If you rolled all 18s...

[BootStrapTommy]

So you are playing with a somewhat liberal, old school DM. As you begin to build a character, the DM hands you 3d6 and tells you, and the other players, to roll stats. The excitement builds for you with each successive roll. You've achieved that less-than-once-in-a-lifetime dream of six 18s!

I'm not looking for people to babble about why point buy or stat arrays are better. I'm not looking for a discussion on stupid things like "fairness". This is a thought experiment. I have a simple question: if you had six 18s, what would you build?

One of the banes of multiclassing is MAD. But with six 18s, MAD is the least of your concerns. So what lovely, otherwise impractical build might you pursue with such a blessing?

[gfishfunk]

Take 1 level of each level successively in alphabetical order until hitting 20.

Barbarian 2 / Bard 2 / Cleric 2 / Fighter 2 / Monk 2 / Paladin 2 / Ranger 2 / Rogue 2 / Sorcerer 2 / Warlock 1 / Wizard 1

[treecko]

A monk/wizard mulitclass. I love the idea behind it, a scholarly fellow who contemplates the meaning of magic while also honing his body to be the epidome of physical and magical ability. But in practice, it sucks. It needs 4 high stats to work well, and even then suffers from the fact that neither wizard nor monk works well in a multiclass. But, with high enough stats it just might be able to work by sheer power.

[Captbrannigan]

Bard-barian Monk.

Err, I need a splash of INT synergy... start as a rogue for the +8 vs traps I guess.

[AstralFire]

I don't think it'd really change anything for me except that I'd have characters switch between sword and bow a lot more situationally.

[Belac93]

Either what the above said (although probably warlock 2), or monk 1, Bladesinger 19.

By the last level I could have 32 AC with disadvantage to hit (10 + haste, foresight, shield, dexterity, wisdom, intelligence), proficiency in all saving throws, and 164 hit points. 204 if I was willing to get rid of a saving throw proficiency and take tough instead.

[Talamare]

Definitely 6 levels into Paladin
+8 to all saves before proficiency? Hell yes
+9 after 1 ASI (or perhaps Racial bonus)

actually speaking of Racial, gnome advantage to mental saves is probably the strongest benefit
2 levels of Bard for Trading Jacks might be pretty awesome too
You won't have a single skill you're poor at

[Arkhios]

Standard Human would get 19 in all stats.
As a Monk, he could use 3 of his ASI's to bump all to 20, and would even get 2 feats as a bonus.

Or, even better: Monk 14/Paladin 6 = crazy saves all over. What else do you need? :D

[Spiritchaser]

Paladin 6 monk 14... Conceptually not hard, mechanically impossible... Unless you had a mitfull of 18s.

Bladesinger 18-19 monk 1-2. Just an unarmored bladesinger

Vengence or oathbreaker Paladin/fighter/Mystic... Because straight Vengence paladins don't nova hard enough.

A Blind Monk 14 mystic 6

[BootStrapTommy]

Or, even better: Monk 14/Paladin 6 = crazy saves all over. What else do you need? :DVariant Human Paladin. +1 Cha, +1 Con, Resilient (Con). Max out Cha, Dex, and Wis.

Charisma: Aura of Protection. So long as you are conscious, your minimum save is +9. Max +15. You are a tank against spells.

Constitution: d10 + 5 hit points is nice. Con is a common save. Also good for concentration.

Dexterity: Your offensive stat for use with rapier. Dex is also a common save. Shield Master makes up for the fact that Resilient is a one time thing. Plus +2 AC and increased offense.

Fullplate and a shield grants 20+AC with good hit points. Basically the ultimate tank (especial if Ancients due to the spell resistance).

Not sure what the monk does to improve that?


Bladesinger 18-19 monk 1-2. Just an unarmored bladesinger
Either what the above said (although probably warlock 2), or monk 1, Bladesinger 19.

By the last level I could have 32 AC with disadvantage to hit (10 + haste, foresight, shield, dexterity, wisdom, intelligence), proficiency in all saving throws, and 164 hit points. 204 if I was willing to get rid of a saving throw proficiency and take tough instead. I regret to inform you both that Unarmored Defense and Bladesong do not stack.

If they did Barbarian would be better though.

[bardo]

"Nobody cares about your 18s. The party needs a healer. You're playing a healer."

I'd play a Ranger so my insanely high stats (1 in 100 trillion I believe?) don't cast a shadow over other party members.

Bardo.

[joaber]

i would be a archer fighter that's only need dex.




I regret to inform you both that Unarmored Defense and Bladesong do not stack.

If they did Barbarian would be better though.

Bladesong stack with everything is "bonus to AC", way different than unarmored defense.

[AstralFire]

1 in 101,559,956,668,416
101 trillion, given the stat generation method on the first post.

With the popular 4d6 drop one method
1 in 55,323,533,773
55 billion.

With the also popular 4d6 drop one reroll ones method
1 in 2,469,372,321
a mere 2 billion!

[Sir cryosin]

I'd go battle master fighter. Then go feat crazy. I'll probably go gnome for gnome cunning. May be one lv of tempest cleric for thunderous rebuke.

[Spiritchaser]

"Nobody cares about your 18s. The party needs a healer. You're playing a healer.

Paladin wizard then!

[Grey Watcher]

I dunno what I'd build, but this is a neat article showing just how unlikely a situation this is: http://anydice.com/articles/4d6-drop-lowest/

Unfortunately, any dice rounds things to hundreths-of-a-percent, which means it rounds the chances of getting 4, 5, or 6 18's down to zero. :smalltongue:

[BootStrapTommy]

Bladesong stack with everything is "bonus to AC", way different than unarmored defense. I stand corrected. Would still prefer Barb for one handed d8 and shields. The added Str requirement is obviously a nonissue.


1 in 101,559,956,668,416
101 trillion, given the stat generation method on the first post.

With the popular 4d6 drop one method
1 in 55,323,533,773
55 billion.

With the also popular 4d6 drop one reroll ones method
1 in 2,469,372,321
a mere 2 billion!
I dunno what I'd build, but this is a neat article showing just how unlikely a situation this is: http://anydice.com/articles/4d6-drop-lowest/

Unfortunately, any dice rounds things to hundreths-of-a-percent, which means it rounds the chances of getting 4, 5, or 6 18's down to zero. :smalltongue:
I've personally witnessed it twice.

