Max number of healed HP per long rest

[8wGremlin]

I have a campaign concept that I need some mechanical help with.

At 1st level what are the most hit points that a character can cast in a long rest.

would a human life cleric with magic initiate Druid for good berry shenanigans be the best or a Druid. What other classes can cure?

But how much is HP are cured. Min-Max and average?

Thanks.

[MaxWilson]

I have a campaign concept that I need some mechanical help with.

At 1st level what are the most hit points that a character can cast in a long rest.

would a human life cleric with magic initiate Druid for good berry shenanigans be the best or a Druid. What other classes can cure?

But how much is HP are cured. Min-Max and average?

Thanks.

I'm not sure about 1st level, but if you're interested in extreme healing you should look into Life Cleric 1/Lore Bard 6/Sorcerer 3. By level 10 he can be healing over 2000 HP per long rest. Add Warlock 5 for another 480 HP per short rest.

[Talamare]

At 1st level what are the most hit points that a character can cast in a long rest.
would a human life cleric with magic initiate Druid for good berry shenanigans be the best or a Druid. What other classes can cure?

I know how they officially ruled it, but I wouldn't allow it in any games I DM.
However, yes that it.

Goodberries would be 40 HP, since you can only cast it once
Then you get 2 casts of Cure Wounds for another 2d8+12, assuming Array Wis 16

So, 54~68
Note if you rule that Goodberries does not work with Domain Healing, it goes down to 24~38. Which is a lot more reasonable.

Nothing else even comes close
Normal Healing Cleric = 14~28
Normal Druid = 20
Normal Bard = 8~22
Normal Paladin = 5

Any Variant Human would be either another 4~12 or 10

[Lines]

I know how they officially ruled it, but I wouldn't allow it in any games I DM.
However, yes that it.

Goodberries would be 40 HP, since you can only cast it once
Then you get 2 casts of Cure Wounds for another 2d8+12, assuming Array Wis 16

So, 54~68
Note if you rule that Goodberries does not work with Domain Healing, it goes down to 24~38. Which is a lot more reasonable.

Nothing else even comes close
Normal Healing Cleric = 14~28
Normal Druid = 20
Normal Bard = 8~22
Normal Paladin = 5

Any Variant Human would be either another 4~12 or 10

But they're going out of their way and wasting a feat or class level for that specific combination, which in any case only affects out of combat healing. Obviously it's going to be out of the normal range, the character is specifically specialising in it. Why would you want to punish that?

[pwykersotz]

But they're going out of their way and wasting a feat or class level for that specific combination, which in any case only affects out of combat healing. Obviously it's going to be out of the normal range, the character is specifically specialising in it. Why would you want to punish that?

Because different people have different ideas about the bounds of the game and statistical outliers. It could just as easily be questioned the other way with regards to people who ban GWM. Some things stretch the bounds of the type of game you want to have, and fortunately 5e is flexible enough to accommodate both.

[MaxWilson]

Because different people have different ideas about the bounds of the game and statistical outliers. It could just as easily be questioned the other way with regards to people who ban GWM. Some things stretch the bounds of the type of game you want to have, and fortunately 5e is flexible enough to accommodate both.

And some people (like myself) reject the Goodberry ruling not on "game balance" grounds (since Aura of Vitality is more efficient anyway, even with Life Cleric in play) but because it conflicts with the PHB rules. The rules contortions you have to go through to make someone else eating a berry count as you "healing... with a spell" lead directly to abominations like a Necromancer who kills "with a spell" every time one of his skeletons kills an enemy, thereby restoring HP to the Necromancer via Grim Harvest.

Some of us like to take the rules at face value.

[Slipperychicken]

But they're going out of their way and wasting a feat or class level for that specific combination, which in any case only affects out of combat healing. Obviously it's going to be out of the normal range, the character is specifically specialising in it. Why would you want to punish that?

It's exceedingly strong for managing hit point resources. The party should be going into nearly every fight at full hp if it's allowed. They will have much greater endurance than the system assumes. This may be desired, however, by DMs who feel limited by the party's daily resource constraints, and want them to go through more fights in a day.

It works out like this: Before every long rest, you take the spell slots this guy has left and is willing to devote to Goodberry. Now you multiply the number of first level spells by 40, 50 for second level spells, and so on. Add it all together. The party can get that much free out-of-combat healing for 16 hours after the long rest is done. The caster would want to carry a few hundred berries around for the spell, but that isn't such an issue once he finds reliable means for acquiring and preserving them. Nevermind I forgot that the spell creates the berries for you.


As for how a strong a feat for out-of-combat healing should be, the Healer feat should be taken as a benchmark. It is completely outclassed by this application of Goodberry. This should be an indication that it's way too powerful of a feat choice.

