AC Dump Build

[PeteNutButter]

I started a game recently and am planning a build and want to hear some input. The plan is Warlock 1/Wizard (abjurer) the rest.

As you might guess from that, the plan is to use armor of agathys(and maybe fire shield later) and arcane ward to soak up damage and punish enemies. Stats are Human variant, 16, 8, 12, 16, 8, 13. I took the Sentinel feat.

General Strategy is to keep up highest level armor of agathys and arcane ward. Go into combat and cast blade ward, use reaction to punish enemies via sentinel feat(and eventually warcaster for spell reactions) if they want to move or attack a teammate.

I've seen ideas like this theorized. Has anyone actually tried it? Could my ward+armor of agathys+resistance last through a round? I'm sure the blade ward strategy will quickly become subpar, so how would it fair without resistance? There are a lot of abjuration reaction spells, such as shield to recharge the ward between hits, which could help. But then I'm not using sentinel feat...

[bid]

Warlock 1 / abjurer 9 with 54 hp, 25 thp and 23 ward: total 102 hp.
If you bladeward, you get ignored since you do no damage.
If you don't, archers can target you until the 7th arrows drops your AoA.

Since the "spectral frost" is visible, enemies will have enough information to avoid you.

[Talamare]

AoA isn't Concentration, so you can Stoneskin to reduce physical damage you take

Altho the amount of Spells you get for AoA are kinda of low, 1 5th level, and 3 3rd level
Can't use the 4th level ones since you need it for casting Stoneskin

Which reminds me, how are you dealing damage?
If your damage is technically completely pathetic, it's not much incentive for things to go after you

[RickAllison]

AoA isn't Concentration, so you can Stoneskin to reduce physical damage you take

Altho the amount of Spells you get for AoA are kinda of low, 1 5th level, and 3 3rd level
Can't use the 4th level ones since you need it for casting Stoneskin

Which reminds me, how are you dealing damage?
If your damage is technically completely pathetic, it's not much incentive for things to go after you

Maybe that's the point? After all, the best way to never be killed is to never be attacked! Just make sure to have your escape spell handy.

[PeteNutButter]

Maybe that's the point? After all, the best way to never be killed is to never be attacked! Just make sure to have your escape spell handy.

Well I am only second level so far, but I cast blade ward on turn and then when they didn't focus me, I just walked past a bunch of them to provoke AoOs and was able to deal the 5 damage to 3 different targets, and then attack. (I had cast blade ward the previous turn, and it lasts until the end of your following turn) I took a 16 str so that I could just slap things with my staff for a 1d8+3 +1d6 for hex which at the moment is the best use of concentration.

This is before I even have lvl 2 of wizard for abjurer. My biggest question is, can I keep that up? If say I'm lvl 10 and have a 5th lvl AoA with stoneskin and an arcane ward at 22. If I get hit 4 times thats 100 damage. If they want to ignore me then I can use the sentinel feat to punish them. All else failing, I'd still be a 9th lvl wizard.

Besides if a fight is truly deadly then eventually they will have to focus me. :P TPK? Come get some.

[Malifice]

I started a game recently and am planning a build and want to hear some input. The plan is Warlock 1/Wizard (abjurer) the rest.

As you might guess from that, the plan is to use armor of agathys(and maybe fire shield later) and arcane ward to soak up damage and punish enemies. Stats are Human variant, 16, 8, 12, 16, 8, 13. I took the Sentinel feat.

General Strategy is to keep up highest level armor of agathys and arcane ward. Go into combat and cast blade ward, use reaction to punish enemies via sentinel feat(and eventually warcaster for spell reactions) if they want to move or attack a teammate.

I've seen ideas like this theorized. Has anyone actually tried it? Could my ward+armor of agathys+resistance last through a round? I'm sure the blade ward strategy will quickly become subpar, so how would it fair without resistance? There are a lot of abjuration reaction spells, such as shield to recharge the ward between hits, which could help. But then I'm not using sentinel feat...

Grab yourself a level of Barbarian as well. Resistance is golden with this build.

[MeeposFire]

Maybe that's the point? After all, the best way to never be killed is to never be attacked! Just make sure to have your escape spell handy.

That can be true but remember that in a group if the enemy is not attacking you then the rest of your party is getting pummeled when they can't handle the pressure and you if you are not dealing damage will be unable to contribute enough to the party.

This is sort of like the old assassin problem in 4e. You could make one that could hide all the time which made you very hard to target but if you did so often your party suffered so it would not be as optimal a trick as it otherwise would be.

Perhaps adding tunnel fighter (or whatever lets you make opportunity attacks without using your reaction I think that exists) so you can leverage warcaster more?

[RickAllison]

That can be true but remember that in a group if the enemy is not attacking you then the rest of your party is getting pummeled when they can't handle the pressure and you if you are not dealing damage will be unable to contribute enough to the party.

This is sort of like the old assassin problem in 4e. You could make one that could hide all the time which made you very hard to target but if you did so often your party suffered so it would not be as optimal a trick as it otherwise would be.

Perhaps adding tunnel fighter (or whatever lets you make opportunity attacks without using your reaction I think that exists) so you can leverage warcaster more?

I was intending that as more of a joke. Like the point is he never contributes and just makes himself safer. Doesn't seem like too bad of a gig :smallbiggrin:

[djreynolds]

Sounds very cool, and shocking grasp I think loses them there reaction for the turn

[GanonBoar]

Dip another level of Warlock for Armour of Shadows. Infinite Arcane Ward.

[PeteNutButter]

As for taking a lvl of barbarian. That was my initial intention, but upon closer examination I think its not worth it. The build's biggest damage is armor of agathys, and putting myself another lvl behind on slots is costly. Furthermore I could not cast spells such as shield and absorb elements while raging, essentially my main protections to keep the ward going(and subsequently the AoA). And the higher I go up the worse it gets. I could have 18 lvls of wizard, but not able to cast a spell, because I'm mad.


Dip another level of Warlock for Armour of Shadows. Infinite Arcane Ward.

I had considered this as well, but I think casting mage armor in combat, is worse than most things. Out of combat? Ritual Alarm.

Here's a juicing question that is RAW cheese. Say I'm warlock 2/wizard 5, and I want to cast mage armor as a 3rd lvl spell, but armor of shadows lets it go off without costing a slot...? So essentially I could cast mage armor at my highest lvl spell, but then not cost the slot. Why? Well that's mad recharge on the arcane ward.

[Degwerks]

Does Arcane Ward have a maximum of HPs? I mean after its initially created, let's say 9th lvl wizard with 20 int, it has 23hps. Can you cast abjuration spells to increase it more? Past that 23hps, or can you only refresh/renew it when its been used up?

[MaxWilson]

Armor of Agathys can be fun, but it's a one-tricky pony that only works against melee enemies. If you truly dump AC then you'll be helpless against ranged enemies, and mediocre vs. AoEs. If you're genuinely okay with only being actively involved in 1/3 to maybe 2/3 of the fights then go for it. Back in AD&D it was common for certain characters to focus primarily on the exploration aspects of the game and leave the fighting to the fighters, so you can certainly have a fun game without taking part in every combat.

[Degwerks]

Consider dumping Hex for Hellish Rebuke and getting the Boomming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrips. More punishment and allows you to do more damage later.

[PeteNutButter]

Does Arcane Ward have a maximum of HPs? I mean after its initially created, let's say 9th lvl wizard with 20 int, it has 23hps. Can you cast abjuration spells to increase it more? Past that 23hps, or can you only refresh/renew it when its been used up?

pg 115 phb ~the ward has a hit point maximum equal to twice your wizard lvl +int mod

[PeteNutButter]

Armor of Agathys can be fun, but it's a one-tricky pony that only works against melee enemies. If you truly dump AC then you'll be helpless against ranged enemies, and mediocre vs. AoEs. If you're genuinely okay with only being actively involved in 1/3 to maybe 2/3 of the fights then go for it. Back in AD&D it was common for certain characters to focus primarily on the exploration aspects of the game and leave the fighting to the fighters, so you can certainly have a fun game without taking part in every combat.

Well you make good points, but it isn't like I'd be melee character exclusively. I'd still be more wizard than anything else, so if the fight calls for it I can sit back. Also there are many movement options available such as misty step and what not to get me into melee range. Once in melee range, sentinel feat makes me very sticky.

[PeteNutButter]

Consider dumping Hex for Hellish Rebuke and getting the Boomming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrips. More punishment and allows you to do more damage later.

I have BB/GFB as wizard cantrips.

As for hellish rebuke, I get that its thematically appropriate, but it doesn't really seem that great at 2d10 for a spell slot. The big deal breaker is it uses up my precious reaction on a spell that isn't abjuration.

Hex on the other hand synergizes well with melee attacks and spells like scorching ray. After a few hits it passes up hellish rebuke on damage outright.

[charlesk]

I played an abjurer wizard briefly. My personal opinion is that the arcane ward is grossly overrated. It's not very many HP, and there aren't very many spells that recharge it in combat. It certainly will not make you nearly as tanky as you think, at least not without a LOT of help from other things.

A straight fiend pack warlock is probably a better choice for this sort of thing. At least they get temporary HP when they kill things. Basically for free.

[Degwerks]

I had only meant that with Hex, as much as you're planning on getting hit to do damage, even though you can mitigate some of it, you'll still have to succeed a minimum of a DC10 con save to keep Hex going.

I myself with my Tiefling warlock with a +3 to my save, managed to botch my rolls a lot.

The Elemental Evil players companion has a cool 6th level spell I plan on grabbing. Investiture of Flame, so with AoA up, they hit me they'll take damage, move up to me or end their turn by me they'll take damage, and if they move away after Booming Blade they'll take damage. Plus Hellish Rebuke if I am so inclined.

By the way I like your build idea.

[MaxWilson]

I played an abjurer wizard briefly. My personal opinion is that the arcane ward is grossly overrated. It's not very many HP, and there aren't very many spells that recharge it in combat. It certainly will not make you nearly as tanky as you think, at least not without a LOT of help from other things.

The point of the build in the OP is apparently to combine Armor of Agathys with Arcane Ward to make Armor of Agathys last for much longer and do more damage. So you should assume that Arcane Ward will be two or three times as effective for him as it was for you.

[PeteNutButter]

I had only meant that with Hex, as much as you're planning on getting hit to do damage, even though you can mitigate some of it, you'll still have to succeed a minimum of a DC10 con save to keep Hex going.
I myself with my Tiefling warlock with a +3 to my save, managed to botch my rolls a lot.
The Elemental Evil players companion has a cool 6th level spell I plan on grabbing. Investiture of Flame, so with AoA up, they hit me they'll take damage, move up to me or end their turn by me they'll take damage, and if they move away after Booming Blade they'll take damage. Plus Hellish Rebuke if I am so inclined.
By the way I like your build idea.

The neat thing about arcane ward is hits that are negated by it don't require concentration, since you don't actually take damage. That being said, I'm sure I'll make and fail my share of concentrations. It's another reason warcaster is probably first ASI.

[GanonBoar]

I had considered this as well, but I think casting mage armor in combat, is worse than most things. Out of combat? Ritual Alarm.
Dude, it's one level for making your Ward INFINITE. Who cares if repeatedly casting Mage Armor is a bit weird? You arcane ward will NEVER die.

[PeteNutButter]

The point of the build in the OP is apparently to combine Armor of Agathys with Arcane Ward to make Armor of Agathys last for much longer and do more damage. So you should assume that Arcane Ward will be two or three times as effective for him as it was for you.

That is my aim, but without resistance I think it'll quickly fall apart. He makes a good point about it not being strong, and speaks to my initial question on whether or not this could be maintained.

In ideal situations I would be getting melee attacked by things like elementals so that I could use absorb elements to give resistance and deal the damage back to them.

Ultimately the build has two major problems: What do I do when the enemies ignore me/how can I make them attack me? And when they do decide to beat on me, can I even last?

Sentinel feat does a decent amount control/forcing. I'm looking forward to the situation that calls for me to run up into the enemy team and cast web on myself. :smallbiggrin: Failing that I could always fall back on wizard spells with hex.

As for taking the beating... I think I could keep resistance up about half the time through blade ward, and absorb elements, and eventually stoneskin. So we'll see...

I should note that the character's RP motivations make him strive to a hero/martyr, hence the build. Maybe he'll get his wish.

[PeteNutButter]

Dude, it's one level for making your Ward INFINITE. Who cares if repeatedly casting Mage Armor is a bit weird? You arcane ward will NEVER die.

It caps at 2*wizard lvl + int. And unless my cheese where I cast it at a higher lvl slot (But it doesnt cost me a slot) works then it only adds 2 hp to the ward in combat. I'm better off casting blade ward assuming the enemies can deal more than 3 damage a round.

[charlesk]

The point of the build in the OP is apparently to combine Armor of Agathys with Arcane Ward to make Armor of Agathys last for much longer and do more damage. So you should assume that Arcane Ward will be two or three times as effective for him as it was for you.

Yeah I know. It's still not going to work all that well mechanically IMO. As others have said, this build is extremely weak to ranged damage. Only very stupid creatures are going to attack him in melee and just eat all that damage.

A straight fiend warlock does the temporary HP thing way better than an abjurer. I'd never build an abjurer again unless I could start at very high level, and the DM allowed the introduction of more higher-level abjuration spells (because there's little of consequence above level 3 right now).

[MaxWilson]

Yeah I know. It's still not going to work all that well mechanically IMO. As others have said, this build is extremely weak to ranged damage. Only very stupid creatures are going to attack him in melee and just eat all that damage.

A straight fiend warlock does the temporary HP thing way better than an abjurer. I'd never build an abjurer again unless I could start at very high level, and the DM allowed the introduction of more higher-level abjuration spells (because there's little of consequence above level 3 right now).

Overall, I agree with you. There are plenty of very stupid, easily-killed melee monsters in D&D--but there are also so many ways to kill these very-stupid monsters that I wouldn't specialize a build towards killing them.


It caps at 2*wizard lvl + int. And unless my cheese where I cast it at a higher lvl slot (But it doesnt cost me a slot) works then it only adds 2 hp to the ward in combat. I'm better off casting blade ward assuming the enemies can deal more than 3 damage a round.

You're aware that Blade Ward only benefits you, not your Arcane Ward?

[PeteNutButter]

Yeah I know. It's still not going to work all that well mechanically IMO. As others have said, this build is extremely weak to ranged damage. Only very stupid creatures are going to attack him in melee and just eat all that damage.
A straight fiend warlock does the temporary HP thing way better than an abjurer. I'd never build an abjurer again unless I could start at very high level, and the DM allowed the introduction of more higher-level abjuration spells (because there's little of consequence above level 3 right now).

Fiend Lock hp won't stack with/turns off Armor of Agathys, so it kind of sucks for synergy. Every build has its weaknesses, but ANY wizard is going to go down to a dozen archers. (except a blade singer I guess) I am better against archers than most wizards with my temp hp and ward.

How often are there combats where the enemy is so far away the melee characters don't get there? If the DM wants to set combats up like that just to deny my build (and 3/4 of the party) well good for him. And what'll I do then? The same thing any other wizard would do, take cover or shoot back with magic.

I don't care if there are no good high level abjuration spells. That's why I just take the good spells of whatever school. It's not like I'm going to avoid taking fireball. If I really need to charge my ward in combat, you CAN cast spells at a higher level, even if they don't scale. A 5th lvl shield spell for +5 AC and 10 ward hp is a poor option, but it is an option.

[PeteNutButter]

You're aware that Blade Ward only benefits you, not your Arcane Ward?

Ah I think I knew that, and forgot. Thanks for reminding me.

[coredump]

I am playing this PC currently, and have made it to lvl 7 War2/Wiz5. A few things...

The biggest threat to the schtick is if the enemy just decides to ignore you.... so you need to also be some sort of threat. This will partly depend on your DM and how 'knowledgeable' he lets the bad guys be. But regardless, some creatures will be better at this than others.

Ritual alarm is nice, but there is a *huge* difference between getting back 2 hp every 6 seconds, or every 11 minutes. By level 6 I had a 12 hp ward..... which means over an hour every time I need to recharge it. Mage Armor lets me do it in 36 seconds.

Using the invocation does not use a spell slot..... you only get back 2 hp each time.

Svirfneblin can cast nondetection at will (with a feat), which is almost enough to be worthwhile in combat. (but not quite IMO)

Resistance will help with your THP, but not with the arcane ward.

I don't think Barbarian is worth it.... too MAD, only 2 rages a day, doesn't help with Ward, fewer spell slots, etc...

Blade Ward lasts until the *end* of your next turn. It lets you trigger OA for two turns from just one casting.

So far, ranged attacks have not been that big of a deal. Sure they happen, but they would happen to any caster. And even at level 6 i had 31 hp, plus 10 THP plus 12 Ward..... so AoA may not trigger, but its nice to have such a bump in HP. (Heck, my vengeance paladin is 'weak at range', but still manages to contribute really well.)

That said, I would not 'dump' AC. I just wouldn't worry about bumping it up. You want to get hit, but you don't want to be a pin cushion.

I am liking Hellish Rebuke. It lets you 'nova', they hit you, take AoA damage, then you HR them. Plus, it can be used against ranged or AoE damage. (and it really does fit the concept well...)
It also breaks the action economy, it lets you cast a damaging spell with your Reaction.... more damage faster...

I built my guy before SCAG, so not GFB/BB etc. I am trying to be a threat via wizard spells.... but I think there may be a synergy with BB. Cast it, hit, and walk away. They can take the OA but then take AoA damage. And they take more damage if they move on their turn.
OTOH, it also gets into the MAD situation.......
I took Hex, but never used it... mostly because I wasn't using Attacks very often. I am leary about the continual Con checks.... your whole plan is to get hit a lot

As above... the Fiend THP would replace the AoA THP, and thus end the spell. The Ward 'stacks'....

[PeteNutButter]

I am playing this PC currently, and have made it to lvl 7 War2/Wiz5. A few things...

The biggest threat to the schtick is if the enemy just decides to ignore you.... so you need to also be some sort of threat. This will partly depend on your DM and how 'knowledgeable' he lets the bad guys be. But regardless, some creatures will be better at this than others.

Ritual alarm is nice, but there is a *huge* difference between getting back 2 hp every 6 seconds, or every 11 minutes. By level 6 I had a 12 hp ward..... which means over an hour every time I need to recharge it. Mage Armor lets me do it in 36 seconds.

Using the invocation does not use a spell slot..... you only get back 2 hp each time.

Svirfneblin can cast nondetection at will (with a feat), which is almost enough to be worthwhile in combat. (but not quite IMO)

Resistance will help with your THP, but not with the arcane ward.

I don't think Barbarian is worth it.... too MAD, only 2 rages a day, doesn't help with Ward, fewer spell slots, etc...

Blade Ward lasts until the *end* of your next turn. It lets you trigger OA for two turns from just one casting.

So far, ranged attacks have not been that big of a deal. Sure they happen, but they would happen to any caster. And even at level 6 i had 31 hp, plus 10 THP plus 12 Ward..... so AoA may not trigger, but its nice to have such a bump in HP. (Heck, my vengeance paladin is 'weak at range', but still manages to contribute really well.)

That said, I would not 'dump' AC. I just wouldn't worry about bumping it up. You want to get hit, but you don't want to be a pin cushion.

I am liking Hellish Rebuke. It lets you 'nova', they hit you, take AoA damage, then you HR them. Plus, it can be used against ranged or AoE damage. (and it really does fit the concept well...)
It also breaks the action economy, it lets you cast a damaging spell with your Reaction.... more damage faster...

I built my guy before SCAG, so not GFB/BB etc. I am trying to be a threat via wizard spells.... but I think there may be a synergy with BB. Cast it, hit, and walk away. They can take the OA but then take AoA damage. And they take more damage if they move on their turn.
OTOH, it also gets into the MAD situation.......
I took Hex, but never used it... mostly because I wasn't using Attacks very often. I am leary about the continual Con checks.... your whole plan is to get hit a lot

As above... the Fiend THP would replace the AoA THP, and thus end the spell. The Ward 'stacks'....

Great feedback, coredump.

I think going for a bit of a melee focus with sentinel will help make me stickier. Ritual alarm is far from a perfect solution, but at this point I don't know when to take that second level of warlock. Maybe I'll hold off until lvl 7 so I can have 3rd lvl spells first. Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and take it at 4th lvl, after 2nd lvl wizard for the ward.

I have already utilized the blade ward lasting *sort of* two turns, via the attacks of opportunity.

Whenever I take that second level of warlock I'll pick up Hellish rebuke, but am still not sure how often I'll use it when I can make reactions with Sentinel feat, absorb elements, and shield.

