Fun, Flexible, Creative, etc Classes

[TheCreatorT]

What classes do you guys think are fun or highly customizable, and yet still playable and viable? I heard beguiler, dread necro, and bard are fun, but what other classes do you guys think or have had experience with that are along the same lines?

[erok0809]

Personally, I find sorcerers to be super customizable and fun, where every sorcerer can be unique based on spell selection and prestige class choices. They're full casters, so they're basically always viable, at least as long as their spell selection is moderately intelligent. Even with that though, "sub-par" spell selection probably leads to decently blasting, which tends to be a lot of fun for me.

There's also wizards, who are customizable to the point of changing practically their entire schtick on a day-to-day basis if they so desire. That can be fun too.

[Extra Anchovies]

Beguiler and Dread Necromancer actually aren't customizable - they have fixed spell lists and don't have any built-in options or bonus feats :smalltongue:

The Incarnum classes (and their Akasha counterparts from Dreamscarred Press) are among the most flexible classes, because they get to pick a whole new list of abilities every day - and they're also generally well-balanced and very fun to play. The Soulborn is pretty bad, but it's not terribly difficult to fix - it's mostly a matter of giving them an actual meldshaping progression (example (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?p=3692029#post3692029)).

[TheCreatorT]

Beguiler and Dread Necromancer actually aren't customizable - they have fixed spell lists and don't have any built-in options or bonus feats :smalltongue:

The Incarnum classes (and their Akasha counterparts from Dreamscarred Press) are among the most flexible classes, because they get to pick a whole new list of abilities every day - and they're also generally well-balanced and very fun to play. The Soulborn is pretty bad, but it's not terribly difficult to fix - it's mostly a matter of giving them an actual meldshaping progression (example (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?p=3692029#post3692029)).

Oh of course I know they aren't flexible, but I heard many people enjoy playing them.

[Cerefel]

Binder and Factotum are pretty flexible and interesting. They also happen to both be good entries into the Chameleon PrC.

[OldTrees1]

I like the Flexibility of the Martial Rogue. However it takes a respectable amount of system mastery to make it preform well enough to be Fun & Creative.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Shaper psions are awesome for a mind that likes a wide array of incredibly flexible options. Combine the Linked Power feat with psionic minor creation and you can have any plant-based item or substance you can think of within 1 round. And that's not including astral construct, (greater) psionic fabricate, time hop, and all the other powers they have access to. Like thinking outside D&D's basic fight mechanic box? Go shaper and the sky's the limit.

Taking your first level as factotum, taking the Able Learner and Faerie Mysteries Initiate feats, and focusing on Int turns you into a fantastic and incredibly durable skillmonkey, to boot.

[nedz]

Beguiler and Dread Necromancer actually aren't customizable - they have fixed spell lists and don't have any built-in options or bonus feats :smalltongue:

Beguiler:

Dip a PrC, Advanced Learning for Shadow Conjuration.
PrCs can add domains, also Arcane Disciple.
Also Rainbow Servant (post level 15) or Shadowcraft Mage.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Beguiler:

Dip a PrC, Advanced Learning for Shadow Conjuration.
PrCs can add domains, also Arcane Disciple.
Also Rainbow Servant (post level 15) or Shadowcraft Mage.
Anything that adds to your spell list automatically gives you all the spells as spells known. Sandshaper 1, for instance.

[Red Fel]

Beguiler:

Dip a PrC, Advanced Learning for Shadow Conjuration.
PrCs can add domains, also Arcane Disciple.
Also Rainbow Servant (post level 15) or Shadowcraft Mage.


https://cdn2.scratch.mit.edu/get_image/gallery/529281_200x130.png
I wasn't about to use the Objection Maker. Those images are too darn large.
The use of a PrC doesn't make the base class customizable or flexible - it just means you used a PrC!

[daremetoidareyo]

I think druid is the most flexible. A ton of ACFs to pick up Barbarian or ranger abilities. And you can choose what you're good at, most of the time just by neglecting your other abilities.

Summoner? Boom. Augment summoning. Greenbound summoning.
Raging Bear Bear-slinger? Boom. Natural spell
Vermin Lord? Boom.
Uber companion? Boom.
Octopus archer using tentacle arrows to ranged improved grab folks for constrict damage? Boom
Bird man Mc birdman? Natural spell
Elementalist? Boom.
Machomonster RandySavage? wildshape.
Dragon themed thing? Sure, why not, there's an ACF for that.
Werewolf hippie? Shifter Druid moonspeaker.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

https://cdn2.scratch.mit.edu/get_image/gallery/529281_200x130.png
I wasn't about to use the Objection Maker. Those images are too darn large.
The use of a PrC doesn't make the base class customizable or flexible - it just means you used a PrC!Does it count if beguiler makes better use of certain options than almost any other class?

[Red Fel]

Does it count if beguiler makes better use of certain options than almost any other class?

Beguiler is an awesome, fun class, I won't challenge that assertion. But on the question of whether the class itself is creative, flexible, and customizable, I'm not so sure. It doesn't count if you use options that work for everybody, because then it's the options that are flexible and customizable.

I mean, look at what Beguiler gets. Fixed-list casting. Plus side, you know all of those spells; minus side, with the exception of five Advanced Learning options (which must be Sor/Wiz enchantment or illusion spells), that's all you get, ever. On top of that, you get two bonus feats (which any caster could take, although you get them for free), special advantages when casting spells on a Dex-denied opponent, Trapfinding, and the ability to cast in light armor. That's it. It's a pretty great package, but it's not the most versatile or flexible.

Is it fun? You bet. Can it make good use of various options? Absolutely. Does that make it more flexible as a class? Nope.

[LoyalPaladin]

Fun and flexible? Sounds like a bard to me. They're basically made to fit into any party and have a good time doing it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Fun and flexible? Sounds like a bard to me. They're basically made to fit into any party and have a good time doing it.They work far better with splat support, however. Core just doesn't give them much. Their skill list is one of the best in the PHB, and they do have some options that other classes don't get easily (such as whip proficiency), but unless you optimize UMD and buy a bunch of consumables (or Gygax forbid, Diplomacy), they're not very strong at all unless you go splat-diving.

[TheCreatorT]

As is true with all other forums, everything usually comes down to a debate :smalltongue: (I'm just playing though)

[Zaq]

They work far better with splat support, however. Core just doesn't give them much. Their skill list is one of the best in the PHB, and they do have some options that other classes don't get easily (such as whip proficiency), but unless you optimize UMD and buy a bunch of consumables (or Gygax forbid, Diplomacy), they're not very strong at all unless you go splat-diving.

I disagree. They're way easier to optimize with splat support (Inspire Courage is basically nothing with just the PHB, while it's a monster with full books open, just for starters), but a Core-only Bard is still formidable. They may not be Sorcerers, but their spell list is not to be ignored. Even at low-mid levels, they get the Three Big Gs in the PHB alone (Grease, Glitterdust, and Glibness), any of which can be used to turn different kinds of encounters on their heads. Between having great skills and good spells, they can absolutely contribute even without any extra books. Yeah, they're unquestionably stronger with more books (absolutely no argument there), but they're still quite powerful in a Core-only environment.

Anyway, my picks for some of the most flexible classes (Binder and the two usable incarnum classes, meaning the Incarnate and the Totemist) have already been mentioned, but it's worth mentioning them again. They're like prepared divine casters in that they can swap out what they do every single day, but they're also not crazy overpowered (and they arguably have less bookkeeping).

Swordsage is worth mentioning. They're more flexible to build than to play, but you can still build a Swordsage to focus on basically any of their schools, and they'll end up feeling totally different from Swordsages who focus on different schools. Not all of the schools are equally good choices for this, of course—Desert Wind becomes very sad if fire resistance is common, and Stone Dragon isn't going to knock your socks off if that's all you can do (since every initiator gets SD, you may as well pick one with a better maneuver recovery mechanism)—but there's still a ton of flexibility there. A Diamond Mind user is totally different from a Tiger Claw user is totally different from a Setting Sun user, and so on.

Classes that qualify as "creative," meaning they encourage creative play? Obviously, that is what you make of it, but there's a lot of different ways to go about doing that sort of thing. I mean, you can go extreme and start speaking so generally as to make class meaningless in terms of creativity (even a Fighter or a Commoner can come up with interesting solutions to problems if the player sells it well enough and the GM is willing to buy it), but in the interest of actually having a useful discussion and not just saying that "anyone can do anything with the power of imagination," we'll mostly stick with stuff that at least has some basis in the tools granted by the class itself. Naturally, casters get the shiniest and most varied toys to play with, so characters with robust spellcasting ability will usually have access to tools that can be used in creative ways, but that's not the only way to do things. To that end, I can certainly see why Beguiler is coming up—they aren't flexible to build (most Beguilers look pretty damn similar, give or take a PrC or two), but the kinds of spells they have are the kinds of spells that generally encourage creative thinking. (Think of the kinds of problems a Beguiler can solve with Silent Image versus the kinds of problems a Warmage can solve with Lesser Orb of Whatever or with whatever equivalent 1st level boom spell you choose to use. Both are fixed-list casters, so neither is an especially flexible class to build outside of Rainbow Warsnake shenanigans or whatever, but the Beguiler definitely feels like a more creative problem-solver than the Warmage does.) And of course, there's more to spells than just enchantment and illusion and stuff. The most powerful caster I ever played was a high-level Spirit Shaman, and they were able to come up with all kinds of crazy solutions to problems by taking advantage of stuff like (Greater) Stone Shape and Flash Flood and all kinds of bizarre open-ended spells.

A lot depends on the player and on the GM, but a skill-heavy class can often come up with creative solutions to things if you have a player willing to look outside the box a bit and if you have a GM willing to be convinced to let creative things work. Social skills, most notably Diplomacy, are the most obvious skills that lend themselves to creative problem-solving, but they're by no means the only such skills. Disable Device is a biggie. Use Rope has potential. Craft can sometimes do fun stuff. Knowledge skills have obvious uses, but a creative player might find less obvious uses (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html). Again, it requires a GM willing to play ball, but it's still there.

Naturally, the form the creativity will take might differ based on whether you're looking at a character with a whole lot of good skills (like a Rogue who hasn't turbocharged any particular skill set) or a character with a handful of crazy high skills or a character who can shuffle around bonuses to spontaneously become good at things with a little bit of preparation. Speaking very broadly, a character with a whole bunch of good skills (with or without any phenomenal skills) might be inclined to bring in multiple skills to try to resolve something ("how many different talents can I apply to this problem?", while a character with a handful of amazingly high skills might be inclined to try to spin those skills in creative ways and apply them to broader and broader things ("how many different problems can I apply this talent to?"), though of course neither of those is universal.

Since a lot of creative problem-solving is dependent on the GM, the default fluff of the class in question may or may not be helpful (with naturally expected variance based on how strongly the GM believes a class defines a role in the world versus how strongly the GM views classes as sets of features with no strong default fluff). For example, certain GMs will let Druids get away with damn near anything that has something to do with plants or animals, no matter what the game rules indicate should or shouldn't be possible with a given set of abilities. (They might let a Druid automatically identify a plant that another class would need a K: Nature check for, just as one very tame example among many.) This isn't necessarily a conscious choice on the part of the GM, and even if it is, it's not automatically a bad thing (though it can be less than optimal if it unbalances how spotlight time is divided among a group of players or if it unconsciously rewards certain classes over others). Druids, of course, are not the only example of such behavior—to throw out others off the top of my head, a "well-respected" class like a Bard or Paladin might hold higher sway among common folk than their Diplomacy scores might indicate, a Swashbuckler might be allowed to describe flashier stunts than their skill checks would normally allow, a Knight might be granted a better understanding of political matters than a different character with an equivalent K: Nobility check would, and so on. I repeat, this isn't automatically bad, and it's very far from universal. Not every GM will do this, and not every GM who does it realizes that they're doing it, and neither do they all do it in the same way. In a situation where the GM does do this sort of thing (consciously or unconsciously), a player who realizes that this is the case might have an advantage when it comes to solving problems creatively if they can tie their proposed solutions to the unwritten "natural talents" of their character in question.

I've said a lot of words, so I'll back off at this point. Long story short, creativity is what you make of it, but the more tools you start with in your box (whether those tools come from the rules, from the GM, or somewhere else), the more likely it is that you'll be able to come up with new and interesting solutions to problems.

[nedz]

https://cdn2.scratch.mit.edu/get_image/gallery/529281_200x130.png
The use of a PrC doesn't make the base class customizable or flexible - it just means you used a PrC!

True, but I was using PrCs, and feats, to modify the classes spell list - which is the main feature of the class anyway (perhaps that should say the main class feature).

Ed:
further to that point: The most customisable classes are the T1 casters.