suspension of disbelief needed to buy the whole magic aspect is wholly different from the suspension of disbelief needed to believe someone walking away from having their skin fall off, or being bitten in half, or being burned to a cinder; the first is a fantasy thing and the second is more of a cartoon thing.

[inuyasha]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but I never knew about the rule where up to six willing people can be effected by a touch range effect if they're within reach of the caster. That's amazing!

[Sliver]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but I never knew about the rule where up to six willing people can be effected by a touch range effect if they're within reach of the caster. That's amazing!

Not quite. It only says that you can touch up to six willing people with a full round action. If your spell is single target, that's not going to help.


You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action.


It helps with realism. It's not realistic to walk away from some of this stuff that characters may technically have enough hitpoints to survive by the time they encounter it. Then again, much of the game is inherently unrealistic, so it's a matter of picking your battles. Then again, it's arguable that they picked their battles well on this one, as the kind of suspension of disbelief needed to buy the whole magic aspect is wholly different from the suspension of disbelief needed to believe someone walking away from having their skin fall off, or being bitten in half, or being burned to a cinder; the first is a fantasy thing and the second is more of a cartoon thing.

But you wouldn't describe any damage dealt in the form of being cut in half or burned to a crisp, if the damaged character can walk away from it. HP is an abstraction. If an attack takes off 90% of your health, does it matter if it deals 9 points out of your 10 health, or if it deals 90 points out of your 100 health? If your character grows at the same rate that the threat does, why is a more experienced character more likely to die from the same relative risk?

It's similar to when DMs introduce fumbles. An experienced fighter swings more, so he fumbles more.

A flat 50 damage makes no sense when hp is an abstraction. Set it to some percentage of health if you want it to actually make sense.

[Gemini476]

We use the -con until death rule.

That doesn't change much, though, does it? It might just lead to you needing to go down to -20 or so before you die rather than -10, but it's not hard for higher-level opponents to take you from positives to way in the negatives in a single blow. Heck, a first-level Barbarian with a greatsword is already averaging maybe sixteen damage a hit?

A Cloud Giant is CR11 and does 32 damage a hit. With three attacks per round. On a crit they'll do 64 damage - if you have 54HP in the standard system you're just straight-up dead, and if you have 30CON in your system they'll get gibbed from 34HP.

If you're a 14CON d4 class, level 11, then you're not entirely unlikely to be completely one-shot by that crit from full health. Go straight to Dead, do not pass Dying, do not bleed out.



Anyway, for an actual obscure rule: as per the Epic Level Handbook, Perform can be used to influence attitudes much like Diplomacy can, with the same DCs.

[Bohandas]

But you wouldn't describe any damage dealt in the form of being cut in half or burned to a crisp, if the damaged character can walk away from it. HP is an abstraction. If an attack takes off 90% of your health, does it matter if it deals 9 points out of your 10 health, or if it deals 90 points out of your 100 health? If your character grows at the same rate that the threat does, why is a more experienced character more likely to die from the same relative risk?


The point is that they've been hit hard enough to cut anyone else in half or burn anyone else to a crisp.

[Sliver]

The point is that they've been hit hard enough to cut anyone else in half or burn anyone else to a crisp.

No, the amount of damage dealt isn't the point. In most campaigns, 10 or 20 damage would be enough to outright kill most NPCs. So what? What should matter is the relative damage taken. What the same amount of damage could have done to someone else shouldn't matter.

[asnys]

I must admit, I didn't think it was known who in particular came up with massive damage and why they thought it was a good addition.

I'm pretty sure it goes back to AD&D.

[LTwerewolf]

A Cloud Giant is CR11 and does 32 damage a hit. With three attacks per round. On a crit they'll do 64 damage - if you have 54HP in the standard system you're just straight-up dead, and if you have 30CON in your system they'll get gibbed from 34HP.



Assuming they hit a full attack. When things are actually dangerous, maybe you should use tactics other than stand there and beat each other in the face until someone falls down because clearly the other guy's gonna win that one, myeah? If a cloud giant (which doesn't have pounce unless the dm gives it to them) is hitting every attack in a full attack (implying he's even getting to full attack) then you're doing it wrong. The -con before death is to give a slightly larger buffer at low levels. At high levels you need to prevent those things from happening and should have the tools by then to do so.

[Gemini476]

Assuming they hit a full attack. When things are actually dangerous, maybe you should use tactics other than stand there and beat each other in the face until someone falls down because clearly the other guy's gonna win that one, myeah? If a cloud giant (which doesn't have pounce unless the dm gives it to them) is hitting every attack in a full attack (implying he's even getting to full attack) then you're doing it wrong. The -con before death is to give a slightly larger buffer at low levels. At high levels you need to prevent those things from happening and should have the tools by then to do so.

No, the average 32 damage (64 on a crit) is on a standard attack with their club.

If all attacks hit it's 96 damage (192 if they somehow get three crits).


-Con to die means that you get maybe a +10hp buffer if you're a really buff guy, in which case you're probably not too worried about it to begin with - the average character, though, gets something like a +2hp buffer?

It also doesn't scale too well with level.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Let me preface this by saying I've never read the actual Epic Level Handbook.


In the Epic Level rules on the SRD, Perform can ALSO be used to improve an NPCs disposition. Using the SAME DC's!




Also, according to the... Silverbeard spell (I think that's what it was called) from SpC, Elves can't grow beards.

[inuyasha]

Not quite. It only says that you can touch up to six willing people with a full round action. If your spell is single target, that's not going to help.

I'm not quite sure I follow? Aren't all touch spells technically single target?

[LTwerewolf]

No, the average 32 damage (64 on a crit) is on a standard attack with their club.

It also doesn't scale too well with level.

It's not supposed to scale with level. Higher levels have better means of avoiding hits entirely.

[Hecuba]

I'm not quite sure I follow? Aren't all touch spells technically single target?

Nope. Teleport, for example.

[fallensavior]

The problem with massive damage is that it only applies when the damage is from a single attack - that is to say, it's hard for an unoptimized Fighter to do 50+ damage but relatively easy for, say, a Wizard or Dragon. Or fall damage.

A 15d6 Delayed Blast Fireball averages 52,5 damage, for instance - a Fighter with 34 Strength two-handing a +5 weapon that he has Greater Weapon Specialization in does an averages 34 damage per attack. He averages more damage than the fireball per round, obviously, but he doesn't average that DC15 save-or-die unless he scrounges up +16 damage from somewhere. (A flaming weapon with a six-point Power Attack, for instance.)

Optimized Fighters can meet that easily, of course, but optimized Fighters don't need save-or-dies to paste people in a single attack.

The rules also disadvantages the characters that are most likely to survive 50+ damage in a single shot - Fighters, Barbarians, and so on.

I understand why it is the way it is, but personally I don't think it works like it's intended to do. Much like favored classes and multiclass XP penalties. Or those ill-considered CA/CW rules on losing prestige classes when you lose the requirements.

Especially since you can always fail a save if you roll a natural 1 and 50+ damage becomes increasingly common in the higher levels.

I use the massive damage rule but only apply it to physical attacks.

[fallensavior]

Also, according to the... Silverbeard spell (I think that's what it was called) from SpC, Elves can't grow beards.

According to the PHB, Elves cannot grow any facial or body hair.

[nedz]

According to the PHB, Elves cannot grow any facial or body hair.

