When Belkar dies, will we see his afterlife [Archive]

Lord

2016-02-19, 05:52 PM

Now, barring either a shocking swerve in the plot, or a serious case of screw destiny, it is pretty much confirmed that the Belkster is going to die at some point in the near future of OOTS. Given that this is a major plot event, I figured I'd create a thread about whether or not we will see an afterlife review process.

Granted hell doesn't seem the same kind of place as Heaven, so its possible the people who go there just get shunted in without regard to circumstances. However it is possible that Belkar may have gained enough good points to warrant at least being considered to be Chaotic Neutral.

What do you think? If we do see an afterlife review, what do you think it will be like? What will the result be?

Would another afterlife review even fit the story? Sure it might bookend with Roys story pretty well, but would it actually achieve anything within the context of the narrative?

I suppose it boils down to whether or not you think Belkar can earn his way to Chaotic Neutral before he dies. Personally I'm hoping he will, since what would the point of his character development be if the end result is exactly the same.

Quartz

2016-02-19, 06:22 PM

What do you think? If we do see an afterlife review, what do you think it will be like? What will the result be?

We've already seen it, with Belkar hanging out with Shojo and Mr Scruffy.

dmc91356

2016-02-19, 06:52 PM

Not sure that's correct. We saw what Belkar thought would be his afterlife . . . not necessarily what will happen.

Mandor

2016-02-19, 07:03 PM

Now, barring either a shocking swerve in the plot, or a serious case of screw destiny, it is pretty much confirmed that the Belkster is going to die at some point in the near future of OOTS.
....

I wouldn't say "Near Future". We strongly suspect that it will happen before the in-comic year ends. Now, how many strips will there be before that happens? I mean consider how many strips we had just for the single DAY in which Azure City was beseiged. We in the real world could be waiting several months before Belkar's appointment arrives.

IF... in fact... that day arrives. Now, yes, the Oracle said it would. I still don't see what actually prevents the Oracle from outright lying if he so chooses. Do I think it's likely that the Oracle flat-out lied? No. But I'm not taking it as an article of religious faith that that is Beyond All Possibility. Plus, in many stories, when you are dealing with a creature of Primal Chaos like the Snarl, visions of the future are only just so accurate. In some mythologies, perhaps including Stickverse, perhaps not, Fate itself can be changed when raw Chaos gets involved. We don't know for absolute certainty that that won't happen here.

Personally, I like many others am betting that Belkar's death will come very close to the end of the story, and he will either be turned to stone like Kraagor, or otherwise die in a last-holding-of-the-line to contain the Snarl. Depending how much much time Rich chooses to spend on Epilogue ("Scouring of the Shire" style) there might not be much time to see what does or does not become of him in the afterlife. If, that is, he GETS an afterlife. If the Snarl can uncreate souls, Belkar might not get one, depending on what kills him.

hroþila

2016-02-19, 07:36 PM

We've already seen it, with Belkar hanging out with Shojo and Mr Scruffy.

Not sure that's correct. We saw what Belkar thought would be his afterlife . . . not necessarily what will happen.
That wasn't supposed to be the afterlife, though (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285286-Belkar-thinks-he-s-Chaotic-Good&p=15306490#post15306490).

IamWeasel

2016-02-19, 07:39 PM

I don't want Belkar to die. I am going to hope that this premonition gets changed by some butterfly effect.

I would be cool with seeing Belkar kicking demon tail and taking names in any number of the layers of the abyss, though I prefer he got there via plane shift rather than dying.

Pyrous

2016-02-19, 07:44 PM

Not sure that's correct. We saw what Belkar thought would be his afterlife . . . not necessarily what will happen.

That's not what we saw. Belkar didn't die in his illusion, what happened there was what Mr. Scruffy wanted to happened: his former slave resurrected and his current one, who is a gourmet chef, cooking for them.

Wildroses

2016-02-20, 12:29 AM

I've been wondering for a while why Belkar will die and stay dead, seeing as this is a world in which souls can be resurrected if they are willing. And I believe it is either going to be one of two reasons:

1) As has been mentioned, Belkar's soul will be unmade by the Snarl, mirroring Kraagor's fate. No soul, no resurrection, no afterlife.