[Lines]

And some people (like myself) reject the Goodberry ruling not on "game balance" grounds (since Aura of Vitality is more efficient anyway, even with Life Cleric in play) but because it conflicts with the PHB rules. The rules contortions you have to go through to make someone else eating a berry count as you "healing... with a spell" lead directly to abominations like a Necromancer who kills "with a spell" every time one of his skeletons kills an enemy, thereby restoring HP to the Necromancer via Grim Harvest.

Some of us like to take the rules at face value.

I'd certainly allow that. All the non-6 necromancer features are crap and very few do any killing with necromancy spells because they're not good at offense, I'd happily let grim harvest work with the undead they raised.

[MaxWilson]

It's exceedingly strong for managing hit point resources. The party should be going into nearly every fight at full hp if it's allowed. They will have much greater endurance than the system assumes. This may be desired, however, by DMs who feel limited by the party's daily resource constraints, and want them to go through more fights in a day.

It works out like this: Before every long rest, you take the spell slots this guy has left and is willing to devote to Goodberry. Now you multiply the number of first level spells by 40, 50 for second level spells, and so on. Add it all together. The party can get that much free out-of-combat healing for 16 hours after the long rest is done. The caster would want to carry a few hundred berries around for the spell, but that isn't such an issue once he finds reliable means for acquiring and preserving them.

As for how a strong a feat for out-of-combat healing should be, the Healer feat should be taken as a benchmark. It is completely outclassed by this application of Goodberry. This should be an indication that it's way too powerful of a feat choice.

Third-level Greatberry with Disciple of Life counted: 60 HP of healing from one third-level slot.
Third-level Extended Aura of Vitality: 240 HP of healing from one third-level slot and a sorcery point.

Incidentally though, I kind of like the Healer feat. Unlimited popup healing for one. Scales to any number of summons for another.


I'd certainly allow that. All the non-6 necromancer features are crap and very few do any killing with necromancy spells because they're not good at offense, I'd happily let grim harvest work with the undead they raised.

Wow. You're seriously okay with a Necromancer regaining 21 HP every time his Finger of Death zombie kills a mook? Well, I guess I know how I'd build a tank at your table: Fighter 1, Necromancer X. :) Bring along a sackful of 2cp chickens for free healing between combats, and also for eating.

[Lines]

It's exceedingly strong for managing hit point resources. The party should be going into nearly every fight at full hp if it's allowed. They will have much greater endurance than the system assumes. This may be desired, however, by DMs who feel limited by the party's daily resource constraints, and want them to go through more fights in a day.

It works out like this: Before every long rest, you take the spell slots this guy has left and is willing to devote to Goodberry. Now you multiply the number of first level spells by 40, 50 for second level spells, and so on. Add it all together. The party can get that much free out-of-combat healing for 16 hours after the long rest is done. The caster would want to carry a few hundred berries around for the spell, but that isn't such an issue once he finds reliable means for acquiring and preserving them.


As for how a strong a feat for out-of-combat healing should be, the Healer feat should be taken as a benchmark. It is completely outclassed by this application of Goodberry. This should be an indication that it's way too powerful of a feat choice.

But the healer feat is crap and there are a bunch of ways to restore health outside of combat. They're reducing their combat efficiency in exchange for out of combat efficiency, that seems absolutely fine to me.

[Slipperychicken]

Third-level Greatberry with Disciple of Life counted: 60 HP of healing from one third-level slot.
Third-level Extended Aura of Vitality: 240 HP of healing from one third-level slot and a sorcery point.

Goodberries can be saved up from the previous day's slots. Also, you can use first and second level slots for 40 and 50hp, respectively. Mid and high level casters often have 1st and 2nd level slots to spare for this.

Aura of Vitality must be cast at the time of need (using the current day's spell slots), and requires a 3rd level slot or higher, but it does heal more hit points when cast.

[MaxWilson]

Goodberries can be saved up from the previous day's slots. Also, you can use first and second level slots for 40 and 50hp, respectively. Mid and high level casters often have 1st and 2nd level slots to spare for this.

Aura of Vitality must be cast at the time of need (using the current day's spell slots), and requires a 3rd level slot or higher, but it does heal more hit points when cast.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were arguing against the Greatberry interpretation on the grounds that it is too powerful/lets the party easily avoid HP attrition. Since Aura of Vitality is indisputably legal and is also better in most ways than Greatberry, that argument seems to fall pretty flat.

It's true that Greatberry has some advantages relative to Aura of Vitality which partially offset its negatives--mostly the "pre-casting" aspect--but overall I just don't buy the argument that Greatberry is anywhere close to as good. Yes, you can spend "unused" slots, but since it takes you 3x to 4x as many slots to heal, even if you saved all of your slots yesterday and (dangerously) blew them on Goodberry before going to sleep, Aura of Vitality would still provide about 2x as much healing today as you get out of yesterday's + today's slots. Aura of Vitality also scales better once you take Warlock 5, at which point I get about as much healing out of two short rests as you do out of a whole 24-hour period. (Approximately 1000 HP of healing.)