That didn't make it into the SRD, it does cover the colour of their clothing though.

[Telonius]

I'm pretty sure it goes back to AD&D.

Yeah, I believe it was under the System Shock rules, and you had to roll a percentile (DC was variable, based on your CON score).

[Venger]

Yeah, I believe it was under the System Shock rules, and you had to roll a percentile (DC was variable, based on your CON score).
System shock also came up in a variety of other circumstances, such as when you were rez'd.

When someone would raise you from the dead, you needed to roll system shock, dependent on your con and some other stuff, including how many times you'd been brought back, with it getting harder each time.

This rule is also to blame for the superfluous fort save in stone to flesh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneToFlesh.htm)

[Khedrac]

This rule is also to blame for the superfluous fort save in stone to flesh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneToFlesh.htm)I have had a character die to that one :(

[nedz]

System shock also came up in a variety of other circumstances, such as when you were rez'd.

When someone would raise you from the dead, you needed to roll system shock, dependent on your con and some other stuff, including how many times you'd been brought back, with it getting harder each time.

This rule is also to blame for the superfluous fort save in stone to flesh (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/stoneToFlesh.htm)

Hmm, that would fix polymorph - which was also the rule, back in the day (Well for Poly Other at least).

[Venger]

I have had a character die to that one :(

I am truly sorry for your lot's wife


Hmm, that would fix polymorph - which was also the rule, back in the day (Well for Poly Other at least).

You realize it'd only make polymorph into another SoD with no listed way to fix it, right?

[nedz]

You realize it'd only make polymorph into another SoD with no listed way to fix it, right?

Yes, and it wouldn't fix the spell anyway - it would just add another pre-req to using it.
Also, system shock was very easy to pass - assuming you had reasonable Con, which most PCs do.

[Coidzor]

According to the PHB, Elves cannot grow any facial or body hair.

I forgot that so hard I thought it was just a genre convention.

[Âmesang]

Which reminds me of Círdan of Middle-earth, an elf so old he did have a beard. :smalltongue:

[DrMartin]

When you use a conjuration spell to create or transport something, it must do so on a surface capable of supporting its weight, and cannot be conjured floating in mid air.

Don't know if it counts as obscure for other people as well but it's something that pops up in the game I play quite often

[Khedrac]

Animals that have not been trained with the attack trick twice will not attack "unnatural" opponents (e.g. undead).

Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
Hmm, I have to confess that on looking this one up to quote the rule, I discovered that it also applies to magical beasts - something I did not know and I thought I knew the rule!

[nedz]

Animals that have not been trained with the attack trick twice will not attack "unnatural" opponents (e.g. undead).

I didn't know that - well done.

[Crake]

You can do a charge with only a standard (or move) action if you only have a standard (or move) action that turn (ex: surprise round).

You get a free set of clothing from a short list in addition to your starting gold.

You can get barding (armor) for your animal companion. Most groups I've seen never do this.

Actually, I believe this is specifically for partial actions. If you are limited to only a move action you cannot charge.

[torrasque666]

Actually, I believe this is specifically for partial actions. If you are limited to only a move action you cannot charge.
False.
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Bold for emphasis

[Troacctid]

Actually, I believe this is specifically for partial actions. If you are limited to only a move action you cannot charge.

Partial actions were removed with the 3.5 update. There's no longer any such thing.

[Thurbane]

When you use a conjuration spell to create or transport something, it must do so on a surface capable of supporting its weight, and cannot be conjured floating in mid air.

Don't know if it counts as obscure for other people as well but it's something that pops up in the game I play quite often

There's also a rule about overlapping Abjuration spells on an object or area causing a glowing aura, from memory...

[HunterOfJello]

Entangle is actually a status and if you are entangled and try to cast a spell you have to make a DC 15 Concentration check or lose the spell (all of which is not mentioned in the Entangle spell description). Because, you know, the Entangle spell really needed a boost in power...


Entangled: If you want to cast a spell while entangled in a net or by a tanglefoot bag (page 128) or while you’re affected by a spell with similar effects (such as entangle), you must make a DC 15 Concentration check to cast the spell. You lose the spell if you fail.

There are a few monsters in the Monster Manual that don't have pictures so are easy to forget. Derro are a prime example of this. They're evil part-drawf part-humans with a +2 LA (when sane enough to be PCs) who worship a god of insanity named Diirinka.

[Jowgen]

In the Epic Level rules on the SRD, Perform can ALSO be used to improve an NPCs disposition. Using the SAME DC's!

The DCs being the same is arguably a grave oversight; as they didn't bother to copy-paste the appropriate table from ELH in along with the rest of the skill-use entry. As far as I'm concerned, someone literally forgot that the DCs are different and decided to link the diplomacy section to save space/effort. :smallannoyed:

[TheCrowing1432]

At the beginning of combat everyone who hasnt taken their turn is flatfooted

[Venger]

At the beginning of combat everyone who hasnt taken their turn is flatfooted

Related, if you're flat-footed, you are not allowed to take aoos. this is combat reflexes' secondary and some say more important benefit.

[Svata]

Thank you! I had seen this rule once, then I couldn't find it and thought I had dreamed it.

Not quite a rule, but I don't feel like I see that many people use the Chahar-aina and Dastana from OA. As long as you have armor proficiency, you can add 1 or 2 to your AC bonus for pretty cheap.
Always use those.

[TiaC]

Which reminds me of Círdan of Middle-earth, an elf so old he did have a beard. :smalltongue:

So elves enter puberty at 7000?


Animals that have not been trained with the attack trick twice will not attack "unnatural" opponents (e.g. undead).

Hmm, I have to confess that on looking this one up to quote the rule, I discovered that it also applies to magical beasts - something I did not know and I thought I knew the rule!

So, magical beasts won't naturally attack each other and consider themselves to be unnatural? How does that work with territorial creatures? Actually, how do they reproduce?

[Venger]

So elves enter puberty at 7000?



So, magical beasts won't naturally attack each other and consider themselves to be unnatural? How does that work with territorial creatures? Actually, how do they reproduce?

No, just animals. Not other monster types.

[Coidzor]

No, just animals. Not other monster types.

I could totally see some kind of horrible RAW oversight that lead to dragons, magical beasts, and aberrations as well as other low-Int creatures that can be trained using Handle Animal automagically becoming unable to attack others of their kind without the extra trick spent, though.

[Forrestfire]

Well, the epic Handle Animal rules allow you to rear and train any creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#handleAnimal)...

[Heliomance]

Criticals don't actually multiply your base weapon daamge, they make you roll it twice (or more) and add the results.

[erok0809]

Criticals don't actually multiply your base weapon daamge, they make you roll it twice (or more) and add the results.

I actually just recently implemented this rule into my games; I like that it makes the damage more average, since you have two (or more) dice to roll.

[Janthkin]

Criticals don't actually multiply your base weapon daamge, they make you roll it twice (or more) and add the results.We've always played this way; it does indeed normalize the damage a bit, but most of the time (unless you're dealing with a x4 weapon) it's the bonuses to the damage that are the most impactful.

Here's one: "Invisibility" is essentially just a bonus to Hide checks (+20 if you're moving, +40 if you're standing still), so a reasonably-optimized Spot check will tend to overcome Invisibility fairly reliably.

[LTwerewolf]

You can figure out what square they're in but they still have concealment.

