Optimizing a Tempest 17/Storm Sorc 3

[Gtdead]

Hello,

I'm building a cleric character for a 3 man party that is supposed to do a bit of everything. I started building this character as a concept and as it happens, it has some interesting optimization options, but I'm not very sure on how to do it best. Also this is my first time playing 5e so while in theory I can see my build work, I can't be sure.

My intended role is a frontline controller with steady dpr and some support magic. At first I thought of the polemaster+sentinel combo, which sounds awesome in paper but after some thought I realized that these two feats are too narrow in scope. And I think another class may be able to pull this better than mine, especially one with a lot of ASI like fighter. My character needs str, wis and con, and getting these 2 feats sounds like too much of an investment.

So I decided to find an alternative, and it came in the form of booming blade. The idea is that once the build comes together, I will use booming blade on a target, and then push him back with thunderbolt strike, forcing him to either move and take damage, or stay there doing nothing. That's where the sorcerer 3 comes in with quicken spell. Booming+quickened call lightning (which can be maximized for a considerable damage per round. And since call lightning is lightning damage, I can use thunderbolt strike to push the target out of range.

My questions are these:

I'm thinking of starting as sorcerer, for con saving throws and access to booming blade, is there any rule preventing me doing that due to low charisma? I can't seem to find anything of the sort, but I may have missed something.

Since I start as a sorc, I won't have wisdom proficiency. Should I take the resilient feat? It seems like the most common save but I will max wisdom anyway. DM said that he will allow high level spellcasters to change the element of their spells like a bonus feat (like archmage from 3.5), so best case scenario is that I will forgo elemental adept and it's going to be either resilient and 18 str, or 20 str without resilient. Is it worth the tradeoff? Race is human variant and I will take warcaster as the extra feat.

What happens when I quicken call lightning? Is the whole spell quickened for the duration of concentration? I would think not, but apparently channel divinity works like that (according to sage advice). Also since technically calling a lightning strike is just an action (and not a spell?), can it be quickened at all? And if yes, can I call 2 lightning strikes per round with quicken? I know that this may differ from dm to dm, but I'm interested in rules as written.

Any advice or criticism is appreciated.

[Talamare]

Why do you want to be in melee range at all tho?

Just keep your distance and you won't need STR

[rtrnofdmax]

My questions are these:

I'm thinking of starting as sorcerer, for con saving throws and access to booming blade, is there any rule preventing me doing that due to low charisma? I can't seem to find anything of the sort, but I may have missed something.

To Multiclass either out of or into Sorcerer, you have to have Cha 13. There is a table on the first page of the MC rules that shows the requirements for each class. You have to meet the requirements of the class you are, and the class you plan to take your next levels in, to be able to MC.

It's basically a guard against dipping to get class features only. No offense but, what you're thinking of doing.

[Gtdead]

Why do you want to be in melee range at all tho?

Just keep your distance and you won't need STR

3 man party without a dedicated melee. I will be the one to go into melee. We have a necromancer wizard and the third guy isn't sure yet, but he wants to play a caster too.


To Multiclass either out of or into Sorcerer, you have to have Cha 13. There is a table on the first page of the MC rules that shows the requirements for each class. You have to meet the requirements of the class you are, and the class you plan to take your next levels in, to be able to MC.

It's basically a guard against dipping to get class features only. No offense but, what you're thinking of doing.

Right, I missed that part. 13 cha then. I think I can work with that, probably dumb dex.

[Limited Gish]

Storm Sorc 6/ Tempest Cleric 14 is a personal favorite of mine. Booming Blade + quickened Shocking Grasp is solid. The concept isn't super strong, but it's solid BFC. Also, Quickened maximized Lightning Bolt out of a 7th level slot is brutal, especially on top of another solid hit. Also like lightning Lure when you can either get above enemies or have an area effect in place. Lightning Lure through a wall of fire? Yes please. Pushing them back through the wall of fire? Even better. (This is a more complicated combo because you need a way to see them to get them with the lure and the wall of opaque, but the idea works with Cloud of daggers and the like as well. I think?)

[Sir cryosin]

If you don't mind getting hit you could all ways just booming blade and walk away if they do hit you you can just thunderous rebuke them.

[Gtdead]

Storm Sorc 6/ Tempest Cleric 14 is a personal favorite of mine. Booming Blade + quickened Shocking Grasp is solid. The concept isn't super strong, but it's solid BFC. Also, Quickened maximized Lightning Bolt out of a 7th level slot is brutal, especially on top of another solid hit. Also like lightning Lure when you can either get above enemies or have an area effect in place. Lightning Lure through a wall of fire? Yes please. Pushing them back through the wall of fire? Even better. (This is a more complicated combo because you need a way to see them to get them with the lure and the wall of opaque, but the idea works with Cloud of daggers and the like as well. I think?)

I hadn't considered more sorcerer levels. Just wanted to do something with the last 3 levels, since cleric doesn't get anything special and dm doesn't seem too thrilled about divine intervention. The lure through wall of fire sounds very cool though!


If you don't mind getting hit you could all ways just booming blade and walk away if they do hit you you can just thunderous rebuke them.

I don't really want to get hit, just to find a reliable way to force booming blade while still be able to do a respectable damage per turn without having to prepare too many damaging spells.

[EvadableMoxie]

Hello,

I will use booming blade on a target, and then push him back with thunderbolt strike, forcing him to either move and take damage, or stay there doing nothing.

Booming blade does Thunder damage. Thunderbolt strike only allows you push back enemies when you deal Lightning damage. That isn't a deal-breaker, but you should be aware of it before you commit.

Maybe you can talk your DM into allowing it, but I wouldn't because the combo is pretty OP.

Once enemies get multiple attacks, it can often be worth it to take the AO and backoff, forcing them to take the booming blade damage if they want to get more than 1 attack off on you in a round. It also keeps enemies on you and not your other two party members, who might not have full plate and shields.

[Gtdead]

Booming blade does Thunder damage. Thunderbolt strike only allows you push back enemies when you deal Lightning damage.

Maybe you can talk your DM into allowing it, but I wouldn't because the combo is pretty OP.

I'm doing the push through a quickened lightning strike from call lightning. That's the reason I want to multiclass a sorcerer. Or at least I'm hoping that this is possible. It's my third question.

[EvadableMoxie]

I'm doing the push through a quickened lightning strike from call lightning. That's the reason I want to multiclass a sorcerer.

You could do that with the initial casting, but not with the call downs. Quicken says when you cast a spell with a casting time of an action it changes the casting time to a bonus action. It doesn't effect subsequent uses of a spell. It's still good action economy though, admittedly, since you'll often want to cast the spell anyway.

Quicken spell costs 2 sorcerer points, and you have 3 total, and only once you have 3 levels in sorcerer. You can convert a level 1 slot into 2 points and do it, but doing so is a bonus action so you can't do it on the same turn you actually do the combo.

Beyond that, it'll work. I'm not sure it's worth it, but it'll work. I'd personally just grab booming blade via a feat, or at most take 1 sorcerer level and not bother with quicken spell. It doesn't seem to be worth the resources to me.

[Oramac]

A few thoughts from a guy playing Storm Sorc / Temp Cleric in AL currently.

First, are you playing a Home Game or Adventurers League?

- I assume you're playing a Storm Sorcerer to go with the Tempest Cleric? EDIT: nevermind. Call Lightning is good to go.

- Start Cleric for Heavy Armor and Martial weapons. Since you're going more into cleric than sorc, that'll help more than Con saves and medium armor. Not getting hit is better than getting hit and making a Con save.

- If you desperately want Con saves, take Resilient (Con), but I don't think it'll be needed.

- For your metamagic, use Quicken and Twin. Also, pick up Chromatic Orb and Lightning Bolt. You can Maximize both, and Twin Chromatic Orb. A twinned, maxed orb is nasty. As is a maxed Lightning Bolt.

- When you get the Storm Sorc features, don't forget to use Tempestuous Magic. It's one of the most severely underrated features in the game, imo. It has literally saved my life more than once. Also remember that TM works in 3 dimensions. You can hop to the top of a 10 foot high wall with it as easy as moving 10 feet away.