[Talamare]

Max, is your current argument that there is an even more exploitative build, so less efficient exploitative builds are okay?

[Lines]

Max, is your current argument that there is an even more exploitative build, so less efficient exploitative builds are okay?

How is any of what he mentioned exploitative? It's combining healing boosts with healing spells, what else were the healing boosts supposed to be for?

[Theodoxus]

Third-level Extended Aura of Vitality: 240 HP of healing from one third-level slot and a sorcery point.

Can you walk me through this?
Auta of Vitality cures 1 dude per round, for 2d6 (average 7) for 1 minute (or 70 hps, on average). Extended, brings that to 2 minutes (or 140 hps, on average). Are you just super lucky with dice?

Granted, that's still 80 more than a level 3 goodberry... but... you're also looking at a level 5 Paladin or level 6 Bard as a base, and a level 2 Sorcerer. So, minimum of 7th level character to outheal a level 5 cleric? Congrats?

I mean, I guess that's awesome... although at this point (especially if you went the paladin route), throw a level of life cleric on there and then you have some potent healing, at 7+5, or 12 average.. hey, is that what you're talking about? That'd be 240 HP of healing... from a level 8 or 9 character... that's MC'd in a moronic fashion... cool story bro.


And I don't buy into your premise that you have to twist RAW to get GB to work with DoL - DoL specifies "restore hit points" not "cure", not "heal" - restore. Goodberry specifies "restores 1 hit point". Same words means same words. Sorry you don't like it, but that's RAW, and RAI per Crawford.

[Talamare]

Can you walk me through this?
Auta of Vitality cures 1 dude per round, for 2d6 (average 7) for 1 minute (or 70 hps, on average). Extended, brings that to 2 minutes (or 140 hps, on average). Are you just super lucky with dice?

Granted, that's still 80 more than a level 3 goodberry... but... you're also looking at a level 5 Paladin or level 6 Bard as a base, and a level 2 Sorcerer. So, minimum of 7th level character to outheal a level 5 cleric? Congrats?

I mean, I guess that's awesome... although at this point (especially if you went the paladin route), throw a level of life cleric on there and then you have some potent healing, at 7+5, or 12 average.. hey, is that what you're talking about? That'd be 240 HP of healing... from a level 8 or 9 character... that's MC'd in a moronic fashion... cool story bro.


And I don't buy into your premise that you have to twist RAW to get GB to work with DoL - DoL specifies "restore hit points" not "cure", not "heal" - restore. Goodberry specifies "restores 1 hit point". Same words means same words. Sorry you don't like it, but that's RAW, and RAI per Crawford.

Cleric adds another 5 per heal, increasing it by another 50 per minute / 100 total

Paladin doesn't get Aura of Vitality until 9, so it's 6 Bard and Metamagic comes in at 3 Sorcerer
making it 9th level minimal to get Extended Vitality

Let's see if I can just type up some break points to clarify
1 - Life Cleric - 48~62 (using 3 spell slots)
2 - Life Cleric / Druid - 120 (using 3 spell slots)
6 - Aura of Vitality Bard - 120~360 (using 3 spell slots)
7 - Life Cleric / Aura of Vitality Bard - 360~680 (using 4 spell slots)
9 - Extend Sorcerer / Aura of Vitality Bard - 560~1680 (using 7 spell slots)
10 - Life Cleric / Extend Sorcerer / Aura of Vitality Bard - 1440~2720 (using 8 spell slots)

Note - Assumes every slot is spent for healing. Well, actually level 7~10 options don't use 1st/2nd level slots for healing
This also doesn't take any attributes into consideration

[Slipperychicken]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were arguing against the Greatberry interpretation on the grounds that it is too powerful/lets the party easily avoid HP attrition. Since Aura of Vitality is indisputably legal and is also better in most ways than Greatberry, that argument seems to fall pretty flat.

It's true that Greatberry has some advantages relative to Aura of Vitality which partially offset its negatives--mostly the "pre-casting" aspect--but overall I just don't buy the argument that Greatberry is anywhere close to as good. Yes, you can spend "unused" slots, but since it takes you 3x to 4x as many slots to heal, even if you saved all of your slots yesterday and (dangerously) blew them on Goodberry before going to sleep, Aura of Vitality would still provide about 2x as much healing today as you get out of yesterday's + today's slots. Aura of Vitality also scales better once you take Warlock 5, at which point I get about as much healing out of two short rests as you do out of a whole 24-hour period. (Approximately 1000 HP of healing.)

There are advantages that Goodberry has relative to Aura of Vitality, and vice versa. I'm not saying the former supersedes the latter; All else equal, a combination of the two is best. Also, "Greatberry" is acceptable as per Sage Advice (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-august-2015), as the word of the developers is typically enough to resolve this sort of dispute.


