Dex Paladin+Undying Light

[AstralFire]

Just wanted to get some input in case I missed things?

Starting level: 4

Relevant houserules: 1 free starting feat for everyone, and Undying Light's cha-mod damage bonus applies to every individual hit with Divine Favor. Also my character starts with winged boots -- everyone got one uncommon magic item to start with, and that was my choice. I've considered switching to mithral full-plate, but I really like flying, thematically.
Relevant Party needs: Party leans squishy when not including me, though we do have another frontliner.
Relevant flavor bits: Rapier dexadin, human, half-elf, or aasimar. Character is generally intelligent.

Race: Half-Elf
Class: Paladin of Devotion 3, Undying Light Warlock 1.
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16.
Starting Feat: Warcaster
Cantrips: Green-Flame Blade, Booming Blade, Sacred Flame, Light
Fighting Style: Was leaning towards Defense; it's only a +1 to AC, but I usually have better things to spend my reaction on that Protection, GWF doesn't work with rapiers, a lot of my attacks are going to be GFB and BB so Dueling looks a little worse.
Oath: Devotion, for Cha to attack.

Planned Path: either
to Paladin 6/Lock 1 (ASI: Cha +2)
to Paladin 6/Lock 6 (ASI: Cha +2)
to Paladin 14/Lock 6 (Feats: Shield Master, Resilient)

or

Go Paladin 19/Lock 1
ASIs: Cha: +2, Cha: +2, Shield Master, Resilient, Durable

[Citan]

Just wanted to get some input in case I missed things?

Starting level: 4

Relevant houserules: 1 free starting feat for everyone, and Undying Light's cha-mod damage bonus applies to every individual hit with Divine Favor. Also my character starts with winged boots -- everyone got one uncommon magic item to start with, and that was my choice. I've considered switching to mithral full-plate, but I really like flying, thematically.
Relevant Party needs: Party leans squishy when not including me, though we do have another frontliner.
Relevant flavor bits: Rapier dexadin, human, half-elf, or aasimar. Character is generally intelligent.

Race: Half-Elf
Class: Paladin of Devotion 3, Undying Light Warlock 1.
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16.
Starting Feat: Warcaster
Cantrips: Green-Flame Blade, Booming Blade, Sacred Flame, Light
Fighting Style: Was leaning towards Defense; it's only a +1 to AC, but I usually have better things to spend my reaction on that Protection, GWF doesn't work with rapiers, a lot of my attacks are going to be GFB and BB so Dueling looks a little worse.
Oath: Devotion, for Cha to attack.

Planned Path: either
to Paladin 6/Lock 1 (ASI: Cha +2)
to Paladin 6/Lock 6 (ASI: Cha +2)
to Paladin 14/Lock 6 (Feats: Shield Master, Resilient)

or

Go Paladin 19/Lock 1
ASIs: Cha: +2, Cha: +2, Shield Master, Resilient, Durable
Hi!

Cool build, especially with the houserules.
Just a point though: if you plan on using GFB and BB on a basis, since it's a normal melee attack that is included, Dueling would apply. And +2 damage is not bad. With that said, Defense is always good.

What do you plan about ranged attack? Unless you don't care about having any (which would be sad for flying creatures at least ^^), would you rather carry a hand crossbow (shield) / bow, rely on Eldricht Blast or just "plain" Sacred Flame?
Just curiosity... :=)

Anyways, a few suggestions about objective build.
Paladin 14's feature is good, but probably not unavoidable. Switching that level for a Warlock's would allow you to learn a 4th level spell and get lvl 4 spell slots, together with another Invocation. Many ways to use this good. And you still get access to all 3rd lvl spells from Paladin.

So getting Pal 13 / War 7 would be my prime recommandation.

Alternatively, go Pal 15 to be extra tanky (permanent Protection from Evil and Good should be useful in many situations, although Warlock's 6 ability is a nice panic button).

As for Pacts... Blade is the non-interesting one for your build (because you get Extra Attack with Paladin), Tome is always nice, Chain is probably the best for you mechanically.

You will have fun. :)

[bid]

Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16.
You need Str13 to MC out of paladin. Get it house-ruled off.

[CaptAl]

You need Str13 to MC out of paladin. Get it house-ruled off.

Also, Warcaster isn't available to Paladin's at level 1 without a handwave from the DM. So, RAW you'd need to go warlock 1 then take Paladin levels. Not a big deal if you're sticking to Med/Light armor though.