I am trying to be a threat in the low to mid levels via melee and melee cantrips, so I can save my spells for more armor of agathys and abjuration spells. As I transition to higher levels this damage will get outpaced and I'll have to start casting more offensive spells. So as far as MAD, I doubt I'll ever take my str up. 16 is good for low to mid lvls and from there the int will do all the work.

[EvadableMoxie]

I just walked past a bunch of them to provoke AoOs


Enemies aren't required to take AOs, so I think your trick is unlikely to work more than once.

You are building to take yourself out of combat. It's like CCing yourself. Why are you doing that?

I would say a better way to look at it is a wizard who keeps AoA up and has arcane ward, which lets you do stuff more productive than casting blade ward while still not being squishy and helpless if you find yourself in melee. Just be a wizard who acts like a wizard but doesn't curl up into the fetal position when an enemy closes into melee.

It's probably not worth having to start with 13 charisma and slowing your wizard progression by a level, but it'll work. You'd probably be better off just being a bladesinger, though.

[gfishfunk]

I played an abjurer wizard briefly. My personal opinion is that the arcane ward is grossly overrated. It's not very many HP, and there aren't very many spells that recharge it in combat. It certainly will not make you nearly as tanky as you think, at least not without a LOT of help from other things.

A straight fiend pack warlock is probably a better choice for this sort of thing. At least they get temporary HP when they kill things. Basically for free.

^This. I played one as well. While the AoA + Arcane Ward is interesting and powerful, its boring. In orde to make it effective, you really need to dedicate your highest level spellslots to recasting AoA over and again. That does not leave you with much else to do on your turns. Its MAD enough that your spell modifier does not make you a great dpr caster, and you are obviously in melee ranged anyway. You end up sacrificing ASI to Warcaster / Con save proficiency to keep it fairly low.

You end up without much to do in combat, and a good many enemies will be using ranged attacks / save spells or effects anyway. If you can lure things into hurting you, its not too shabby but it is a bit boring. Its great on paper and can be powerful against groups of enemies, but ends up boring in the long run.

[RulesJD]

Just so you know, AoA does not do damage when your Ward takes the damage (same as Bladeward not applying to the Ward). So enemies take 0 damage until they burn through your ward.

[MaxWilson]

The biggest threat to the schtick is if the enemy just decides to ignore you.... so you need to also be some sort of threat.
I took Hex, but never used it... mostly because I wasn't using Attacks very often.

These two observations solve each other. Use Hex in your bonus action to impose disadvantage on the enemy's attempt to resist the grapple from your regular action. Once grappled, a melee enemy CANNOT ignore you.

The damage bonus from Hex is just a fringe benefit. Advantage on ability check contests with a bonus action is where it's at. For Swashbucklers that's a level 13 feature.

Bonus: have your familiar Help you grapple. If your DM buys it. I probably wouldn't without a creative explanation, since you can only Help with tasks you can do yourself.

[gfishfunk]

Just so you know, AoA does not do damage when your Ward takes the damage (same as Bladeward not applying to the Ward). So enemies take 0 damage until they burn through your ward.

Not true - I think*. The key is in the verbage. The Ward states 'when you are hit' as does the damage portion of AoA.

*unfortunately, I only have the OGL with me, so I cannot verify this at the moment, but I previously double-checked that prior to making my version of the character.

[MaxWilson]

Not true - I think*. The key is in the verbage. The Ward states 'when you are hit' as does the damage portion of AoA.

*unfortunately, I only have the OGL with me, so I cannot verify this at the moment, but I previously double-checked that prior to making my version of the character.

Correct. What makes Arcane Ward special is that when you are hit, the Ward takes the damage.

The more interesting question: Shield also triggers "when you are hit," and it makes you retroactively not-hit. Can you make it so you are hit, AoA triggers and does damage, and then you cast Shield and avoid taking damage yourself? My answer as a DM to that question would be, "Get out of my house, you munchkin."

[PeteNutButter]

Enemies aren't required to take AOs, so I think your trick is unlikely to work more than once.

It was zombies...



You are building to take yourself out of combat. It's like CCing yourself. Why are you doing that?
I would say a better way to look at it is a wizard who keeps AoA up and has arcane ward, which lets you do stuff more productive than casting blade ward while still not being squishy and helpless if you find yourself in melee. Just be a wizard who acts like a wizard but doesn't curl up into the fetal position when an enemy closes into melee.
It's probably not worth having to start with 13 charisma and slowing your wizard progression by a level, but it'll work. You'd probably be better off just being a bladesinger, though.

Of course it's all situational. Everyone always points out flaws in a build's go to strategies. But, obviously characters are played differently as needed. Any character with nearly all levels in wizard is going to be a good character, as long as the player plays it right. So as I reach higher level, I suspect I'll partially abandon this gimmick in favor of just blasting.

Bladesinger better? The thread was called AC Dump build. That is hardly even relevant.

[PeteNutButter]

I played one as well. While the AoA + Arcane Ward is interesting and powerful, its boring. In orde to make it effective, you really need to dedicate your highest level spellslots to recasting AoA over and again. That does not leave you with much else to do on your turns. Its MAD enough that your spell modifier does not make you a great dpr caster, and you are obviously in melee ranged anyway. You end up sacrificing ASI to Warcaster / Con save proficiency to keep it fairly low.
You end up without much to do in combat, and a good many enemies will be using ranged attacks / save spells or effects anyway. If you can lure things into hurting you, its not too shabby but it is a bit boring. Its great on paper and can be powerful against groups of enemies, but ends up boring in the long run.

Your argument is confusing. IF I take warcaster I'll be one ASI behind a blaster wizard unless they take elemental adept, and then I'm on par with a normal wizard.

With arcane ward at full and your highest level of spell spent on casting AoA it lasts on average 3 to 5 hits, bumping and spiking at different levels. So if all I do in combat is recast it after taking those hits, then I am doing a lot of damage, and my teammates aren't taking much.

The character is effectively a gish. Each round I have to decide if I should melee attack, cast an offensive spell, cast a defensive one, or cast something to force enemies to attack me. That it incredibly more versatile and interesting than just spamming fireballs. Boring? Well I suppose its all subjective, but options (and incentives to do them) tend to make things more interesting imo.

[RickAllison]

Your argument is confusing. IF I take warcaster I'll be one ASI behind a blaster wizard unless they take elemental adept, and then I'm on par with a normal wizard.

With arcane ward at full and your highest level of spell spent on casting AoA it lasts on average 3 to 5 hits, bumping and spiking at different levels. So if all I do in combat is recast it after taking those hits, then I am doing a lot of damage, and my teammates aren't taking much.

The character is effectively a gish. Each round I have to decide if I should melee attack, cast an offensive spell, cast a defensive one, or cast something to force enemies to attack me. That it incredibly more versatile and interesting than just spamming fireballs. Boring? Well I suppose its all subjective, but options (and incentives to do them) tend to make things more interesting imo.

Part of the issue some might have with understanding your point of view is that many wizards don't go around casting Fireball (unless he decided to TP into Pit Fiend; then he spams Fireball non-stop! Especially centered on his fire-immune self). Massive Blasting tends to be the domain of sorcerers, where wizards play the Batman with a wide variety of spells that he can try to put to unique uses.

[PeteNutButter]

Part of the issue some might have with understanding your point of view is that many wizards don't go around casting Fireball (unless he decided to TP into Pit Fiend; then he spams Fireball non-stop! Especially centered on his fire-immune self). Massive Blasting tends to be the domain of sorcerers, where wizards play the Batman with a wide variety of spells that he can try to put to unique uses.

I believe that is the intention, and was the case in previous editions. But my experience with 5e shows that save or suck spells aren't what they used to be. And since you can only concentrate on one buff or battlefield control spell. Starting round two of combat... its blasting only.

[Degwerks]

I believe that is the intention, and was the case in previous editions. But my experience with 5e shows that save or suck spells aren't what they used to be. And since you can only concentrate on one buff or battlefield control spell. Starting round two of combat... its blasting only.

You are quite correct.

I think a lot of people are finding too many "faults/limitations" in your build, while the truth is that there isn't any. All you've done is given yourself more options than a regular wizard.

You've got great offensive-Defense going, you have off turn options like hellish rebuke, shield, counterspell plus sentinel/warcaster stuff. All that plus you can act like a normal wizard.

[MaxWilson]

I believe that is the intention, and was the case in previous editions. But my experience with 5e shows that save or suck spells aren't what they used to be. And since you can only concentrate on one buff or battlefield control spell. Starting round two of combat... its blasting only.

Let's say you are going to cast Wall of Force and keep your concentration on that. Here are three things to do which are all usually better than blasting away with actual spell slots:

1.) Tank for the party. Requires good AC via plate armor/Bladesinger. Warcaster helps a lot, both so you don't lose Wall of Force and so you can grapple or Dodge and still threaten strong opportunity attacks with Booming Blade, to prevent enemy from ignoring you.
2.) Plink with cantrips, or fwam! with Agonizing Eldritch Blast, which requires multiclassing.
2b.) Plink away vicariously with animated skeleton archers, which works for anyone but is about twice as efficient for necromancers. Doesn't actually require your action but may make you feel better about plinking for 2d10 with your action, since you're getting 2d10+6d6+12 when you count your half-dozen skeletons.
3.) Spam disabling cantrips like Blindness (no concentration). Goes well with 2b.

Blasting away with Scorching Ray/Chain Lightning/etc. is just about the worst possible use of your spell slots.

[RulesJD]

Correct. What makes Arcane Ward special is that when you are hit, the Ward takes the damage.

The more interesting question: Shield also triggers "when you are hit," and it makes you retroactively not-hit. Can you make it so you are hit, AoA triggers and does damage, and then you cast Shield and avoid taking damage yourself? My answer as a DM to that question would be, "Get out of my house, you munchkin."

It's actually incorrect.

Think of the Ward as force field around you. Temp HP (and by virtue AoA) is your armor. While the force field is being hit, your armor isn't being touched at all.

That's the reason why if you are hit with your Ward up, and it's not for enough damage to take down the Ward, you don't need to make a concentration save because you aren't actually taking any damage. It's also why Bladeward doesn't work with reducing the damage to the Ward, resistances don't come into play, etc. So you don't get AoA damage until your Ward goes down because you aren't actually being hit, your Ward is.

[bid]

It's actually incorrect.

Think of the Ward as force field around you. Temp HP (and by virtue AoA) is your armor. While the force field is being hit, your armor isn't being touched at all.
Interesting interpretation. I'm not sure it's the only valid one, though.

"Whenever you take damage" and "If a creature hits you" still work fine if you interpret the other way.

Yours avoid the concentration check and will be what the majority prefers, since they won't use AoA.

[coredump]

It's actually incorrect.

Think of the Ward as force field around you. Temp HP (and by virtue AoA) is your armor. While the force field is being hit, your armor isn't being touched at all.

That's the reason why if you are hit with your Ward up, and it's not for enough damage to take down the Ward, you don't need to make a concentration save because you aren't actually taking any damage. It's also why Bladeward doesn't work with reducing the damage to the Ward, resistances don't come into play, etc. So you don't get AoA damage until your Ward goes down because you aren't actually being hit, your Ward is.
You are conflating 'getting hit' with 'taking damage'. They are two very distinctly different things.

Blade ward, and other resistance sources, key off of 'taking damage'.
AoA keys off of 'getting hit'.

You get hit, AoA triggers, the ward absorbs the damage, so you do not take any damage.

[coredump]

You are quite correct.

I think a lot of people are finding too many "faults/limitations" in your build, while the truth is that there isn't any. All you've done is given yourself more options than a regular wizard.

Oh, there are definitely limitations going on..... You are spending one of your top slots for a spell that can be mostly avoided by just attacking other party members.

OTOH, the same could be said about Stoneskin, or platemail and magic shield, or many other defensive boosts....they can all be avoided by just not getting attacked.

So you need to be sure you have some reason to make them 'pay' for not attacking you. Sentinel is an option, doing a lot of damage, controlling the battlefield, etc. You have to be a big enough threat/nuisance that they really want to attack you.

I think the problem is people are critiquing this like its supposed to be an 'I Win' button.... and its not meant to be. (and I don't think anyone is claiming it is.)
Sure you can attack me from range.... but you can do that to any caster. At least AoA/AW gives me 66% more "hit points" to survive those ranged attacks. I often go several encounters without losing any 'real' hit points. And I can pump up my Ward and use the same AoA for a second combat....sometimes....

But I am still a full caster, slowed a little by MC, but I should still be able to be effective with my spells.

[PeteNutButter]

Oh, there are definitely limitations going on..... You are spending one of your top slots for a spell that can be mostly avoided by just attacking other party members.
OTOH, the same could be said about Stoneskin, or platemail and magic shield, or many other defensive boosts....they can all be avoided by just not getting attacked.
So you need to be sure you have some reason to make them 'pay' for not attacking you. Sentinel is an option, doing a lot of damage, controlling the battlefield, etc. You have to be a big enough threat/nuisance that they really want to attack you.
I think the problem is people are critiquing this like its supposed to be an 'I Win' button.... and its not meant to be. (and I don't think anyone is claiming it is.)
Sure you can attack me from range.... but you can do that to any caster. At least AoA/AW gives me 66% more "hit points" to survive those ranged attacks. I often go several encounters without losing any 'real' hit points. And I can pump up my Ward and use the same AoA for a second combat....sometimes....
But I am still a full caster, slowed a little by MC, but I should still be able to be effective with my spells.

Exacty, I am trying to do something different, but still good. The build will certainly have its shinning moments and those when it just cantrips, but that's no different than most wizards.

I have always enjoyed "thorns" builds since D2, but they are rarely even remotely viable. This is a build that does just that and will likely contribute more to the team than the players that don't min/max at all.

It is not "I AM A GOD." It is a way of min/maxing that doesn't so dwarf the non-min/maxers that it ruins their game, while still being able to do a lot of fun useful things. It is a thought exercise on what you can gain by ignoring AC, and how you could arrange for enemies to attack you. IMO a fun character to play = Viable < *Just Right* < So OP it ruins it for the other players.