[Janthkin]

Right, but at least you know something is there. In my experience, too many of us (DMs & players) tend to treat Invisibility as a complete bar to detection without a magical counter (or scent/blindsense/tremorsense/etc.).

[Venger]

We've always played this way; it does indeed normalize the damage a bit, but most of the time (unless you're dealing with a x4 weapon) it's the bonuses to the damage that are the most impactful.

Here's one: "Invisibility" is essentially just a bonus to Hide checks (+20 if you're moving, +40 if you're standing still), so a reasonably-optimized Spot check will tend to overcome Invisibility fairly reliably.

Invisibility confers the very important ability to ignore enemies' dex to AC, even if their spot is high enough to hear you.

Mechanically, it's almost always easier to hear an invisible enemy than see them since the dcs are so much lower.

[tomandtish]

Remember Potion Miscibility (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b)?

There's also the old rule that every alignment had its own special language.

From that article...


Thus, if you have a vial with the above three potions, it takes three standard actions to drink them. Magic liquid is like liqueur, not beer; you cannot chug it.

That writer obviously never went to college...

[The Viscount]

Here's one that is often forgotten: Sentient undead have souls. It's a single sentence tucked into Magic Jar of all places.

Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.

Bonus sub-rule: This applies to liches as well. There's nothing that says their soul is in the phylactery (the entry simply calls it "life force").

[TheTeaMustFlow]

According to the DMG, you can hire 1st level Warriors for 2sp a day, and higher level ones for 3sp/level a day. Thus, a 20th level warrior costs a mere 6 gp a day. A first level Aristocrat starts with an average of 270gp.

[frogglesmash]

I don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but if you want a familiar you've got to fork over 100gp worth of magical materials which means most level 1 sorcerers and wizards shouldn't actually be starting with a familiar.

[Zaq]

Invisibility confers the very important ability to ignore enemies' dex to AC, even if their spot is high enough to hear you.

Mechanically, it's almost always easier to hear an invisible enemy than see them since the dcs are so much lower.

That must be kinda difficult.

[Venger]

That must be kinda difficult.

You mean you don't play with spot/listen transparency?

[Coidzor]

You mean you don't play with spot/listen transparency?

Can you hear the colors I'm smelling?

[martixy]

You know... I kind of like System shock as a concept. Not that I'd use it.

And I think both Half-HP massive damage and -con death are standard parts of Pathfinder. Sensible ones too. And they do help a lot.

The one thing I've had trouble with consistently is JUMP.
1. Forgetting to count your size's vertical reach into the high jump result.
2. Every 10 ft. of speed above 30 ft. grants a +4 bonus to your jump check. Below imposes a -6 penalty.
3. Taking damage from a fall means you land prone.

Other bits:

With BAB+1 you can draw a weapon as part of a move action. Without that, you specifically have to spend a move action to do so.
You can't use an immediate action in a turn you've take a swift action in.
Flanking is more finicky than most people play it. Only the creatures that flank an enemy receive the bonus, it's not a status effect applied to the enemy. In some cases where you think you'd get the bonus, you don't. Imagine an L-shape. The creatures at the end of the L-shape do not flank the enemy in the middle.
You can't make Attacks of Opportunity while you are in Total Defense. It's also a standard action(so you can move as well).
Fumbles are not, in fact, a standard part of the game(it's actually rather shocking how many DMs forget this). Critical hits are.
Sickened and Nauseated are not linked conditions(like the fear statuses are), despite logic pointing otherwise(though they are in PF I believe).
Eschew Materials is not a free bonus feat for every caster by default. Though what group wouldn't grant it automatically I have no idea.

[Sliver]

You can't use an immediate action in a turn you've take a swift action in.


You got that the other way around. If you use an immediate action, it consumes the swift action of your following round. You can do swift and follow with an immediate.


If you use an immediate action when it isn’t your turn, you can’t use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn

[nedz]

You mean you don't play with spot/listen transparency?

Nah, your character just needs a good supply of mushrooms.

Or contract Synaesthesia.

[atemu1234]

Nah, your character just needs a good supply of mushrooms.

Or contract Synaesthesia.

Pretty sure you don't contract it normally. However, considering the head trauma some characters will go through...

[martixy]

Nah, your character just needs a good supply of mushrooms.

Or contract Synaesthesia.

You really only need some UPD and a cheap L1 dorje.

[Forrestfire]

You got that the other way around. If you use an immediate action, it consumes the swift action of your following round. You can do swift and follow with an immediate.

Note that he said in a turn, not in a round. They're swift actions during your turn, so if you use a swift, you need to wait until after your turn ends to use an immediate.


Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

[Sliver]

Note that he said in a turn, not in a round. They're swift actions during your turn, so if you use a swift, you need to wait until after your turn ends to use an immediate.

Then I'll simply question how forgotten that rule is...

[Venger]

Can you hear the colors I'm smelling?

working on it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/synesthete.htm)

[Bohandas]

Eschew Materials is not a free bonus feat for every caster by default. Though what group wouldn't grant it automatically I have no idea.


Unless you're using a lot of homebrew spells with spell compenents that have values measured in sp or your wizard gets captured mpre often than Lois Lane a caster with Eschew Materials is only trivially different from a caster without Eschew Materials anyway



Fumbles are not, in fact, a standard part of the game(it's actually rather shocking how many DMs forget this).

Nor is instant kill on a natural 20 on a critical hit confirmation roll

[TheCrowing1432]

If you are two weapon fighting you can designate which hand is the "main" hand and which is the "off" hand by a free action and can switch them at will.

[ace rooster]

Unless you're using a lot of homebrew spells with spell compenents that have values measured in sp or your wizard gets captured mpre often than Lois Lane a caster with Eschew Materials is only trivially different from a caster without Eschew Materials anyway



Nor is instant kill on a natural 20 on a critical hit confirmation roll

I've played a magic jar based caster for whom Eschew Materials was critical. He would possess randoms in combat, and go from there. Most did not have a spell component pouch on them. Component pouches can be sundered as well, which is another point in it's favour (and also usually forgotten).

[martixy]

Unless you're using a lot of homebrew spells with spell compenents that have values measured in sp or your wizard gets captured mpre often than Lois Lane a caster with Eschew Materials is only trivially different from a caster without Eschew Materials anyway

Nor is instant kill on a natural 20 on a critical hit confirmation roll
I've played a magic jar based caster for whom Eschew Materials was critical. He would possess randoms in combat, and go from there. Most did not have a spell component pouch on them. Component pouches can be sundered as well, which is another point in it's favour (and also usually forgotten).

This is one of those things where it depends on the feel of the campaign the DM is going for. It's included or not based on the what the DM wants happening in the campaign. If it's a down-to-earth, more personal campaign in a manner of speaking, I would not automatically grant this(think Dresden files).

Others who would not go into as much detail and focus on the heroic scope of the PCs actions often forego minutia like this.

As for the criticals... well, the classic rule is 3 nat20 = instagib (https://youtu.be/5bZrKzLsD7k?t=30s). It's one of those fun houserules, who I believe everyone is aware is nor RAW, but everyone plays with because it's hilarious when it does happen(and rare enough not to lose its novelty).

[nyjastul69]

This is one of those things where it depends on the feel of the campaign the DM is going for. It's included or not based on the what the DM wants happening in the campaign. If it's a down-to-earth, more personal campaign in a manner of speaking, I would not automatically grant this(think Dresden files).