[AstralFire]

Also, Warcaster isn't available to Paladin's at level 1 without a handwave from the DM. So, RAW you'd need to go warlock 1 then take Paladin levels. Not a big deal if you're sticking to Med/Light armor though.

Both things have been cleared by the GM, so no concern there. I was unaware up until now that the MC requirements had to be met to -leave- your class too, though; that's... dumb.


Hi!

Cool build, especially with the houserules.
Just a point though: if you plan on using GFB and BB on a basis, since it's a normal melee attack that is included, Dueling would apply. And +2 damage is not bad. With that said, Defense is always good.

Hi! :D

Yeah, I mean, it'll still contribute -- but I'll be spending less of my time making melee attacks in general, at least that's my thinking.



What do you plan about ranged attack? Unless you don't care about having any (which would be sad for flying creatures at least ^^), would you rather carry a hand crossbow (shield) / bow, rely on Eldricht Blast or just "plain" Sacred Flame?
Just curiosity... :=)

Thinking just Sacred Flame; she could use a bow pretty easily in a pinch and will probably get one for scenarios where sniping is necessary if such a thing comes up, but I don't expect that to be an issue very often.



Anyways, a few suggestions about objective build.
Paladin 14's feature is good, but probably not unavoidable. Switching that level for a Warlock's would allow you to learn a 4th level spell and get lvl 4 spell slots, together with another Invocation. Many ways to use this good. And you still get access to all 3rd lvl spells from Paladin.

So getting Pal 13 / War 7 would be my prime recommandation.

Alternatively, go Pal 15 to be extra tanky (permanent Protection from Evil and Good should be useful in many situations, although Warlock's 6 ability is a nice panic button).

As for Pacts... Blade is the non-interesting one for your build (because you get Extra Attack with Paladin), Tome is always nice, Chain is probably the best for you mechanically.

You will have fun. :)

Oooh, I appreciate the input here, really useful stuff. I had been leaning towards Tome myself -- just curious, why do you say Chain is the best? To have the familiar take "help" actions on me?

[Fable Wright]

Query: Why Dexadin? Your AC and damage is lower this way, as you're not putting ASIs into Dex and don't have the strength for heavier armor. The switch to 15 Str gives you +3 AC when you were considering Protection style for +1, and it also comes with a fair damage boost from the weapons you get access to. I'm just wondering what the benefits you see in it are.

[bid]

Query: Why Dexadin? Your AC and damage is lower this way, as you're not putting ASIs into Dex and don't have the strength for heavier armor. The switch to 15 Str gives you +3 AC when you were considering Protection style for +1, and it also comes with a fair damage boost from the weapons you get access to. I'm just wondering what the benefits you see in it are.
Half-plate: AC 17
Plate: AC18

And you can grab MAM if that last point bothers you.

[AstralFire]

Query: Why Dexadin? Your AC and damage is lower this way, as you're not putting ASIs into Dex and don't have the strength for heavier armor. The switch to 15 Str gives you +3 AC when you were considering Protection style for +1, and it also comes with a fair damage boost from the weapons you get access to. I'm just wondering what the benefits you see in it are.

As noted: Dexadin is a flavor choice. I've always liked nimble paladins. 5E unfortunately does not support the type as well as I'd hope, but it's not a bad choice overall, as it gives higher Initiative and dexterity saves.

[Citan]

Oooh, I appreciate the input here, really useful stuff. I had been leaning towards Tome myself -- just curious, why do you say Chain is the best? To have the familiar take "help" actions on me?
Well, I'm usually "pushing" the Tome pact because I'm a true fan of the two-fold goodies (cantrips + rituals) but for your particular build, I felt the cantrips side would not bring so much.

I mean, usually people get...
- Shillelagh (but it's against your flavor of rapier-wielding, so a no-go).
- Guidance (but you will probably either use rather your action to attack and concentration for buffs. Although this is still great for non-combat situations).
- Ranged attack cantrip (but you already have some of the best with Sacred Flame and Eldricht Blast).
- Melee attack cantrip (idem).
- Thorn Whip to bring people in ;)
- Utility (Gust / Mold Earth / Minor Illusion / etc).

So, it's still a good choice if you wanted to grab some utility and be more versatile, and a great choice if you wanted to be the ritual caster of the group.

With that said, Chain means you get a very potent way of scouting (invisible telepath familiar) AND magic resistance if you get your familiar close to you. So great in any fight.

Really up to you though obviously (beside the fact that it's YOUR character XD), both choices are very strong, really depends on how you envision your character.

Good night (day?)!