[PeteNutButter]

Let's say you are going to cast Wall of Force and keep your concentration on that. Here are three things to do which are all usually better than blasting away with actual spell slots:
1.) Tank for the party. Requires good AC via plate armor/Bladesinger. Warcaster helps a lot, both so you don't lose Wall of Force and so you can grapple or Dodge and still threaten strong opportunity attacks with Booming Blade, to prevent enemy from ignoring you.
2.) Plink with cantrips, or fwam! with Agonizing Eldritch Blast, which requires multiclassing.
2b.) Plink away vicariously with animated skeleton archers, which works for anyone but is about twice as efficient for necromancers. Doesn't actually require your action but may make you feel better about plinking for 2d10 with your action, since you're getting 2d10+6d6+12 when you count your half-dozen skeletons.
3.) Spam disabling cantrips like Blindness (no concentration). Goes well with 2b.
Blasting away with Scorching Ray/Chain Lightning/etc. is just about the worst possible use of your spell slots.

We are on the same page here, just a wording conflict. I mean blasting as in dealing damage, regardless of whether its cantrips or your spells. The reality of it is you will spend 75% or more of your time as a wizard just dealing damage, a big switch from 3.5e. I do disagree though that blasting is the WORST use of your slots. It can be quite viable and there are certainly worse things.

What are these disabling cantrips you speak of? I see no Blindness cantrip anywhere.

[PeteNutButter]

You are conflating 'getting hit' with 'taking damage'. They are two very distinctly different things.
Blade ward, and other resistance sources, key off of 'taking damage'.
AoA keys off of 'getting hit'.
You get hit, AoA triggers, the ward absorbs the damage, so you do not take any damage.

Just to pile on with coredump here again.

If you have both arcane ward and AoA up and you "get hit" (meaning something hits your AC) then two things happen. 1.) If it was a melee attack the AoA deals its damage. 2.) Arcane ward absorbs as much of the damage as it can. These two things are being triggered by the same event (getting hit) and are in no conflict with each other.

That is clear as RAW, but if it bothers you its probably because of the way you are picturing the arcane ward. Although the warding isn't explicit on its appearance. I say it would be less like a giant bubble around your character, and more like a Quen shield from the Witcher series, which is like a forcefield that wraps tightly around Geralt.

Picturing the ward like that while the AoA is spectral frost surrounding you is a more in line with the rules and makes sense.

[MaxWilson]

Oh, there are definitely limitations going on..... You are spending one of your top slots for a spell that can be mostly avoided by just attacking other party members.

OTOH, the same could be said about Stoneskin, or platemail and magic shield, or many other defensive boosts....they can all be avoided by just not getting attacked.

So you need to be sure you have some reason to make them 'pay' for not attacking you. Sentinel is an option, doing a lot of damage, controlling the battlefield, etc. You have to be a big enough threat/nuisance that they really want to attack you.

I think the problem is people are critiquing this like its supposed to be an 'I Win' button.... and its not meant to be. (and I don't think anyone is claiming it is.)
Sure you can attack me from range.... but you can do that to any caster. At least AoA/AW gives me 66% more "hit points" to survive those ranged attacks. I often go several encounters without losing any 'real' hit points. And I can pump up my Ward and use the same AoA for a second combat....sometimes....

But I am still a full caster, slowed a little by MC, but I should still be able to be effective with my spells.

I think people are reacting to the thread title. A normal caster that doesn't "dump" AC is less vulnerable to ranged attacks than someone who purposefully does. A standard Dex 10 Wizard with Mage Armor and Shield can get AC 18. If you have AC 9 because you went Dex 9 and no defensive spells except AoA, you're going to take two and a half times as much damage from hobgoblins as a regular wizard, and about fifteen times as much damage as a wizard who pumped AC via Fighter 1. That's significant.

I think if the suggestion had been phrased as "Porcupine Wizard: Do Not Attack" instead of "Dump AC" you'd get less pushback.

===================================


We are on the same page here, just a wording conflict. I mean blasting as in dealing damage, regardless of whether its cantrips or your spells. The reality of it is you will spend 75% or more of your time as a wizard just dealing damage, a big switch from 3.5e. I do disagree though that blasting is the WORST use of your slots. It can be quite viable and there are certainly worse things.

What are these disabling cantrips you speak of? I see no Blindness cantrip anywhere.

Sorry, typo on my part. Blindness is a 2nd level spell, not a cantrip. No concentration so you can cast it even while maintaining Wall of Force.

You may spend time as a wizard "just" dealing damage, but that's only because you've already done the important thing (Wall of Force/Hypnotic Pattern/whatever) and are just looking for ways to pass the time while everyone else does the real damage. That's why tanking is a strong alternate option: an armored wizard can grapple the same "one large enemy" as a fighter, and even thought the fighter has more HP, HP are fungible in a party where magical healing exists. If an enemy does 30 HP of damage before dying, who cares if those 30 HP came off a 97-HP fighter or a 64-HP wizard? Either way the Lore Bard is going to heal you for 2d6 per round until you're back up to full.

But I think I see your point now: you mean that you can't really win a fight in 5E without somebody doing damage. (Barring shenanigans with Polymorph + drowning.) Ye Olde Disintegrate spell is no longer save-or-die, for example, it's just X amount of damage. 5E intentionally makes HP more of an all-purpose defense. If that is your point, it's absolutely correct. I just don't think it has much impact on how a wizard needs to play, since you were going to have a fighter or two in your party anyway (right?). If you weren't going to have a fighter then yes, now you need to summon up a couple of Planar Bound Earth Elementals to finish off disabled enemies.

[PeteNutButter]

I think people are reacting to the thread title. A normal caster that doesn't "dump" AC is less vulnerable to ranged attacks than someone who purposefully does. A standard Dex 10 Wizard with Mage Armor and Shield can get AC 18. If you have AC 9 because you went Dex 9 and no defensive spells except AoA, you're going to take two and a half times as much damage from hobgoblins as a regular wizard, and about fifteen times as much damage as a wizard who pumped AC via Fighter 1. That's significant.
I think if the suggestion had been phrased as "Porcupine Wizard: Do Not Attack" instead of "Dump AC" you'd get less pushback.

Well I am dumping AC in as much as I have an 8 dex, of course as an abjurer I'll have shield spell. And after I take warlock two will be casting a lot of mage armor.


You may spend time as a wizard "just" dealing damage, but that's only because you've already done the important thing (Wall of Force/Hypnotic Pattern/whatever) and are just looking for ways to pass the time while everyone else does the real damage. That's why tanking is a strong alternate option: an armored wizard can grapple the same "one large enemy" as a fighter, and even thought the fighter has more HP, HP are fungible in a party where magical healing exists. If an enemy does 30 HP of damage before dying, who cares if those 30 HP came off a 97-HP fighter or a 64-HP wizard? Either way the Lore Bard is going to heal you for 2d6 per round until you're back up to full.

Tanking is essentially what I am doing. Just instead of tanking with AC, I'm tanking with temp hp/ward with the added benefit of returning so damage to the melee foes.


But I think I see your point now: you mean that you can't really win a fight in 5E without somebody doing damage. (Barring shenanigans with Polymorph + drowning.) Ye Olde Disintegrate spell is no longer save-or-die, for example, it's just X amount of damage. 5E intentionally makes HP more of an all-purpose defense. If that is your point, it's absolutely correct. I just don't think it has much impact on how a wizard needs to play, since you were going to have a fighter or two in your party anyway (right?). If you weren't going to have a fighter then yes, now you need to summon up a couple of Planar Bound Earth Elementals to finish off disabled enemies.

Three things make blasting better in 5e than it was in 3.5e/pathfinder:
1.) Save every turn greatly reduces cc effectiveness as you spend your action to maybe waste one or more enemy actions as compared to spend a spell and an action to maybe take an enemy out of the fight entirely.
2.) The hit point crunch on monsters in 5e makes even really tough enemies have less than 200hps, meaning you could either cc them or simply take them off the map. A disintegrate spell will do roughly half or more of a monster's hp. A fireball on three or more enemies can do more damage than the fighter.
3.) Concentration essentially forces you to blast(or cantrip blast) once you have one spell going.

None of that is saying that its bad to do other things, just that 5e heavily buffed blasting with their game design.

[MaxWilson]

Three things make blasting better in 5e than it was in 3.5e/pathfinder:
1.) Save every turn greatly reduces cc effectiveness as you spend your action to maybe waste one or more enemy actions as compared to spend a spell and an action to maybe take an enemy out of the fight entirely.
2.) The hit point crunch on monsters in 5e makes even really tough enemies have less than 200hps, meaning you could either cc them or simply take them off the map. A disintegrate spell will do roughly half or more of a monster's hp. A fireball on three or more enemies can do more damage than the fighter.
3.) Concentration essentially forces you to blast(or cantrip blast) once you have one spell going.

None of that is saying that its bad to do other things, just that 5e heavily buffed blasting with their game design.

Points #1 and #2 seem related, and suggest to me that you may not be fully exploiting the power of crowd control spells. Take a spell like Evard's Black Tentacles. Notwithstanding "save every turn" (actually "use your action every turn to make an ability check"), what that spell actually does is reduce enemy damage output by around 75% while doing 37.5% of Fireball damage every turn to your enemies; and then if they manage to get out, your Warlock just blasts them right back in with his Repelling Agonizing Blast. Or your fighter does the same with a Push via Strength (Athletics), although the warlock is more fun IMO.

Layer a Stinking Cloud from the bard on top of your EBT and now the enemy probably can't even attempt to break free from the tentacles, because he's too busy choking on poisonous gas. Now EBT is basically 30d6 (105) of free damage, plus whatever you hit the target with from range while it's busy choking and getting strangled.

Crowd control spells in 5E are fantastic.

Regarding point #2: If you spend a bunch of high-level spells to kill two 200 HP monsters, when you could have instead killed them with one 4th level Evard's Black Tentacles and a bunch of cantrips, you're wasting spells. That may or may not hurt you in an actual game (I'm probably more stingy than necessary with my spells) but it does mean that you won't have anything in reserve if your DM offers a sandbox instead of a metagamed, tailored experience. You kill the mated Gorgimera pair and now you're done, and have to run away from the Behir.

Also Disintegrate, if you're lucky, does about 1/3 of 200 HP, not half. That's pretty bad unless your party has no high-level fighters in it at all. Compare that to a crowd control spell like Otto's Irresistible Dance which, even if it buys your party only a single "free" round of attacks, is likely equivalent to 100 or more points of damage if you've got, say, a Warlock and a Sharpshooter in the party. But it does depend on party composition. If all you've got in your party is 4 Transmuters then I see why you'd feel the need to Disintegrate--but I still hope someone would cast Evard's Black Tentacles first so at least the enemy has disadvantage on his save vs. Disintegrate. Would be a shame to waste a 6th level slot for zero return.

[PeteNutButter]

Points #1 and #2 seem related, and suggest to me that you may not be fully exploiting the power of crowd control spells. Take a spell like Evard's Black Tentacles. Notwithstanding "save every turn" (actually "use your action every turn to make an ability check"), what that spell actually does is reduce enemy damage output by around 75% while doing 37.5% of Fireball damage every turn to your enemies; and then if they manage to get out, your Warlock just blasts them right back in with his Repelling Agonizing Blast. Or your fighter does the same with a Push via Strength (Athletics), although the warlock is more fun IMO.
Layer a Stinking Cloud from the bard on top of your EBT and now the enemy probably can't even attempt to break free from the tentacles, because he's too busy choking on poisonous gas. Now EBT is basically 30d6 (105) of free damage, plus whatever you hit the target with from range while it's busy choking and getting strangled.
Crowd control spells in 5E are fantastic.
Regarding point #2: If you spend a bunch of high-level spells to kill two 200 HP monsters, when you could have instead killed them with one 4th level Evard's Black Tentacles and a bunch of cantrips, you're wasting spells. That may or may not hurt you in an actual game (I'm probably more stingy than necessary with my spells) but it does mean that you won't have anything in reserve if your DM offers a sandbox instead of a metagamed, tailored experience. You kill the mated Gorgimera pair and now you're done, and have to run away from the Behir.
Also Disintegrate, if you're lucky, does about 1/3 of 200 HP, not half. That's pretty bad unless your party has no high-level fighters in it at all. Compare that to a crowd control spell like Otto's Irresistible Dance which, even if it buys your party only a single "free" round of attacks, is likely equivalent to 100 or more points of damage if you've got, say, a Warlock and a Sharpshooter in the party. But it does depend on party composition. If all you've got in your party is 4 Transmuters then I see why you'd feel the need to Disintegrate--but I still hope someone would cast Evard's Black Tentacles first so at least the enemy has disadvantage on his save vs. Disintegrate. Would be a shame to waste a 6th level slot for zero return.

I guess my parties tend to be more melee/noncaster heavy where spells like evards work great for layering multiple aoe spells, it won't do as much good if the enemy is stuck in evards and the fighters cant get to them. Where if the whole party puts out like ~75 damage each such as a disentegrate, a few high lvl smites, fighter action surge GWM, etc... the monster only gets one or two actions. Essentially we go nova on the big baddie, and naturally that uses more resources.

On the flip side the control spells work better for fights where you don't want to go nova, but those fights tend not to be type you want to spend 4th level spells on anyways. Consider Otto's dance, which is a great spell. If it only buys you one turn you are trading your action and a 6th lvl slot to negate one of the enemy's. Now if he is going to deal more damage than your disintegrate would then it might be worth it, but normally if you have a good enough tank he might just burn one of your tank's first lvl spells for a shield and maybe deal a little damage.

Now the scale tips more in favor of the CC spells when the DM throws one or more foes at you that you aren't "supposed" to fight, those monsters several higher CRs than you should fight for your level. When fighting something well outside your class, something that could oneshot a player(even the tank) in a round, then CC becomes a literal life saver.