Others who would not go into as much detail and focus on the heroic scope of the PCs actions often forego minutia like this.

As for the criticals... well, the classic rule is 3 nat20 = instagib (https://youtu.be/5bZrKzLsD7k?t=30s). It's one of those fun houserules, who I believe everyone is aware is nor RAW, but everyone plays with because it's hilarious when it does happen(and rare enough not to lose its novelty).

FWIW, I've never seen a 3 Nat 20 be the thing you called it(instagib?). I've heard of such house rules, but never seen it play in over 30 years of gaming. I would suggest it is not at all common or classic. Even if it is common, classic is nor a word I would use to describe something so odd.

[torrasque666]

FWIW, I've never seen a 3 Nat 20 be the you called it. I've heard of such house rules, but never seen it play in over 30 years of gaming. I would suggest it is not at all common or classic. Even if it is common, classic is a word used to describe something so odd.
We use it in my campaigns (both played and DM'd). Its come close, but I think I've seen it happen...twice or thrice.

[martixy]

FWIW, I've never seen a 3 Nat 20 be the you called it. I've heard of such house rules, but never seen it play in over 30 years of gaming. I would suggest it is not at all common or classic. Even if it is common, classic is a word used to describe something so odd.

Well that's been my perception, but put that way it may simply be the fault of the personal filter bubble of mine created by any number of factors such as place of residence, friend circle or interests. Or yours.

P.S. I've seen it happen twice. There's another thread about fun moments where I detail one of these instances.

Edit to address your edit: Come on, I even gave you visual aids. (The word is a link to a video.)

[Telonius]

We use the houserule. The one time I've seen it happen in gameplay was when a blaster sorcerer had to make an attack roll on one of his spells. The targeted creature was described as "going up like the Death Star."

The only really unfortunate part was that the character's player had been absent that session, and had left us his character sheet. So he didn't even get to see his crowning moment of awesome.

[OldTrees1]

FWIW, I've never seen a 3 Nat 20 be the thing you called it(instagib?). I've heard of such house rules, but never seen it play in over 30 years of gaming. I would suggest it is not at all common or classic. Even if it is common, classic is nor a word I would use to describe something so odd.

The variant rule is in the DMG. I included it after I read it. Up until both the 3 20s(variant rule) and 4 1s(houserule) came up in the same combat. It was a joke campaign slashing through the Elder Evils in order and the 2 instagib results still were out of place.

[RolkFlameraven]

Both trip 20's and trip 1's are in my games and have been for nearly 20 years now. So far its never landed on a PC thought 20,20,19 or 1,1,2 have happened a LOT. Still I can count on two hands the combined number of times its happened.

Two of the more memorable are when a Dragon was going to flyby attack the group and ended up sniping its own neck as it dive bombed the ground, so the encounter went something along the lines of 'The dragon dives at you roaring in the grip of the dracorage!' Saves are rolled for frightful presence, all but one pass and then 1, "huh, ok" rolls 1 "welp ok, lets see if..." 1 *Blink* "um... it misjudged the distance to the ground due to the Rage and slammed into it at full speed snapping its neck..." room just looks at each other then start laughing.

The other as also against a dragon, this time a Purple from Dragon Comp, Purples have a cool breath weapon with a few modes. They are also force dragons so you can't really toss up a resist against them. The first round was normal breath weapon nuked the hell out of the party, a few rounds later it used the 2nd mode that makes its breath a force blade letting it attack with its BAB with up to four iterative attacks dealing half breath weapon damage as touch attacks on top of all of its normal attacks save its bite.

So the Barb is down to rage HP, the Psi is bleeding out, the Ranger is dead. The PsyWar comes running in buffed up and hits with triple 20's. Saving the rest of the party from certain death as they had managed to only do about 260 out of its 660 HP in the previous rounds. But just to add insult to injury he rolled what his damage would have been, and that damage triggered massive damage and the thing rolled a 1, so it was double dead.

Best part, it was the PsyWar's B-day.

[zergling.exe]

Both trip 20's and trip 1's are in my games and have been for nearly 20 years now. So far its never landed on a PC thought 20,20,19 or 1,1,2 have happened a LOT. Still I can count on two hands the combined number of times its happened.

Two of the more memorable are when a Dragon was going to flyby attack the group and ended up sniping its own neck as it dive bombed the ground, so the encounter went something along the lines of 'The dragon dives at you roaring in the grip of the dracorage!' Saves are rolled for frightful presence, all but one pass and then 1, "huh, ok" rolls 1 "welp ok, lets see if..." 1 *Blink* "um... it misjudged the distance to the ground due to the Rage and slammed into it at full speed snapping its neck..." room just looks at each other then start laughing.

The other as also against a dragon, this time a Purple from Dragon Comp, Purples have a cool breath weapon with a few modes. They are also force dragons so you can't really toss up a resist against them. The first round was normal breath weapon nuked the hell out of the party, a few rounds later it used the 2nd mode that makes its breath a force blade letting it attack with its BAB with up to four iterative attacks dealing half breath weapon damage as touch attacks on top of all of its normal attacks save its bite.

So the Barb is down to rage HP, the Psi is bleeding out, the Ranger is dead. The PsyWar comes running in buffed up and hits with triple 20's. Saving the rest of the party from certain death as they had managed to only do about 260 out of its 660 HP in the previous rounds. But just to add insult to injury he rolled what his damage would have been, and that damage triggered massive damage and the thing rolled a 1, so it was double dead.

Best part, it was the PsyWar's B-day.

Stories should go over in the Fun Moments thread that's up. This thread is for posting about rules that are oft forgot.

[Venger]

You can't take a 5 foot step when subject to darkness.

[Magma Armor0]

I changed the rule a bit and have it so if you take more than half your health in damage on one attack (minimum to trigger is 25 damage, regardless of health), then you make a save for massive damage equal to 10+1/2 damage done, and on a fail you drop to -1.

We do something similar; half max health on one attack forces a save equal to 5+(damage over halfway point)

[OldTrees1]

You can't take a 5 foot step when subject to darkness.

Location? I think I need to reread that section.

[Sliver]

Location? I think I need to reread that section.


You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness.

Link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm) 10chars

[Khedrac]

You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness.
Actually that does not mean one cannot take a 5' step when in the area of a darkness spell - as it doesn't hamper movement.

What's one cannot do is take a 5' step in total darkness - as that does hamper movement (treat as blinded = half movement).

Curiously the "no 5' step" rule is very specific so other limitations on movement (like actually being blind) don't prevent the 5' step, just terrain and darkness-related movement effects.

[torrasque666]

Using a tower shield gives a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Granted, this may also just be because everyone forgets that tower shields might not be Animated.

[ComaVision]

Using a tower shield gives a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Granted, this may also just be because everyone forgets that tower shields might not be Animated.

An animated tower shield still gives the -2 penalty to attack rolls.


A character with an animated shield still takes any penalties associated with shield use, such as armor check penalty, arcane spell failure chance, and nonproficiency.

[Khedrac]

Using a tower shield gives a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Granted, this may also just be because everyone forgets that tower shields might not be Animated.
Heh - that is one I had forgotten. Note that having it animated won't prevent the -2 penalty to attack rolls...

Anyway you reminded me of one: Bucklers can be worn when using a 2-handed weapon, but they impose a -1 penalty to attack if you do so.

