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JNAProductions
2016-02-18, 05:01 PM
Moved to Dungeon Master's Guild, at least temporarily. I have a saved copy on google docs, so don't worry, this class won't be lost to the ether.

And is now a Pay What You Want item! Download it as a free PDF all you would like, right here (http://www.dmsguild.com/product/176460/Dragonfire-Adept-Base-Class-For-5E-Updated?src=slider_view).

Been updated slightly for better formatting.

AvatarVecna
2016-02-18, 05:46 PM
Only able to give it a cursory once-over right now, and the only thing that immediately popped out to me was "2 level dip for up to 5 expertise skills" for either a carefully-built half elf DFA (who could get all those skills trained with a bit of work) or a half elf lore bard wanting some cheap bonuses.

But seriously, adding 5 trained skills is a lot...especially when they stack if you're already trained in those skills. Maybe it's just me though...

Anyway, that's the only thing that jumped out at me immediately. I'll give it a more thorough examination later when I have the time.

JNAProductions
2016-02-18, 05:49 PM
Changed to a single, because yeah, that's a lot more in 5E than it is in 3E.

JNAProductions
2016-02-18, 06:37 PM
Added Regional and Lair effects.

Edit: Added Cloud Shape to Least Invocations.

Steampunkette
2016-02-18, 07:53 PM
I feel like Breath Attack doesn't need multiple separate tiers rather than a single ability with an advancement scheme. It just feels a bit clunky to break it into chunks like that.

I also feel, perhaps erroneously, that the save against it should be -either- the Proficiency Bonus -or- the Constitution Modifier, but not both. I realize that breaks out of line with most other special abilities of classes and spellcasting in particular, but with an at will 1-4d6 with such a large area it might be better to reduce the overall save value.

After all, the Dragonfire Adept is almost always going to be using it in any combat situation as they lack spellcasting ability or the ability to make multiple attacks.

In retrospect, that is probably my biggest complaint about the class: It is so focused on the Breath Weapon as to feel a bit shallow. I realize that is harsh, especially with lair actions available, but it's true. Breathe as an action, lair effect bonus. Repeat. Maybe move in between them.

Maybe give them some claw attacks and a bite to vary things up a bit and give them some non-breath options in combat, particularly in situations where a breath weapon is a liability rather than a boon... Otherwise there will be a -lot- of singed party members in the world.

... I'm sorry that I came in with so much bad to say about the class... I don't mean to. I think it's a great idea. It just feels so centered on it's breath weapon that there aren't other reasonable options available for it.

JNAProductions
2016-02-18, 07:55 PM
I feel like Breath Attack doesn't need multiple separate tiers rather than a single ability with an advancement scheme. It just feels a bit clunky to break it into chunks like that.

I also feel, perhaps erroneously, that the save against it should be -either- the Proficiency Bonus -or- the Constitution Modifier, but not both. I realize that breaks out of line with most other special abilities of classes and spellcasting in particular, but with an at will 1-4d6 with such a large area it might be better to reduce the overall save value.

After all, the Dragonfire Adept is almost always going to be using it in any combat situation as they lack spellcasting ability or the ability to make multiple attacks.

In retrospect, that is probably my biggest complaint about the class: It is so focused on the Breath Weapon as to feel a bit shallow. I realize that is harsh, especially with lair actions available, but it's true. Breathe as an action, lair effect bonus. Repeat. Maybe move in between them.

Maybe give them some claw attacks and a bite to vary things up a bit and give them some non-breath options in combat, particularly in situations where a breath weapon is a liability rather than a boon... Otherwise there will be a -lot- of singed party members in the world.

... I'm sorry that I came in with so much bad to say about the class... I don't mean to. I think it's a great idea. It just feels so centered on it's breath weapon that there aren't other reasonable options available for it.

I specifically asked for critiquing. I'm not going to poo on you for doing what I asked.

Thank you for your words. I'll add in a Natural Attack and some form of buff (for metallics) or debuff (for chromatics).

JNAProductions
2016-02-18, 08:03 PM
Added Natural Weapons, Improved Natural Weapons, Greater Natural Weapons, Flurry, Improved Flurry, Fear Me!, and Fear Not.