2) Alternatively, Belkar might decide he would rather stay dead than return to life because of Mr Scruffy. He does love his cat, and while his cat loves him, their shared illusion proves he does still miss his old master. I'm pretty sure Shojo was only there because Mr Scruffy wanted him there, not Belkar. If they both die together (and they have a history of rushing to each others defence in combat situations) I can see Belkar going: "Oh, you want to stay here with the wacky old guy? I guess I'm staying here too then." So we would see Belkar and Mr Scruffy in the afterlife Shojo went to.

I do hope Belkar and Mr Scruffy do die together, to be honest. I don't want that cat to lose another beloved owner in less than a year.

ChristianSt

2016-02-20, 07:37 PM

IF... in fact... that day arrives. Now, yes, the Oracle said it would. I still don't see what actually prevents the Oracle from outright lying if he so chooses.

In 572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) he went as far as actually doing an "official" prophecy. So flat out lying is certainly off the table (unless yo mean flat out lying + extremely twisted prophecy).

Ron Miel

2016-02-20, 07:54 PM

I've been wondering for a while why Belkar will die and stay dead, seeing as this is a world in which souls can be resurrected if they are willing.

It also requires:
1) Someone willing to have them raised
2) a cleric of sufficiently high level who can cast the spell
3) a quantity of diamond dust

If any one of those is missing, no raise dead will happen. When Roy died, they had 1) and 3), but had great trouble locating 2)

When Belkar dies, they may well have 2) and 3) but will the Order even want to raise him?

Zmeoaice

2016-02-20, 11:18 PM

That wasn't supposed to be the afterlife, though (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285286-Belkar-thinks-he-s-Chaotic-Good&p=15306490#post15306490).

Yay my thread has relevance.

I suppose it boils down to whether or not you think Belkar can earn his way to Chaotic Neutral before he dies. Personally I'm hoping he will, since what would the point of his character development be if the end result is exactly the same.

No, Belkar is a sadistic monster and hasn't really stopped. He is going to burn in hell forever if he doesn't get unmade. He's less evil than he used to be, but he's still at like what 2 Kilonazis?

He might be getting less chaotic due to playing by the rules, but he's still evil, as we can see with the ring burning him.

Peelee

2016-02-20, 11:27 PM

IF... in fact... that day arrives. Now, yes, the Oracle said it would. I still don't see what actually prevents the Oracle from outright lying if he so chooses.

Why?

I mean, if the memory charm erases all memories, why would he say a pointless lie that won't be remembered? Imean, sure, Roy was able to remember it thanks to a fluke, but it's not like he's told the little dude. If the Oracle wanted to lie for the sake of torturing Belkar, he sure sucks at it.

keybounce

2016-02-21, 12:05 AM

I think the Chaotic Neutral afterlife is run by cats.

Run by cats? Sure. Definitely fits Chaotic. Not for the good of people, or the selfish "I'll rule it all" evil, but the neutral "Hey, feed me, pet me, I'm good" view of cats.

Now, what will happen when Belkar dies? Will he go to the after life? Will he be returned back here? Will he become undead? Belkar on his worst day would be ... either a god-level massive killer, or a cat worshiper. So the post-death spirit that fills the hole should be identical to the current Belkar in one form or another.

Of course, the other possibility: He dies in the final battle at the gate.

RatElemental

2016-02-21, 01:30 AM

Why?

I mean, if the memory charm erases all memories, why would he say a pointless lie that won't be remembered? Imean, sure, Roy was able to remember it thanks to a fluke, but it's not like he's told the little dude. If the Oracle wanted to lie for the sake of torturing Belkar, he sure sucks at it.

Roy would have remembered it anyway, the oracle officially put it on the record (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html). Unless the oracle can fake a trance, or lie during one, or fate can be screwed, Belkar is on his way to... wherever it is he'll end up.

Though I guess the oracle faking a trance and then intentionally booting Roy past the memory charm to screw with him as payback for the window incident could be the case.

Assuming Belkar's not ending up in some flavor of afterlife or another, the last breath thing being a loophole is probably a bit more likely, what with all the ways a person can be "alive" without doing a whole lot of breathing.