[Talamare]

gnome - advantage to int,wis,cha saves
Paladin 6 - +8~9 on all saves
Barbarian 3 - 18~20 AC, Resistance to nearly all damage, advantage to dex saves
Wizard 2 - Bladesong +4~5 AC

[BootStrapTommy]

gnome - advantage to int,wis,cha saves
Paladin 6 - +8~9 on all saves
Barbarian 3 - 18~20 AC, Resistance to nearly all damage, advantage to dex saves
Wizard 2 - Bladesong +4~5 ACThat's basically the epitome of MAD. Every stat is important in that build. Brilliant!

[N810]

BARBARIAN/BARD/MONK
(for crazy unarmored build)

[eastmabl]

Half elf bard skill monkey. The Charisma bump gets me a 20 in my key stat, and with two +1 bonuses to Dex and Con, I'd only need one ASI to max my primary and secondary stats.

With ability score bonuses of +5 to key stats, my bonuses to my skills with Expertise would start around +9 and cap out at +17. With Jack of All Trades, all of my skills will be at/around +5 and keep climbing as well.

Since I only require one ASI to set my abilities, I would also go hog wild on feats.

[joaber]

bladesong 2
pali 6
moon druid 10 would be new to.

at first you need to be elf to bladesing

[BootStrapTommy]

BARBARIAN/BARD/MONK
(for crazy unarmored build)While I was wrong earlier with the Bladesinger, I am correct now in pointing out that the two forms of Unarmored Defense don't stack, lest BladesingerX/Barbarian1/Monk1's 30AC and spell casting would be preferable.


at first you need to be elf to bladesingNo. That requirement is listed as optional and campaign setting specific.

[Shining Wrath]

Oh, just for giggles and grins, let's pretend this can happen.

Start out with 3 levels of half-elf Lore bard. Charisma is 20, two others are 19 (Dex and Con). Proficient in 9 skills, half proficient in all the others.
Then 6 levels of Paladin, probably OoA for elven flavor, to get the oft-discussed bumps to saves, some utility spells / smites, Find Steed, et cetera.
After that a Champion Fighter who specializes in archery, get Con up to 20 with Resilient Feat, get Dex up to 20 with an ASI. Take Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, and just wreck people with ranged fire while you mock their feeble efforts to harm you.

[PoeticDwarf]

I'd play a character I still want to play. The Snakelord. Warlock 3 / Ranger 11 /Druid 6 or Rogue 6

[joaber]

No. That requirement is listed as optional and campaign setting specific.

No, the restriction is the rule, the option is don't use it. As the text say: "Your DM can lift this restriction to better suit the campaign."

That's why I said "at first..."

[Arkhios]

I thought it would be so obvious I wouldn't need to make detailed sketch of it... I guess I was mistaken.

Standard Human (+1 to str, dex, con, int, wis, AND cha) = STR 19, DEX 19, CON 19, INT 19, WIS 19, CHA 19

Monk 14: Diamond Soul (proficiency in ALL saving throws)

Paladin 6: Aura of Protection (charisma on top of ALL saving throws)

Spend 3 out of 4 available Ability Score Improvements as follows (not necessarily these pairings, just an example):
1st) +1 str, +1 dex
2nd) +1 con, +1 int
3rd) +1 wis, +1 cha
to end up with 20 in ALL stats.

Then, with 4th ASI (or 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd, doesn't matter), pick whatever feat you like.

In the end, you'll have whopping +16 in EACH saving throw, AC of 20 without a single piece of armor. That's amazingly well.

You'll have 1d8 for unarmed (or any monk weapon if you wish), which isn't bad. However, you could just as well swing a two-handed martial weapon and still enjoy from Flurry of Blows etc. (you could even take Great Weapon Master as your extra feat!)

210 hp should be more than enough. (what does a mere +14 hp weigh on top of that? Nothing!)
Of course, if you're afraid of your hit points, take Tough for +40 hp.

You'll have +5 initiative (+10 if you take Alert), which is quite a lot, in fact.

Sure, you have only 2nd level paladin spells, so you won't have bigger than +3d8 smites. well, so what? I'd use the slots for something better, like buffs. And, you're more of a monk anyway. You'll get lot of attacks each turn.

What else... Oh, you're immune to disease and poison. And Evasive.

[fishdad]

I think that this thought experiment shows how balanced and playable 5e really is. Of the characters posted so far you really are only taking advantage of the "all 18's" to get the extra unarmored defense, proficient in multiple spell casting types, great saving throws and skills. These characters could conceivably be built even without all 18's and still be good characters, just not optimized.

Anyway,

I like the the idea of stuff that is not put together often: so I would go Knowledge Cleric with Abjuration Wizard. Not sure the levels, maybe just one of Cleric. Maybe splash 3 levels of Lore Bard.

Or

Warlock, Druid, Barbarian

Fun to think about.

[Spiritchaser]

Monk 14: Diamond Soul (proficiency in ALL saving throws)

Paladin 6: Aura of Protection (charisma on top of ALL... ...you'll have whopping +16 in EACH saving throw, AC of 20 without a single piece of armor.

Quite a few votes for something like this for the raw durability of it (including mine)

I'd be interested to know what oaths/traditions people would take?

[MaxWilson]

So you are playing with a somewhat liberal, old school DM. As you begin to build a character, the DM hands you 3d6 and tells you, and the other players, to roll stats. The excitement builds for you with each successive roll. You've achieved that less-than-once-in-a-lifetime dream of six 18s!

I'm not looking for people to babble about why point buy or stat arrays are better. I'm not looking for a discussion on stupid things like "fairness". This is a thought experiment. I have a simple question: if you had six 18s, what would you build?

One of the banes of multiclassing is MAD. But with six 18s, MAD is the least of your concerns. So what lovely, otherwise impractical build might you pursue with such a blessing?

Regular (non-variant) human: Barbarian 1/Fiendlock 1/Bladesinger 18. Feats: Mobile, Int +1/Dex+1, Lucky, Resilient (Wis). Two rages per day and Con save proficiency; temp HP per kill + Armor of Agathys spam; AC 22 by level 4; eventual AC 29 (w/Shield) plus Song of Defense/Absorb Elements/etc. Still a full caster with True Polymorph/Wish/Simulacrum/Planar Binding/etc.