[OldTrees1]

Heh - that is one I had forgotten. Note that having it animated won't prevent the -2 penalty to attack rolls...

Anyway you reminded me of one: Bucklers can be worn when using a 2-handed weapon, but they impose a -1 penalty to attack if you do so.

d20srd.org buckler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#buckler)
You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

Although there is a feat to fix that

[Thurbane]

Yeah, the wording of that has always been ambiguous to my group - do you lose buckler bonus to AC only when TWF, or also when using a 2-handed weapon? We play the latter reading.

[OldTrees1]

Yeah, the wording of that has always been ambiguous to my group - do you lose buckler bonus to AC only when TWF, or also when using a 2-handed weapon? We play the latter reading.
It does not appear ambiguous to me, your reading (the latter one) is correct.

"In any case," (moving on to describe a new case) "if you use a weapon in your off hand," (THF or TWF) "you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus" (effect)

[LTwerewolf]

Agree, the last line is describing the entirety of the section before it, not just the immediate sentence before it, else the phrase "in any case" would not have been used.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I don't know if it's been mentioned or not, but if you want a familiar you've got to fork over 100gp worth of magical materials which means most level 1 sorcerers and wizards shouldn't actually be starting with a familiar.

The real winner of this is sha'ir, who cannot cast spells until they get that 100 gp. Dragonborn of Bahamut also comes with a 100 gp price tag, so you technically cannot start as one at level one.

[Telok]

The real winner of this is sha'ir, who cannot cast spells until they get that 100 gp. Dragonborn of Bahamut also comes with a 100 gp price tag, so you technically cannot start as one at level one.

Sure you can. Wizard spellbook, it's just sold and the money used before play.

[Mr Adventurer]

It's not impossible to have over 100gp at level one anyway, depending on class. Martial classes usually start with the most gold, so they can buy armour presumably.

[Vertharrad]

The variant rule is in the DMG.

Actually the rule is 2 20's and then confirm(the 3rd one doesn't need to be a 20).
I played with a group that used this one until 1 player got this result 2 times in two weeks...it's odd that his dice he rolled it with disappeared shortly after. And the optional rule was rescinded.

[Starbuck_II]

Sure you can. Wizard spellbook, it's just sold and the money used before play.

How much money assuming 1/2 selling price as normal; can a Int 14 Wizard make?
I know you can sell all your cantrips. At the very least sell Read Magic cantrip since you can prepare that without a spellbook.

[Telok]

How much money assuming 1/2 selling price as normal; can a Int 14 Wizard make?
I know you can sell all your cantrips. At the very least sell Read Magic cantrip since you can prepare that without a spellbook.

Well...
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice
And...
Spellbook, Wizard’s (Blank)
A spellbook has 100 pages of parchment, and each spell takes up one page per spell level (one page each for 0-level spells).
And...
Selling a Spellbook
Captured spellbooks can be sold for a gp amount equal to one-half the cost of purchasing and inscribing the spells within (that is, one-half of 100 gp per page of spells). A spellbook entirely filled with spells (that is, with one hundred pages of spells inscribed in it) is worth 5,000 gp.

This gives us the book (15 gp), plus five first level spells (500 gp), plus all 0-level wizard spells (PHB has 19 alone so a minimum of 1,900 gp) is half of 2,415 gp. Minimum.

[Mr Adventurer]

If all Wizards know all Cantrips, who are you selling them to?

[LTwerewolf]

If all Wizards know all Cantrips, who are you selling them to?

Rogues with UMD.

[Troacctid]

You can't UMD a spellbook.

[OldTrees1]

If all Wizards know all Cantrips, who are you selling them to?

The wizard making a backup spellbook? Although I don't expect them to pay top dollar.

[torrasque666]

The wizard making a backup spellbook? Although I don't expect them to pay top dollar.
Well yeah. That's why you're only getting half its value. Don't you know a spellbooks value drops in half once you take it out the tower?

[LTwerewolf]

You can't UMD a spellbook.

No, but you can umd a scroll.

[Troacctid]

Well, low-level Wizards don't start with a giant pile of scrolls, so that's beside the point, isn't it?

[Jack_Simth]

If all Wizards know all Cantrips, who are you selling them to?
Apprentice wizards paying for them out of their college loans / grants / whatever.

[nedz]

If all Wizards know all Cantrips, who are you selling them to?

Paladins and Rangers

[Kelb_Panthera]

Paladins and Rangers

Sword of the Arcane Order for the win.

[Bohandas]

apparently any fire resistance confers immunity to lava

[DrMartin]

are we doing pathfinder too? if so, in PF all non-lethal damage in excess of your max hp total become real damage, a rule i discovered through this recent story from reddit/dndgreentext (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDGreentext/comments/47pa0d/cant_keep_a_good_hooker_down/).

[Venger]

when a monster has a SLA, you assume he casts it like a sor/wiz, if not, then cleric, then druid, bard, paladin, and ranger in that order.

[nedz]

Sword of the Arcane Order for the win.

Yes, though I'm not sure what they want with the Cantrips - Mystic Ranger excepting.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yes, though I'm not sure what they want with the Cantrips - Mystic Ranger excepting.

You can prep' cantrips in 1st level slots. There're a few winners in the list (prestidigitation) and there're always instaces of poorly informed buyers in any market.

A better question might be, why sell the book when you can rent it. PHB says that some wizards allow others to access their spellbook for a small fee of 50gp per level of the spell being copied, IIRC. Though, I always imagined that the half-price selling was supposed to be representative of hocking stuff to pawn brokers since that's about what they give for any particular item; half of what they think they can get selling it. That could, however, just be me overthinking the abstraction.

[Jack_Simth]

A better question might be, why sell the book when you can rent it. PHB says that some wizards allow others to access their spellbook for a small fee of 50gp per level of the spell being copied, IIRC. Though, I always imagined that the half-price selling was supposed to be representative of hocking stuff to pawn brokers since that's about what they give for any particular item; half of what they think they can get selling it. That could, however, just be me overthinking the abstraction.Half price is what adventurers get when they're selling relatively quickly to move on to the next conquest. Market price is what the guy who spends six years with the item sitting on his shelf collecting dust gets for being patient and waiting for the adventurer that actually is willing to part with that price because he wants it right now.

Same goes for wizard's spellbooks. The 50 gp per spell level is what they charge when the wizard who needs a particular spell tomorrow drops by... you know, after six months of nobody having enough to rent a peek.

[LTwerewolf]

That would make sense except for market price being affected by things with a shelf life. I allow my players to sell things at full price if they set up a market stand in a place where there may be a market for the particular item and spend the time to sell it.

[Jack_Simth]

That would make sense except for market price being affected by things with a shelf life.The context to which I'm responding is spellbooks. By default, spellbooks last essentially forever in good conditions (as do magic items of almost all sorts). Yeah, if you're selling bushels of apples or something, there's a lot less waiting involved - there's a pretty solid relationship between the cost of an item and how hard it is to sell (lower-value items are easier to afford, so they're purchased more readily... chat with a realtor sometime about how long they go between sales, then talk to a car salesman with the same question, then talk to a furniture salesman with the same question, then the person sitting behind the deli counter - the realtor will often go weeks to months between sales... and be working on several properties; the person on the car lot will talk to a lot of people in a day, but rarely make more than a small number of sales in a week; the furniture person is liable to make a few sales a day; meanwhile, the person behind the deli counter loses track of sales per hour around lunchtime in most cases).

