Finger of Death question

[titotulky]

"a humanoid killed by this spell rises at the start of your next turn as a zombie"

lets say a lich casts this spell on a half-orc warrior whose HP drop to -5.

what about "relentless endurance"? will the half orc drop to 1 HP instead or will he die and the zombie will spawn?

Thanks for help!! :smile::xykon:

[Sir cryosin]

"a humanoid killed by this spell rises at the start of your next turn as a zombie"

lets say a lich casts this spell on a half-orc warrior whose HP drop to -5.

what about "relentless endurance"? will the half orc drop to 1 HP instead or will he die and the zombie will spawn?

Thanks for help!! :smile::xykon:

There is no negative hp in 5e. If the orc is a pc they are not dead they have to fail there death save throws before they can be classified as dead. But the simple answer to your question is no the spell won't work because he still has 1 hp. Now to get around this is to more damge then his maximum hp after it been pass 0 hp.

[titotulky]

There is no negative hp in 5e. If the orc is a pc they are not dead they have to fail there death save throws before they can be classified as dead. But the simple answer to your question is no the spell won't work because he still has 1 hp. Now to get around this is to more damge then his maximum hp after it been pass 0 hp.

thank you.. makes sense

[Segev]

Oof. The interaction of "killed by this spell" and death saves is an interesting one. Does it just require that this spell be what dropped them to 0 hp? If somebody stabs them while they're dying, does that change the "cause" of death away from the spell?

[Nonah_Me]

It'd be harsh, but I think the intent is to be like the Death Tyrant's anti-healing zombification eye cone. Any creature with 0 HP in the cone is turned into a zombie after 1 round. I think that's what it is, I'm away from my books.

I suppose, to keep it from being too horrible, is I'd allow a second save to keep from being zombified, instead just going to 0 HP and getting into death saves.

[MaxWilson]

My ruling as a DM: you still get death saves, but if you fail them, then the spell is what is considered to have killed you, and you rise as a zombie.

However, if your buddy cuts your throat while you're at 0 HP (+2 failed death saves because auto-crit), and you die from THAT, you do not rise as a zombie. It was your buddy that killed you, not the spell.

[Segev]

My ruling as a DM: you still get death saves, but if you fail them, then the spell is what is considered to have killed you, and you rise as a zombie.

However, if your buddy cuts your throat while you're at 0 HP (+2 failed death saves because auto-crit), and you die from THAT, you do not rise as a zombie. It was your buddy that killed you, not the spell.

This bugs me thematically. I'm going to reference zombie movies to illustrate my point, but please don't assume I'm limiting myself to that genre for the convention upon which I'm drawing.

If somebody is bitten by a zombie in a zombie movie where they're "the infected," you don't see somebody else slitting their throat or stabbing them in the heart to prevent them from rising as a zombie when that infection kills them. You do see them engaging in actions that would kill the zombie pre-emptively (usually decapitation or headsploding), but that's almost more along the lines of attacking a prone and helpless zombie and going through all of its hp, not finishing off somebody who's right at 0 hp.

In more general, 5e-related terms, unless the "friend mercy kill" action would completely destroy the zombie, it bugs me that the zombification process is interrupted by simply stabbing you, when you were ALREADY dying from the finger of death. It's kind of like saying, "He didn't die of cholera, because I shot him before he could. So his corpse isn't contagious." Or whatever the disease was in Velveteen Rabbit that required the whole of that kid's bedclothes and possessions to be burned after the fact.

[RickAllison]

I agree with Segev. Unless other actions are taken to prevent the death or prevent the corpse from rising (even more uses for Disintegrate! ... Goodberry would be a much better choice, however. I'd think they would get all of their death saves as well, as they haven't died until that point.

[Segev]

I agree with Segev. Unless other actions are taken to prevent the death or prevent the corpse from rising (even more uses for Disintegrate! ... Goodberry would be a much better choice, however. I'd think they would get all of their death saves as well, as they haven't died until that point.

Yeah, certainly anything that healed them so they were no longer dying would prevent that clause of finger of death from triggering. It would expressly take something else then to make them die. The finger of death demonstrably did not cause their death.

Less the case, at least narratively, with "I stab my dying buddy who is dying because he got finger of deathed." Nothing has changed the animating process, thematically.

[Vogonjeltz]

"a humanoid killed by this spell rises at the start of your next turn as a zombie"

lets say a lich casts this spell on a half-orc warrior whose HP drop to -5.

what about "relentless endurance"? will the half orc drop to 1 HP instead or will he die and the zombie will spawn?