Peelee

2016-02-21, 07:53 AM

Roy would have remembered it anyway, the oracle officially put it on the record (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html). Unless the oracle can fake a trance, or lie during one, or fate can be screwed, Belkar is on his way to... wherever it is he'll end up.

Though I guess the oracle faking a trance and then intentionally booting Roy past the memory charm to screw with him as payback for the window incident could be the case.

Assuming Belkar's not ending up in some flavor of afterlife or another, the last breath thing being a loophole is probably a bit more likely, what with all the ways a person can be "alive" without doing a whole lot of breathing.

Point taken, but that doesn't answer why the Oracle would lie. All his other comments have been off the record and forgotten, and there's bitsy no reason to do that. Logically, all comments should be considered valid prophecies, which leaves a lot less room for loopholes.

Killer Angel

2016-02-21, 08:04 AM

No, Belkar is a sadistic monster and hasn't really stopped. He is going to burn in hell forever if he doesn't get unmade. He's less evil than he used to be, but he's still at like what 2 Kilonazis?

But... but... he's trying! :smalltongue:

NerdyKris

2016-02-21, 09:04 AM

If you start assuming that the Oracle was outright lying, then there is no point to have ever believed the prophecies or to have put them in the strip in the first place. It makes little sense, and in in-universe terms, that would completely destroy his business model if it ever got out that he lied about a prophecy. Unless there is some proof that he was lying, the idea would be like saying "maybe Xykon is actually working to protect the gates!".

Ron Miel

2016-02-21, 11:08 AM

Nimrod's Son

2016-02-21, 09:49 PM

Rich said in one of his book commentaries that he included Elan's prophecy specifically as a cast-iron guarantee that the story will have a happy ending. Having any of the Oracle's prophecies not come true would invalidate that guarantee, and would be terrible writing. The Oracle doesn't lie.

The story is about the whole Order, though, so I very much doubt Belkar will be leaving the story altogether unless he dies very close to the end. He's only got a few weeks till the year is up, but there's no reason that the comic has to last much longer than that. Belkar could still be alive years from now in real time.

If he dies sooner, I'd lay money on seeing him in the afterlife. I'm not really one for speculation, but the most logical way that this would tie into the main story is if he interacts in some way with the IFCC on one of their home planes.

veti

2016-02-22, 02:21 AM

Indeed, Rich has actually said in so many words - in the commentary for 'No Cure for the Paladin Blues', I think it was - that the story was about the whole Order, Belkar was a part of that, and if he died, we would see him in the afterlife continuing the story.

Granted, that was a long time ago. But I don't see why it should have changed.

Roy has already spent an entire book dead, and it didn't stop him participating.

grandpheonix

2016-02-22, 10:46 AM

Personally, I like many others am betting that Belkar's death will come very close to the end of the story, and he will either be turned to stone like Kraagor, or otherwise die in a last-holding-of-the-line to contain the Snarl. Depending how much much time Rich chooses to spend on Epilogue ("Scouring of the Shire" style) there might not be much time to see what does or does not become of him in the afterlife. If, that is, he GETS an afterlife. If the Snarl can uncreate souls, Belkar might not get one, depending on what kills him.

K-man didnt turn to stone. That was a legit statue.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

Peelee

2016-02-22, 11:10 AM

Havelocke

2016-02-22, 01:33 PM

what are the odds that Belkar becomes a Revenant like in the more recent editions? neither living nor dead. It's a playable character race...thoughts?

Hamste

2016-02-22, 04:15 PM

Why?

I mean, if the memory charm erases all memories, why would he say a pointless lie that won't be remembered? Imean, sure, Roy was able to remember it thanks to a fluke, but it's not like he's told the little dude. If the Oracle wanted to lie for the sake of torturing Belkar, he sure sucks at it.

I'm still in the camp that it wasn't a fluke. The oracle spent the time to make sure he got a wand of banishment to banish Roy (or just always carries one around) and knew Roy was there. Either he cares enough to check Roy's future every so often or banishing was or would be needed at some point and if that happens it is likely he knows the effect of it. I think it is more likely that he completely realizes that Roy remembers the conversation and that he used that information to manipulate the conversation to what ever end was needed. It is either that or he for what ever reason didn't bother to spend the presumably minute amount of time it would have taken to watch Roy yell "I remember everything".