[Syll]

Race: Half-Elf
Class: Paladin of Devotion 3, Undying Light Warlock 1.
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16.
[
If you did point buy it looks as though you're shorting yourself 2 points

[Saggo]

As for Pacts... Blade is the non-interesting one for your build (because you get Extra Attack with Paladin), Tome is always nice, Chain is probably the best for you mechanically.There's nothing preventing a pact weapon being used with Extra Attack, so while there is overlap with Thirsting Blade and Extra Attack, you could just not take that particular invocation. Saves an invocation tax and you have a magic, teleporting, un-disarmable weapon, and you can take Lifedrinker if you're inclined to go 12 levels of Warlock for (in this case) +3-5 extra damage on top of BB/GFB and potentially Dueling damage. Still a credible option, really.

[Corran]

Since you will be rocking divine favor and you will add your cha mod to your damage from the warlock's feature, why dont you do a TWF build? That means that you will focus on your attack action, so by level 6 (assuming paladin 5/warlock 1) you will be attacking 3 times for a total of 3d6+3d4+2xdex+3xcha. And that will improve when/if you get improved divine smite at some point (paladin lvl 11), or if you turn oathbreaker (aura of hate, lvl 7). I would suggest a polearm, but you made it clear that you want a dex build. Anyway, as far as I can see you dont have a lot of competition for your bonus action, so TWF would play well.

Shield master will not work great with a low athletics (str 8), maybe reconsider this feat.

Did you consider mobile, for BB goodness? That means that you are more of a skirmisher and less of a tank, so I am not sure if you would like that.

If you stick with S&B and warcaster however, command is a nice spell to use. Pump your charisma and use your action to command an adjacent enemy to flee, then make an OA with BB (warcaster) for some serious pain. It will burn through your slots quickly, but heck, it is not like you have a shield spell or anything. Save it for when it matters.

Does the undying warlock adds your cha mod to fire damage too? If yes, consider hellish rebuke. A good way to utilise your reaction for some extra damage. Command is a better use of a slot, but hellish rebuke might be more reliable according to what opponent you are facing ofc.

[Citan]

There's nothing preventing a pact weapon being used with Extra Attack, so while there is overlap with Thirsting Blade and Extra Attack, you could just not take that particular invocation. Saves an invocation tax and you have a magic, teleporting, un-disarmable weapon, and you can take Lifedrinker if you're inclined to go 12 levels of Warlock for (in this case) +3-5 extra damage on top of BB/GFB and potentially Dueling damage. Still a credible option, really.
I disagree, because Lifedrinker is not an option since OP made it clear he would make Paladin main.
So...
Magic? Divine Favor takes care of it.
Teleporting? Does not even fit the niche case "throwable bond weapon" since you need an action to recreate it (worse than EK's bonus action). So, it can be used creatively in RP situations (such as, classic "naked prisoner"). Is it enough the make the Pact worth? Depends on love of OP for this kind of thing. :)
Undisarmable? Same benefit and same problem as the "teleporting" aspect.

With that said, if OP wanted to go TWF then it could become a strong option, and if OP went Warlock main instead of Paladin main then it would be maybe (probably?) the best option.

Since you will be rocking divine favor and you will add your cha mod to your damage from the warlock's feature, why dont you do a TWF build? That means that you will focus on your attack action, so by level 6 (assuming paladin 5/warlock 1) you will be attacking 3 times for a total of 3d6+3d4+2xdex+3xcha. And that will improve when/if you get improved divine smite at some point (paladin lvl 11), or if you turn oathbreaker (aura of hate, lvl 7). I would suggest a polearm, but you made it clear that you want a dex build. Anyway, as far as I can see you dont have a lot of competition for your bonus action, so TWF would play well.

Shield master will not work great with a low athletics (str 8), maybe reconsider this feat.

Agreed with this suggestion for offense power (or otherwise said, better use of possible bonus action).

With that said, I think OP wanted Shield Master less for the "shove as bonus action" and more for the extra defense of shield + "avoid all damage on successful DEX saves", which is a very reasonable choice also. :)

[AstralFire]

I considered a TWF build, but particularly at low levels, I feel like it invites a lot of Divine Favor spells being burned due to concentration when I'm going to be one of two front liners for a party of five. And yeah, considering Shield Master for the defensive benefits along those lines, not shoving.

Syll, thanks for the point buy catch, Con should be fifteen!

I appreciate the options, hard to respond point by point in appropriate detail when mobile though.