Thanks for help!!

No worries, it's a conditional statement. For the zombie to occur, the humanoid must be killed. Ergo, if the humanoid isn't killed, no zombie happens.

If the Half-Orc in your example has more than a 5 hit point maximum, he wouldn't be subject to the instant death rule, so he wouldn't die and would not become a zombie.

Relentless endurance is a great feature.

[MaxWilson]

This bugs me thematically. I'm going to reference zombie movies to illustrate my point, but please don't assume I'm limiting myself to that genre for the convention upon which I'm drawing.

If somebody is bitten by a zombie in a zombie movie where they're "the infected," you don't see somebody else slitting their throat or stabbing them in the heart to prevent them from rising as a zombie when that infection kills them. You do see them engaging in actions that would kill the zombie pre-emptively (usually decapitation or headsploding), but that's almost more along the lines of attacking a prone and helpless zombie and going through all of its hp, not finishing off somebody who's right at 0 hp.

In more general, 5e-related terms, unless the "friend mercy kill" action would completely destroy the zombie, it bugs me that the zombification process is interrupted by simply stabbing you, when you were ALREADY dying from the finger of death. It's kind of like saying, "He didn't die of cholera, because I shot him before he could. So his corpse isn't contagious." Or whatever the disease was in Velveteen Rabbit that required the whole of that kid's bedclothes and possessions to be burned after the fact.

If it bugs you thematically, then of course you can rule the opposite way. I happen to like the thematics of "kill him quick before the necromancy takes over" so that is why I picked what I did.

[EvadableMoxie]

Nothing about Finger of death states that a person reduced to zero HP by this spell dies immediately without the normal death saving throws.

My guess is that probably weren't thinking about enemies casting it on PCs when they wrote it that way, because if a player cast it you certainly wouldn't give the enemy they cast it on death saving throws before they came back as a zombie.

So even though I'd say RAW the player gets death saving throws, I'd house rule it for the sake of consistency to say being reduced to 0 HP by the spell results in death.

However, the Half-orc ability allows you to go to 1 HP instead of 0 when not killed outright, so using the Half-orc ability means you never hit 0 HP in the first place.

So then the question is, does the spell reduce you to zero HP and then kill you, or just instantly kill you? I'm inclined to think you hit 0 HP first and therefore a Half-orc can use his racial to survive.

[Segev]

Nothing about Finger of death states that a person reduced to zero HP by this spell dies immediately without the normal death saving throws.

My guess is that probably weren't thinking about enemies casting it on PCs when they wrote it that way, because if a player cast it you certainly wouldn't give the enemy they cast it on death saving throws before they came back as a zombie.

So even though I'd say RAW the player gets death saving throws, I'd house rule it for the sake of consistency to say being reduced to 0 HP by the spell results in death.

However, the Half-orc ability allows you to go to 1 HP instead of 0 when not killed outright, so using the Half-orc ability means you never hit 0 HP in the first place.

So then the question is, does the spell reduce you to zero HP and then kill you, or just instantly kill you? I'm inclined to think you hit 0 HP first and therefore a Half-orc can use his racial to survive.
It doesn't say it kills you by any means other than damage, does it? If not, I would say that the Half-Orc racial power works.

[Slipperychicken]

I think I'd rule that the PCs have one round to get the target to 1hp or higher. If time's up and the target is still unstable at 0hp (or dead), then he rises as a zombie. That preserves the intent of the spell, and lets the half orc feature work (he's back to 1hp and okay), without overreaching in game balance.

[RickAllison]

I think I'd rule that the PCs have one round to get the target to 1hp or higher. If time's up and the target is still unstable at 0hp (or dead), then he rises as a zombie. That preserves the intent of the spell, and lets the half orc feature work (he's back to 1hp and okay), without overreaching in game balance.

I kinda like that idea. Of course, I also love Shadow Dragons who get that as a breath weapon, so I might be biased :smallbiggrin:

[MaxWilson]

I kinda like that idea. Of course, I also love Shadow Dragons who get that as a breath weapon, so I might be biased :smallbiggrin:

Hooray for True Polymorph (Shadow Dragon)!

[RickAllison]

Hooray for True Polymorph (Shadow Dragon)!

Yes! Go Ancient White at 20 or Adult Red at 17, TP in Shadowfell, then enjoy your new servants as you kill a crowded marketplace and recruit them all as undead >:)

Also fun to do on the other side of the screen :smallwink: