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[Albions_Angel]

EDIT: OK, so the forums are getting weird again and seem to be thinking that D&D needs to be an accurate social comentary. When I say it does europe well, I mean it includes a lot of european themed material, and most worlds using this material will end up looking like some part of Meadieval Europe. I am not looking for accurate representations of every culture on the face of the planet. I am not looking to restage the trail of tears, with the Natives in control this time. I am not trying to teach white players a lesson. I am not looking to tear down stereotypes. What I am looking for are ways to have Mulan and St George be followers of the god Coyote and go hunting Oni and Demons and Skinwalkers with Tonto and Gimli while being attacked by dragons and lions and dropbears and the Tuatha De Dannan. I like my Irish with red hair, my nords all blond and blue eyed, my native americans distinctly feathery and my elves with pointy ears. Why? Because its fun to not be serious all the time, or to display different cultures in different parts of my worlds in nice little snapshots. And eventually I get bored of guys in plate mail beating each other over the head with greatswords and sometimes you just want to play a monk who is a little old man in an orange robe that sweeps the floor and says OM a lot. I mean come on guys. This is ridiculous. You dont have to reply to the thread if you dont want to.

Hi all

So, question for you.

We all know 3.5e does Europe very well, and has lots of fluff for the Orient, the middle east gets a look in, and even India gets some nice stuff. It doesnt take a lot to make things thematically African either.

But I know of only one class/monster/race that is Native North American. The Spirit Shaman, which is very Mongolian, is also very, very "Indian". And that I like.

But is there anything else? A little known splat book? An edition of Dragon Mag? A collection of 3rd party monsters? I would appreciate anything.

[ComaVision]

There's a Wendigo template in Fiend Folio.

[Zaq]

Hmm. I'd tread cautiously with this. Native North American mythology and belief systems are really varied. There's a lot of different peoples there (it's a bloody huge continent, after all), and since it's not generally very well studied by the kinds of folks who design D&D material, you're likely to end up with a cartoonish caricature at best and outright cultural appropriation at worst.

(This isn't unique to Native North American stuff, of course. 95% of the default flavor of the "oriental" material is cringeworthy. But I feel like there's a much smaller chance of this going well and a much higher chance of it going poorly than with a lot of the other folklore D&D cribs from, primarily because the source material tends to be less well-understood and less well-respected by the dominant culture from which most D&D devs hail.)

[Albions_Angel]

Hmm. I'd tread cautiously with this. Native North American mythology and belief systems are really varied. There's a lot of different peoples there (it's a bloody huge continent, after all), and since it's not generally very well studied by the kinds of folks who design D&D material, you're likely to end up with a cartoonish caricature at best and outright cultural appropriation at worst.

Woah, hold up.

I get that it hugely varied. I know that great lakes mythology (wendigo) is vastly different from the spirits of the south (Coyote the Trixster and the Skinwalkers). And these are again different from the peoples of the Great Plains.

When has that EVER stopped D&D? When has a random shushing together of cultures ever been a problem? Im not sending PCs to go and destroy the "redskins" or bring them to Jesus. For crying out loud, look at Druids! Want to talk about butchering a culture. D&D druids are bastardizations of a victorian idea which itself is a huge bastardization of an actual pre-roman religion.

The whole of european culture is condensed into a tiny stereotype, smushing all the peoples and religions together with no regard for their origins or variations.

And as a European, as a Briton, someone with a lot of old Celtic blood, I dont care. Why? Is it because you are allowed to offend a white european but not any other race? No. Its because D&D isnt real. Its a caricature game. Its a comic book played out in the mind. Its just a bit of fun.

I was just looking for pre-written, non-homebrew statblocks for races, monsters and classes that fit in with the COMMON THEMES of Native North American cultures. Dont tell me there arnt common themes. There are. In the same way that Europe has common themes, and so does the middle east, and China/Japan, and the Indian subcontinent.

Next week I may ask about Australia, or South and Central America.

If my DM or Players arnt happy with what I do, they can talk to me, but when I ask the forums for just some advice, I dont expect moral judgement.

[Flickerdart]

We all know 3.5e does Europe very well
Does it really? There's much more to European legends than Nordic mythologies and the matters of Britain, France, and Rome. Even the vampire is just Dracula with the serial numbers filed off, rather than being inspired by the original Slavic roots.

[Albions_Angel]

Does it really? There's much more to European legends than Nordic mythologies and the matters of Britain, France, and Rome. Even the vampire is just Dracula with the serial numbers filed off, rather than being inspired by the original Slavic roots.

Just stop. You knew damn well that I meant "In quantity of material". And you know that stereotypes are often good enough for getting a theme or message across. What did you honestly expect to gain from saying what you did? If you want the thread to die, just dont reply and it will sink to the bottom and be forgotten.

[Vaz]

You should probably stop being so snappy. You didn't presage your request very well at all. Rather than simply saying 'Hey guys I want to run a North American wilderness campaign, using as much mythological content as possible, how would I go about it, and what classes can I use and what refluffing should there be?

Skinwalkers, use a Champion of the Wild Wildshape Ranger, for example.

Spirit Shaman seems fitting, Wendigo template etc.

Many don't really care about the racial stereotyping, or gender stereotyping on this forum. Buxom wench, Orc Berserker, Fragile aged elf wizard are rather large tropes, gnome slaves, or 'always Chaotic evil' alignments, and we're mostly adult enough to ignore it if it affects us.

Insstead, you generalized and passive aggressively insulted the need forums and peoples intelligence, and now 'we know damn well what you meant'. It's not conducive to getting help in the manner you want.

Perhaps you shoukd ask the thread closed, go for a walk, chill out and post a new thread rephrased.

[Albions_Angel]

You are right Vaz. I got snappy. I apologize. Its no excuse, but its annoying when you see the forum, as you say, perfectly at home with racial and gender stereotypes, only to have the second response on a thread about Native Americans boil down to basically "It wont work, you will offend someone, dont be stupid, you cant stereotype such a large region into one thing and have it work in D&D" and the third be "D&D stereotypes europe into a tiny subset despite such large cultures, dont be stupid in completely the opposite way to the previous guy".

Frankly if a mod wants to close the thread, fine. The whole thing has soured for me now. Message recieved loud and clear as far as I am concerned. Dont play native american anything because everyone is hyper jumpy about it.