DracoKnight
2016-02-18, 08:07 PM
Hit points at 1st level should be 8 + Con mod.

JNAProductions
2016-02-18, 08:10 PM
Hit points at 1st level should be 8 + Con mod.

Thank you.

Added two new Lesser Invocations (thanks to AvatarVecna).

Steampunkette
2016-02-18, 08:11 PM
So at 15th level we're looking at 4 natural attacks, if I'm reading this right.

Two main hand (plus mod) two off-hand (no modifier).

Each dealing 1d8 damage.

That's definitely a better option on single target situations, and possibly in group combat situations, than just breath-spam. I like it a lot.

It's less damage than a Monk's abilities, but it doesn't use a resource (making it more available) and it has the opportunity cost of Lair Actions.

Very nice, I think.

JNAProductions
2016-02-18, 08:33 PM
No, you're looking at three. Two with modifiers, one without.

But it's at d8 instead of d6, and offers an ability modifier twice instead of once (chromatic) or not at all (metallic).

Edit: Added more invocations.

Steampunkette
2016-02-18, 09:05 PM
Ack! Sorry. Improved is at 20. My mistake. 4 attacks at 20, two main two off. d8s all.

Very cool.

JNAProductions
2016-02-18, 09:38 PM
So does it feel good? Anything it's lacking? Any ideas for more Invocations? Anything unbalanced?

Steampunkette
2016-02-18, 10:03 PM
Maybe some ribbons. How about...

Draconian Greed: The Dragonfire that burns in your breath also sears your soul, and like all dragons you seek material gain. You have a preternatural ability to sense treasure and seek it. This functions in a manner similar to magic detection but applies only to treasures or collections of wealth within a 5ft cube worth 500gp or greater and is always active.

JNAProductions
2016-02-18, 10:14 PM
Maybe some ribbons. How about...

Draconian Greed: The Dragonfire that burns in your breath also sears your soul, and like all dragons you seek material gain. You have a preternatural ability to sense treasure and seek it. This functions in a manner similar to magic detection but applies only to treasures or collections of wealth within a 5ft cube worth 500gp or greater and is always active.

Added Draconian Greed.

Steampunkette
2016-02-18, 10:15 PM
How about an Invocation that changes cones into lines or lines into cones?

Sweep Breath: Pulling your head sharply to the side as you exhale, you sweep your breath in a cone across your targets. Halve the distance and make a 45 degree angle cone.

Narrowed Breath: Using your hands to shape the exhalation you narrow your breath weapon, significantly, increasing it's reach. 15ft wide line, add half your range to the total range.

How about an invocation to fire smaller bursts?

Spit Breath Weapon: By limiting how much of your breath you release you can blast smaller areas with your breath weapon. Change the area to 1d6 10ft squares within 120ft.

Could do some Natural Weapon invocations.

Tail Sweep: You grow a thick draconic tail when you take this invocation. It deals the same damage as your other natural weapons and may be used interchangeably with them. You may also use your tail to make a special attack action Tail Sweep. Choose 4 adjacent squares and 2 squares within 10ft that are adjacent to at least one of the four squares you've already chosen. Make a single attack roll against all targets in the area. On a success they take normal damage and must make a Dex or Str save to avoid being tripped.

Elemental Bite: The power of your ancestry cannot be denied, and your bite attack now deals damage of one die size larger and gains the elemental descriptor of your breath weapon.

JNAProductions
2016-02-18, 10:33 PM
How about an Invocation that changes cones into lines or lines into cones?

Sweep Breath: Pulling your head sharply to the side as you exhale, you sweep your breath in a cone across your targets. Halve the distance and make a 45 degree angle cone.

Narrowed Breath: Using your hands to shape the exhalation you narrow your breath weapon, significantly, increasing it's reach. 15ft wide line, add half your range to the total range.

How about an invocation to fire smaller bursts?

Spit Breath Weapon: By limiting how much of your breath you release you can blast smaller areas with your breath weapon. Change the area to 1d6 10ft squares within 120ft.

Could do some Natural Weapon invocations.

Tail Sweep: You grow a thick draconic tail when you take this invocation. It deals the same damage as your other natural weapons and may be used interchangeably with them. You may also use your tail to make a special attack action Tail Sweep. Choose 4 adjacent squares and 2 squares within 10ft that are adjacent to at least one of the four squares you've already chosen. Make a single attack roll against all targets in the area. On a success they take normal damage and must make a Dex or Str save to avoid being tripped.

Elemental Bite: The power of your ancestry cannot be denied, and your bite attack now deals damage of one die size larger and gains the elemental descriptor of your breath weapon.

You can actually decide whether it's a line or a cone already.

Spit Weapon is now Projectile Breath, and simply makes it a small burst anywhere within 120'.

Tail Sweep is now Sweeping Tail, and targets all adjacent enemies as well as adding a bludgeoning weapon.

Elemental Bite is now Elemental Blows.

Thanks!

Steampunkette
2016-02-18, 10:45 PM
Oh! I thought it was one or the other, once selected, for the entire career. Didn't know you could change at will!

JNAProductions
2016-02-18, 11:00 PM
Oh! I thought it was one or the other, once selected, for the entire career. Didn't know you could change at will!

No, you can change at-will. I imagine cone will be used most often.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-02-19, 02:47 AM
As requested, a review from Ninja_Prawn...

All the while I was reading this, I was thinking "I hope those invocations are strong and varied, because this class lacks power and options." Then, when the invocations didn't satisfy me, I was all ready to comment - until I saw "Chromatic." It totally wasn't clear to me that chromatic/metallic were the subclasses... :smallsigh:

So, I'm happy with the power. I think the addition of natural weapons is important, and the breath weapon looks about the right scale for a front-line at-will.

My first complaint is that the natural armour is too granular. Especially at levels 1 and 2, when you most need the protection, it's just not there. Obviously you can't front-load all the abilities, but I'm sure there's something at level 1 right now that can be pushed back. If not, the metallic +1 bonus should start at level 1. Hmm... an Invocation that makes your skin spiky (in the mold of Armour of Agathys) might make it more interesting.

My second, and probably larger, complaint is that it just looks very predictable. Every dragonfire adept will use their breath weapon every round against multiple targets, or their claws against a single target (I can't see why they'd ever bite). Every one will use natural armour. Almost all will pick the flight invocation. There just aren't enough choices... it'd be like playing as a monster stat block all the time (and not being able to switch creature like a druid can). I'm not sure what the best remedy is. Maybe another subclass (shadow would be obvious, but you could also resurrect time dragons, or look at dragonkin like pseudo and faerie dragons). Or more invocations that actually open up more tactical options.

Minor quibble: you either need to define "knowledge check" or reword it to "Intelligence based skill check" or something.

JNAProductions
2016-02-19, 12:22 PM
Reworded Draconic Knowledge to Intelligence based skills, excluding Investigation.

Now, with that minor error fixed, what would you advise adding in order to make the class more varied? Obviously some Invocations that change the game a little more (I think Sweeping Tail is a good example of that) but what else? I'm kinda drawing a blank on what to do.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-02-19, 12:42 PM
I'll have a think about it when I get home (on the train now), but I'm 100% writing a shadow subclass if you don't do it. I think that, on its own, would help a lot.

Planar

Sub-colours. Astral (force, bright), Faerie (psychic, dim), Shadow (necrotic, darkness)

Merge with Environment. At 1st level your innate connection to your environment enables you to merge seamlessly with it. When you are in the light type specified for your sub-colour, you may use an action to become invisible. This effect ends if you move or perform any actions or bonus actions.

. At 6th level...

. At 11th level...

Planar Wanderer. At 14th level you gain the ability to cast the Plane Shift spell once per day. You require no material components for this spell, but you may only target yourself and your allies.

Terrible Breath. When you reach 17th level you gain additional options for your breath weapon. Every time you use it, choose one of the following conditions: blinded, deafened, petrified, poisoned, restrained. Anyone who fails their save suffers from that condition for the next minute. They may repeat the save at the end of each of their turns, recovering on a success.
???

JNAProductions
2016-02-19, 01:57 PM
I'll write one when I get home. Don't feel you need to.

JNAProductions
2016-02-19, 02:36 PM
Added Shadow subclass.

Edit: Added tha tank subclass, Dragon Turtle.

PoeticDwarf
2016-02-20, 03:55 AM
To be fair. I think this is pretty amazing. Problem is that I feel like this dragonic class doesn't have dmg dragons should have. The breath weapon is at-will but deals cantrip damage and the natural weapons end up doing 4d8+20 (yes the level 20 feature doesn't care about light it is just bonus action attacks) but like a monk... No ways to improve and costs bonus action. Especially the breath could become better.

I think in-combat this class just doesn't have enough offensive and out of combat it is still worse than a warlock so a little buff would help, but I still think it's great. Features fit and are often balanced

JNAProductions
2016-02-20, 10:34 AM
To be fair. I think this is pretty amazing. Problem is that I feel like this dragonic class doesn't have dmg dragons should have. The breath weapon is at-will but deals cantrip damage and the natural weapons end up doing 4d8+20 (yes the level 20 feature doesn't care about light it is just bonus action attacks) but like a monk... No ways to improve and costs bonus action. Especially the breath could become better.

I think in-combat this class just doesn't have enough offensive and out of combat it is still worse than a warlock so a little buff would help, but I still think it's great. Features fit and are often balanced

It's an AoE damage, so it's absolutely fantastic at clearing out groups of mooks. I could make the damage better, but part of the original DFA was an at-will Breath Attack, and in order to make that not game breaking, the damage has to be low.

Good point on the level 20 feature-I'll add an addendum stating that you don't get your ability modifier on those attacks. (This class is not supposed to be better than a Monk at unarmed combat.)

PoeticDwarf
2016-02-20, 01:06 PM
It's an AoE damage, so it's absolutely fantastic at clearing out groups of mooks. I could make the damage better, but part of the original DFA was an at-will Breath Attack, and in order to make that not game breaking, the damage has to be low.

Good point on the level 20 feature-I'll add an addendum stating that you don't get your ability modifier on those attacks. (This class is not supposed to be better than a Monk at unarmed combat.)
A cantrip can as example deal d8 damage on a group. No half damage but it is a cantrip. 5d6 would not be gamebreaking and the damage is lower than that of a monk, yes even then. I asked for improved damage:smallsmile: or giving something as TWF style as invocation at least

JNAProductions
2016-02-20, 01:10 PM
You're saying bump the damage up? Huh.

Submortimer recently informed me via PM that he feels it might be overpowered, even in its weak state, so I'm not going to up the damage quite yet. I've got a couple of games I'll hopefully be able to playtest this in, so if it feels weak, I'll be able to adjust it then.

Speaking of which, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?478949-I-Want-To-Playtest-A-Class-5E) right here is the recruitment/GM needed thread for the playtest game.

Submortimer
2016-02-20, 01:22 PM
The AoE damage is way over the top good. 1d6 damage to a horde of bad guys doesn't seem like much,but being able to do this at will would absolutely trivialize most fights up to around level 6.

1. It's save for HALF, not save for none. Cantrip level damage or not, you are guarateeing damage every round. With something like Offensive fury, you could be looking at 6-7 damage per breath attack automatically every round.

2. The range is twice that of burning hands starting out. That's a LOT of area to cover, and also a massive drawback for a low level party, since they have to stay far away from you.

Amusingly, you also hamstring yourself in the single target damage situation: since you're stuck with only d6s, you quickly become outclassed by almost everyone else against bigger, meaner targets who either auto save or have high enough dexterity that they only fail on a 1.

So, what do?

Here's what do.

Make it a cantrip. If you just want it to be pure damage, give it a d10 damage die, otherwise give it an element based rider and drop the damage die to a d8. For at will, you can choose between ranged spell attack or save for none.

1/short rest, you can breathe a 15' cone or 30' line, dealing your breath damage or half on a save. This increases every time you gain a new damage die for your breath attack, topping out at 60' cone and 120' line.

For different shapes, make them invocations, and make them use able a number of time per rest that is appropriate:
- Ranged Spell attack, all creatures within 5 feet of the target take half the damage dealt, or non on a successful save. At Will.
- 20' radius burst. 1/short rest.
- target another creature within 5' with a second Ranged Spell attack. At will.
- twin breath attack (target two different creatures, not within 5 feet). Cha bonus/short rest, minimum 1.

I think you see where I am going. This all fits into precedent already established, makes you less astoundingly OP against armies of bandits, and more capable of taking on actual dragons when you get to that level.

Other things:

I feel like the "Cha Damage to breath" should be something available to all, but with the high AC bonuses available to the Dragon turtle it could be too much.

Speaking of, do you get the Hardened Shell bonus if you are using a shield? You should specify that.

Actual Flight at level 9 is far to early. I'd recommend making it some sort of slow fall or glide ability (you drop at normal rate, but can move up to your speed horizontally while doing s, and you reduce falling damage bay an amount equal to twice your level).

Those are the broad strokes. I know it seems like I'm pushing you to make this more like the warlock, but that's kinda what the old Dragonfire Adept was like.

It's still really cool, but it just needs some work.

Submortimer
2016-02-20, 01:27 PM
A cantrip can as example deal d8 damage on a group. No half damage but it is a cantrip. 5d6 would not be gamebreaking and the damage is lower than that of a monk, yes even then. I asked for improved damage:smallsmile: or giving something as TWF style as invocation at least

There are only three that I know of: Acid Splash (which hits TWO creatures next to each other for d6), sword burst, and thunder clap (last two hit all creatures around you, but again, at a d6). d8 on a group save for half is way outside the realm of cantrips.

JNAProductions
2016-02-20, 01:31 PM
The one thing I do NOT want to remove is at-will Breath Attacks. That's core to the class. So any recommendations about that can be kept to yourself, because they will not be listened to.

I think that save for none might be reasonable at lower levels, but honestly, even with Offensive Fury, you're averaging 3 damage on a save at level 1. That's 3 turns to kill a basic goblin on average, if he keeps making his saves. 4, if you roll bad.

Hardened Shell does not apply if you have a shield.

I don't think Flight at level 9 is that bad. It's earlier than any other class gets it for permanent, but is 4 levels after Fly comes online. Maybe make it so you can only fly with up to 5*Strength mod pounds of weight, so there's no carrying allies with?

One last note-you compared it to your Witcher class in a PM, and specifically Igni. Wasn't Igni 3d6 damage, save for half, at low levels? That's a whole heck of a lot more potent than the DFA's breath.

And one request-if you have any Invocation ideas, please let me know. I need more of them.

Submortimer
2016-02-20, 02:12 PM
Alright, but don't say I didn't warn you :-)

Remember, try not to let flavor get in the way of balance. Igni started out as cantrip level damage, but as an at will AoE it was just too much at the level he got it. The way it is now, it hits for an initial blast, then additional damage later, but starts out at 1d6 with a 5 ft. Range. What you are thinking of specifically is Burning Hands.

In any case, playtest it and see how it fares.

JNAProductions
2016-02-20, 02:14 PM
Alright, but don't say I didn't warn you :-)

Remember, try not to let flavor get in the way of balance. Igni started out as cantrip level damage, but as an at will AoE it was just too much at the level he got it. The way it is now, it hits for an initial blast, then additional damage later, but starts out at 1d6 with a 5 ft. Range. What you are thinking of specifically is Burning Hands.

In any case, playtest it and see how it fares.

That's fair. I think it's balanced, but like I said, I've yet to playtest it. (Seriously, if anyone would be willing to DM it, that would be fantastic.)

Also, it should be noted, Endured allies are immune to your breath attack, so they can be in the thick of it while you breathe.

PoeticDwarf
2016-02-20, 03:49 PM
There are only three that I know of: Acid Splash (which hits TWO creatures next to each other for d6), sword burst, and thunder clap (last two hit all creatures around you, but again, at a d6). d8 on a group save for half is way outside the realm of cantrips.

Woops your right. Even at d6, breath weapon also has d6 and just dmg on succesful, but 7 damage is weak. Level 17 when cantrips deal 4d6 on multiple enemies the breath deals 3d6. And this is THE dragonfire adept feature. How would 5d6 be too strong

GanonBoar
2016-02-20, 03:54 PM
How would 5d6 be too strong
Personally, I think the breath weapon is at a decent level of power right now and I definitely disagree with making it 5d6, mostly because my beloved Dragonborn have only superior damage right now to hold over the DFA's breath-they can only do it once a rest while the DFA's is at will and you can choose the AOE and damage type each time as well. Also, they have natural melee weapons that do ok damage as well, and there are no AoE cantrips as far as I'm aware. That alone makes the damage justified.

JNAProductions
2016-02-20, 04:26 PM
Yeah, and I'd rather err on the side of "too weak" than "too strong".

Especially since you get a better damage type at 7, a rider at 15, and ignoring resistance/immunity at 20.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-02-20, 04:34 PM
Regarding the balance of the breath weapon, I feel it's ok. Clearly it'd be easy to tip it over the edge into overpowered, but as-written, this doesn't alarm me. I will think of some invocations at some point. My brain just isn't in the right mood at the moment.

JNAProductions
2016-02-20, 04:38 PM
Added Enhanced Lair and Regional effects as an invocation.

JNAProductions
2016-02-20, 05:11 PM
Added a little fluff.

PoeticDwarf
2016-02-21, 03:37 AM
Personally, I think the breath weapon is at a decent level of power right now and I definitely disagree with making it 5d6, mostly because my beloved Dragonborn have only superior damage right now to hold over the DFA's breath-they can only do it once a rest while the DFA's is at will and you can choose the AOE and damage type each time as well. Also, they have natural melee weapons that do ok damage as well, and there are no AoE cantrips as far as I'm aware. That alone makes the damage justified.

4d6 against anything around you for a VERY SMALL PART of a feat or a VERY SMALL PART of a one level dip vs 4d6 or half on a group of enemies in a slightly better area but slower progress. On level 17 you are going to use it up to once a day. On level 20 maybe twice

Dragonborn is no reason, they should get a buff anyway. And in my experience even the 5d6 weapon is just used few tines a day

That said, I understand why people don't want to change it but in my opinion the class is now in combat a monk with less damage and without ki abilities as stunning strike.

weaseldust
2016-02-21, 10:07 AM
On the breath weapon: how about if you could choose to increase the damage at the expense of only targeting a single creature? That way it could remain relevant against high-level threats that aren't hordes of mooks.

At the same time, the size of the cone you can affect seems like a bit much. Imagine you are in a siege and defending a trench against ordinary goblins - being able to clear out several hundred square feet of goblin infantry at will at level 1 feels inappropriate (you'd get 450 sq. ft, or up to 18 goblins if they aren't so tightly packed as to enter each other's spaces). For comparison, the Sun Soul Monk eventually gets an AoE power that can be used for free, but only at mid levels.

I'd suggest making it a 10ft cone/20ft line at level 1. If you gave the choice of targeting a single creature within 20 feet for 2d6 damage instead, that would be better than any cantrip and about in line with a weapon attack (bearing in mind you still deal half damage on a successful save).

JNAProductions
2016-02-21, 12:39 PM
50/50 chance of killing the average gobling at level 1 assuming they fail their save, you have a Charisma of 16+, and you're a Chromatic DFA.

0 chance of killing the average gobling at level 1 if you aren't Chromatic or they make their save.

And a lot of goblins have bows. You said you can attempt to fry 18 goblins? They're all in range to hit you with shortbows. AC is going to be around 13, so at +2 to hit, 9 goblins hit. 1d6 damage, 3.5 average, deals 31.5 damage. Enough to instagib you.

You aren't stopping sieges at level 1. Not without serious assistance.

That being said, I like the idea of being able to single-target damage. I don't think that'll be available at level 1, but when the breath attack first improves. Thanks for the idea!

Edit: I can't really figure out how to make single-target work without being too powerful, relative to cantrips and fightery folk.

Submortimer
2016-02-21, 05:55 PM
Couple things:

1. Make the +cha to damage an invocation. The way it is right now, i would NEVER pick metallic, Dragon turtle, or Shadow. that boost to damage is just too beneficial to pass up.

2. Make Natural Armor 13+dex, equivalent to the similarly themed Draconic Sorcerer's ability.

Least Invocation: Focused Breath
You may make your breath attack as a ranged spell attack at a single creature you can see within 120 feet. If you do so, the damage die for your breath weapon increases to d10.

That is right in line with giving them Fire bolt, so you're not overstepping any boundaries.

JNAProductions
2016-02-21, 05:59 PM
Couple things:

1. Make the +cha to damage an invocation. The way it is right now, i would NEVER pick metallic, Dragon turtle, or Shadow. that boost to damage is just too beneficial to pass up.

2. Make Natural Armor 13+dex, equivalent to the similarly themed Draconic Sorcerer's ability.

Least Invocation: Focused Breath
You may make your breath attack as a ranged spell attack at a single creature you can see within 120 feet. If you do so, the damage die for your breath weapon increases to d10.

That is right in line with giving them Fire bolt, so you're not overstepping any boundaries.

It's 3-5 points of damage. I'll consider it, but then it becomes an invocation tax. I think it's okay as is.

I like the invocation, though. Yoinking it. (And thank you for it.)

Nifft
2016-02-21, 07:17 PM
Things I like:
- Dragonfire Adept! Yay!
- The idea of using Lair Effects and Regional Effects for the Dragonfire Adept.
- The Chromatic vs Metallic subclasses are a cool idea.
- DRAGON TURTLE, that's awesome.

Things I don't like:
- Breath weapon is limited to a single damage type until level 7.
- Breath weapon is low damage in a large area, and in combo that means long fights without many tactical options. That sounds boring to me.
- Limiting the character to a single color is more like the Dragon Shaman than the Dragonfire Adept, and the specific color abilities aren't balanced -- some are mere ribbons, while others are mechanically powerful.
- Ignoring immunity is a sign that you *know* you limited the damage types too much.

- - -

What I would do:
- At 1st level, your breath is a 30 ft. line of Fire. It deals 1d8 damage (Dex save for half).
- Use the 3.5e Breath Effect mechanism -- so, at level 2, you can pick one alternate damage type (Cold, Lightning, or Acid).
- At level 5, the damage increases to 2d8, and you can choose to exhale in a 15 ft. cone instead of a 30 ft. line.
- At level 8, you get another of the level 5 or level 2 breath effects.
- At level 10, your range increases: your cones are 30 ft. and your lines are 60 ft.
... etc.

Hmm.

I'd probably try to use the Warlock skeleton, too.

I might do a version of this. Do you mind if I steal some of your Region and Lair ideas?

JNAProductions
2016-02-21, 07:19 PM
Feel free to.

Also, the class has (possibly temporarily) been taken down because it's now available on the Dungeon Master's Guild.

Nifft
2016-02-21, 10:51 PM
Feel free to.

Also, the class has (possibly temporarily) been taken down because it's now available on the Dungeon Master's Guild.

Oh.

I don't have an account there, so I guess I'll just not borrow from yours.

Cheers, and hope you get good feedback over on the Guild.

DracoKnight
2016-02-22, 05:18 AM
Moved to Dungeon Master's Guild, at least temporarily. I have a saved copy on google docs, so don't worry, this class won't be lost to the ether.

Can you link the DMs Guild page? Or PM it to me?

Steampunkette
2016-02-22, 07:16 AM
http://www.dmsguild.com/product/175184/Dragonfire-Adept-Base-Class-For-5E?term=Dragonfi

JNAProductions
2016-03-02, 06:23 PM
Updated the DFA to be a pay what you want. The PDF is totally free, but if you feel like supporting me, then feel free to pay a little for it.

Either way, enjoy!

Nifft
2016-03-03, 08:53 PM
Updated the DFA to be a pay what you want. The PDF is totally free, but if you feel like supporting me, then feel free to pay a little for it.

Either way, enjoy!

I finally got around to writing up a version of this class (here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?480408-5e-Nifft-s-Dragonfire-Adept-PEACH&p=20496977)).

It went in a very different direction -- I ended up re-hashing a lot of the Dragon-flavored PrCs, and I broke things up into an "early" subclass + a "late" subclass, to cover all the material I wanted.

Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for the inspiration, even if we ended up at somewhat different destinations. :)

JNAProductions
2016-03-03, 08:55 PM
How dare you! This is MY CLASS! MINE! *Hiss!*

Soon as this is posted, I'll be checking it out. Give you some feedback.

JNAProductions
2016-08-01, 07:46 PM
Any more criticisms or critiques?

JNAProductions
2016-08-01, 08:08 PM
Okay-halved all ranges on the breath weapon. After some advice, I've realized it's a bit excessive.

So it starts at a 15' Cone/30' Line, and improves by 5'/10' at each tier.