- Booming Blade requires the target to move of its own will. "If the target willingly moves before then..." Forced movement from Thunderbolt Strike (or any other spell of yours) will NOT trigger the movement damage.

- I'd honestly pick up Elemental Adept. It's going to really help make the most of those maximized Lightning Bolts/Chromatic Orbs.


That's all I got for now. Hope it helps, and have fun!!

[Xethik]

- I assume you're playing a Storm Sorcerer to go with the Tempest Cleric? If so, you can't use Call Lightning since it's in the Elemental Evil book. (this is irrelevant if you're not playing in Adventure League)


I'm fairly certain Call Lightning is a PHB Spell. It is a Druid staple. Are you referring to Thunderclap?

[Oramac]

I'm fairly certain Call Lightning is a PHB Spell. It is a Druid staple. Are you referring to Thunderclap?

Dangit. You're absolutely right. Good catch! Call Lightning is good to go!

In either case, it still wouldn't work with Booming Blade.

[Belac93]

I would suggest booming blade, ability scores (before race adustments): STR 15, CON 14 DEX 10, INT 8 WIS 15 CHA 8

[Gtdead]

You could do that with the initial casting, but not with the call downs. Quicken says when you cast a spell with a casting time of an action it changes the casting time to a bonus action. It doesn't effect subsequent uses of a spell. It's still good action economy though, admittedly, since you'll often want to cast the spell anyway.

Quicken spell costs 2 sorcerer points, and you have 3 total, and only once you have 3 levels in sorcerer. You can convert a level 1 slot into 2 points and do it, but doing so is a bonus action so you can't do it on the same turn you actually do the combo.

Beyond that, it'll work. I'm not sure it's worth it, but it'll work. I'd personally just grab booming blade via a feat, or at most take 1 sorcerer level and not bother with quicken spell. It doesn't seem to be worth the resources to me.

As long as I can do both a booming blade and call lightning damage in a round, it's fine. I think it's better than just going 20 cleric anyway. I may even be able to twin it. I will probably spend a lot of time in melee anyway. Being able to do an extra weapon attack plus a potential 7d8 on top of a maximized call lightning is way better than anything a cleric 20 will give.


A few thoughts from a guy playing Storm Sorc / Temp Cleric in AL currently.

First, are you playing a Home Game or Adventurers League?

- I assume you're playing a Storm Sorcerer to go with the Tempest Cleric? EDIT: nevermind. Call Lightning is good to go.

- Start Cleric for Heavy Armor and Martial weapons. Since you're going more into cleric than sorc, that'll help more than Con saves and medium armor. Not getting hit is better than getting hit and making a Con save.

- If you desperately want Con saves, take Resilient (Con), but I don't think it'll be needed.

- For your metamagic, use Quicken and Twin. Also, pick up Chromatic Orb and Lightning Bolt. You can Maximize both, and Twin Chromatic Orb. A twinned, maxed orb is nasty. As is a maxed Lightning Bolt.

- When you get the Storm Sorc features, don't forget to use Tempestuous Magic. It's one of the most severely underrated features in the game, imo. It has literally saved my life more than once. Also remember that TM works in 3 dimensions. You can hop to the top of a 10 foot high wall with it as easy as moving 10 feet away.

- Booming Blade requires the target to move of its own will. "If the target willingly moves before then..." Forced movement from Thunderbolt Strike (or any other spell of yours) will NOT trigger the movement damage.

- I'd honestly pick up Elemental Adept. It's going to really help make the most of those maximized Lightning Bolts/Chromatic Orbs.


That's all I got for now. Hope it helps, and have fun!!

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm playing a home game.
I know about the booming blade proc. The point of pushing the target is to force him to make a move if he wants to get into melee range again.
Only reason I won't pick elemental adept is because of a homebrew feat that the dm wants to give to high level spellcasters. Otherwise it's a no brainer.

Just one question.

While the multiclass table says that you get up to medium armor from cleric, the tempest domain says that you get heavy and martial weapons at lvl 1. Isn't that a general vs specific rule kind of thing? I'm not that familiar with all the rules yet.

[EvadableMoxie]

As long as I can do both a booming blade and call lightning damage in a round, it's fine. I think it's better than just going 20 cleric anyway. I may even be able to twin it. I will probably spend a lot of time in melee anyway. Being able to do an extra weapon attack plus a potential 7d8 on top of a maximized call lightning is way better than anything a cleric 20 will give.

Sure, 17 Cleric / 3 Sorc is better than 20 Cleric, but is 2 Cleric / 3 Sorc better than 5 Cleric? Is 3 Sorc 8 Cleric better than 11 Cleric? The game doesn't start at level 20. The vast majority of characters never get to 20 and the ones that do take years. (Unless you are starting at high level already.)

If you are okay with that, it's fine, but just don't forget to consider how the build is at lower levels instead of just looking at 20.

[Gtdead]

Sure, 17 Cleric / 3 Sorc is better than 20 Cleric, but is 2 Cleric / 3 Sorc better than 5 Cleric? Is 3 Sorc 8 Cleric better than 11 Cleric? The game doesn't start at level 20. The vast majority of characters never get to 20 and the ones that do take years. (Unless you are starting at high level already.)

If you are okay with that, it's fine, but just don't forget to consider how the build is at lower levels instead of just looking at 20.

I was planning on doing a sorc 1/cleric x, and pick the next 2 sorc levels when I feel comfortable doing so. I think level 3 spells are the strongest point of a cleric, so I will probably do a 1 sorc/5 cleric into a 3 sorc/5 cleric. Nothing is set in stone of course, I may do a 17 cleric and then add 3 sorc levels. The average damage charts I made indicate that the best time to bother with metamagic feats is after lvl 5. It will depend on how the party will fair till then, but I think a 1 sorc/cleric x is versatile enough.

[RulesJD]

Damn, and to think just a few months ago people called my Tempest Cleric/Sorc build crazy.

Personally, I recommend going Wild Magic sorc over Storm Sorc. The advantage generation is fantastic and more useful than burning a bonus action to move a bit. Plus almost all the Surges are beneficial.

*edit* Always go Sorc first for the Con saves. You pickup heavy armor/weapons from Tempest Cleric regardless of multiclassing.

[CaptAl]

Just one question.

While the multiclass table says that you get up to medium armor from cleric, the tempest domain says that you get heavy and martial weapons at lvl 1. Isn't that a general vs specific rule kind of thing? I'm not that familiar with all the rules yet.

Once you choose the domain you get the proficiency from the domain. It doesn't matter what you start out as. You get heavy armor and martial weapons upon choosing the tempest domain. At least that's my reading of the ability. It's why picking up a level of cleric is so sweet for squishy classes.

Have you considered going Oath of the Ancients Paladin with some storm Sorc mixed in? I would think the wizard could control quite well. You could be a ridiculously tough tank with 7 levels of OotA plus shield spells, booming blades, and great mobility from Sorc. Plus it'll make you less MAD, and offer solid control. Plus smites are easier to come by than the couple a rest channel divinity maximized lightning bolts. Just a thought.

[wunderkid]

The mobile feat is amazing for forcing their movement. Use booming blade. Take a step back. Flip them the bird. If you're the only melee then it works even better and saves your spell slots. Rock sentinel and polearm master for more shenanigans and really frustrate the frick out of them (although this requires a lot more feats, mobile never hurts for getting out of a tight spot or should you anger a Dragon or other such nasty outrunning your friends)

[bid]

I would suggest booming blade, ability scores (before race adustments): STR 15, CON 14 DEX 10, INT 8 WIS 15 CHA 8
Cha13 for sorcerer MC.

[RickAllison]

The mobile feat is amazing for forcing their movement. Use booming blade. Take a step back. Flip them the bird. If you're the only melee then it works even better and saves your spell slots. Rock sentinel and polearm master for more shenanigans and really frustrate the frick out of them (although this requires a lot more feats, mobile never hurts for getting out of a tight spot or should you anger a Dragon or other such nasty outrunning your friends)

Doesn't help OP, but could be fun for DMs! Polearm-wielding Marilith with PAM, Warcaster, and Spell Sniper. With her innate Reactive, she gets to attack each person who tries to enter her reach with a Booming Blade. Who needs to have Sentinel when she can just deal damage!