I won't be as good of a fighter as a real fighter, but I'll be quite good; I won't be as good of a wizard as a real wizard, but I'll be quite good; I won't be as sneaky as a real thief, but I'll be quite good (especially once you factor in Haste for pseudo-Cunning Action; I'm not normally a fan of Haste but with my Dex 20 and the right visibility conditions this could still be hilarious).

[Arkhios]

Quite a few votes for something like this for the raw durability of it (including mine)

I'd be interested to know what oaths/traditions people would take?

No idea about the oath, but Way of the Four Elements might be cool :)

[gfishfunk]

1 in 101,559,956,668,416
101 trillion, given the stat generation method on the first post.

With the popular 4d6 drop one method
1 in 55,323,533,773
55 billion.

With the also popular 4d6 drop one reroll ones method
1 in 2,469,372,321
a mere 2 billion!

So you're saying there is a chance!

[Socratov]

As someone who got his hands on a 16-18-18-12-13-17 I'd say make a pact of the blade warlock. (I made mine a silver Dragonborn form the desert). Nothing says fun like pretending to be a spellcaster when you're actually a decent frontlinerlaughing at the plebs thinking they got anything on you...

[Oramac]

I'd probably do something silly, like a Gnome Barbarian/Wizard.

[Spiritchaser]

No idea about the oath, but Way of the Four Elements might be cool :)

Would be good for the hold if nothing else...

Fireball is expensive but on the plus side you could wade in, cast in yourself and evade it...

[Citan]

So you are playing with a somewhat liberal, old school DM. As you begin to build a character, the DM hands you 3d6 and tells you, and the other players, to roll stats. The excitement builds for you with each successive roll. You've achieved that less-than-once-in-a-lifetime dream of six 18s!

I'm not looking for people to babble about why point buy or stat arrays are better. I'm not looking for a discussion on stupid things like "fairness". This is a thought experiment. I have a simple question: if you had six 18s, what would you build?

One of the banes of multiclassing is MAD. But with six 18s, MAD is the least of your concerns. So what lovely, otherwise impractical build might you pursue with such a blessing?
Hmm, many ideas. :)
One would be obviously my Master of Cantrips (get every caster to learn max number of cantrips).

Another one would be the GREAT MAD TANK ;)

Fighter 3 Battlemaster: for Mariner Fighting Style, Second Wind and Action Surge, as well as Manoeuvers (Parry, Evasive Footwork).
Bladesinger Wizard 2. for +INT to AC.
Ancients Paladin 7 for Defense Fighting Style, +CHA to save, Magic Resistance.
Shadow Sorcerer 5 for CON save against 0hp + Darkness as well as Mirror Image / Blur and Haste.
Way of the Long Death Monk 3 for THP on kill.

Did not give time to think about how useful or useless this would be in terms of offense in actual fight, but my guess is... Not useless?
Very probably not the BEST tank, but I felt compelled to use all stats and as many classes as possible so... ;)


Otherwise, obviously, The One Who Burned Like Hell.

Undying Warlock 1.
Draconic Sorcerer (Fire) 6.
Evocation Wizard 13.
With obviously GFB as a cantrip of choice for melee, Firebolt at range.
Take GWM, Moderately Armored (mainly for +1 STR) and Weapon Master (actually the first time ever I consider it ^^) to max STR and get proficiency to hit for 1d10+5 (STR) +10 (GWM) + 4 (Warlock) + 4 (Wizard) + 4 (Sorcerer) + 3d8 (GFB damage) with your Green Flame Blade cantrip.
Not too shabby for a caster, ;) while still being able to drop a Delayed Blast Fireball. You even have space for Elemental Adept if you don't want to use Elemental Bane for resistant enemies.

OR just maximize your melee by dropping Wizard to 10 and get Paladin Devotion 3, bringing all required proficiencies, +CHA to hit and fire smite spell (meaning you just need GWM, you can max CHA with another feat and still have 2 feats for Polearm Master and Sentinel or Elemental Adept).
Enter... The Hellish Guardian! ;)


Standard Human would get 19 in all stats.
As a Monk, he could use 3 of his ASI's to bump all to 20, and would even get 2 feats as a bonus.

Or, even better: Monk 14/Paladin 6 = crazy saves all over. What else do you need? :D
Indeed, an obvious choice, especially with the Way of the Long Death's lvl 11 feature.
One could debate though over which build would be the most resilient between this one and the following.
Way of the Long Death Monk 12.
Shadow Sorcerer 1.
Ancient Paladin 7.
With 4 feats, take Tough, Resilient (CON), Defensive Duelist, Lucky.
Good luck trying to bring this one down... XD

First, try to damage him good with high AC, Shield and magic resistance, together with free THP on kill.
Your character still got dropped to 0 HP?
First, Strength of the Grave. It's free. You couldn't because of critical hit? Well, you're Lucky.
You failed your contest?
Well, just spend a ki point and you're back!

We could call him... the Sring! :)

[eastmabl]

No. That requirement is listed as optional and campaign setting specific.

As presented in the book, the requirement is fixed as RAW to elf or half-elf. Your DM can lift this requirement to suit the setting or his whims, but this wiggle room doesn't change the requirement as written.

By lifting the elf blood requirement, it becomes a house rule. The book recommends it as a possible house rule, but a good chunk of the DMG is filled with similar house rules.

[RickAllison]

As presented in the book, the requirement is fixed as RAW to elf or half-elf. Your DM can lift this requirement to suit the setting or his whims, but this wiggle room doesn't change the requirement as written.

By lifting the elf blood requirement, it becomes a house rule. The book recommends it as a possible house rule, but a good chunk of the DMG is filled with similar house rules.

I agree with you that the basic ruling is the restriction and the variant is the exception. I disagree solely on the terminology. If the rules are contained within the official materials, it is not a houserule, it is a variant rule (like feats, multi-classing, etc.). The main difference is that one is approved and included by WotC, rather than something created and implemented by the DM or a third party.

[BootStrapTommy]

As presented in the book, the requirement is fixed as RAW to elf or half-elf. Your DM can lift this requirement to suit the setting or his whims, but this wiggle room doesn't change the requirement as written.