That being said, I don't think he lied about Belkar dying.

Peelee

2016-02-22, 04:25 PM

what are the odds that Belkar becomes a Revenant like in the more recent editions? neither living nor dead. It's a playable character race...thoughts?

Low. Lot of different predictions that heavily imply the Bellar will be permanently removed from the Material Plane.

Vinyadan

2016-02-22, 04:27 PM

After reading the book, I have the feeling that the Giant is trying to desensitize us from Belkar's death. He died in the illusion, he died against the 4th edition guys, he died in the 4th edition version... He also is the only member of the Order whose body has been dismembered (decapitation). We have seen 3 dead Belkar, against 1 Roy and 1 Durkon.

NerdyKris

2016-02-22, 04:27 PM

I'm still in the camp that it wasn't a fluke. The oracle spent the time to make sure he got a wand of banishment to banish Roy (or just always carries one around) and knew Roy was there. Either he cares enough to check Roy's future every so often or banishing was or would be needed at some point and if that happens it is likely he knows the effect of it. I think it is more likely that he completely realizes that Roy remembers the conversation and that he used that information to manipulate the conversation to what ever end was needed. It is either that or he for what ever reason didn't bother to spend the presumably minute amount of time it would have taken to watch Roy yell "I remember everything".

That being said, I don't think he lied about Belkar dying.

He made an official prophecy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html), Roy would have remembered it just like the other prophecies regardless of how he left the tower. The purpose of bypassing the charm was so he would know what Belkar did to activate the Mark of Justice.

KorvinStarmast

2016-02-22, 09:32 PM

That being said, I don't think he lied about Belkar dying.

Every man dies. Does every man truly live?
(A line from the movie Braveheart)

Peelee

2016-02-22, 10:21 PM

Every man dies. Does every man truly live?
(A line from the movie Braveheart)

Yes.
Wheee!

Darth Paul

2016-02-24, 01:03 AM

The oracle spent the time to make sure he got a wand of banishment to banish Roy (or just always carries one around) and knew Roy was there. Either he cares enough to check Roy's future every so often or banishing was or would be needed at some point and if that happens it is likely he knows the effect of it.

I think the Oracle doesn't give a rat's bottom about Roy's future, but he does care deeply about his own. He foresees the events of his own life in enough detail to know which customers are coming, when they'll be there, which are going to murder him and why; and he arranges with the clerics to show up afterwards and bring him back. (You'll recall that they make arrangements for the next visit before leaving- the next customer is going to be an angry druid who it's implied will actually eat the Oracle.) On this day, he also foresaw that Roy's ghost would be there witnessing everything and passing snarky comments about his mother. That's why he needed to have the wand ready to hand.

If he had really been checking up on Roy, then he would have known that banishing him would bypass the memory charm, and would have probably watched his words more carefully- since he would also know for a fact that Roy was going to be raised by the end of the book.

NerdyKris

2016-02-24, 07:39 AM

He didn't need to watch his words, he gave Roy an official prophecy. It wouldn't have been affected by the charm. He most likely intended Roy to remember what Belkar did so the Order would know that Belkar did something really bad.

Seto

2016-02-24, 09:04 AM

Maybe just one strip, to bring closure to his character arc. I don't expect another afterlife-based story, though.

Kastor

2016-02-24, 05:23 PM

NerdyKris

2016-02-24, 06:02 PM

I'm not sure what other sources there would be. There were two occasions where the Oracle gave prophecies about Belkar aside from his "who do I get to kill" question. The first was that he shouldn't bother funding his IRA and should savor his next birthday cake during the first trip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) This was not remembered by the Order due to it not being an official prophecy. The second time, which is an official prophecy, was that Belkar wasn't long for this world and would draw his last breath ever before the end of the year. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) Roy remembered it, both because it was official and because he bypassed the memory charm anyways. He's also referenced it a few times since then. The end of the year is only at most a few weeks away, possibly a few days, so he's getting close.

Bulldog Psion

2016-02-24, 06:11 PM

Vinyadan

2016-02-24, 06:25 PM

Maybe he could be given a ring of sustenance, be locked into a chest, be buried with the chest and be left in an undisclosed location on another plane without cake or retirement plans.