[Saggo]

I disagree, because Lifedrinker is not an option since OP made it clear he would make Paladin main.
So...
Magic? Divine Favor takes care of it.
Teleporting? Does not even fit the niche case "throwable bond weapon" since you need an action to recreate it (worse than EK's bonus action). So, it can be used creatively in RP situations (such as, classic "naked prisoner"). Is it enough the make the Pact worth? Depends on love of OP for this kind of thing. :)
Undisarmable? Same benefit and same problem as the "teleporting" aspect.

With that said, if OP wanted to go TWF then it could become a strong option, and if OP went Warlock main instead of Paladin main then it would be maybe (probably?) the best option.

Your main isn't what has the most levels, it's just what has enough levels to define what you do. A Paladin8/Warlock12 is no less a Paladin than a Paladin8/Warlock6/xxxx6, for instance. Blade Pact offers usable mechanics (weaponless bad, damage good) and fluff. Since we're clearly not worried about optimized builds here, it remains an option worth noting, perhaps not aggressively pushed.

[Citan]

Your main isn't what has the most levels, it's just what has enough levels to define what you do. A Paladin8/Warlock12 is no less a Paladin than a Paladin8/Warlock6/xxxx6, for instance. Blade Pact offers usable mechanics (weaponless bad, damage good) and fluff. Since we're clearly not worried about optimized builds here, it remains an option worth noting, perhaps not aggressively pushed.
You're just arguing by deforming what I'm saying just for the sake of having the last word here.

I'm really amused that you want to tell ME such a thing. I'm actually one of the most ardent "enhanced Paladin" promoter with a dozen builds suggested around the threads. As well as one of the most prominent heavy-multiclass builder. So I'm fully aware of what you're talking about.
You should stop being condescending just because you don't even want to try understanding what people write.

When I meant "main" I was referring to the fact that OP planned on going Paladin 14 (seemed pretty obvious to me in the context of OP post and "multiclass build").

Blade Pact becomes really good with Lifedrinker, before, it's just passable when you already get Extra Attack somewhere else.

Paladin > 10 = Paladin main ("main" as class where you put the most levels).
So no Lifedrinker.
So Blade Pact totally lackluster because it brings NEARLY NOTHING beyond fluff.
If OP wanted this kind of concept and get some mechanic benefits, it would better dip Eldricht Knight 3. Fighting Style, Action Surge, a few useful spells and cantrips and two weapons that can be recalled with a bonus action, meaning you can actually use it for fun tricks (although it's not optimal).

THIS would actually be a good dip. That it would be better than 3 more levels in Paladin or (Tome/Chain) Warlock overall is another story though.

OR, he could indeed stay just Paladin 14 / Warlock 6 and take the Blade Pact, just because he likes the fluff concept and doesn't want to "disperse", while being fully aware that it's a waste mechanically (well, one could argue that it gives more space for other invocations ^^).

If however he stops Paladin at 6, then Pact Blade becomes a nice choice indeed.

[RickAllison]

Your main isn't what has the most levels, it's just what has enough levels to define what you do. A Paladin8/Warlock12 is no less a Paladin than a Paladin8/Warlock6/xxxx6, for instance. Blade Pact offers usable mechanics (weaponless bad, damage good) and fluff. Since we're clearly not worried about optimized builds here, it remains an option worth noting, perhaps not aggressively pushed.

Indeed. My character Quierk-Deekek-Urreek-Ikki (Aarakocra) identifies as a Sun Soul monk, fights as a Sun Soul monk, and enforces the will of Amaunator like a Sun Soul monk of his temple. This is despite the fact that he is currently Monk 3/Warlock 3/Sorcerer 1 and he will be putting only two more levels into Monk and the rest into 'Lock.

[Saggo]

You're just arguing by deforming what I'm saying just for the sake of having the last word here.

I'm really amused that you want to tell ME such a thing. I'm actually one of the most ardent "enhanced Paladin" promoter with a dozen builds suggested around the threads. As well as one of the most prominent heavy-multiclass builder. So I'm fully aware of what you're talking about.
You should stop being condescending just because you don't even want to try understanding what people write.

You managed to take a minor counterargument and turn it into a character attack and shameless self-promotion, so I guess we're done here.

[RickAllison]

You managed to take a minor counterargument and turn it into a character attack and shameless self-promotion, so I guess we're done here.

But aside from his behavior the discussion is so much fun!
As a side note, why did they have to make two Warlock patrons sound so similar? Every time I want to find Undying information, I just get UL...

[AstralFire]

I also thought that was an odd choice considering another UA path was put into the SCAG.