By lifting the elf blood requirement, it becomes a house rule. The book recommends it as a possible house rule, but a good chunk of the DMG is filled with similar house rules. Yes, and so are Feats and the Variant Human. Your point?


Your DM can lift this restriction to better suit the campaign.This is directly in the rules under the Restriction. It's not an invitation to house rules, it's a statement Variant rules.

[Mara]

Vhuman bladelock (+1 con cha)

Medium armor prof, heavy armor prof, Actor, Resilient (con), Warcaster, Mounted Combat.

[gullveig]

standard human champion fighter without feats... I'm awesome anyway.

I don't need no fancy class, b**tch!

[Sigreid]

So you're saying there is a chance!

Given the number of players over the number of years, I'd wager it's happened more than once.

[BootStrapTommy]

Given the number of players over the number of years, I'd wager it's happened more than once. The thing about probability is that it never withstands encounters with reality.

[Grey Watcher]

I'd probably go for a Saving Throw build. Just because the opportunity to pump all six saves to the max isn't likely to come around again.

[Laserlight]

I have a simple question: if you had six 18s, what would you build?


I came close to that, back in AD&D days, and figured that stats like that were meant to be a paladin.

[Christian]

Given the number of players over the number of years, I'd wager it's happened more than once.

On 3d6 6 times? No, it never has. And I don't care how many people say they've seen it happen. A Fermi estimate of the total number of dice rolls in the history of humans rolling dice tells me that it's unlikely that it's ever happened that someone rolled 18 6's in a row. It might conceivably have happened once, but even then the odds are virtually zero that anybody I've ever spoken to or chatted with on the internet happened to be there that day, which was probably centuries ago.

(I know someone who's seen it happen. I wasn't there, but I also know the other people in the gaming group involved. One of them has a prankish personality and owns a set of loaded 6-siders that always roll 6's. Just sayin': what you saw isn't always what you think you saw.)

[Spacehamster]

11 Oath breaker, 6 necromancer, 3 hunter ranger for a hard hitting, High saves guy with super strong undead minions, 2-4 attacks depending on if you get use of horde breaker or use bonus action to command minions or not. Your attacks will be +10 damage on top of any dice and your minions will hit pretty hard too.

And you get more spell slots then a normal full paladin. :)

[PoeticDwarf]

I thought it would be so obvious I wouldn't need to make detailed sketch of it... I guess I was mistaken.

Standard Human (+1 to str, dex, con, int, wis, AND cha) = STR 19, DEX 19, CON 19, INT 19, WIS 19, CHA 19

Monk 14: Diamond Soul (proficiency in ALL saving throws)

Paladin 6: Aura of Protection (charisma on top of ALL saving throws)

Spend 3 out of 4 available Ability Score Improvements as follows (not necessarily these pairings, just an example):
1st) +1 str, +1 dex
2nd) +1 con, +1 int
3rd) +1 wis, +1 cha
to end up with 20 in ALL stats.

Then, with 4th ASI (or 1st, or 2nd, or 3rd, doesn't matter), pick whatever feat you like.

In the end, you'll have whopping +16 in EACH saving throw, AC of 20 without a single piece of armor. That's amazingly well.

You'll have 1d8 for unarmed (or any monk weapon if you wish), which isn't bad. However, you could just as well swing a two-handed martial weapon and still enjoy from Flurry of Blows etc. (you could even take Great Weapon Master as your extra feat!)

210 hp should be more than enough. (what does a mere +14 hp weigh on top of that? Nothing!)
Of course, if you're afraid of your hit points, take Tough for +40 hp.

You'll have +5 initiative (+10 if you take Alert), which is quite a lot, in fact.

Sure, you have only 2nd level paladin spells, so you won't have bigger than +3d8 smites. well, so what? I'd use the slots for something better, like buffs. And, you're more of a monk anyway. You'll get lot of attacks each turn.

What else... Oh, you're immune to disease and poison. And Evasive.

How can you get a two handed martial weapon as a greatsword and still use flurry of blows?

[RickAllison]

How can you get a two handed martial weapon as a greatsword and still use flurry of blows?

Just checked, the only requirement to use Flurry of Blows is the Attack action. The kicker is that all of the benefits from Martial Arts would no longer apply (so the damage is 1 and can't use Dex) so it might not be a great option...

EDIT: So with that specific build, he could greatsword attack, then follow it up with FoB to deal guaranteed 12 DPR if they hit. If he wanted to go full nova, he could Smite with it as well. With Open Hand, he could also knock enemies prone for a little battlefield control.

[Citan]

I thought it would be so obvious I wouldn't need to make detailed sketch of it... I guess I was mistaken.

Standard Human (+1 to str, dex, con, int, wis, AND cha) = STR 19, DEX 19, CON 19, INT 19, WIS 19, CHA 19

Monk 14: Diamond Soul (proficiency in ALL saving throws)

Paladin 6: Aura of Protection (charisma on top of ALL saving throws)

Spend 3 out of 4 available Ability Score Improvements as follows (not necessarily these pairings, just an example):
1st) +1 str, +1 dex
2nd) +1 con, +1 int
3rd) +1 wis, +1 cha
to end up with 20 in ALL stats.

In the end, you'll have whopping +16 in EACH saving throw, AC of 20 without a single piece of armor. That's amazingly well.

You could also add that with such a build, you're pretty sure to maintain concentration so you could safely keep a Bless, Hunter's Mark or whatever else without sweating, meaning you actually get pretty decent damage (too bad Divine Favor needs a weapon).

Vengeance Paladin + Way of the Long Death Monk seems pretty coherent fluff-wise and pretty dangerous for any BBEG.:smallbiggrin:

[RickAllison]

You could also add that with such a build, you're pretty sure to maintain concentration so you could safely keep a Bless, Hunter's Mark or whatever else without sweating, meaning you actually get pretty decent damage (too bad Divine Favor needs a weapon).

Vengeance Paladin + Way of the Long Death Monk seems pretty coherent fluff-wise and pretty dangerous for any BBEG.:smallbiggrin:

I can just see him against Tiamat now.
"Fire Breath!"
"Dodged it completely!"
"Poison Breath!"
"Immune!"
"Bite?"
"That goes through."
"Yay!"
"My monk returns to 1 HP."
"........"

[Spiritchaser]

You could also add that with such a build, you're pretty sure to maintain concentration so you could safely keep a Bless, Hunter's Mark or whatever else without sweating, meaning you actually get pretty decent damage (too bad Divine Favor needs a weapon).

Vengeance Paladin + Way of the Long Death Monk seems pretty coherent fluff-wise and pretty dangerous for any BBEG.:smallbiggrin:

I guess the real downside for these guys is that you get your aura at Paladin 6, and diamond soul at 14... You're really only mostly invulnerable at level 20.

It's one check of a capstone, but it is a capstone.

[Citan]

I guess the real downside for these guys is that you get your aura at Paladin 6, and diamond soul at 14... You're really only mostly invulnerable at level 20.

It's one check of a capstone, but it is a capstone.
Very true unfortunately, but as you stressed it, it makes it a "capstone" of sort that crushes most of every pure class capstones.

I'd say it's worth it if you survive this long. :smallbiggrin:

(I'm now VERY tempted to keep such a build in a corner of my mind, as a nemesis for a future campaign XD. You'd have to get crafty with "environmental" spells or bring Lucky+BI+Diviner altogether to try and bring him down).

[themaque]

I dunno what I'd build, but this is a neat article showing just how unlikely a situation this is: http://anydice.com/articles/4d6-drop-lowest/

Unfortunately, any dice rounds things to hundreths-of-a-percent, which means it rounds the chances of getting 4, 5, or 6 18's down to zero. :smalltongue:

I came close enough once. 5 18's and 16. It was Pathfinder so I ended up with straight 18's.

I ended up playing a Bard. I figured he was so naturally good at EVERYTHING he never really tried at ANYTHING. So he became a dilettante of nearly everything.

I would probably do the same thing as he was a fun build.

[RickAllison]

Don't know if its been stated yet, but Rogue 11/Bard 3/Cleric (Knowledge) 1. Half-elf, just load up on the extra skills and Expertise. If it goes into epic levels, grab the Boon of Skill Proficiency and get a minimum of 22 for every ability check in the game (barring initiative, which is weird). Eight skills have minimum rolls of 28. Go from being a Jack to a Master of All Trades!

[Arkhios]

Just checked, the only requirement to use Flurry of Blows is the Attack action. The kicker is that all of the benefits from Martial Arts would no longer apply (so the damage is 1 and can't use Dex) so it might not be a great option...

EDIT: So with that specific build, he could greatsword attack, then follow it up with FoB to deal guaranteed 12 DPR if they hit. If he wanted to go full nova, he could Smite with it as well. With Open Hand, he could also knock enemies prone for a little battlefield control.

Eh, well.... I may have made a "slight" oversight with Martial Arts. Re-reading it I saw what I hadn't previously noticed. I read at first that you'd lose Martial Arts features only when wearing armor or shield, not when wielding a weapon other than monk weapon, too.

So, yeah, might not indeed be best idea to swing a greatsword as a monk.

[RickAllison]

Eh, well.... I may have made a "slight" oversight with Martial Arts. Re-reading it I saw what I hadn't previously noticed. I read at first that you'd lose Martial Arts features only when wearing armor or shield, not when wielding a weapon other than monk weapon, too.

So, yeah, might not indeed be best idea to swing a greatsword as a monk.

No... With more paladin and less monk, it could work, if not optimally, for nova damage. With Improved Divine Smite on all three attacks, it can get around 100 DPR for short bursts. Not fantastic, but it could tank lesser challenges and deal massive damage those few rounds where a big enemy got a little too comfortable with him there.

[Arkhios]

No... With more paladin and less monk, it could work, if not optimally, for nova damage. With Improved Divine Smite on all three attacks, it can get around 100 DPR for short bursts. Not fantastic, but it could tank lesser challenges and deal massive damage those few rounds where a big enemy got a little too comfortable with him there.

Hmm, yeah, that could work. In fact, a monk wearing armor could still use its Ki abilities no problem. Which would make a Monk 7+ a compelling "dip" for just about any "tank". Especially with Dodge as a bonus action.

[bardo]

Given the number of players over the number of years, I'd wager it's happened more than once.

Only if the DM lets the players roll with their "favorite" d6.

Let's say a new D&D character is rolled every 1 second (for comparison, 4 babies are born every second). D&D is 42 years old, which is about 1.3 billion seconds, so let's say 1.3 billion characters have been rolled. Let's say they were all rolled using 4d6 drop one and reroll ones.

I'm just exaggerating everything way way up. Even under those unrealistically favorable conditions, there's still a 59% chance that nobody has ever rolled all 18s on the face of the planet*.

All the more reason to be grant gfishfunk inspiration for making such an uplifting comment.

Bardo.

* using AstralFire's odds of 1 in 2,469,372,321. Probability is (odds minus 1 over odds) to the power of 1.3 billion.

(edit: formatting)

[MaxWilson]

Eh, well.... I may have made a "slight" oversight with Martial Arts. Re-reading it I saw what I hadn't previously noticed. I read at first that you'd lose Martial Arts features only when wearing armor or shield, not when wielding a weapon other than monk weapon, too.

So, yeah, might not indeed be best idea to swing a greatsword as a monk.

Technically I believe you could make your two greatsword attacks, drop the greatsword, and then Flurry of Blows with ki. IIRC Flurry of Blows doesn't restrict your weapon choice anyway, like Martial Arts does, but if you don't drop the greatsword your flurry will be Str-based and you won't get to use monk damage dice, just the regular unarmed 1-damage-per-hit.

It depends on how your DM reads "immediately after" though. If he won't let you drop the greatsword between your regular attacks and Flurry of Blows, you'll have to drop it after your first attack instead.

So yeah, it's really too much bother to be worth the extra damage.

[RickAllison]

Technically I believe you could make your two greatsword attacks, drop the greatsword, and then Flurry of Blows with ki. IIRC Flurry of Blows doesn't restrict your weapon choice anyway, like Martial Arts does, but if you don't drop the greatsword your flurry will be Str-based and you won't get to use monk damage dice, just the regular unarmed 1-damage-per-hit.