I'm not really expecting this to happen, however. I also lack an idea to justify the lack of breathing.

I don't know about his afterlife. I am still wondering if we will see something of Nale, whose girlfriend was a denizen of the lower planes. Belkar's chances are worse. Beside which, the Giant may enjoy leaving uncertainty about the ultimate fate of his characters - it is how it works in real life, after all: people are there and then they are gone who-knows-where. It is more realistic, or, at least, more relatable.

Kastor

2016-02-24, 07:10 PM

The first was that he shouldn't bother funding his IRA and should savor his next birthday cake during the first trip. This was not remembered by the Order due to it not being an official prophecy. The second time, which is an official prophecy, was that Belkar wasn't long for this world and would draw his last breath ever before the end of the year.

okay, good. Given the wording of the prophecy, "draw his last breath- ever" definitely implies death. However, I didnt see anyone point out the possibility of stasis; what if Belkar gets stuck in a position between life and death, unable to act, but not nonexistent, as with a death by Snarl.

I honestly dont think its likely, but it ought to be considered. Though, it would have to be something very strong and difficult to reverse, if at all possible. So we can safely say he wont get hit by an errant stone-to-flesh spell and just never be reversed. However, we're quickly starting to get to the point where epic-level magic is a very real threat, perhaps Xykon freezes him because it amuses him? Or perhaps Belkar manages to cheeze one of the gods bad enough and they wrap him up? While less likely from a logical point of view, one of these solutions might help obey the Law of Funny.

runeghost

2016-02-24, 09:19 PM

I'll say what I've said before: of course we're going to see Belkar after he dies! Xykon, Dorukan, Soon, Lirian, Girard, the Oracle, Shojo, Durkon and Roy have all died and either are playing or have played signficiant parts in the comic post-death.

I'm firmly convinced that we're going to see Belkar, Nale and likely Thog in a part of the plot that takes place in the outer planes, somehow. Probably involving the IFCC.

ChillerInstinct

2016-02-24, 09:41 PM

Maybe just one strip, to bring closure to his character arc. I don't expect another afterlife-based story, though.

:elan: "Wait! We can't end the story yet! We never found out what happened to Belkar! We can't leave that plot thread hanging!"
:roy: "Elan, he's dead. And while he wasn't quite the same evil bugger as when we met him, a little birdie told me once that he was still quite a bit south of Neutral."
:elan: "But... but... we have no closure!"
:durkon: "Och, dunnae worry, lad. Lemme tell ye a bit abou' Tha Abyss. Souls tha end up thar, if th' survive long enoug', can rise up th' ranks. Even become a Demon Lord, so it be said. Now Belkar, he ain't na normal soul, aye? He'll be just fine, I can promise ye that."
:elan: "But... I guess. But, Durkon... can you prepare Speak With Dead tomorrow?"
:durkon: "Fine, fine..."
Black Splash Panel With White "Meanwhile" Text
:belkar: "Run, my pretty little demonic stepping stones, run! I want to run this place by MORNING, do I make myself clear?"

Peelee

2016-02-24, 09:53 PM

Okay, to be clear, is the oracle's prophecy the only definitive claim to Belkar's death? I know it's been mentioned multiple times, but IIRC, they were all echoes of that prophecy. Can someone back me up or correct me on this?

It depends on what you consider an "official prophecy" to be, honestly. Some people claim that the only prophecies that count are those made in the green word balloons. Others (including me) believe that any time the Oracle talks of future events, those are valid prophecies - after all, why would the memory charm be necessary if nothing he happened to say outside of the green-bubbled Oracular Chant came true?

Mandor

2016-02-24, 09:55 PM

In 572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) he went as far as actually doing an "official" prophecy. So flat out lying is certainly off the table (unless yo mean flat out lying + extremely twisted prophecy).

Yes, and we have whose word that that was an official prophecy? The Oracle's word. Who says he can't lie about THAT? Sure there was a light show involved. Dude has a bunch of magic items, I'm sure he's got a few that do illusions / phantasms and you go to an oracle expecting a prophecy, you're not going to be studiously attempting to disbelieve a false reality. Like Haley said in the Azure City war, a gambit that relies on your target automatically accepting the rules presented them? Against a city of paladins? Easy money.

Now *probably* yes, it was a real prophecy. And yes, *probably* Belkar will face his fate in soon enough. But just as a book claiming to be divinely inspired holds no authority unless you already believe that book, it's circular logic to say the oracle CANNOT lie and his prophecys are always true because he said they were. So I'll hold open the (admittedly thin) possibility that it might not happen as predicted.

Peelee

2016-02-24, 10:01 PM

Yes, and we have whose word that that was an official prophecy? The Oracle's word. Who says he can't lie about THAT? Sure there was a light show involved. Dude has a bunch of magic items, I'm sure he's got a few that do illusions / phantasms and you go to an oracle expecting a prophecy, you're not going to be studiously attempting to disbelieve a false reality. Like Haley said in the Azure City war, a gambit that relies on your target automatically accepting the rules presented them? Against a city of paladins? Easy money.

Now *probably* yes, it was a real prophecy. And yes, *probably* Belkar will face his fate in soon enough. But just as a book claiming to be divinely inspired holds no authority unless you already believe that book, it's circular logic to say the oracle CANNOT lie and his prophecys are always true because he said they were. So I'll hold open the (admittedly thin) possibility that it might not happen as predicted.

OK, ya know what? Let's go ahead and assume that the Oracle full-on lied.

Why? Why in the hell would he lie? Belkar doesn't have the knowledge, Roy is not doing anything to actively hasten Belkar's death, and we can already see that the Oracle likes to deal with things pretty damn directly (see: Lickmyorangeballshalfling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html)), so giving information to a party member who will, at worst, not do anything to save Belkar from mortal danger, seems pretty freaking far out there.

Not to mention the out-of-comic reader disappointment - this would be similar to the "it was all a dream" crap.

So why the hell would the Oracle lie about that?

Kastor

2016-02-24, 10:01 PM

Concerning the whole "is the oracle telling the truth or not", the answer is.... Yes.
For no other reason than this is a story, being told by a good storyteller. Having the oracle would not add anything to the story, and would only overcomplicate things.

If this were an actual campaign, that would be one thing, but this is not.

Mandor

2016-02-24, 10:03 PM

Every man dies. Does every man truly live?
(A line from the movie Braveheart)

Xykon or some other Lich should have a quote about "Every man lives. not every man truly dies."

Mandor

2016-02-24, 10:07 PM

OK, ya know what? Let's go ahead and assume that the Oracle full-on lied.
*snip*
Not to mention the out-of-comic reader disappointment - this would be similar to the "it was all a dream" crap.
*snip*
So why the hell would the Oracle lie about that?

Concerning the whole "is the oracle telling the truth or not", the answer is.... Yes.
For no other reason than this is a story, being told by a good storyteller. Having the oracle would not add anything to the story, and would only overcomplicate things.

If this were an actual campaign, that would be one thing, but this is not.

Yea... ultimately I can't disagree with either of those. I suppose I'm being reflexively contrary for the sake of being contrary, and harping what is not 100% logically *required* to be true, even though I would bet an *awful lot* that it is true. I'll crawl back under my pedantic rock now.

ChillerInstinct

2016-02-24, 10:09 PM

I personally think he's going to be Snarled, in which case there will be no afterlife to see.

In fact, I can almost see that being done specifically to avoid showing him burning eternally in the afterlife.

Actually, I'm not convinced. Belkar's the type of twisted individual who might ACTUALLY enjoy a dark, twisted afterlife. Especially one like the Abyss which, from what little I've read about it (ie. a cursory Google search) is one of those "survival of the fittest" type scenarios. Our sexy shoeless god of war would probably take that as a CHALLENGE, not a curse.

Heck, in a weird way, being sent to the Abyss could almost be considered a REWARD for Belkar's character development. I mean, pending a RADICAL change in alignment (while he was at less than ONE kilonazi back when Roy was with the Deva, probably close to half and yes I'm reading into a joke too much but still, that's being as evil as ~400+ Nazis, still quite a piece from the deep end of Neutral) he's not going to end up any higher (and even post character development he's DEFINITELY Chaotic, so a horizontal shift is unlikely).