For someone with both spells and life domain, unlikely as that is, the best thing is to cast Goodberry however many times is safe (player's discretion) before each long rest, then use them for out-of-combat healing afterwards. After the goodberries are used (or 16 hours after the long rest elapse; whichever happens first), for additional out-of-combat healing the PC should use first and second slots for Goodberry, and third and higher slots for Aura of Vitality, as appropriate. I neglected to mention earlier that goodberry can also be used like a potion; if the caster and the party's other healers are reduced to 0hp, any remaining allies can feed them berries to bring them back, whereas a caster relying on Aura of Vitality has a harder time achieving that functionality.


Of course, once you've put in 3 sorcerer levels (metamagic), 5 warlock levels (recover two 3rd level slots on short rest), and 9 paladin levels (or 6 levels of Lore Bard, to get Aura of Vitality as a known spell), you're really arguing for the superiority of a 9-17 level build over a feat and a class level.

[MaxWilson]

Cleric adds another 5 per heal, increasing it by another 50 per minute / 100 total

Paladin doesn't get Aura of Vitality until 9, so it's 6 Bard and Metamagic comes in at 3 Sorcerer
making it 9th level minimal to get Extended Vitality

Let's see if I can just type up some break points to clarify
1 - Life Cleric
2 - Life Cleric / Druid
6 - Aura of Vitality Bard
7 - Life Cleric / Aura of Vitality Bard
9 - Extend Sorcerer / Aura of Vitality Bard
10 - Life Cleric / Extend Sorcerer / Aura of Vitality Bard
15 - Short Rest Warlock slots / Life Cleric / Extend Sorcerer / Aura of Vitality Bard

I'd actually recommend

1 - Sorcerer 1 for Con save proficiency
2 - Life Cleric 1 for Heavy Armor
3-8 - Lore Bard 1-6 for Aura of Vitality
9-10 Sorcerer 2-3 for metamagic/Web/Blur
11-12 Warlock for Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast/Devil's Sight (to taste)
13-20 to taste, but I like the idea of winding up at Lore Bard 11 eventually for Mass Suggestion and additional Magical Secrets + Expertise.

A few other notes on the build:

1.) Warlock 5 is really overkill, since who really needs 480 HP in healing per short rest?
2.) But I do recommend Warlock 2 so you have something useful to do during combat besides use your bonus action on heals. (Agonizing Eldritch Blast)
3.) Heavy armor proficiency + Shield spell + Greenflame/Booming Blade also makes you surprisingly good in melee when required. Instead of boosting Str, just take Mobile to offset the movement penalty, or don't take Mobile and cast Longstrider--depends on how mobile your playstyle is.
4.) You have Bardic Inspiration/Font of Inspiration/Cutting Words to help your party out even more. And Song of Healing, but who cares about that?
5.) As long as you get Greater Restoration and Raise Dead, you've got the party healer role completely sewn up. Clerics at level 6+ don't really get any worthwhile healing spells anyway.
6.) For your second metamagic, I recommend Careful so you can do Careful Web and Careful Hypnotic Pattern. Web is especially good at high level because high-level monsters tend to have their weakest saves in Dex and Int. Having Careful allows you to create areas unfriendly to elee enemies but advantageous to the party, without having to blow spell slots on Freedom of Movement.
7.) You still get 8th level spell slots, but no 7th or 8th level spells. Use those high-level slots on Planar Binding or Mass Suggestion.
8.) For your other magical secrets, I recommend a good combat spell like Conjure Animals, a good protection spell like Death Ward or Circle of Power (depending), and a good utility spell like Conjure Woodland Creatures (which you can use to get e.g. Dryads for Pass Without Trace).


Max, is your current argument that there is an even more exploitative build, so less efficient exploitative builds are okay?

Not exactly. My argument is that Greatberry cannot be invalidated on game balance grounds because it's not even an outlier. (Pretty much any Lore Bard will give you all the healing your party will ever need, even without Life Cleric/Sorcerer shenanigans.) That doesn't mean you can't invalidate it on some other grounds, as in fact I do, for not meeting the requirements outlined in the PHB.

[Talamare]

10 - Life Cleric / Extend Sorcerer / Aura of Vitality Bard - 1440~2720 (using 8 spell slots)

Compared to a Level 10 pure Life Cleric
2x Mass Cure Wounds
9x Prayer of Healing (let's not completely ignore that this is locked to out of combat only)
4x Cure Wounds

Mass Cure Wounds = (3d8+7 * Targets) * 3
Prayer of Healing = (2d8+4 + 3d8+5 + 4d8+6) * Targets ) * 3
Cure Wounds = 1d8+3 * 4

36d8+66*Targets + 4d8+12 + (Spellcasting Mod*12*Targets)

So, let's assume a standard party of 5 people and a Wis20 Cleric (He is level 10 after all)


1140+50+300 = 1490, and remember that 1080 of it is Out of Combat healing from a 10 min cast time spell. As well as AoE healing. An individual member can only receive 338 HP.
810~2070 + 36~64 = 846~2134

10 - Life Cleric / Extend Sorcerer / Aura of Vitality Bard - 1440~2720 (using 8 spell slots)
Oh, and I notice a math error in this. Higher level casts of Aura of Vitality would heal for more than what I applied, I believe the actual value is 1580~2860
and all that HP can go to a single member, or divided by exactly how much you need on each person.
This again doesn't use Any Lv1 or 2 slots, but then again the pure Cleric only got like ~50 healing out of his slots anyways

Let's also do a Pure Bard, just to check
8 casts of Aura of Vitality basically
20d6 * 8
160~960
Damn that's pretty low, Let's burn his other slots to get him over the 1000 threshold
(1d8+5 * 4) + (2d8+5 * 3) = 24~52 + 21~63 = 45~115
205~1075

Summary / TL:DR

Pure Cleric = 846~2134
Pure Bard = 205~1075
MC Healer = 1580~2860

[EscherEnigma]

I'd certainly allow that. All the non-6 necromancer features are crap and very few do any killing with necromancy spells because they're not good at offense, I'd happily let grim harvest work with the undead they raised.
I was gonna say that sounds like a cool idea too. I have no idea about the balance ATM, but conceptually? Kinda rocks.

[Talamare]

Compared to a Level 10 pure Life Cleric
2x Mass Cure Wounds
9x Prayer of Healing (let's not completely ignore that this is locked to out of combat only)
4x Cure Wounds

Mass Cure Wounds = (3d8+7 * Targets) * 3
Prayer of Healing = (2d8+4 + 3d8+5 + 4d8+6) * Targets ) * 3
Cure Wounds = 1d8+3 * 4

36d8+66*Targets + 4d8+12 + (Spellcasting Mod*12*Targets)

So, let's assume a standard party of 5 people and a Wis20 Cleric (He is level 10 after all)


1140+50+300 = 1490, and remember that 1080 of it is Out of Combat healing from a 10 min cast time spell. As well as AoE healing. An individual member can only receive 338 HP.
810~2070 + 36~64 = 846~2134

Pure Cleric = 846~2134

Yea, but as you said... That's mostly out of combat healing!
Do an only in combat healing!

So, Lv1&2 for Cure Wounds
Lv3&4 for Mass Healing Word
Lv5 for Mass Cure Wounds
Assuming 5 targets again

Cure Wounds
1d8+5+3 *4 = 36~64
2d8+5+4 *3 = 33~75
=69~139

Mass Healing Word
1d4+5+5 *3*5 = 165~210 (33~42)
2d4+5+6 *3*5 = 195~285 (39~57)
=360~495 (72~102)

Mass Cure Wounds
3d8+5+7 *2*5 = 150~360 (30~72)
=150~360 (30~72)

Pure Cleric, Battle Only =579~994 (171~313 Single Target) / AVG=786.5 (242)
Pure Bard = 205~1075 / AVG=640

Pure Cleric was just shy of 1k, but the average is significantly higher. Again tho, Bard will have better single target while the Cleric is reliant on AoE
Also, the Cleric has tools to use out of combat that will increase this total. The Bard is stuck with only really 1 spell.
The Bard's option is also concentration and has great risk of ending early, not getting it's full effect.

but in summary, Pure Clerics and Pure Bards heal for fairly close amounts.

[MaxWilson]

Aura of Vitality is in-combat healing as well as out-of-combat healing. You can start it during the fight for the 2d6+5 HP per turn (twice as good as Heroism spell, and it stacks) and then just continue it after combat until you fill everyone back up. It's sometimes better than using two different spells, e.g. one Aura of Vitality is better than one Hypotic Pattern during combat to reduce damage and then a Cure Wounds afterwards to heal damage.

Depends on the scenario of course. Sometimes you really, really need a Hypnotic Pattern now.

[Talamare]

Aura of Vitality is in-combat healing as well as out-of-combat healing. You can start it during the fight for the 2d6+5 HP per turn (twice as good as Heroism spell, and it stacks) and then just continue it after combat until you fill everyone back up. It's sometimes better than using two different spells, e.g. one Aura of Vitality is better than one Hypotic Pattern during combat to reduce damage and then a Cure Wounds afterwards to heal damage.

Depends on the scenario of course. Sometimes you really, really need a Hypnotic Pattern now.
My point was that Cleric has specific out of combat options that are more effective than his in-combat options.
Meaning his baseline is the same as yours, while he can go higher by utilizing his out of combat options.

Aura of Vitality is actually only 2d6, no spell casting modifier. Unless you meant the +5 was from a level of Cleric, but then you wouldn't really be a pure Bard.

[MaxWilson]

My point was that Cleric has specific out of combat options that are more effective than his in-combat options.
Meaning his baseline is the same as yours, while he can go higher by utilizing his out of combat options.

Aura of Vitality is actually only 2d6, no spell casting modifier. Unless you meant the +5 was from a level of Cleric, but then you wouldn't really be a pure Bard.

I didn't realize you were talking about pure bards--thought you were referring to the above-mentioned hybrid--but 2d6 is sufficient for pop-up healing at least. Though I'm not by any means suggesting that you should always use your concentration on AoV. It's just something to keep in mind if you have it anyway.

I'm skeptical about using Prayer of Healing as a baseline for healing. Only under very specific circumstances will you actually have large amounts of damage spread out over a whole party, and if so you're risking TPK. 200 HP of healing from Aura of Vitality and 200 HP of healing from Prayer of Healing are not even close to equivalently-useful. 200 HP from Goodberry would be more useful, about on par with Aura of Vitality, but would cost more to generate than AoV.

[Talamare]

I didn't realize you were talking about pure bards--thought you were referring to the above-mentioned hybrid--but 2d6 is sufficient for pop-up healing at least. Though I'm not by any means suggesting that you should always use your concentration on AoV. It's just something to keep in mind if you have it anyway.

You mean the 1/3/6? No yea, having someone with that build is like having literally 3 Healers on your team...
Literally... 3 Healers
If we take 3 Pure Cleric, all 3 dedicated to JUST healing we get a total healing of 1737~2982... and it's mostly AoE! and it assumes 5 party members!!!
That MC Healer does 1649~2999

Yea...........

[MaxWilson]

You mean the 1/3/6? No yea, having someone with that build is like having literally 3 Healers on your team...
Literally... 3 Healers
If we take 3 Pure Cleric, all 3 dedicated to JUST healing we get a total healing of 1737~2982... and it's mostly AoE! and it assumes 5 party members!!!
That MC Healer does 1649~2999

Yea...........

Huh? In what sense? Having three pure clerics on your team would mean giving up almost all versatility and DPR output. Having one superhealer with Eldritch Blast is like having three clerics' worth of healing PLUS an archer.

Oh, I forgot to mention: one other thing I like about that build is that it lets the Sorbardlockleric cast Bless on the party Sharpshooter + tank without having to spend a Magical Secret on it. The most painful thing he's giving up relative to a pure Bardlock is eventual Wish access, but if you think of the Sorbardlockleric as basically a gish/healer instead of a full caster then it doesn't feel quite so painful.

[hymer]

Greatberry

Never heard that one before. :smallsmile: Is that Goodberry upgraded via Disciple of Life?

[Citan]

Wow. You're seriously okay with a Necromancer regaining 21 HP every time his Finger of Death zombie kills a mook? Well, I guess I know how I'd build a tank at your table: Fighter 1, Necromancer X. :) Bring along a sackful of 2cp chickens for free healing between combats, and also for eating.
If you go this way, then you wouldn't like the Way of the Long Death Monk either. :)
Attack an enemy with Attack action, then bonus action kill a chicken (creature) to get THP equal to (IIRC) WIS+Monk level. XD

[Talamare]

Hungry for Greatberries? 1 Cleric, 1 Druid, 2 Warlock (or more)
Goodberries last 24 hrs, and Warlocks recharge their spells every Short Rest
Well, who says you even NEED to take long rests?

While your group Long Rests for 8 hours, you instead take 8 Short Rests, Recharging your Spellslots 8x and cast Goodberries 16x with Pact Magic
Each Berry healing for 4 HP, provides 640 Healing at level 4 base
This increases by another 80 every time your party short rests during the day, so probably another 160 for 800 total

If your DM argues you NEED to sleep, you can either take Exhaustion and get for someone to cast Greater Restoration on you...
or You could be an Elf, who only sleeps for 4 hours instead of 8. Cuts your healing down to 320, but you get your other spell slots back.

[rollingForInit]

If your DM argues you NEED to sleep, you can either take Exhaustion and get for someone to cast Greater Restoration on you...
or You could be an Elf, who only sleeps for 4 hours instead of 8. Cuts your healing down to 320, but you get your other spell slots back.

If I were a DM, I would only allow Greater Restoration for skipping out on sleep to work so far. A bit like taking drugs to stay away. Perhaps it works at first ... but the Con saves I'd require for not getting exhausted after skipping sleep would get tougher, and the amount of exhaustion received would increase. So after a week you might just get hit by an instant exhaustion 5, as your body catches up ...

And you'd also miss out on any spell slots you get back from classes other than the Warlock.