I allow my players to sell things at full price if they set up a market stand in a place where there may be a market for the particular item and spend the time to sell it.Do you have a system for how long it takes? I'd be inclined to figure out what they'd make with Profession(Salesman) (or related) checks over a period of time trying to sell the item, and when that reaches half the value of the item they're trying to sell, they get full market value for it.

[asnys]

There's a rule for the inverse of energy drain, giving you a "positive level". As far as I know, it was never actually used by any monster.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Half price is what adventurers get when they're selling relatively quickly to move on to the next conquest. Market price is what the guy who spends six years with the item sitting on his shelf collecting dust gets for being patient and waiting for the adventurer that actually is willing to part with that price because he wants it right now.

Same goes for wizard's spellbooks. The 50 gp per spell level is what they charge when the wizard who needs a particular spell tomorrow drops by... you know, after six months of nobody having enough to rent a peek.

The spell market is more in the service sector than the merchandise sector.

I don't see any reason wizards in a college or academy wouldn't charge the same to any apprentice, acolyte, or student or colleague from a different department. They're obviously not going to bother with cantrips unless some SotAO half-caster stumbles onto campus but otherwise a lack of homogeny amongst the wizards there creates a potential market that any wizard would be a fool to ignore, given the costs associated with wizardry. You make scrolls and rent your book to anyone interested because you need every shiny copper on which you can get your arcane mitts. You then spend pretty much all of it on research materials and renting other wizards' books to expand your knowledge. You also trade spells one-for-one with any wizard offering the opportunity.

That or you go adventuring and use the obscene profits from that to fund your studies.

[LTwerewolf]

Do you have a system for how long it takes? I'd be inclined to figure out what they'd make with Profession(Salesman) (or related) checks over a period of time trying to sell the item, and when that reaches half the value of the item they're trying to sell, they get full market value for it.

The system takes into account city size (you divide time by size rank of city). You can do a haggle (diplomacy), gather information, or profession (merchant). DC for selling is 10 for every 1000. Something that's 50,000 is 500. It's a cumulative total, so as soon as you hit the dc, it's then sold. Can make one check per item type per day (within reason). If you have 16 +1 longswords, you can only make a check on 1 of them at a time.

Divide the check (then round up to the nearest 1) as follows:
Thorp 0.5 (double the time)
Hamlet 1
Village 1.5
Small town 2
Large town 2.5
Small city 5
Large city 6
Metropolis 8


The above 500 in a metropolis would be 63 DC, which is easily doable in a few days. It gets drastically harder as the place gets smaller. I also don't allow players to stack ridiculous bonuses to skills, so that abuse isn't a thing.

[Khedrac]

There's a rule for the inverse of energy drain, giving you a "positive level". As far as I know, it was never actually used by any monster.
OK that one is totally new to me - where on Oerth/Toril/etc. is it buried?

Very nice find.

[zergling.exe]

OK that one is totally new to me - where on Oerth/Toril/etc. is it buried?

Very nice find.

I believe it is in the glossary of MM3+

edit: Nvm, it's not in those. I know I've seen it but can't remember where...

[Jowgen]

I believe it is in the glossary of MM3+

edit: Nvm, it's not in those. I know I've seen it but can't remember where...

Bastion of Broken souls' Soul Totem artifact does the positive level thing. There may be others?

[ace rooster]

The rules for selling items are under the heading "selling loot". As far as I am aware there are no rules for selling items that you did not loot. ie, no selling spells, starting equipment, or any items that you craft, without DM approval.

[asnys]

OK that one is totally new to me - where on Oerth/Toril/etc. is it buried?

Very nice find.

Called an energy charge (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_energycharge&alpha).

And thanks.

[Chronikoce]

The rules for selling items are under the heading "selling loot". As far as I am aware there are no rules for selling items that you did not loot. ie, no selling spells, starting equipment, or any items that you craft, without DM approval.

What if my wizards backstory involves killing and looting a rival apprentice then selling his spellbook to gain enough funds to leave town before the authorities come after him?

[ace rooster]

What if my wizards backstory involves killing and looting a rival apprentice then selling his spellbook to gain enough funds to leave town before the authorities come after him?

So you are basically saying that your backstory says that you have more money, so you should start with more money? If you can make that fly with your DM, you should probably get a pig as a mount. If the DM ran a solo session with you beforehand then this would be fine, and grant ~300gp just like any other CR 1 encounter.

The point is that you are only guaranteed to be able to sell stuff that the DM has given you. This is rarely relevant, but means that about 95% of wealth cheese does not work RAW.


Oh, and while I'm at it, Fabricate is limited to one material, which cannot change. This means that it cannot do any crafts that require mixing, heating, cooling, hammering (if this changes the material, which it often does) or assembling items that need parts of more than one material.

[Inevitability]

So you are basically saying that your backstory says that you have more money, so you should start with more money? If you can make that fly with your DM, you should probably get a pig as a mount. If the DM ran a solo session with you beforehand then this would be fine, and grant ~300gp just like any other CR 1 encounter.

I think he means he got his spellbook (a class feature) by killing an NPC and stealing said NPC's spellbook (backstory). It's a pure case of refluffing.

[Janthkin]

Here's one I had forgotten until today: you can't Sneak Attack a creature that has Concealment, from whatever source.

[nedz]

That would make sense except for market price being affected by things with a shelf life. I allow my players to sell things at full price if they set up a market stand in a place where there may be a market for the particular item and spend the time to sell it.

In one game I allowed the PCs to make Diplomacy rolls to try and improve the prices on the market. Now this is dangerous I know, but they were all Dwarves who has dumped Cha and not invested any ranks here. When one guy got a negative result I ruled that he had talked himself into paying over the odds for one item. :smallbiggrin:


I think he means he got his spellbook (a class feature) by killing an NPC and stealing said NPC's spellbook (backstory). It's a pure case of refluffing.

I thought he was saying that he got himself an extra spell book via his backstory - just to sell for more cash. Personally I'd cancel this out with a debt or something just to balance the starting resources. Now there's nothing wrong in doing this sort of thing in game, just not before we start.

[Coidzor]

In one game I allowed the PCs to make Diplomacy rolls to try and improve the prices on the market. Now this is dangerous I know, but they were all Dwarves who has dumped Cha and not invested any ranks here. When one guy got a negative result I ruled that he had talked himself into paying over the odds for one item. :smallbiggrin:

Ever read Soul Music by Terry Pratchett?

[nedz]

Ever read Soul Music by Terry Pratchett?

Nope

12345679

[Manyasone]

Nope

12345679

Glod Glodson is your dwarf right there

[ahenobarbi]

If you claim your character is from an region of Faerun you can choose between getting extra 100gp or race & region dependent stuff (some of which is really nice: master work weapons or armor, scrolls, 300gp) you get extra known languages and additional bonus languages. It's a nice power boost for beginners adventurers.

[Chronikoce]

I thought he was saying that he got himself an extra spell book via his backstory - just to sell for more cash. Personally I'd cancel this out with a debt or something just to balance the starting resources. Now there's nothing wrong in doing this sort of thing in game, just not before we start.

I intended it to mean how I acquired my base Spellbook. So you would only start with a single Spellbook but that single Spellbook was acquired through conquest and could therefore be considered loot.

I personally wouldn't use this in any capacity other than interesting story background. I mean I don't play D&D as a merchant simulator so that Spellbook is needed so that I can go save the world on a regular basis.

[Drezius]

If you claim your character is from an region of Faerun you can choose between getting extra 100gp or race & region dependent stuff (some of which is really nice: master work weapons or armor, scrolls, 300gp) you get extra known languages and additional bonus languages. It's a nice power boost for beginners adventurers.
And +2 K(Local) [The region]

[ShurikVch]

A helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.Note: being helpless don't prevent you from making your normal Reflex save, but to use Evasion... Nope! :smallconfused:

[rrwoods]

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm --


Class-Related Languages
Clerics, druids, and wizards can choose certain languages as bonus languages even if they’re not on the lists found in the race descriptions. These class-related languages are as follows:

Cleric
Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal.

Druid
Sylvan.

Wizard
Draconic.


... Are there any non-core classes that do this?

[Thurbane]

AFB, but doesn't Dragonfire Adept and/or Dragon Shaman (possibly in errata) give Draconic as a language option? Or maybe as a bonus language, not 100% sure...

[HunterOfJello]

There's a rule for the inverse of energy drain, giving you a "positive level". As far as I know, it was never actually used by any monster.

I see it in my Monster Manual 3. I really wonder what creature was supposed to be able to give players positive levels now. Anyone know someone who worked on the book who could comment?

Similarly, the bard ability Inspire Greatness gives the party 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10). This feature seems to have been generally soft-banned from the game since I haven't seen that mechanic in any other books.


From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm --


... Are there any non-core classes that do this?

Raptoran Cleric level 1 racial substitution gives Auran as a bonus language.

[Troacctid]

AFB, but doesn't Dragonfire Adept and/or Dragon Shaman (possibly in errata) give Draconic as a language option? Or maybe as a bonus language, not 100% sure...

Dragon Shamans can choose Draconic as a bonus language regardless of their race.

[torrasque666]

Polymorph doesn't work on Undead or most Constructs as they only work on Living Creatures.

[Starbuck_II]

Polymorph doesn't work on Undead or most Constructs as they only work on Living Creatures.

Except Polymorph any object which lets you give a rock multiple HD by turning it into a manticore.

[torrasque666]

Except Polymorph any object which lets you give a rock multiple HD by turning it into a manticore.

Different target line. Probably should have rephrased as druids without a con score can't use wild shape without a feat.

[zergling.exe]

Different target line. Probably should have rephrased as druids without a con score can't use wild shape without a feat.

Well it looks like we also found that druids can share wildshape with others without any extra abilities.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Different target line. Probably should have rephrased as druids without a con score can't use wild shape without a feat.

They can. That feat does nothing. Oops.

[zergling.exe]

They can. That feat does nothing. Oops.

No, wild shape works like alternate form, which in turn works like polymorph, which has a target of "one living creature touched". Thus a druid without a Con score can't wildshape, but they can wildshape the living fighter!

[ShurikVch]

No, wild shape works like alternate form, which in turn works like polymorph, which has a target of "one living creature touched". Thus a druid without a Con score can't wildshape, but they can wildshape the living fighter!Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm):Alternate Form

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:
•The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
•The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
•The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
•The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
•The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.
•The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
•The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
•Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
•The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
•The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
•Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.Where it says it works "like polymorph"? :smallconfused:

[torrasque666]

Nope, I see the dysfunction. Errata updated it to work like Alternate form, while it originally worked like Polymorph. Hence the feat in Libris Mortis to allow for an exception.

This is what i get for posting from mobile and getting jumpy.

[zergling.exe]

Where it says it works "like polymorph"? :smallconfused:

There is an obnoxious table between the first few lines and the bulk of the changes to alternate form in the errata. Near the start they removed line 2 (which is where polymorph is mentioned), but I missed it because of that table.

edit: It is in fact the only change before that table. Precisely why I missed it.

[Bohandas]

I believe it is in the glossary of MM3+

edit: Nvm, it's not in those. I know I've seen it but can't remember where...

It's in MM3 (pg.211), but it's listed under "Energy Charge", not "Positive Level"

[ShurikVch]

Planar Domains from Spell Compendium
A planar domain counts as both of a cleric’s domain choices.It means Planar Domain can't be selected if you somehow get only one domain, such as:
Cleric who traded away one of domains
Mystic from Dragonlance
Most (if not all) of PrCs get only one domain - at least, at the same level
Extra Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#extraDomain) SDA :smallamused:
(Bonus Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#bonusDomain) [Epic] feat will work, but only if you got 2 feats at the same level)

[Drrakerr]

Most people know that Magic items are crafted at a cost of half the market value. This is correct. What is incorrect is that most people assume that this applies to mundane items as well. Bold by me for emphasis.

[QUOTE=SRD] To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.
1.Find the item’s price. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
2.Find the DC from the table below.
3.Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials.
4.Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.

If you fail a check by 4 or less, you make no progress this week.

If you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again.

Progress by the Day

You can make checks by the day instead of by the week. In this case your progress (check result × DC) is in copper pieces instead of silver pieces.

Creating Masterwork Items

You can make a masterwork item—a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.

[bahamut920]

I always forget about skill synergies, because my regular group bans them.

[InvisibleBison]

I always forget about skill synergies, because my regular group bans them.

Why do they do that? Skill synergies are neat.

[Jack_Simth]

Why do they do that? Skill synergies are neat.

It most cases, it's because they're a major diplomancer component.

[Coidzor]

It most cases, it's because they're a major diplomancer component.

Doesn't that still leave banning diplomancy, though?

[Jack_Simth]

Doesn't that still leave banning diplomancy, though?
That's also one way to go about it, yes.

[Bohandas]

Planar Domains from Spell CompendiumIt means Planar Domain can't be selected if you somehow get only one domain, such as:
Cleric who traded away one of domains
Mystic from Dragonlance
Most (if not all) of PrCs get only one domain - at least, at the same level
Extra Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#extraDomain) SDA :smallamused:
(Bonus Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#bonusDomain) [Epic] feat will work, but only if you got 2 feats at the same level)
Worth noting that the Mystic isn't meant to work with the planar domains as by that point Dragonlance had moved away from the Great Wheel cosmology

[ATHATH]

Different target line. Probably should have rephrased as druids without a con score can't use wild shape without a feat.
What is this feat?

[Jack_Simth]

What is this feat?
Largely irrelevant, as errata removed the conflict, but it's Corrupted Wild Shape, Libris Mortis page 25.

[ShurikVch]

Worth noting that the Mystic isn't meant to work with the planar domains as by that point Dragonlance had moved away from the Great Wheel cosmologyAs Dragonlance Campaign Setting says,
A mystic chooses one domain from among those available to clericsand Planar Domains are available to clerics.
And about the cosmology - they still have the Abyss, which is planar domain too

[bahamut920]

Why do they do that? Skill synergies are neat.


It most cases, it's because they're a major diplomancer component.

In our case, it's probably due to the lower-op group members simply forgetting them, or some knee-jerk reaction to big numbers. None of us would play diplomancers even if given the opportunity, and we sort of play fast and loose with the "social" skills anyways. We roll a number, the DM rolls a number (if necessary) and then decides what happens based upon the difference between our roll and the DC. No brainwashing gods with standard action skill checks by 12th level in our games. :smalltongue:

[Hecuba]

As Dragonlance Campaign Setting says,and Planar Domains are available to clerics.
And about the cosmology - they still have the Abyss, which is planar domain too
Is worth noting that Krynn Abyss != Great Wheel Abyss. The cosmology of Krynn is significantly more straightforward than the great wheel.