Also, while getting wiped from existence is a pretty badass way to take out someone irredeemably evil (it's how I expect Xykon and possibly the IFCC is going to exit this story), I imagine it will probably be more satisfying for us to see Belkar earn something resembling a happy ending. He might be a blighter, but he's a endearing blighter.

Peelee

2016-02-24, 10:18 PM

Yea... ultimately I can't disagree with either of those. I suppose I'm being reflexively contrary for the sake of being contrary, and harping what is not 100% logically *required* to be true, even though I would bet an *awful lot* that it is true. I'll crawl back under my pedantic rock now.

This is the Order of the Stick forums. The whole freaking thing is a pedantic rock. Welcome!

Seward

2016-02-25, 01:25 AM

We've already seen it, with Belkar hanging out with Shojo and Mr Scruffy.

Actually that was Scruffy's ideal dream scenario. Not an afterlife, just a life where Sojo was alive again and Scruffy's minions Sojo and Belkar get with the scritches and plying him with yummy fish.

The problem with the "Belkar rocks the CE afterlife" is the competition. You generally start out as a mindless blob and suffer for a long time before even beginning the road to becoming a demon. Belkar's not even epic, he isn't likely to get a free pass on the entry-level-courses to serious CE. Unless Sabine intervenes I guess, he'll go into her plane for afterlife and she might want to pull him out of the muck for the latest dope on the OOTS to please her bosses or futher her plans somehow.

Quartz

2016-02-25, 06:52 AM

Unless Sabine intervenes I guess, he'll go into her plane for afterlife and she might want to pull him out of the muck for the latest dope on the OOTS to please her bosses or futher her plans somehow.

Ooh! Remember End of Days, where one of Arnie's mates get released from Hell to tempt him?

Darth Paul

2016-02-25, 11:08 PM

Yea... ultimately I can't disagree with either of those. I suppose I'm being reflexively contrary for the sake of being contrary, and harping what is not 100% logically *required* to be true, even though I would bet an *awful lot* that it is true. I'll crawl back under my pedantic rock now.

If you're going to be this reasonable, you're going to be absolutely no fun to argue with... :smallbiggrin:

Peelee

2016-02-25, 11:38 PM

If you're going to be this reasonable, you're going to be absolutely no fun to argue with... :smallbiggrin:

I'd offer to play Devil's Advocate, but the damned guy owes a lot in overdue fees. It's hell trying to get him to pay.

dmc91356

2016-02-26, 01:11 AM

Get a retainer, then you can take the fees out of that and not worry about payment. :smallbiggrin:

Darth Paul

2016-02-26, 02:41 AM

I'd offer to play Devil's Advocate, but the damned guy owes a lot in overdue fees. It's hell trying to get him to pay.

Maybe that's Belkar's afterlife... getting the Devil to cough up for what he owes Peelee.

Peelee

2016-02-26, 07:38 AM

Maybe that's Belkar's afterlife... getting the Devil to cough up for what he owes Peelee.

I want my two dollars.

Clistenes

2016-02-26, 09:51 AM

Ideally, he should shift his alignment enough to access Ysgard. That would be his ideal afterlife.

Lvl 2 Expert

2016-02-26, 11:42 AM

I think the Oracle doesn't give a rat's bottom about Roy's future, but he does care deeply about his own. He foresees the events of his own life in enough detail to know which customers are coming, when they'll be there, which are going to murder him and why; and he arranges with the clerics to show up afterwards and bring him back. (You'll recall that they make arrangements for the next visit before leaving- the next customer is going to be an angry druid who it's implied will actually eat the Oracle.) On this day, he also foresaw that Roy's ghost would be there witnessing everything and passing snarky comments about his mother. That's why he needed to have the wand ready to hand.

If he had really been checking up on Roy, then he would have known that banishing him would bypass the memory charm, and would have probably watched his words more carefully- since he would also know for a fact that Roy was going to be raised by the end of the book.

Probably that. Alternatively he secretly doesn't want the world to end and found a way to accomplish that while still not looking like a soft goody two shoes. Roy needed to remember certain things to in the end win.

But that sounds a little too much like a bad episode of the twilight zone.

Ideally, he should shift his alignment enough to access Ysgard. That would be his ideal afterlife.