It depends on how your DM reads "immediately after" though. If he won't let you drop the greatsword between your regular attacks and Flurry of Blows, you'll have to drop it after your first attack instead.

So yeah, it's really too much bother to be worth the extra damage.

The "immediately after" clause means that you have decide to invoke the power. So you can't attack, run away and get surprised, and then decide to use FoB. However, if you attacked, invoked FoB without attacking, then ran away and were ambushed you could use your FoB attacks. Just like an actual attack, FoB can be separated by movement and item interactions so it would be possible, if odd. Of course, if the enemy sees you keep dropping your sword to attack, cue prepared spell to separate you from your beloved weapon!

[CantigThimble]

The "immediately after" clause means that you have decide to invoke the power. So you can't attack, run away and get surprised, and then decide to use FoB. However, if you attacked, invoked FoB without attacking, then ran away and were ambushed you could use your FoB attacks. Just like an actual attack, FoB can be separated by movement and item interactions so it would be possible, if odd. Of course, if the enemy sees you keep dropping your sword to attack, cue prepared spell to separate you from your beloved weapon!

Just carry around 8 greatswords and draw a new one!

[Tarvil]

I'd probably go that Rogue 3/Fighter 4/Paladin 13 build. I could max my attack stats and take a lot of feats.

[MaxWilson]

Just carry around 8 greatswords and draw a new one!

Well, with all 18s you certainly have the carrying capacity for it... :)


The "immediately after" clause means that you have decide to invoke the power. So you can't attack, run away and get surprised, and then decide to use FoB. However, if you attacked, invoked FoB without attacking, then ran away and were ambushed you could use your FoB attacks. Just like an actual attack, FoB can be separated by movement and item interactions so it would be possible, if odd. Of course, if the enemy sees you keep dropping your sword to attack, cue prepared spell to separate you from your beloved weapon!

I believe you're misunderstanding the purpose of the "immediately after" clause. What FoB says it that you can't Flurry of Blows before your normal attacks, e.g. because you're an open hand monk and you want to knock them prone first. This stands in contrast to things like War Magic and Shield Master, which let you use your bonus action "when" you select an action and not "immediately after" the action, so you can use the bonus action before resolving your normal attack.

[RickAllison]

Just carry around 8 greatswords and draw a new one!

..... That's a pretty decent idea. Are there any rules for cursing a weapon? If so, cursing your +3 greatsword so it is the only weapon you can draw would be just great for this build :smallbiggrin:

[BootStrapTommy]

On 3d6 6 times? No, it never has. And I don't care how many people say they've seen it happen. A Fermi estimate of the total number of dice rolls in the history of humans rolling dice tells me that it's unlikely that it's ever happened that someone rolled 18 6's in a row. It might conceivably have happened once, but even then the odds are virtually zero that anybody I've ever spoken to or chatted with on the internet happened to be there that day, which was probably centuries ago.

(I know someone who's seen it happen. I wasn't there, but I also know the other people in the gaming group involved. One of them has a prankish personality and owns a set of loaded 6-siders that always roll 6's. Just sayin': what you saw isn't always what you think you saw.)I said it before, and I'll say it again, the thing about probability is that it never withstands encounters with reality. The probability of intelligent life emerging on Earth was near impossible, but here we are.

The thing is, it is only an illusion that each side of a die has equal probability. For example, on a pipped die the 1 face is always the heaviest, having the fewest pips, which greatly increases the chances of rolling a 6, which is on the reverse and is the lightest having the most pips (this is why the 1 is so big on some die). In fact I personally own a d6, which is not a trick die, which has been ban by some DMs I know simply because it rolls so high, so often (it has damage on the 6 face which makes it even lighter). You see this kind of thing with coins, where the supposed 50/50 probability gets biased by the weight of each face and by which side of the coin is facing up at start of the flip (this effects dice as well). Not to mention the actual probability of a 50/50 split is much lower than results wildly in favor of one or the other, which indicates that the supposed "probability" of a coin flip is a mathematical dillusion.

Point is, the above probabilities are ideal probabilities. But there is nothing ideal about reality. Probability rarely survives encounters with reality.

[Grey Watcher]

I said it before, and I'll say it again, the thing about probability is that it never withstands encounters with reality. The probability of intelligent life emerging on Earth was near impossible, but here we are.

The thing is, it is only an illusion that each side of a die has equal probability. For example, on a pipped die the 1 face is always the heaviest, having the fewest pips, which greatly increases the chances of rolling a 6, which is on the reverse and is the lightest having the most pips (this is why the 1 is so big on some die). In fact I personally own a d6, which is not a trick die, which has been ban by some DMs I know simply because it rolls so high, so often (it has damage on the 6 face which makes it even lighter). You see this kind of thing with coins, where the supposed 50/50 probability gets biased by the weight of each face and by which side of the coin is facing up at start of the flip. Not to mention the actual probability of a 50/50 split is much lower than results wildly in favor of one or the other.

Point is, the above probabilities are ideal probabilities. But there is nothing ideal about reality.

And that's before you take into account that most consumer-grade dice aren't made that rigorously. If you sliced open your dice you'd likely find air pockets, dense bits, and other imperfections making the dice unfair. There's a reason major casinos get their dice custom made to prevent such imperfections (whether their weighted to compensate for the pips, I don't know, but I'd imagine so).

And, even assuming fair dice, a non-zero chance can still happen. I mean, how many more lottery winners are then the odds say there should be? (Actually, I ask that seriously, what do the numbers work out to?)

[eastmabl]

I'd probably go for a Saving Throw build. Just because the opportunity to pump all six saves to the max isn't likely to come around again.

I'm not sure if you can do this. Multiclassing does not grant additional saving throw proficiencies, and unless the feat specifies otherwise, you can only take a feat once. Resilience does not specify that it can be taken more than once.

Thus, generally you are capped at a max of 3 saving throw proficiencies. Rogues can get four at 15th level with Slippery Mind and Resilience.

[BootStrapTommy]

And that's before you take into account that most consumer-grade dice aren't made that rigorously. If you sliced open your dice you'd likely find air pockets, dense bits, and other imperfections making the dice unfair. There's a reason major casinos get their dice custom made to prevent such imperfections (whether their weighted to compensate for the pips, I don't know, but I'd imagine so).