[wunderkid]

Ahh that wasn't what I was intending. Iirc polearm master + warcaster was answered to not being usable with spells?

Perhaps it's my memory wanting to remember it this way but I think the sage advice said that the AoO had to be with the polearm. (to stop eldrich blast pushback shenanigans I think)

So does this mean that as technically booming uses the polearm it would work?

[bid]

Ahh that wasn't what I was intending. Iirc polearm master + warcaster was answered to not being usable with spells?
- Sentinel's reaction is not an OA
- Warcaster OA requires movement

[RickAllison]

- Sentinel's reaction is not an OA
- Warcaster OA requires movement

No, Sentinel's reaction is not an OA. You are correct.
Warcaster's OA does not require movement. The only restriction is that it has to have a casting time of one action and only target that creature.

[bid]

No, Sentinel's reaction is not an OA. You are correct.
Warcaster's OA does not require movement. The only restriction is that it has to have a casting time of one action and only target that creature.
"When a hostile creature's movement provokes ..."

[RickAllison]

"When a hostile creature's movement provokes ..."

Oh, thaaat clause. The same thing that affects every OA?

[wunderkid]

Well I wasn't talking about sentinel. I was talking about polearm master mainly.

They walk up to 10ft away from you.
Polearm master lets you use an AoO when someone enters your reach (i believe sage says has to use the polearm but need citation but for the purpose of this I'll assume that's the case, happy to be corrected though).

Warcaster let's you use said AoO to cast booming blade (it uses the polearm). I'd also say that their movement is what procs off polearm masters AoO. Now a rules lawyer could get super uppity and say their movement triggers polearm master and polearm master triggers an AoO (invalidating the 'when a hostile creatures movement provokes an attack of opportunity bit of Warcaster) but that seems clutching at straws to me and a game with that strict adherence to RAW will have way more broken combos.

They then have the choice of finishing their movement to get close to you proccing the booming blade or ending 10ft away so they don't take the damage.

As best as I can tell this is legit and a pretty good way of running a booming blade caster. Especially combined with mobile, attack with booming, move back, they move triggering booming, they get to 10ft, you booming again, they trigger again get in close. Manage to hit you and trigger armour of aga. rinse repeat. They opt not to follow you then sit back and poke them with spells after all you're a mostly full caster so will have plenty to throw about.

Pretty nifty for a cantrip and one spell slot for the armour I think. Not good for every situation of course. But when it does turn up you can make the fighters and barbarians cry.

Edit: Forgot that BB has a range of 5ft so the tactic does not work without spell sniper. By this point its getting too ASI dependant to be as viable. But still a cool fun little combo imo

[bid]

Well I wasn't talking about sentinel. I was talking about polearm master mainly.
Erm right, sorry about that :smallwink:

Shame about spell sniper, as you say.

[Gtdead]

Have you considered going Oath of the Ancients Paladin with some storm Sorc mixed in? I would think the wizard could control quite well. You could be a ridiculously tough tank with 7 levels of OotA plus shield spells, booming blades, and great mobility from Sorc. Plus it'll make you less MAD, and offer solid control. Plus smites are easier to come by than the couple a rest channel divinity maximized lightning bolts. Just a thought.

I haven't considered paladin because the character is a concept but thanks for the suggestion. I want to stay as a cleric, and if I could actually persuade the dm to give me something useful instead of divine intervention I'd probably go cleric 20. He really dislikes the "wish" type of abilities. Just trying to find a use for the last 3 levels.


The mobile feat is amazing for forcing their movement. Use booming blade. Take a step back. Flip them the bird. If you're the only melee then it works even better and saves your spell slots. Rock sentinel and polearm master for more shenanigans and really frustrate the frick out of them (although this requires a lot more feats, mobile never hurts for getting out of a tight spot or should you anger a Dragon or other such nasty outrunning your friends)

If only I could take that many feats... :p
Although mobile does seem like a good alternative for resilient, in fact I was wondering how my build would do against huge enemies that can't be pushed back. I like that idea!