[coredump]

I think people are reacting to the thread title. A normal caster that doesn't "dump" AC is less vulnerable to ranged attacks than someone who purposefully does. A standard Dex 10 Wizard with Mage Armor and Shield can get AC 18. If you have AC 9 because you went Dex 9 and no defensive spells except AoA, you're going to take two and a half times as much damage from hobgoblins as a regular wizard, and about fifteen times as much damage as a wizard who pumped AC via Fighter 1. That's significant.

I think if the suggestion had been phrased as "Porcupine Wizard: Do Not Attack" instead of "Dump AC" you'd get less pushback.

Fair enough, and as far as that goes, I agree. IME it would be a mistake to dump AC, as in purposely keeping it way low. That just leads to the ward and THP running out too fast, and you dying. My PC has a 15 AC with Mage armor. OTOH, pumping AC is also a mistake, you want them to hit you. Shield is great because it gives some control of when you get hit.

How did. You get to 18 AC above?
===================================



I also agree that control is still a better option for wizards compared to damage dealing. But it doesn't effect this build, this is just 'in addition' to whatever wizard concept you want to use.

[PeteNutButter]

Fair enough, and as far as that goes, I agree. IME it would be a mistake to dump AC, as in purposely keeping it way low. That just leads to the ward and THP running out too fast, and you dying. My PC has a 15 AC with Mage armor. OTOH, pumping AC is also a mistake, you want them to hit you. Shield is great because it gives some control of when you get hit.
How did. You get to 18 AC above?
I also agree that control is still a better option for wizards compared to damage dealing. But it doesn't effect this build, this is just 'in addition' to whatever wizard concept you want to use.

How does the 15 AC work for you? I'd imagine there is a sweet spot where you get hit by melee monsters but can shield for ranged attacks. 15 seems like a good jumping point.

[MaxWilson]

I guess my parties tend to be more melee/noncaster heavy where spells like evards work great for layering multiple aoe spells, it won't do as much good if the enemy is stuck in evards and the fighters cant get to them. Where if the whole party puts out like ~75 damage each such as a disentegrate, a few high lvl smites, fighter action surge GWM, etc... the monster only gets one or two actions. Essentially we go nova on the big baddie, and naturally that uses more resources.

On the flip side the control spells work better for fights where you don't want to go nova, but those fights tend not to be type you want to spend 4th level spells on anyways. Consider Otto's dance, which is a great spell. If it only buys you one turn you are trading your action and a 6th lvl slot to negate one of the enemy's. Now if he is going to deal more damage than your disintegrate would then it might be worth it, but normally if you have a good enough tank he might just burn one of your tank's first lvl spells for a shield and maybe deal a little damage.

Now the scale tips more in favor of the CC spells when the DM throws one or more foes at you that you aren't "supposed" to fight, those monsters several higher CRs than you should fight for your level. When fighting something well outside your class, something that could oneshot a player(even the tank) in a round, then CC becomes a literal life saver.

Aha, I see what's going on. Melee-only fighters aren't very good at exploiting environmental opportunities, including crowd control spells. That doesn't stop the fighters from sitting outside the EBT zone and chucking javelins at the monster (or just laughing at it while it takes 3d6 damage per round) and then shoving it back in the tentacles every time it gets out... but that's more the mentality of a particularly cruel playground bully and not a heroic fighter, so most players probably aren't psychologically equipped to execute that tactic.

RE: Otto's, think of it as buying a free round of full attacks from all the ranged characters in your party, or an almost-free round of full attacks from all the melee fighters. (The enemy will get one opportunity attack at disadvantage against the melee fighters.) That should be a good chunk of damage, easily competitive with the 40-50 expected damage from Disintegrate (after you account for saving throw probability). You're saying that the melee fighters can easily tank one round of attacks at the cost of a 1st level spell slot--if so, my response is "Why are you blowing a 6th level spell slot on something that you can take out with 1st level spell slots?" Maybe the answer is "Because I don't want the 6th level slot to go unused, and this fight is as hard as it gets at my table." But in that case you can pretty much do anything you want and still win, because you vastly outclass the opposition--and style, not effectiveness, becomes the primary criterion because effectiveness is guaranteed.


Now the scale tips more in favor of the CC spells when the DM throws one or more foes at you that you aren't "supposed" to fight, those monsters several higher CRs than you should fight for your level. When fighting something well outside your class, something that could oneshot a player(even the tank) in a round, then CC becomes a literal life saver.

Yup, this is my preferred difficulty range. YMMV.

==========================================


Fair enough, and as far as that goes, I agree. IME it would be a mistake to dump AC, as in purposely keeping it way low. That just leads to the ward and THP running out too fast, and you dying. My PC has a 15 AC with Mage armor. OTOH, pumping AC is also a mistake, you want them to hit you. Shield is great because it gives some control of when you get hit.

How did. You get to 18 AC above?

When I say "AC 18" I mean "in short bursts, using the Shield spell when necessary." Not a sustained all-day AC 18. So, Mage Armor + Dex 10 + Shield = AC 18 whenever AC 13 would not be enough.

[PeteNutButter]

Yup, this is my preferred difficulty range. YMMV.


Ah me too. I long for the days of my old DM who would heartlessly murder players.

I think we agree, but have different playing experiences. Too often at my table it becomes a matter of not whether we will win the fight but how soon, and in those cases blasting is obviously opimal for time more than style. If the fights are truly a deadly challenge, control can make or break them.

I would point out that control spells get consistently better at higher levels, starting really with 4th lvl spells. Blasting peaks at fireball and then disintegrate.

Now that we have sufficently Derailed the thread... How 'bout dat Armor of Agathys?

[MaxWilson]

Now that we have sufficently Derailed the thread... How 'bout dat Armor of Agathys?

I still see nothing wrong with using a 1st level slot to Hex an enemy before you Grapple him, thus forcing* him to beat on your Armor of Agathys if he has no ranged attacks.

Well, I do see one thing wrong with it actually: it wins the combat but doesn't optimize for quick combats. Essentially it has the same problem that crowd control does: your table wants to optimize player time, and inflicting damage does that faster than grappling does. You might prefer to beat on the enemies with Booming Blade instead of grappling.

* Well, he could try to break free with disadvantage on his Strength check, but it's a losing game since he almost certainly doesn't have Athletics or Acrobatics proficiency (most monsters don't) and you can just re-grapple him next turn.

[PeteNutButter]

I still see nothing wrong with using a 1st level slot to Hex an enemy before you Grapple him, thus forcing* him to beat on your Armor of Agathys if he has no ranged attacks.

Well, I do see one thing wrong with it actually: it wins the combat but doesn't optimize for quick combats. Essentially it has the same problem that crowd control does: your table wants to optimize player time, and inflicting damage does that faster than grappling does. You might prefer to beat on the enemies with Booming Blade instead of grappling.

* Well, he could try to break free with disadvantage on his Strength check, but it's a losing game since he almost certainly doesn't have Athletics or Acrobatics proficiency (most monsters don't) and you can just re-grapple him next turn.

This is very viable. I'll have to reread the grapple rules, just hope the DM doesn't hate me for doing it.