And, even assuming fair dice, a non-zero chance can still happen. I mean, how many more lottery winners are then the odds say there should be? (Actually, I ask that seriously, what do the numbers work out to?)I've owned translucent die with visible air pockets in them. Not to mention the density of a solid is rarely uniform!

I know a guy who is astronomically good at manipulating coin flips (he was inspired by comedian David Rees' episode of Going Deep on "How to Flip a Coin", where David Rees also develops the skill). Furthermore, there are dice control techniques used by professional craps players, which seems to be legit enough for casinos to treat it like they treat counting cards in blackjack.

As for the lottery, the now infamous Powerball odds were 1 in 292,201,338. Given the fact that there aren't that many adults in the US and that not even a majority of adults buy tickets, it makes sense that so many drawings can happen before any one person wins.


Thus, generally you are capped at a max of 3 saving throw proficiencies. Rogues can get four at 15th level with Slippery Mind and Resilience.Incorrect, monks get all six at 14th level.

[Oramac]

Technically I believe you could make your two greatsword attacks, drop the greatsword, and then Flurry of Blows with ki. IIRC Flurry of Blows doesn't restrict your weapon choice anyway, like Martial Arts does, but if you don't drop the greatsword your flurry will be Str-based and you won't get to use monk damage dice, just the regular unarmed 1-damage-per-hit.

I'm no expert, but couldn't you just make your two Greatsword attacks and then take one hand off the greatsword for the FoB attacks? Thus you're attacking "unarmed" (since the attacking hand is not holding a weapon), and you still keep your sword.

[MaxWilson]

I'm no expert, but couldn't you just make your two Greatsword attacks and then take one hand off the greatsword for the FoB attacks? Thus you're attacking "unarmed" (since the attacking hand is not holding a weapon), and you still keep your sword.

My recollection of the monk class abilities says you only get the Martial Arts benefits when you are unarmored and unshielded and (unarmed or wielding a monk weapon). A greatsword is not a monk weapon, and you're not unarmed, so...

I could be misremembering the wording, and of course a DM could overrule the PHB anyway--but it doesn't really make sense to me that martial arts techniques would still work the same way when you've got a five-foot-long greatsword gripped in your offhand. Of course they really shouldn't work when you're heavily encumbered either, and yet they do. :-P

[RickAllison]

My recollection of the monk class abilities says you only get the Martial Arts benefits when you are unarmored and unshielded and (unarmed or wielding a monk weapon). A greatsword is not a monk weapon, and you're not unarmed, so...

I could be misremembering the wording, and of course a DM could overrule the PHB anyway--but it doesn't really make sense to me that martial arts techniques would still work the same way when you've got a five-foot-long greatsword gripped in your offhand. Of course they really shouldn't work when you're heavily encumbered either, and yet they do. :-P

I'll just put this right here:

and
monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple
melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or
heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed
or wielding only monk weapons and you aren’t wearing
armor or wielding a shield:

So you are right and its pretty explicit. Even just wielding it in one hand disqualifies it by RAW.

[Temperjoke]

I'd make a non-variant human moon druid, so I can make everyone at the table cry over the waste.

[JNAProductions]

I'd make a Dragonfire Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478935-Dragonfire-Adept-Base-Class&p=20441290#post20441290).

Why? They only really need two stats, and while a third (or even fourth-Strength) is nice, it doesn't really benefit. So why play it?

Because f-ing DRAGONS IS WHY!

[RickAllison]

I'd make a Dragonfire Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478935-Dragonfire-Adept-Base-Class&p=20441290#post20441290).

Why? They only really need two stats, and while a third (or even fourth-Strength) is nice, it doesn't really benefit. So why play it?

Because f-ing DRAGONS IS WHY!

..... I can get behind this logic. Of course, I'm also the person who enjoys packing Polymorph for the express purpose of becoming a T-Rex. Optimal? Doubtful. Awesome? I'll let his guy say it:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/9c/91/f0/9c91f0dd7874ce0b1ab8aa5c83815881.gif

[BootStrapTommy]

I'd make a Dragonfire Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478935-Dragonfire-Adept-Base-Class&p=20441290#post20441290).

Why? They only really need two stats, and while a third (or even fourth-Strength) is nice, it doesn't really benefit. So why play it?

Because f-ing DRAGONS IS WHY!That's a nice Homebrew right there.

[PeteNutButter]

Best build with all 18s? Wizard 20 :P

But for fun you could go barbarian 7, assassin rogue 3, paladin 6, fighter 2, bard 2. I'm at work so I'm going off of memory...
The Singing Swinging Smiting Sneaking Screaming Scallywag
Be a Half-Orc. Take the Alert Feat. Have +13 and adv on intiative. Always go first.
Have +17 to stealth with expertise, never be seen. You can cast invisibility if needed.

Assassinate with GreatAxe dropping 4d12+8d8 (smite) +2d6 hunters mark +5 str +10 GWM +2 rage... thrice (You crit so GWM gives you a bonus action attack). Action Surge, do it a 4th and 5th time(using lower lvl smites). Go first on initiative hit two more times on your turn (not autocrit). All in all I think thats nearly 400(didn't mess with reroll ones math on this train) average damage before anyone can do anything.

You'll still have at least +10 to all saves and at least 20 AC naked, with a ton of hps. You can let me know if I cheated something. Like I said, doing it from memory. Maybe sneak in war cleric for bonus action attacks instead of something else.

[Sigreid]

I'm not sure if you can do this. Multiclassing does not grant additional saving throw proficiencies, and unless the feat specifies otherwise, you can only take a feat once. Resilience does not specify that it can be taken more than once.

Thus, generally you are capped at a max of 3 saving throw proficiencies. Rogues can get four at 15th level with Slippery Mind and Resilience.

AFB, but don't monks eventually get proficiency in all of the saves? Failing that, a paladin's aura is just about as good as.

[Sigreid]

I know a guy who is astronomically good at manipulating coin flips (he was inspired by comedian David Rees' episode of Going Deep on "How to Flip a Coin", where David Rees also develops the skill). Furthermore, there are dice control techniques used by professional craps players, which seems to be legit enough for casinos to treat it like they treat counting cards in blackjack.



I noticed years ago that something about the way I flip a coin makes it so what ever is facing up when flipped, the other side is what is going to be up at the end. I've not seen it not happen that way in years, and have no idea what about my flipping technique makes it happen that way. And my grand father was a gambler and could toss a pair of 6 sided dice and tell you before hand what was going to come up on each die.

Edit: On the flipping thing, maybe that's why the person who flips the coin is never supposed to call it. Maybe the real randomness there is which side is up to begin with.

[MaxWilson]

I noticed years ago that something about the way I flip a coin makes it so what ever is facing up when flipped, the other side is what is going to be up at the end. I've not seen it not happen that way in years, and have no idea what about my flipping technique makes it happen that way. And my grand father was a gambler and could toss a pair of 6 sided dice and tell you before hand what was going to come up on each die.

Edit: On the flipping thing, maybe that's why the person who flips the coin is never supposed to call it. Maybe the real randomness there is which side is up to begin with.

Wow! That is awesome!

[Submortimer]

I'm gonna echo the Pal 6/monk 14, but use shadow hand/vengeance instead and play it as Batman.

[Christian]

I said it before, and I'll say it again, the thing about probability is that it never withstands encounters with reality. The probability of intelligent life emerging on Earth was near impossible, but here we are.

The thing is, it is only an illusion that each side of a die has equal probability. For example, on a pipped die the 1 face is always the heaviest, having the fewest pips, which greatly increases the chances of rolling a 6, which is on the reverse and is the lightest having the most pips (this is why the 1 is so big on some die). In fact I personally own a d6, which is not a trick die, which has been ban by some DMs I know simply because it rolls so high, so often (it has damage on the 6 face which makes it even lighter). You see this kind of thing with coins, where the supposed 50/50 probability gets biased by the weight of each face and by which side of the coin is facing up at start of the flip (this effects dice as well). Not to mention the actual probability of a 50/50 split is much lower than results wildly in favor of one or the other, which indicates that the supposed "probability" of a coin flip is a mathematical dillusion.

Point is, the above probabilities are ideal probabilities. But there is nothing ideal about reality. Probability rarely survives encounters with reality.

Yes, I believe I mentioned loaded dice in my post. Loaded dice, unintentionally unfair dice due to damage and/or manufacturing flaws, dice with 6's on every face, etc. aren't accounted for in this kind of calculation. But nobody assumes they are, so it's disingenuous to bring it up in this sort of discussion. Like:

"I wonder if anyone's ever actually rolled 6 18's on 3d6?"
"Oh, yes, lots of people have. I did it myself three times yesterday, with dice that had 6's inked on every face. I can do it again right now if you want!"

I venture to suggest that this is not the sort of information the questioner was looking for. There's a chance I could be wrong, though. :smallsmile: Given how far the possibility of fair dice making this roll is from anything that could have actually happened, the dice that rolled such a set of scores (if they were even actually rolled) had to be so unfair as not to be reasonably referred to as 'dice'. The point of rolling dice in a game is to generate variable numbers across the range of possible results with at least roughly equal probabilities. If you roll a few 6's in a row on your d6's, the presumption is that you've gotten lucky. Long before you get to 18 in a row, it's time to discard that in favor of the theory that you have bad d6's, and discard the dice in favor of some that are actually useful to game with.

(The chances of life existing on Earth aren't really known, since we've only had one planet to study. But even if they're extremely low, the Universe is so big that it's likely life would have evolved somewhere, and wherever it turned up, that life could ask that same question. Look up the Anthropic Principle ... In actual fact, the so-called Fermi Paradox is the cosmological puzzle that, given even the most pessimistic estimates of those odds, we should have detected signs of intelligent life in other star systems long before now.)


And, even assuming fair dice, a non-zero chance can still happen. I mean, how many more lottery winners are then the odds say there should be? (Actually, I ask that seriously, what do the numbers work out to?)

That question is a bit vague, as there's no 'the lottery'. Grabbing a workable subset of easily available data, I can see that since the Powerball jackpot odds were changed to 1:292 million last year, nearly two billion Powerball tickets have been sold, and 4 of them (compared to the expected 6 or 7) were jackpot winners. So there have been somewhat unexpectedly few (which is why the rolling jackpots got so high early this year). I expect that will balance out over time.

[BootStrapTommy]

Yes, I believe I mentioned loaded dice in my post. Loaded dice, unintentionally unfair dice due to damage and/or manufacturing flaws, dice with 6's on every face, etc. aren't accounted for in this kind of calculation. But nobody assumes they are, so it's disingenuous to bring it up in this sort of discussion. Like:

"I wonder if anyone's ever actually rolled 6 18's on 3d6?"
"Oh, yes, lots of people have. I did it myself three times yesterday, with dice that had 6's inked on every face. I can do it again right now if you want!"

I venture to suggest that this is not the sort of information the questioner was looking for. There's a chance I could be wrong, though. :smallsmile: Given how far the possibility of fair dice making this roll is from anything that could have actually happened, the dice that rolled such a set of scores (if they were even actually rolled) had to be so unfair as not to be reasonably referred to as 'dice'. The point of rolling dice in a game is to generate variable numbers across the range of possible results with at least roughly equal probabilities. If you roll a few 6's in a row on your d6's, the presumption is that you've gotten lucky. Long before you get to 18 in a row, it's time to discard that in favor of the theory that you have bad d6's, and discard the dice in favor of some that are actually useful to game with. There is no such thing as a fair die. It is a delusion, developed based on our strange belief that the physics of six sided objects are some how unpredicable. Physics indicates otherwise.

That's the problem. No solid is uniformly dense, no die is a perfect cude, the very act of enumerating the sides of dice changes their balance, and good muscle memory and experience with the die in question goes a long way toward duplicating results.

In other words, you are making a poor decisions to assume dice are anything approaching random. Particularly oerfect ones in unskill hands, maybe. But the idea that each side is equally likely is patently flawed, and that's why the math regarding the probability does not approximate the reality. The math depends on ideal dice, and there is no such thing.

[N810]

Casino dice are balanced, I think they paint on the pips on a D6 to have a perfect center of balance,
also they have sharp corners, not sure if that matters as much though.

Ahh, found a lengthily article on it if you are interested: http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That's_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice