Builds for max meaningful decisions (aka “Tactical Fun") in combat

[o6sidian]

For me a big source of fun is making meaningful decisions in combat and be efficient in the chosen role(s).

Let´s use this thread to collect and improve char builds that maximize the number of these decisions.

I´ll go first with my current build:

Role(s): Single target melee DPR when needed (aka “BBEG Nova”), Tank, 2nd Healer
Class: PAL (Vengeance) 6 / SOR (Gold Dragon) X
Race: Half-Elf
Feats: 4 (all needed for ASI if you want get to 20 CHA + 20 STR)
Weapon: Longsword / Longsword + Shield
Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting
Metamagic: Quicken (bonus action casting -> central to maximise options per turn), Twin (buffs, damage cantrips, Compelled Duel etc), Subtle (casting some spells when hands full, casting without risk of Counterspell, casting in delicate RP situations) (SOR 10)
Spells: all PAL 1 + 2, Vengeance (Bane, Misty Step, Hold Person), 13 Spells from SOR 1-7 (Shield, Banishment, Mass Suggestion, Etherealness, Teleport, Fireball, Chain Lightning, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Blink, Haste, Hold Monster, ???)

Actions:
- Standard melee attack(s) (uses no long rest resources)
- Cantrip melee attack (BB / GFB)
- Lay on Hands (heal HP / remove poison)
- Cast spell (heal / damage / buff / debuff / control / move)
- Ranged attack via cantrip (e.g. Fire Bolt)
- Standard Actions (Dash / Disengage / Dodge etc.)
- Drop / pick up shield (free hand for casting + max single target DPR due to GWF / max AC vs hordes or to conserve resources)

Bonus Actions:
- Cast bonus action spell
- Cast quickened spell (heal / damage / buff / debuff / control / move)
- Vow of enmity
- Show / hide wings (SOR 14)

Reactions:
- Cast Shield
- Cast Counterspell
- Melee AoO

Free actions:
- Drink potion (we handle this as a free action, ymmv)

Additional options:
- Which spell to concentrate on (Bless, Heroism, Haste, Hold X, Banishment, Compelled Duel ...)
- To Smite or not to Smite, that is the question :smallamused:

[Hairfish]

Free actions:
- Drop / pick up shield (free hand for casting + max single target DPR due to GWF / max AC vs hordes or to conserve resources)


Readying or removing a shield is a normal action. Blocking attacks "Captain America"-style would destroy your wrist the first time you tried it.

[o6sidian]

Readying or removing a shield is a normal action. Blocking attacks "Captain America"-style would destroy your wrist the first time you tried it.

Yep, makes sense (will be corrected above).
This is expensive if it takes a full action ... It might make me go Longsword only.

[Oramac]

Yep, makes sense (will be corrected above).
This is expensive if it takes a full action ... It might make me go Longsword only.

If you go longsword only, you may as well just grab a Greatsword.

[Lines]

Pretty much just go a caster. Closest thing 5e has to any of the later 3.5 martial classes or 4e ones is the battlemaster, which, you know - that's a replacement for the warblade, crusader, swordsage, warlord, totemist, 4e fighter, rogue and ranger in the same way that an eldritch knight is a replacement for the wizard, sorcerer, druid, cleric, bard and warlock.

If you want to cobble together a build from 5e options, try 3 levels of battlemaster, 6 of monk, 2 of spell-less ranger for 8 superiority dice and a chunk of control.

[Citan]

For me a big source of fun is making meaningful decisions in combat and be efficient in the chosen role(s).

Let´s use this thread to collect and improve char builds that maximize the number of these decisions.

I´ll go first with my current build:

Role(s): Single target melee DPR when needed (aka “BBEG Nova”), Tank, 2nd Healer
Class: PAL (Vengeance) 6 / SOR (Gold Dragon) X
Race: Half-Elf
Feats: 4 (all needed for ASI if you want get to 20 CHA + 20 STR)
Weapon: Longsword / Longsword + Shield
Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting
Metamagic: Quicken (bonus action casting -> central to maximise options per turn), Twin (buffs, damage cantrips, Compelled Duel etc), Subtle (casting some spells when hands full, casting without risk of Counterspell, casting in delicate RP situations) (SOR 10)

Hi OP.
Interesting (and time-consuming) topic.
I'll do a quick try now, more complete one later... :)


Basically, your posted build with the following variants.
Devotion Paladin 6 / Undying Warlock 2 / Sorcerer 12.
You pick Warlock for bonus to Fire and Radiant spells as well as Eldricht Blast if you want, first short-rest slots for buffs or mini-smites. So you switch Vengeance with Devotion because Hex > Hunter's Mark, Haste you have with Sorcerer, and +CHA is good against everyone and not single enemy (although for this kind of build it's a matter of taste, both are good).


Otherwise...
Commander: mix of Monk chassis and other classes to bring control to the battlefied.

Primary role: soft controller
Secondary role: damage dealer.
Third role: healer.

Spellless Ranger Horde Breaker 3, Life Cleric 1, Druid 1, Open Hand Battlemaster Fighter 3, Monk 12.
DEX+WIS build, WIS first.

Life Cleric and Druid are basically here only for Goodberries cheese so that you have a bit of out of combat healing. Otherwise it's nearly useless mechanically-wise because only 2 lvl1 slots and you can get cantrips such as Shillelagh and Thorn Whip with Magic Initiate. So for "true" builds, dropping Life and Cleric to go Monk 14 is much better. Anyways...

Battlemaster brings 4 dice and 3 maneuvers, Mariner Fighting Style and Action Surge.
Spellless Ranger brings 4 dice and 2 maneuvers known, and a situational free attack (easy to enable with Monk's mobility), along with small healing and another Fighting Style (Tunnel Fighter if allowed, otherwise Dueling).
Cleric brings ranged option (Sacred Flame), Guidance and Spare the Dying as well as a bit of healing and buff options.
Druid brings Shillelagh for your main attack and either Thorn Whip (situationally good), Produce Flame (utility/attack combo) or Druidcraft (RP fun) as well as a few utility spells.
Monk brings all Monk goodies as well as 3 ASI.


Offense
Your mundane damage (3-4 attacks with bonus action and Horde Breaker) is so-so but, that's a Monk thing anyways. :)

Defense
Considering WIS 20 / DEX 16 / Mariner, you get 19 AC which is good. :)
You also get all Monk goodies and you can choose Parry or Evasive Footsteps as Maneuvers to further help.

Healing
Your healing is essentially out-of-combat and very light compared to a true healer (3*40 for Goodberries + 5*2d6 for Poultices), but has the benefit of being usable without the need for short-rest (as would hit dice) nor spell slots (since you created Goodberries before a long rest).

Utility
Maneuvers can help in many ways depending the choice (with 5 maneuvers, you can cover several fields): control (Goading), hit (Precision), help (Manoeuvering) etc...
As for spells, when you don't burn everything on Goodberries, you get 3 slots to use on 11 other spells including Bless, Shield of Faith, Sanctuary, Faerie Fire, Fog Cloud, Detect spells and Command.

Main role
Your main role is to rush trough enemy lines, disable the most dangerous ones by using Manoeuvers/Stunning Strike/Open Hand features and fall back, using your base mobility and Step of the Wind if needed, while avoiding damage with Monk abilities and Mobile feat.

Against a single BBEG, you're a one-turn winner (2+2+1+2 attacks on which try Stunning Strike).

And nearly all your resources are short-rest ones, so that's a bonus.
Although it doesn't prevent such a character to think carefully about how to spend his resources. :)


EDIT: Lol. Didn't see the post of Lines, seems I'm actually not the only one loving this kind of build. ^^

[Oramac]

Another one just occurred to me. For major battlefield control, pretty much nothing beats an Illusions Wizard.

Check out these (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IeOXWvbkmQ3nEyM2P3lS8TU4rsK6QJP0oH7HE_v67QY/edit) posts (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZHzEjiHvtDItZE2ixfoYwqi7brTO-ag8uBJndE5saro/edit) about how it all comes together.

[RickAllison]

Citan, small correction. You mean the Undying Light Warlock. That is the one that gives you extra damage for radiant and fire while Undying is from SCAG and focuses on the intersection of life and death and keeping the warlock and his friends on the living side of it.

[Citan]

Citan, small correction. You mean the Undying Light Warlock. That is the one that gives you extra damage for radiant and fire while Undying is from SCAG and focuses on the intersection of life and death and keeping the warlock and his friends on the living side of it.
Er, yes sure. Sorry. Thanks for the correction.
I always forgot you have the "Undying" Warlock option in SCAG. :/

[o6sidian]

If you go longsword only, you may as well just grab a Greatsword.

The Longsword leaves one hand free for casting when needed, that´s why i chose it.
The Greatsword would be great (scnr) if i could afford the GWM Feat, which i probably can´t.

[RickAllison]

Er, yes sure. Sorry. Thanks for the correction.
I always forgot you have the "Undying" Warlock option in SCAG. :/

That's fine, I spend a lot of time trying to do that as well :smallwink:

[Corran]

For me a big source of fun is making meaningful decisions in combat and be efficient in the chosen role(s).

Let´s use this thread to collect and improve char builds that maximize the number of these decisions.

I am a big fan of combining cunning action with spells such as darkness (assuming you can see through that darkness, either via devil's sight - warlock 2 - or via shadow sorcerer - 2 levels are enough - ) and/or greater invisibility (requires 4th level spells and a spell list that provides gr invisibility). So we are looking at a base of rogue 2/warlock 2, or rogue 2/shadow sorcerer 2 for the darkness, or rogue 2/caster 7 for the greater invisibility combo (ATricksters work this tactics magnificently but it takes them forever to get access to greater invisibility - thieves can do that from 13 level if they have access to a scroll of gr invisibility, and AT's can do the same as soon as 3rd level, provided they have such a scroll and that their check for the scroll to work is successful. Though item/scroll dependency is not a good thing imo).

Anyway, I am overanalyzing how you can set it up, while the imortant thing is how you can use this tactics to your advantage. The darkness combo is easier to set up but it is not always party friendly. Anyway, let me talk about the benefits.

First and foremost, cunning action allows you to take the hide action every turn, at the cost of your bonus action. That and the fact that you dont provoke opportunity attacks from creatures that dont see you, means that with a high stealth check (enter expertise) you are practically untargetable (with the exception of area attacks). Even in the rare case that your stealth check is not enough, you are attacked at disadvantage.

Secondly, you attack with advantage, so that favors sneak attack builds and GWM/SS builds. So you can deal some very serious damage every round, and right after that you can hide to avoid even being attacked. Readied actions can still hurt you, but it is not much of a problem. Grapples are an issue though, but you can overcome it quickly by having a good athletics/acrobatics skill, or even better to some teleportation (eg misty step).

Another way to go about your damage is to use BB, you strike, since your moving around can guarantee most of the time that the secondary effect will be triggered (provided you pick off targets that dont have any of your allies adjacent to them - can be done easily, as your mobility will be great since you dont have to worry for OA's).

Ironically, despite this tactics has many vulnerabilities against spellcasters (AOE, counterspell, dispel magic, etc... - vulnerabilities you can protect from, by picking stuff like evasion, or investing in a good dex save, or by having counterspell at the ready, or ....), it can protect you from a very large number of spells that require the enemy to see the target (ie you).

I like to build assassin (or mage slayer to a lesser extent) builds around one or another variate of this tactics, as it can make you extremelly deadly against multiple enemies (beware enemies with truesight, blindesight, etc, in this case you bring the party with you and you work on your alternative strategy - that's right, you always must have a backup plan), and quite frankly I like the style of it.

Personally, I think the best way to utilize this tactics is with a 19 level ATrickster, but it takes so damn long for them to get greater invisibility.

A variant of this tactics, is to avoid the rogue levels, and play a battlemaster multiclassed in order to get access to either the darkness or the gr invisibility combo, and you also take the GWM feat the precision strike maneuvre, and the reposte maneuvre. Attack with advantage, be attacked with disadvantage, and use riposte strike as often as you can. Good tanking, exceptional damage.

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I also like to make hit and run sorcerer builds, hitting something with BB (ideally twinned to hit two targets, that's why sorcerer), and then run away (either with cunning action - yeah, I love the rogue 2 dip - or with mobile). If used correctly (aim for enemies that dont have any of your allies adjacent to them - teamwork is key), it is one of the best uses of sorcery points. Twinned BB is already good use of sp, building towards enabling the seconday effect to kick in, and in 2 targets, is an ideal use of resources.

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Something else I like, is dip 1 warlock level when I am playing a gish with several levels in a full caster class. Armor of agathys can be quite effective when used with a high enough spell slot (and by high enough I mean higher than 5th level slot - the spell was designed so that it is balanced for the warlock, who gets up to 5th level spell slots, so using it at a higher level spell slot, and given that the effective value of this spell scales exponentially with spell level, it can be a great use of a spell slot in the right fight). Just make sure you use it when you are about to face enemies who fight in melee, so that you will make the best use of the high level slot that you will use the spell with. And just have blade ward in your back pocket, it can come handy every now and then, according to the situation.

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My current assassin build (paladin2/rogue3/warlock1/sorcerer14) uses most of the above tactics, and I have a few other tricks up my sleeve as well.


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Another little thing that I like, is how warcaster combines with BB, to make your OAs hurt a lot. That pairs well with S&B builds that have access to command, typically OoA paladins who one day hope to reach level 20 (elder champion uses this tactics to rek everything).


A different way to go about it, is to combine warcaster + spell sniper (BB) + polearm master + BB to make sure that you will use your reaction as often as possible, to deal some very serious damage (secondary effect of BB kicks in). This can still work great for OoA paladins, though it takes a long time to set it up, but since polearm master already works great with the paladin chassis and since warcaster is a good investment for any single-classed OoA paladin with access to BB (halfelves variant, or human variant with the right feat) it may very well be worth it. You can set it up easier and earlier with an EK, though I have not looked it up in much detail. But to be honest, I am not sure if this tactics is all that worth it, since you will be missing on sentinel, and sentinel conbines well with polearm master. It does make your reactions very damaging though, so there is that. Now that I think of it, you can even add mobile in such an EK build, so that you can make sure that you can use you damaging reaction every turn, as well as the damage from the secondary effect of the BB you are using with your action. Hit something, move away at least 15 feet from it, the enemy starts moving towards you and takes the damage from BB, when he enters your reach (10 feet) you attack him with BB with your reaction, so if that hits he takes another full damage from BB (both normal and secondary effect). Keep doing that until the enemy dies or until you fall off a cliff.:smallbiggrin:
Vhuman EK can set it up at 8th level, and still have 4 ASIs remaining.

[MaxWilson]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I did search for "athletics" and only saw it mentioned once. I'm going to go ahead and claim that any build that intends to maximize options and fun decisions during combat MUST be proficient in both Athletics and Stealth, since there are so many cool things to do with both.

For Stealth, the important thing to remember is that you don't need Cunning Action to Hide. Cunning Action just lets you Hide while doing other things, but if you're e.g. in a long-range archery duel, Hiding with your normal action can sometimes be a better option than making attacks at disadvantage. While hidden, either creep closer or set up for an attack at advantage (to cancel disadvantage) depending on your preferred mode of engagement. E.g. a monk probably wants to stay at long range to fully exploit missile catch, but a Paladin probably wants to sneak close enough to turn it into a close-range combat.

Athletics is even more interesting and can be used for BFR in many environments.