Coldfire, Dweomerkeeper, and Epic Spells.

[Graypairofsocks]

I thought of a way to reduce the Spellcraft DCs of Epic Spells to an insane degree.
I am not sure if anyone else has thought of this before, but I wasn't able to find anything about this in a search.
Here is how it works:

In Frostburn there are rules for adding a Coldfire component to an Epic Spell (Coldfire doesn't seem to count as a material Component).

Spells with the coldfire factor require coldfire as a component and their DCs are reduced by 1 for each ounce of coldfire needed to cast the spell.
When you use a Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell ability to cast a spell it won't require any component.

If you use both of these you can create any sort of epic spell and just mitigate the DC to 1 (or 0?) by adding a coldfire component and increasing the amount of coldfire needed to what ever is necessary.
You then cast the Epic Spell with Supernatural Spell so you don't need to pay the massive Coldfire cost of your spell.


This might also be possible with using Supernatural Spell to bypass the Ritual Component (instead of a Coldfire component) of an Epic spell, but I am not sure.

[Beheld]

Since you can already make an Epic Spell that allows you to use any ability you can think of as an Ex ability at will and mitigate that to zero, and you can already wish for an item of +100000 to CL and +1000000 to all stats...

I'm really not sure why anyone would actually care about combining DweomerKeeper cheese with Epic spells.

[Graypairofsocks]

Since you can already make an Epic Spell that allows you to use any ability you can think of as an Ex ability at will and mitigate that to zero, and you can already wish for an item of +100000 to CL and +1000000 to all stats...

I'm really not sure why anyone would actually care about combining DweomerKeeper cheese with Epic spells.
It is easier than gating in tons of Secondary casters?

[Âmesang]

Am I the only one that doesn't mind epic spells that aren't mitigated down to "0"? :smalltongue: I've plans for a superb dispel magic† who's development cost is 'round 21,000 XP, so instead of the character reaching 22nd-level she spends her XP to develop her first epic spell—combined with its 10d6 backlash it's the cost she pays for wielding such phenomenal cosmic power.

Initially I read Gray's post and remembered the Ignore Material Components feat… and then remembered that feats that manipulate regular spells don't affect epic spells. Ah, well…

†It's basically the book's superb dispelling, except the dispel check is +30 instead of +40 but it's also affects everything in a 20-ft.-radius burst; essentially an area-of-effect dispel that affects everything in the area as if they were individually targeted. I also really like that word: superb.

[Graypairofsocks]

Am I the only one that doesn't mind epic spells that aren't mitigated down to "0"? :smalltongue: I've plans for a superb dispel magic† who's development cost is 'round 21,000 XP, so instead of the character reaching 22nd-level she spends her XP to develop her first epic spell—combined with its 10d6 backlash it's the cost she pays for wielding such phenomenal cosmic power.

Initially I read Gray's post and remembered the Ignore Material Components feat… and then remembered that feats that manipulate regular spells don't affect epic spells. Ah, well…

†It's basically the book's superb dispelling, except the dispel check is +30 instead of +40 but it's also affects everything in a 20-ft.-radius burst; essentially an area-of-effect dispel that affects everything in the area as if they were individually targeted. I also really like that word: superb.

The power of this trick is that you can mitigate any spell to DC 1 (or 0?).

A Coldfire component doesn't seem to be the same as a material component.

It is only metamagic feats and other Epic feats that manipulate spells which can't be used with epic spells.
Technically non-epic feats can be used with epic spells.

[Ger. Bessa]

When you use a Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell ability to cast a spell it won't require any component.


Spells with the coldfire factor require coldfire as a component and their DCs are reduced by 1 for each ounce of coldfire needed to cast the spell.

If a spell doesn't require components, then no amount of coldfire is needed. If no amount of coldfire is needed, then the DC doesn't move.

I really think that all those optionnal additionnal components were one of the less broken things in D&D because their wording never allowed to "supposedly add that component" and simultaneously ignore the need for that component. I'm thinking of UA metamagic components, taint metamagic, snowcasting and at least one over. Hellfire warlock is the one everybody squint their eyes at, because spamming lvl d6 damage is so broken (and not really an ignored cost, more of a "instantly refilled one")

[icefractal]

If a spell doesn't require components, then no amount of coldfire is needed. If no amount of coldfire is needed, then the DC doesn't move.The DC is assigned when you research the spell though - it's not an on-the-fly reduction based on how much Coldfire you spend, it's an up-front reduction like the others.

Nice method; usable in combat unlike assistants cheese, and unless there's a cap you haven't mentioned, it can mitigate a NI DC spell, which the assistant version can only do if you have an automatic and arbitrarily fast minion generating method.

[Graypairofsocks]

The DC is assigned when you research the spell though - it's not an on-the-fly reduction based on how much Coldfire you spend, it's an up-front reduction like the others.

Nice method; usable in combat unlike assistants cheese, and unless there's a cap you haven't mentioned, it can mitigate a NI DC spell, which the assistant version can only do if you have an automatic and arbitrarily fast minion generating method.

Interestingly when you have multiple spell casters for an epic spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm#additionalParticipants) it is sort of like on the fly reduction.

There wasn't any cap listed for how much Coldfire you can add to the spell.

[Beheld]

Hellfire warlock is the one everybody squint their eyes at, because spamming lvl d6 damage is so broken (and not really an ignored cost, more of a "instantly refilled one")

That is literally the least broken thing I can imagine. Doing 1d6 damage per level wouldn't even be broken at all, it's an explicit change to the Warlock I would make if I was trying to make it keep up with real classes.


Nice method; usable in combat unlike assistants cheese, and unless there's a cap you haven't mentioned, it can mitigate a NI DC spell, which the assistant version can only do if you have an automatic and arbitrarily fast minion generating method.

Or alternatively, if you created all your minions in the past. Since that's totally something you can do.

[Âmesang]

Interestingly when you have multiple spell casters for an epic spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm#additionalParticipants) it is sort of like on the fly reduction.
I honestly don't see why it can't be, anyway; I wrote up an epic heal/greater restoration/resurrection spell that allows for an additional target and 50% increase to range* for each participant sacrificing a 6th-level spell slot. You don't have to have participants to have the spell work, but the more you happen to have, the better the effect. In this way the spell also retains a static Spellcraft DC (64).

*With the usual two-doublings-equal-a-tripling rule.

[kellbyb]

Am I the only one that doesn't mind epic spells that aren't mitigated down to "0"? :smalltongue: I've plans for a superb dispel magic† who's development cost is 'round 21,000 XP, so instead of the character reaching 22nd-level she spends her XP to develop her first epic spell—combined with its 10d6 backlash it's the cost she pays for wielding such phenomenal cosmic power.

Initially I read Gray's post and remembered the Ignore Material Components feat… and then remembered that feats that manipulate regular spells don't affect epic spells. Ah, well…

†It's basically the book's superb dispelling, except the dispel check is +30 instead of +40 but it's also affects everything in a 20-ft.-radius burst; essentially an area-of-effect dispel that affects everything in the area as if they were individually targeted. I also really like that word: superb.

I fail to see what you plan to do with that spell that couldn't be done with Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

[Âmesang]

Eh, it doesn't completely screw over people like Mordy's disjunction, but you could also suppress (and then destroy) artifacts without risk of forever loosing your spellcasting ('cause if there's ever a time to roll a "1," I guarantee you it'll be then :smalltongue:).

(Also a part of me just think it's a "fairer" spell overall. *shrugs* It's also why I prefer epic spells for summoning deities rather than calling them via gate.)