[Flashy]

If I were a DM, I would only allow Greater Restoration for skipping out on sleep to work so far. A bit like taking drugs to stay away. Perhaps it works at first ... but the Con saves I'd require for not getting exhausted after skipping sleep would get tougher, and the amount of exhaustion received would increase. So after a week you might just get hit by an instant exhaustion 5, as your body catches up...

Eh, if players want to pay 100 gp in material components in order to skip a long rest I'm not really bothered. It's not like how long a player character sleeps for is much of a balance factor, and if someone's done the (hideously unfavorable) Cleric or Druid 9/Warlock 9 build required for true sleeplessness I don't really care.

[Lines]

Eh, if players want to pay 100 gp in material components in order to skip a long rest I'm not really bothered. It's not like how long a player character sleeps for is much of a balance factor, and if someone's done the (hideously unfavorable) Cleric or Druid 9/Warlock 9 build required for true sleeplessness I don't really care.

There's a much simpler way to build sleeplessly. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409694-The-Coffee-Drow-A-Sleepless-Sorclock) I mean it doesn't actually help you not get fatigued, but you can power nap.

[Theodoxus]

If I were a DM, I would only allow Greater Restoration for skipping out on sleep to work so far. A bit like taking drugs to stay away. Perhaps it works at first ... but the Con saves I'd require for not getting exhausted after skipping sleep would get tougher, and the amount of exhaustion received would increase. So after a week you might just get hit by an instant exhaustion 5, as your body catches up ...

And you'd also miss out on any spell slots you get back from classes other than the Warlock.

Wow, that's really harsh. If Lesser Restoration cured a level of Exhaustion, and Greater wiped it all away, I could see an argument for using Lesser in the manner you describe... but a 5th level spell, with a consumed material component and you want to make up some wonky rule about magic being akin to drugs? It's magic, not mundane.. it's not a super caffeinated latte...

[Cybren]

Wow, that's really harsh. If Lesser Restoration cured a level of Exhaustion, and Greater wiped it all away, I could see an argument for using Lesser in the manner you describe... but a 5th level spell, with a consumed material component and you want to make up some wonky rule about magic being akin to drugs? It's magic, not mundane.. it's not a super caffeinated latte...

The game should respect the fiction. characters shouldn't be collections of stats and abilities with no context. Greater restoration says it reduces exhaustion, but it doesn't say it counts as a night of sleep. That sleep may cause exhaustion doesn't change that you need to sleep. (Long rests technically don't even say they _require_ sleep, it's just an example of what one might entail)

[Lines]

The game should respect the fiction. characters shouldn't be collections of stats and abilities with no context. Greater restoration says it reduces exhaustion, but it doesn't say it counts as a night of sleep. That sleep may cause exhaustion doesn't change that you need to sleep. (Long rests technically don't even say they _require_ sleep, it's just an example of what one might entail)

Eh, it's fine - legitimately, just be an elf and take power naps. You need four hours of trancing to be equivalent to sleep, just do what the java drow does and catch an hour here or there when you get the chance.

[MaxWilson]

If you go this way, then you wouldn't like the Way of the Long Death Monk either. :)
Attack an enemy with Attack action, then bonus action kill a chicken (creature) to get THP equal to (IIRC) WIS+Monk level. XD

(1) That costs a bonus action during combat. Ergo it can only happen on your turn and it costs you damage.
(2) It's only temp HP.

In contrast, under the abominable Grim Harvest interpretation, the Necromancer in plate armor can have, at no action cost, zombies killing chickens on the sidelines while he fights, and all the HP he he regains from that stacks. He can regain 100 HP per round, easily. Even if he hits zero HP, the next zombie to kill a chicken (or a peasant) will bump him up to 21 HP, or 27 if it was created with Finger of Death IX. The zombies do not even have to be in the same room with him. He could have a Wight in another city who is scrying on him and who orders the zombies, when appropriate, to start the sacrifices. While this is quite an interesting idea for a BBEG, you have to admit that it's a bit much for a 2nd level ability which comes fully online by level 5 when Animate Dead arrives. Do you really want your 5th level Necromancers to be nigh-unkillable at no action cost?

Monk of Long Death is nice but doesn't even come close.

================================


There's a much simpler way to build sleeplessly. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409694-The-Coffee-Drow-A-Sleepless-Sorclock) I mean it doesn't actually help you not get fatigued, but you can power nap.

Java Do'Urden is hilarious, but I want to note two things in addition:

(1) Sorlocks are very popular, and actually any Sorlock can pull the same trick as Java, including the aforementioned Sorbardlockleric up-thread, which has neither of the weaknesses mentioned for Java Do'Urden (healing and sunlight weakness).

(2) Even a normal human can subsist without long rests indefinitely. The average human adult needs 7 hours of sleep per day, or by D&D rules 6 hours of sleep per day. That's not enough for a long rest unless you also take 2 hours of light activity like guard duty on top of it. For a Sorlock, instead of light activity you go jogging. Bam! No exhaustion, but no long rest.

Now the Sorbardlockleric beats the Greatberry cleric at their own game (storing up power in advance from "the day before", only now it is "the lifetime before"). Every time the party stops for some downtime, she converts sorcery points into 2nd level sorcerer slots, which will be used for Bless II/Cure Wounds II/Aid/Web. If you really want to play Java, you'd now go for Sorcerer 5/Warlock 3 instead of Warlock 5/Sorcerer 3, so you could store up infinite amounts of Aura of Vitality.

In practice of course, this is totally unnecessary, overkill piled on top of overkill.

[coredump]

Cleric1/Bard6 can pull off a pretty good AoV even without the sorc levels. Not as good, but let's you keep progressing in Bard instead of MCing

[MaxWilson]

Cleric1/Bard6 can pull off a pretty good AoV even without the sorc levels. Not as good, but let's you keep progressing in Bard instead of MCing

Yes, and ditto for Paladin 9/Sorc X, which is a pretty common build anyway. I hate playing clerics, so 140 HP per cast seems plenty good to me and doesn't require a cleric dip. I'm enough of a powergamer that I might hold my nose and dip Cleric 1 if it was absolutely required, but so far the Sorbardlockleric has been a theorycraft/NPC-building exercise for me and not something I've actually played at a table. (Besides, I mostly DM, unfortunately.)

[Citan]

(1) That costs a bonus action during combat. Ergo it can only happen on your turn and it costs you damage.
(2) It's only temp HP.

In contrast, under the abominable Grim Harvest interpretation, the Necromancer in plate armor can have, at no action cost, zombies killing chickens on the sidelines while he fights, and all the HP he he regains from that stacks.

Do you really want your 5th level Necromancers to be nigh-unkillable at no action cost?

Monk of Long Death is nice but doesn't even come close.

================================


Woah, calm down mate.
I never said I actually agreed on the interpretation allowing such a cheese from Necro.
I just wanted to point that an official class had an official way with your idea to get a very high survivability bump.

And, "it's only temp HP", well, sure, but 20-25 THP every round you need it for the only cost of a bonus action seems pretty strong to me. :)

[MaxWilson]

Woah, calm down mate.
I never said I actually agreed on the interpretation allowing such a cheese from Necro.
I just wanted to point that an official class had an official way with your idea to get a very high survivability bump.

And, "it's only temp HP", well, sure, but 20-25 THP every round you need it for the only cost of a bonus action seems pretty strong to me. :)

I took exception to the suggestion that I'm logically required to hate the Monk of Long Death, when I actually think they're just fine.

I do like your idea of a monk who carries around chickens to kill during combat. "Time for a boost, my pretty! [wrings neck]"

[Theodoxus]

In practice of course, this is totally unnecessary, overkill piled on top of overkill.

Very true. It's why I'm perfectly happy with Life Cleric, Magical Talent, 1/LR casting of Goodberry for 40 points of healing. If you need more than that... you should probably rebalance your party. Getting thousands of hit points from AoV? What are you playing, a party of hill dwarf barbarians with 20 Con and max HP per level?!?

Or, your DM is a fanatic for recreating World of Warcraft boss battles, and you're dealing with that Green Dragon healing scenario from the Lich Kings castle... (Sorry, been ages since I played WoW or did that raid... forget the names.)

[Citan]

I took exception to the suggestion that I'm logically required to hate the Monk of Long Death, when I actually think they're just fine.

I do like your idea of a monk who carries around chickens to kill during combat. "Time for a boost, my pretty! [wrings neck]"

Well, it's actually your idea in the first place to be honest. :)

Actually, I had been thinking about cheesy tactics like this, but didn't think even one second that ANY creature whatever the size would fit.
I mean, if we push the logic to the umost and admit it(s RAW, you could just travel with a small pocket of ants. ^^

I was thinking of something more along the lines of familiar (unlucky one to have such a master XD) or conjuration spells.

Would be overly sadistic though. I'm imagining a Druid / Monk multiclass that conjures a pack of bears, ask them to attack enemies and, when one is on the verge of dying, finishes it off instead of healing...
...
...
I think I have a concept of fun Chaotic Evil NPC here. XD

Also, following your ideas of chicken, I'm thinking about a Monk/Ranger that would also use chickens as arrows as in Hot Shots 2 :)

[greenstone]

A question related to goodberry: How many berries can a character eat a round, and what sort of action does it require?

I thought the answer is 1 and Use a Magic Item, which really limits any greatberry shenanigans, but the posts here make me wonder if I'm wrong.

[Talamare]

A question related to goodberry: How many berries can a character eat a round, and what sort of action does it require?

I thought the answer is 1 and Use a Magic Item, which really limits any greatberry shenanigans, but the posts here make me wonder if I'm wrong.

1 Action, Eats exactly 1 Berry