[3.5] NPC Build Challenge

[Thurbane]

OK, theoretical/practical challenge.

How would you best optimize a core-only Cleric 9 and Wizard 9 to fight a group of level 8 PCs? For this purpose, core only means PHB, DMG and MM only, not any extras found in the SRD.

PrCs are allowed, so long as they are from above sources (i.e. DMG).

Stats are elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8).

No level adjusted races or templates please - the focus is on the class, not the race.

Party they will be facing is Duskblade 8, Bard 8, Warlock 8, Warblade 8, and Swashbuckler 4/Rogue 4 (Daring Outlaw). The only one with easy access to flight is the Warlock.

NPCs will have 12000gp worth of gear each.

NPCs are allowed to have helpers, but only if these could be gained through normal class methods (i.e. Familiar/Improved Familiar, Lesser Planar ally etc.). No Leadership/followers. Again, the focus is supposed to be on the classes.

If there's anything I haven't clarified properly, feel free to ask.

Cheers - T

[Zaq]

I don't have the inclination to build a whole statblock right now (sorry, but at least I'm being honest about it), but it seems to me that this is going to proceed differently if the NPCs in question have a sense of self-preservation (meaning that they're going to choose to cut and run if/when the battle turns against them rather than just staying and fighting to the death when they know they're losing). Do you intend for them to fight to the death, or do you intend for them to have an escape plan in place? They have access to teleportation magic at that level, so that's certainly not out of the question.

Also, will the NPCs know the PCs are coming? Will they have time to buff themselves, and if so, how much?

[Flickerdart]

NPCs are allowed to have helpers, but only if these could be gained through normal class methods (i.e. Familiar/Improved Familiar, Lesser Planar ally etc.).
How long do these guys have to prepare? Because between lesser planar binding and the various undead-printing spells, they're going to be packing all kinds of minions, and if they have unlimited time to prep, that means more minions.



Wizard:
Charm person/monster: Fighting the PCs counts as "something very dangerous" but not "suicidal" so this can get the wizzo some schmucks, at least.
Dominate person: Same idea, but better.
Summon monster: The short duration means that the wizard can only build up a menagerie of minions immediately before the encounter.
Command undead: Rather than wasting your control slots, use this spell for lots and lots of minions under your sway. Nonintelligent undead get no save, even.
Animate dead: Oh baby yes! 32 HD of zombies or skeletons under our control (on top of the ones we command with command undead). Pick some cool monsters and slap this on 'em.
Persistent image: The PCs don't have to know that a bunch of your monsters are illusory. Put these ones in the back where it won't be immediately apparent.
Planar binding, lesser: Oh baby, double yes! Bring in a couple of demons and elementals and whatnot. Since you can assign a closed-ended task (wait until these guys walk up and then help us murderize them) the duration is not limited so you can have as many of these guys as you can negotiate with. It's very easy to debuff their Charisma check and buff yours, so you can get minions for pennies.

Cleric:
Rebuke undead: Easy points - rebuke two 4HD undead.
Rebuke fire/water/air/earth: You have two domains, which can be elemental domains. Rebuke some elementals!
Summon monster: Same idea as the wizard - building up to the encounter, produce a bunch of guys.
Animate dead: At an earlier level than the wizard, too! 32HD of zombies or skeletons.
Planar ally, lesser: This isn't really worth it.
Dominate animal: If you took the Animal domain, you can bring along some dire lions or whatever. Between your plane shift and the wizard's teleport it won't be too hard to find some dire lions.
Command plants: With the Plant domain, you can instead command plant creatures. There are some really nasty ones out there.


In conclusion, the PCs get mobbed by half the Monster Manual and die.

[Thurbane]

I don't have the inclination to build a whole statblock right now (sorry, but at least I'm being honest about it), but it seems to me that this is going to proceed differently if the NPCs in question have a sense of self-preservation (meaning that they're going to choose to cut and run if/when the battle turns against them rather than just staying and fighting to the death when they know they're losing). Do you intend for them to fight to the death, or do you intend for them to have an escape plan in place? They have access to teleportation magic at that level, so that's certainly not out of the question.

Also, will the NPCs know the PCs are coming? Will they have time to buff themselves, and if so, how much?

Builds can be rough outlines, no need for a full stat block.

The NPCs can have a self-preservation plan in place, no problem.

Lets assume the NPCs are aware of the PCs through scrying or other means, and have a chance to get some buffs up. In the sake of fairness, let's only assume buffs with a duration of 90 minutes or more are allowed, and that they wouldn't have shorter term buffs up (i.e. no 1 minute/level or 1 round/level buffs).


How long do these guys have to prepare? Because between lesser planar binding and the various undead-printing spells, they're going to be packing all kinds of minions, and if they have unlimited time to prep, that means more minions.



Wizard:
Charm person/monster: Fighting the PCs counts as "something very dangerous" but not "suicidal" so this can get the wizzo some schmucks, at least.
Dominate person: Same idea, but better.
Summon monster: The short duration means that the wizard can only build up a menagerie of minions immediately before the encounter.
Command undead: Rather than wasting your control slots, use this spell for lots and lots of minions under your sway. Nonintelligent undead get no save, even.
Animate dead: Oh baby yes! 32 HD of zombies or skeletons under our control (on top of the ones we command with command undead). Pick some cool monsters and slap this on 'em.
Persistent image: The PCs don't have to know that a bunch of your monsters are illusory. Put these ones in the back where it won't be immediately apparent.
Planar binding, lesser: Oh baby, double yes! Bring in a couple of demons and elementals and whatnot. Since you can assign a closed-ended task (wait until these guys walk up and then help us murderize them) the duration is not limited so you can have as many of these guys as you can negotiate with. It's very easy to debuff their Charisma check and buff yours, so you can get minions for pennies.

Cleric:
Rebuke undead: Easy points - rebuke two 4HD undead.
Rebuke fire/water/air/earth: You have two domains, which can be elemental domains. Rebuke some elementals!
Summon monster: Same idea as the wizard - building up to the encounter, produce a bunch of guys.
Animate dead: At an earlier level than the wizard, too! 32HD of zombies or skeletons.
Planar ally, lesser: This isn't really worth it.
Dominate animal: If you took the Animal domain, you can bring along some dire lions or whatever. Between your plane shift and the wizard's teleport it won't be too hard to find some dire lions.
Command plants: With the Plant domain, you can instead command plant creatures. There are some really nasty ones out there.


In conclusion, the PCs get mobbed by half the Monster Manual and die.

I should have been more clear - only allies that wouldn't count against the CR of the encounter should be allowed (i.e. Familiar, Animal Companion etc.)

I believe that this disallows Planar Allies, so I'll edit the original post. Short term Summons and the like should be fine.

[Flickerdart]

Why do you think planar allies increase CR? After all, they were created only by using class features.

[Zaq]

Why do you think planar allies increase CR? After all, they were created only by using class features.

I submit that that's one of the most boneheaded parts of the (itself highly boneheaded) CR system.

I do not deny that it is 100% RAW. Just boneheaded RAW.

[AvatarVecna]

Both cleric and wizard are venerable elves, and sleep in shifts.

Once nighttime arrives, the Cleric uses "Scrying" on an animal companion travelling with them (or a familiar, or a special mount, or even just a pack animal); as long as it's known to travel with the PCs, this should give it a +5 on its Will save, which it'll probably fail because it's got a crap Will save. If it succeeds, have the Wizard use "Scrying" on it; if both of them fail, try again tomorrow from the safety of your tower or whatever. Once they successfully scry the PCs, they make sure the PCs are resting before they continue to the next step. The wizard casts Fly on both of them and Extended Greater Invisibility on both of them, and then Teleports them to a point 50 ft above wherever the adventurers are sleeping (presumably out under the stars, but it might be an inn or something).

At this point, it's surprise round time. The Cleric casts "Insect Plague" and the Wizard casts "Black Tentacles", the latter centered on the PCs camp. At this point, they're getting grappled by the tentacles, while the wizard flies towards the edge of their camp invisibly.

Time for the real round. Since the PCs are busy getting grappled and have nobody to target, they likely won't affect the Cleric or Wizard with their turns. The Cleric's spell finishes, and three swarms appear 30 ft above the PCs; the cleric flies down to where the wizard is, the Wizard casts Polymorph (9-headed Cyro-hydra) on the Cleric, the cleric uses their Standard action to bite the PCs while all heads are breathing cold damage cones on the PCs, and then the swarms descend towards the only visible targets in range (preferably the weakest 3) and start biting away.

Assuming the PCs failed both of their grapple checks but had a ~80% of making the cyrohydra saves and getting missed by the hydra heads, the party just took an average of 75 damage each. This should completely remove the lower HP party members from the equation unless they got lucky (oh yeah, and the two casters are still invisible).

On subsequent rounds, the hydra biting (with the more-than-occasional breath weapon), the swarm damage, and the grappling should be problematic. However, if the swarms are going down at this point for whatever reason, you may as well drop a Cloudkill on them and be done with it; it'll chip away at their Con mods for a few rounds, and any that manage to escape the cloud will fly into an angry invisible holy cyrohydra.

Once they're dead, loot their bodies for magic items (to keep or sell) and go home.

[Thurbane]

Why do you think planar allies increase CR? After all, they were created only by using class features.

While I concur that you are probably correct by RAW, I think it would seriously harm the underlying intention of my challenge.

I'm going to stick with Familiars, Special Mounts or Animal Companions only - and since we're talking core only builds for Cleric and Wizard, that pretty much limits it to Familiars/Improved Familiars...

Without relying on minionmancy, how good can a pair of level 9 Tier 1 casters be?


Both cleric and wizard are venerable elves, and sleep in shifts.

Once nighttime arrives, the Cleric uses "Scrying" on an animal companion travelling with them (or a familiar, or a special mount, or even just a pack animal); as long as it's known to travel with the PCs, this should give it a +5 on its Will save, which it'll probably fail because it's got a crap Will save. If it succeeds, have the Wizard use "Scrying" on it; if both of them fail, try again tomorrow from the safety of your tower or whatever. Once they successfully scry the PCs, they make sure the PCs are resting before they continue to the next step. The wizard casts Fly on both of them and Extended Greater Invisibility on both of them, and then Teleports them to a point 50 ft above wherever the adventurers are sleeping (presumably out under the stars, but it might be an inn or something).

At this point, it's surprise round time. The Cleric casts "Insect Plague" and the Wizard casts "Black Tentacles", the latter centered on the PCs camp. At this point, they're getting grappled by the tentacles, while the wizard flies towards the edge of their camp invisibly.

Time for the real round. Since the PCs are busy getting grappled and have nobody to target, they likely won't affect the Cleric or Wizard with their turns. The Cleric's spell finishes, and three swarms appear 30 ft above the PCs; the cleric flies down to where the wizard is, the Wizard casts Polymorph (9-headed Cyro-hydra) on the Cleric, the cleric uses their Standard action to bite the PCs while all heads are breathing cold damage cones on the PCs, and then the swarms descend towards the only visible targets in range (preferably the weakest 3) and start biting away.

Assuming the PCs failed both of their grapple checks but had a ~80% of making the cyrohydra saves and getting missed by the hydra heads, the party just took an average of 75 damage each. This should completely remove the lower HP party members from the equation unless they got lucky (oh yeah, and the two casters are still invisible).

On subsequent rounds, the hydra biting (with the more-than-occasional breath weapon), the swarm damage, and the grappling should be problematic. However, if the swarms are going down at this point for whatever reason, you may as well drop a Cloudkill on them and be done with it; it'll chip away at their Con mods for a few rounds, and any that manage to escape the cloud will fly into an angry invisible holy cyrohydra.

Once they're dead, loot their bodies for magic items (to keep or sell) and go home.

Now see, that's just plain nasty. Well done! :smallbiggrin:

[AvatarVecna]

Now see, that's just plain nasty. Well done! :smallbiggrin:

Much obliged. It's worth noting that this was done while they're asleep; if you don't have the time to wait for that, starting out with a circular Wall of Fire and Evard's Black Tentacles is also a valid start, and lets you AoE to your heart's content since you don't have to worry about taking out your swarms. It's also worth mentioning that I gave the party 80% odds of getting missed by hydra bites and 80% odds of making their saves, but I did not account for evasion, variable AC, or variable reflex saves in my calculations (it was just a general estimate). Final note on my method is that even a modicum of ER (Cold) will dramatically reduce the damage taken...which is why another option (once the PCs are all tentacled) is for the Wizard to Polymorph himself into a 9-headed pyrohydra as well; between the two breath-weapon-spewing hydras, the PCs should go down quickly even with a bit of ER to either element.

5th lvl spells are what really kills this party, because Scrying and Teleport become available, allowing for the infamous Scry-And-Die tactic; the cleric and wizard, if given as much time as they want to prepare, can learn all the strengths and weaknesses of the party and can tailor their spell selection to just absolutely owning this fight.

Hell, this fight goes well for them even if the PCs are awake and armored and not grappled by EBT; just a couple of cyro-/pyro-hydras going to town would do a great deal of damage in the first round, throwing Insect Plague, Evard's Black Tentacles, Wall Of Fire, and Cloudkill in there is just adding insult to injury...and once again, the fight really only realistically happens if/when the casters want it to, since the party doesn't really have a way to stop them from using Dimension Door or Teleport to escape a potential fight.

[TheBrassDuke]

Both cleric and wizard are venerable elves, and sleep in shifts.

Elves do not sleep.

[AvatarVecna]

Elves do not sleep.

No, but they "sleep" in a trance that is, as far as final effect is concerned, essentially identical other than being shorter. But you know, whatever.

[Zaq]

No, but they "sleep" in a trance that is, as far as final effect is concerned, essentially identical other than being shirter. But you know, whatever.

Huh. I could have sworn that elves were aware of their surroundings while trancing, but I can't find it now (either in the PHB or in Races of the Wild). Anyone know where I got that from?

[Thurbane]

Any other build/spell combo ideas?

Also, what about feats and gear selection?

[Pyromancer999]

Any other build/spell combo ideas?

Also, what about feats and gear selection?

Not sure on the build/spell level, aside from making the Wizard a specialist, if you know of an area in which specialization of school choice might be good. Also not bad to make use of sharing spells cast on self feature of the familiar for effects like dual-(insert powerful monster here) for Polymorph.

For equipment, can't go wrong with metamagic rods, or even a rod of negation if the PCs have a particularly powerful item that, if rendered unusable, could cause trouble. Maybe also some scrolls of higher-level spells to add some extra oomph to the encounter. On the borderline cheese side, you can never go wrong with a candle of invocation. Also can't go wrong with normal stat-boosting items for important stats, like Intelligence and Wisdom, for the wizard and cleric respectively.

If WBL isn't an issue, a ring of Wizardry or Spell Turning could be useful.

Other items might be useful, depending on the roles you want them to play.

[TheBrassDuke]

No, but they "sleep" in a trance that is, as far as final effect is concerned, essentially identical other than being shorter. But you know, whatever.


Huh. I could have sworn that elves were aware of their surroundings while trancing, but I can't find it now (either in the PHB or in Races of the Wild). Anyone know where I got that from?

They are completely aware of their surroundings and the trance is absolutely not sleep. Whatsoever. It's a meditative practice used by the Elves, and nothing else. Especially nothing comparable to sleep.

[AvatarVecna]

They are completely aware of their surroundings and the trance is absolutely not sleep. Whatsoever. It's a meditative practice used by the Elves, and nothing else. Especially nothing comparable to sleep.

The underlined part is wrong; trance is compared in multiple ways to sleep by the Player's Handbook:


Elves do not sleep, as members of the other common races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day. An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep. While meditating, an elf dreams, though these dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. The Common word for an elf’s meditation is “trance,” as in “four hours of trance."

Dreams are pretty sleep-like, although these dreeps are different, but it has the same beneficial effect as sleep does.

Of course, the bolded part of your post has no basis in RAW either; conspiciously absent from that quote (which is everything in the elf description relating to Trance) is anything indicating that elves are fully aware of their surroundings while in their Trance. They are "dreaming", and it's described as a "deep trance", so there's evidence to suggest that they are not aware of their surroundings while in a Trance.

Of course, maybe you've got a source that says otherwise?

[Eloel]

Alternative 1:
Start invisible, wait till they're clumped closely packed, drop Cloudkill (Wizard) followed by Wall of Stone (Cleric) to fence them in on surprise round.

Alternative 2:
Spend all money on symbols of sleep. Drop Mind Fog, show them the symbols, coup de grace all of them.

[TheBrassDuke]

The underlined part is wrong; trance is compared in multiple ways to sleep by the Player's Handbook:



Dreams are pretty sleep-like, although these dreeps are different, but it has the same beneficial effect as sleep does.

Of course, the bolded part of your post has no basis in RAW either; conspiciously absent from that quote (which is everything in the elf description relating to Trance) is anything indicating that elves are fully aware of their surroundings while in their Trance. They are "dreaming", and it's described as a "deep trance", so there's evidence to suggest that they are not aware of their surroundings while in a Trance.

Of course, maybe you've got a source that says otherwise?

Anyone who has ever truly meditated and entered trance will know that you have full awareness of both your surroundings and your well-being, and so it isn't a stretch to say Elves have this ability; in fact, it is probably superior to ours. I don't need your RAW to know they possess this, because we do.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, how about a variant on the wall-and-tentacle scheme: if the wizard is an incantatrix, edit: which is not core, see below for comments/fix.they can persist Evard's black tentacles and vortex of teeth, erect a wall of stone around the area, and flood the area, cast deeper darkness and persistent silence, and add a big rock on top with stone shape. The fluff on vortex of teeth is basically 'swarm of force piranhas', which, together with the tentacles, water, and lack of light, nicely emulates a Lovecraftian abyss.

It's probably best if you do the non-lethal spells first: create the silence first, then the darkness, then the walls. At this point, the party is hopefully still asleep. Then, you prepare the ceiling, leaving a small hole, through which you cast tentacles, vortex, and water, before sealing it up.

If there is a sentry, you'll need to put them asleep, or take them out quietly some other way. Possibly, an illusion that perfectly matches the surroundings, sans wizard/cleric, will do.


Edit: Hey, idea! Leave a decanter of endless water inside the stone prison, set to geyser! That should raise the pressure to deep-ocean levels soon enough.


Edit edit: With three spells to persist (deeper darkness already lasts 1 day/level), you can have the cleric cast them, and the incantatrix persist them. The party has three rounds to react, or they all die - one for Evard's black tentacles, one for vortex of teeth, and one for stone shape. Silence and deeper darkness are already up, as is wall of stone.

It should take about three, maybe four rounds to get started, so the party gets some checks to wake up, as well. Any sentries only need to be subdued or misled for three rounds, too. On round one, the cleric casts silence, and the incantatrix persists (Cooperative Metamagic). On round two, the cleric casts wall of stone, the incantatrix applies twin spell, or widen spell, or something like that. On round three, they both cast stone shape.

[AvatarVecna]

Anyone who has ever truly meditated and entered trance will know that you have full awareness of both your surroundings and your well-being, and so it isn't a stretch to say Elves have this ability; in fact, it is probably superior to ours. I don't need your RAW to know they possess this, because we do.

And if that's how you choose to rule it in your home games, then power to you; however, when we're discussing hypothetical scenarios taking place within a game system like this, we pay heed only to the universal rules of the system, because while different DMs can incorporate different houserules, they will all be based on the base system the group has agreed to play in.

And the default in this system is that an elf has no ability to remain as aware of their surroundings while in a Trance as they are when actively on guard duty.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, how about a variant on the wall-and-tentacle scheme: if the wizard is an incantatrix, they can persist Evard's black tentacles and vortex of teeth, erect a wall of stone around the area, and flood the area, cast deeper darkness and persistent silence, and add a big rock on top with stone shape. The fluff on vortex of teeth is basically 'swarm of force piranhas', which, together with the tentacles, water, and lack of light, nicely emulates a Lovecraftian abyss.

It's probably best if you do the non-lethal spells first: create the silence first, then the darkness, then the walls. At this point, the party is hopefully still asleep. Then, you prepare the ceiling, leaving a small hole, through which you cast tentacles, vortex, and water, before sealing it up.

If there is a sentry, you'll need to put them asleep, or take them out quietly some other way. Possibly, an illusion that perfectly matches the surroundings, sans wizard/cleric, will do.


Edit: Hey, idea! Leave a decanter of endless water inside the stone prison, set to geyser! That should raise the pressure to deep-ocean levels soon enough.


Edit edit: With three spells to persist (deeper darkness already lasts 1 day/level), you can have the cleric cast them, and the incantatrix persist them. The party has three rounds to react, or they all die - one for Evard's black tentacles, one for vortex of teeth, and one for stone shape. Silence and deeper darkness are already up, as is wall of stone.

It should take about three, maybe four rounds to get started, so the party gets some checks to wake up, as well. Any sentries only need to be subdued or misled for three rounds, too. On round one, the cleric casts silence, and the incantatrix persists (Cooperative Metamagic). On round two, the cleric casts wall of stone, the incantatrix applies twin spell, or widen spell, or something like that. On round three, they both cast stone shape.

While certainly an interesting plan, there's a couple snags, given the challenge presented...or rather, one snag repeatedly: Incantatrix, Persistent Spell, and Vortex of Teeth (as well as Twin Spell, but that was less integral to the concept) are not Core material, which was the challenge.


How would you best optimize a core-only Cleric 9 and Wizard 9 to fight a group of level 8 PCs? For this purpose, core only means PHB, DMG and MM only, not any extras found in the SRD.

It doesn't totally ruin the idea, but it renders the idea a lot less efficient.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It doesn't totally ruin the idea, but it renders the idea a lot less efficient.
I don't think I've ever not forgotten source restrictions :smalleek:.

Well, if core is what you have, then I suppose you can try the same thing through other means. The walls, ceiling, water, and darkness still work. Silence can be attached to unhallow, which gives it a year-long duration. Spike stones (1 hour/level) can be used to deal damage, and fits the stone prison theme. Animate dead can get you some skeletal swarms, ideally hellwasp swarms (you'd have to collect them in Gehanna with plane shift), but centipedes will do, if that's not available. Exoskeletons do count as skeletons for animate dead, right? What's the price on a single-use decanter of endless water (e.g. one you can activate once, but never deactivate)?

Ah well, I can't help it if I keep suggesting persistent vortex of teeth, it's just too fun!

[Thurbane]

If the Wizard is a specialist Conjuror, which schools would be best to ban?

What would be the best domains for the Cleric?

[dextercorvia]

If the Wizard is a specialist Conjuror, which schools would be best to ban?

What would be the best domains for the Cleric?

I wouldn't specialize for this. Remember, these guys only have to last one fight. The additional spells per day will not be worth the reduced flexibility in this case.

Focus on Flight (Overland and Air Walk or share polymorph with a familiar for a Griffon). Box them in with Wall of Stone. Ideally a couple make their reflex save, then you have divided the party and can pick those off while the others work to get out of the box.

For the cleric: Luck, Travel, or Plant (Wall of Thorns is decent BFC).

[TheBrassDuke]

And if that's how you choose to rule it in your home games, then power to you; however, when we're discussing hypothetical scenarios taking place within a game system like this, we pay heed only to the universal rules of the system, because while different DMs can incorporate different houserules, they will all be based on the base system the group has agreed to play in.

And the default in this system is that an elf has no ability to remain as aware of their surroundings while in a Trance as they are when actively on guard duty.

Woof. I should probably actually apologize for being hostile yesterday--I barely remember this dispute. In a case of irony, I have sleep deprivation, and was probably trying to defend my meditative habits a little too much. I am sorry. Please run this as you will, and ignore my ramblings. I'm a grumpy thing when I'm tired.