Vampires and Morale Bonuses.

[TheNivMizzet]

Hey, I'm currently playing a Vampire in a pathfinder game, and was looking at taking a level in Barbarian as I've just leveled up. Looking at the rage feature, I would be immune to the penalties which come after I finish raging, but the internet seems to believe that I wouldn't get the bonuses either, because they're a morale bonus. Pathfinder treats creatures with no intelligence or an intelligence of 0 as unable to be grated Morale bonuses, but my vampire has an intelligence of 13, so I believe I can rage but the entire internet seems to be against the idea.
Just wondering what everyone else thought about a vampire being immune to the fatigue of exhausting and whether they would get the bonus for raging?

[Malimar]

Immunity to mind-effecting (including morale bonuses) is a trait of the Undead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead) type, and doesn't depend on mindlessness.

[TheNivMizzet]

Ah okay, I see "Immune to morale effects" now, thanks for clearing that up :)

[SwordChucks]

You might be able to get your DM to allow the whirling frenzy variant from 3.5's UA. Its bonuses aren't labled as morale. Of course the 3.5 barbarian's rage only gave a morale bonus to will saves, so it likely won't fly.

Edit: Looking up what Ninjaxenomorph brought up, it turns out a special exception was made for undead barbarians. Not only that, the con bonus goes to cha so raging makes them prettier.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

There IS precedent for a vampire barbarian, however, in the Monster Codex.

[ElderLucian]

Check out the Barbarian archetype in Lords of the Night from Dreamscarred Press.

[Psyren]

There IS precedent for a vampire barbarian, however, in the Monster Codex.

Their Vampire Barbarian was apparently given a special ability called "Undead Barbarian" that allows it to get morale bonuses and shifts the Con boosts to Cha. But it includes no RAW way to get that ability except by fiat :smallyuk:

[Extra Anchovies]

The Unchained Barbarian gives untyped bonuses directly to attack, damage, and will saves - the only things you miss out on are the +Con rounds of rage per day and the +2 to Fortitude saves that the CRB Barbarian's rage provides (from the Constitution increase). It wouldn't be too much of an accommodation to get +Cha rounds of rage instead of +Con, either. However, the uBarb also has a lot of the ragecycle options removed, so your fatigue immunity would be nice if you don't want to rage for an entire combat but you won't get as much from it as you would from CRB Barbarian if you could still get the morale bonuses from the latter.

Maybe your DM could let you take a feat that allows you to benefit from any/all beneficial morale effects (or even beneficial mind-influencing effects in general) that you're conscious and aware of?

[Manyasone]

Check out the Barbarian archetype in Lords of the Night from Dreamscarred Press.

This. Also what I was thinking

[Milo v3]

Their Vampire Barbarian was apparently given a special ability called "Undead Barbarian" that allows it to get morale bonuses and shifts the Con boosts to Cha. But it includes no RAW way to get that ability except by fiat :smallyuk:
It is specifically worded in such a way it looks like it was intended to apply to all Undead Barbarians: "An undead creature with the ability to enter a rage gains the morale bonuses from rage despite being immune to morale effects. The bonus to Constitution from the rage applies to an undead creature's Charisma instead."

So you should be able to get the morale bonuses.

[Yanisa]

It wouldn't be too much of an accommodation to get +Cha rounds of rage instead of +Con, either.

You can make a RAW argument too, because all undead (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Undead) have this trait:


No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution(such as when calculating a breath weapon’s DC).

[tropical_punch]

Can't you always willingly lower your immunities?

[The Glyphstone]

You can willingly lower your Spell Resistance, not not your immunities.

[tropical_punch]

From: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic

Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw

A creature can voluntarily forgo a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

This is what I was thinking of, but it seems to only apply to spells, which won't help in this instance.

[Beheld]

Actually, you can totally lower your special immunties:

"Even a character with a special resistance to magic (for example, an elf’s resistance to sleep effects) can suppress this quality." PHB pg. 177

"Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality." SRD.

So that "Immunity to Morale Effects" "Drawback" that people sometimes have just isn't.

EDIT: Wholly Crap Pathfinder is stupid. "use Cha score for Hit points and Fort Saves, but have no con score" is just about the dumbest possible ruling for undead. It makes undead a straight up ultra powerup for Sorcerers for no reason.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Not pathfinder.

[Beheld]

Not pathfinder.

The Pathfinder SRD says the exact same thing as the SRD. The point is the same, there is a line that says that if you have special magical resistance you can suppress it. Immunity to Moral effects is a special resistance, you can suppress it.

[Yanisa]

The Pathfinder SRD says the exact same thing as the SRD. The point is the same, there is a line that says that if you have special magical resistance you can suppress it. Immunity to Moral effects is a special resistance, you can suppress it.

You are forgetting the context the line comes from, its stated in the section "Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw". (3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#voluntarilyGivingupaSavingTh row) and PF SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Saving-Throw)). Rage does not trigger a saving throw, so the rule doesn't work for rage. (Nor is rage a spell or in fact at all magic.)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Well, there IS a spell called rage, but that's besides the point.

[Beheld]

You are forgetting the context the line comes from, its stated in the section "Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw". (3.5 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#voluntarilyGivingupaSavingTh row) and PF SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Saving-Throw)). Rage does not trigger a saving throw, so the rule doesn't work for rage. (Nor is rage a spell or in fact at all magic.)

You are forgetting the context of the quote, it comes from referring to specifically magical immunity effects. That doesn't mean that you can't lower your immunity for no save sleep effects. It means that they put two similar rules right next to each other: "You can voluntarily let an effect you would otherwise resist effect you" and "You can voluntarily let an effect you would otherwise resist effect you."

Elves can voluntarily be put to sleep even by no save sleep effects. Creatures with Cold Immunity can voluntarily take cold damage, even if it comes from Polar Ray or just it being really cold outside, and undead can voluntarily be subject to Greater Heroism. (though they may have to suppress their entire mind affecting immunity for the duration, although maybe just Morale Effects).