The Dome of Creation = heaven, Abyss = heck, Hidden Vale = neutral heaven (plus a rockin' forest for dead elves, even if they are good). That's it for the outer planes.

The inner planes are just localized spilover from energy from the outer planes - in effect, static bubbles of plane-ness. The transitive planes are lumped together into the Grey, with the Astral & Ethereal being easily navigable streams thereof.


One particularly interesting element of Krynn's Abyss is that it is the poster child for a highly morphic plane. Everything and everywhere in its infinite expanse is exactly as far away from you as you believe it is. Things hurt you as much as you believe they do (or as much as the things believe they hurt you).

[fishyfishyfishy]

I have not read the entire thread so this may have been mentioned but if a creature, such as a Vampire, turns into gas or mist it gains a +20 to hide within a similar substance.


Creatures in gaseous form attempting to hide in an area with mist, smoke, or other gas gain a +20 bonus.

Always give your Vampire Wizards Obscuring Mist so they have an easy escape.

[Telonius]

One that I forgot until I read a line in the SRD today: sleeping in armor generally fatigues you, but sleeping in light armor does not.

[The Viscount]

I have not read the entire thread so this may have been mentioned but if a creature, such as a Vampire, turns into gas or mist it gains a +20 to hide within a similar substance.



Always give your Vampire Wizards Obscuring Mist so they have an easy escape.

Fascinating! I'd never seen that one. A related one is that gaseous form doesn't actually make you incorporeal, and if you aren't a vampire it doesn't protect you too well.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Fascinating! I'd never seen that one. A related one is that gaseous form doesn't actually make you incorporeal, and if you aren't a vampire it doesn't protect you too well.

Its a quirky effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gaseousForm) for sure. Can't pass through solids or liquids, grants DR 10/magic, allows you to fly but you can't take the run action. All kinds of weirdness.

[GenericClone]

There's a rule for the inverse of energy drain, giving you a "positive level". As far as I know, it was never actually used by any monster.


I see it in my Monster Manual 3. I really wonder what creature was supposed to be able to give players positive levels now. Anyone know someone who worked on the book who could comment?

This was being discussed a bit back and I wanted to comment.

The Ravid in Monster Manual has positive energy lash which infuses a target with, you guessed it, positive energy.

Doesn't specifically say it has that effect but you could argue that it could.

[Inevitability]

This was being discussed a bit back and I wanted to comment.

The Ravid in Monster Manual has positive energy lash which infuses a target with, you guessed it, positive energy.

Doesn't specifically say it has that effect but you could argue that it could.

It specifically says living creatures only feel an unpleasant tingle.

[GenericClone]

It specifically says living creatures only feel an unpleasant tingle.

I'm aware. I'm just bringing the only creature that I can think of that might have been intended for the energy charge rule or can be used for it. The actual monster was probably cut from MM3 anyway.

[Inevitability]

A creature with no dexterity score that can still perform actions uses its intelligence score to determine its initiative score.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm aware. I'm just bringing the only creature that I can think of that might have been intended for the energy charge rule or can be used for it. The actual monster was probably cut from MM3 anyway.

Vivacious creature template (planar handbook) and one of the energons (MotP) are also positive energy plane natives.

The only place I've ever seen the positive level mechanic used is in the bastion of broken souls adventure.

[nedz]

I'm aware. I'm just bringing the only creature that I can think of that might have been intended for the energy charge rule or can be used for it. The actual monster was probably cut from MM3 anyway.
These can all be found on the PMT - so presumably can survive there.

Lumi (MM3 p098)
Energon, Xag-Ya (MotP p169)
Mercane (MotP p179)
Ravid (MM p213)
Glimmerskin (MM2 p114)
Unraveler (Planar p130)
Dire Tiger, Vivacious (Planar p132)

[Mr Adventurer]

PMT? What's that?

[Thurbane]

Don't know if it's a forgotten rule exactly, but turning undead is specifically called out as a Charisma check - so anything that aids a Charisma check (like a Marshal's auro, or circlet of persuasion) helps with turning checks.

[The Random NPC]

PMT? What's that?

I think it's referencing the Positive Energy plane, but I'm not sure.

[Troacctid]

Here's one. Any magic item can be a cursed item. In fact, there's a whole big list of miscellaneous curses that can be added to magic items. This list includes such effects as:


Character's hair grows 1 inch longer.
Character's skin color changes.
Character must change her name to Pippy P. Poopypants. (The item only works for characters of that name.)
Character either shrinks ½ inch or grows that much taller.
Character now bears an embarrassing tattoo.
Temperature around item is 10°F cooler than normal.
Item does not function on Mondays.
Item continually shouts profanity.
Item looks ridiculous (garishly colored, silly shape, glows bright pink...).

[Inevitability]

Item looks ridiculous (garishly colored, silly shape, glows bright pink...).


That reminds me of the time I gave my group's monk a dress with the effect of Bracers of Armor. He still wore it (obviously) and insisted it was a kilt whenever a NPC brought it up.

[nedz]

I think it's referencing the Positive Energy plane, but I'm not sure.

I was thinking Positive Material Plane, but forgot that they had renamed it - and I got the acronym wrong anyway.

[Bohandas]

The darkness spell only reduces light to shadowy illumination. It doesn't block ot out entirely. That's one I'd forgotten.

[Eladrinblade]

Don't know if it's a forgotten rule exactly, but turning undead is specifically called out as a Charisma check - so anything that aids a Charisma check (like a Marshal's auro, or circlet of persuasion) helps with turning checks.

That specifically is why I actually like keeping turn undead on my clerics. A sun domain cleric with improved turning, a decent charisma, 5 ranks in knowledge undead, a circlet of persuasion, and maybe a couple misc bonuses (luckstone, pale green prism ioun stone, good hope, the heirophant +4 turning ability, etc) can one-shot a lich.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That specifically is why I actually like keeping turn undead on my clerics. A sun domain cleric with improved turning, a decent charisma, 5 ranks in knowledge undead, a circlet of persuasion, and maybe a couple misc bonuses (luckstone, pale green prism ioun stone, good hope, the heirophant +4 turning ability, etc) can one-shot a lich.

You don't actually need much of a boost for that. Turning check only has a variance of -4 to +4 your turning level and you only need a 10 after modifiers to break even, so unless you have negative charisma or the target has significantly more HD than you you're likely to succeed pretty much automatically. Sun Domain is doing most of the work here on its own for undead that have HD similar to yours (like liches or anything with character levels). Even cleric level +4 is only a turning check of 22, so you don't need that many boosts to reach it.

Improving Turning Level is generally a more effective purchase if all you care about is turning, since most non-templated undead have a lot of HD for their CR so even (your cleric level +4) isn't enough to affect them without boosts. If you stack enough of it (you can get around +20 or so easily enough, and it's not that expensive) you can easily destroy a lot of undead even without using the Sun domain power and save that for the big ones.

[rel]

'Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals'
In of all places the handle animal skill.
So by a certain reading, as an unnatural aberration the party elan will never be attacked by wild animals.

[Sliver]

'Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals'
In of all places the handle animal skill.
So by a certain reading, as an unnatural aberration the party elan will never be attacked by wild animals.

Key word: Normally.