I don't know. Pandemonium sounds kind of cool, especially for a high level ranger looking to hunt some random *******s.

Although judging by the Roy's scenes up there I'm not sure the stickyverse has quite as many afterlives as is official, but just one for each alignment. The three directors also support this idea.

georgie_leech

2016-02-26, 12:55 PM

Anyone know if the gods breathe? There's always the possibility that he'll do something crazy enough to ascend to actual Sexy Shoeless God of War status.:smallbiggrin:

Clistenes

2016-02-26, 02:56 PM

I don't know. Pandemonium sounds kind of cool, especially for a high level ranger looking to hunt some random *******s.

In Ysgard he would spend eternity fighting, drinking mead, eating pork roast and hooking with sexy Valkyries... which one do you think he would choose?

Peelee

2016-02-26, 03:28 PM

In Ysgard he would spend eternity fighting, drinking mead, eating pork roast and hooking with sexy Valkyries... which one do you think he would choose?

In Ysgard he would spend eternity fighting, drinking mead, eating pork roast and hooking with sexy Valkyries... which one do you think he would choose?

...Pandemonium, because he chose to be Chaotic Evil?

Mandor

2016-02-26, 07:29 PM

In Ysgard he would spend eternity fighting, drinking mead, eating pork roast and hooking with sexy Valkyries... which one do you think he would choose?

Perhaps the Belkster can multitask.

RatElemental

2016-02-26, 08:47 PM

Although judging by the Roy's scenes up there I'm not sure the stickyverse has quite as many afterlives as is official, but just one for each alignment. The three directors also support this idea.

Well, there is this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html):

Right. But us? We have this elaborate system of rewards and punishments: heaven or hell, valhalla or the abyss, limbo or nirvana, or a dozen in-between.

Really depends on Roy's Knowledge(The Planes) and how specific he was being with "dozen."

However, Hel seems to have her own afterlife that is separate from the generic alignment ones. I base this on the fact that apparently none of the other evil northern gods would gain power from Hel having all the dwarves. Who's to say the other gods don't have their own planes they spirit the particularly devout to?

Edit: There's also wherever the Dark One's army resides.

Darth Paul

2016-02-26, 11:02 PM

Who's to say the other gods don't have their own planes they spirit the particularly devout to?

The Dwarf pantheon seems to roughly follow the Norse pantheon; those who die well (i.e. honorably) go to Valhalla/Asgard/whatever-it's-called-this-year, while the dishonored dead go to Hel's realm, namely, Hell. Hell may be just a badly run-down suburb of Valhalla, rather than its own separate plane. I'm not certain whether it's been spelled out in the strip whether Hel has authority over an entire plane, or just the part of the Dwarven plane where the dishonored dead go.

On the other hand, since it's not made clear one way or the other as I recall (although my memory is often wrong): Hell may well be a separate plane which is Hel's domain. And other gods may easily have planes of their own. The Dark One seems to have a plane of his own; did it exist prior to his rise, or did it come into existence because of the power of his followers' belief? If the latter, that opens the door to other specific afterlives. Certainly it would seem the Elves must have one, if the Dwarves do.

Edit: You ninja'd me regarding the Dark One, while I was typing this reply. Great minds clearly think alike. :smallbiggrin:

Pyrous

2016-02-26, 11:19 PM

Darth Paul

2016-02-26, 11:37 PM

There is no dwarven pantheon. There is the Northern Pantheon, of which the dwarven demigod is a member. The elven gods are members of the Western Pantheon.

We saw in DStP that the LG souls of different world regions have their life review in different sides of the mountain. I would guess that each god has his domain somewhere in the plane appropriate to his alignment.

So, do dwarves who move South or West go to a different plane when they die?

I would still argue that the Dwarven gods make up at least a distinct subset of the Northern Gods. Or, let's put it another way, if there are humans worshiping them anywhere, we haven't seen them yet. All the gods voting at the Moot appeared to be Dwarven gods/ Norse god equivalents... so much so that I would say the Northern Gods are the Dwarven gods. If not, where were all the rest?

Pyrous

2016-02-27, 12:12 AM

So, do dwarves who move South or West go to a different plane when they die?

I would still argue that the Dwarven gods make up at least a distinct subset of the Northern Gods. Or, let's put it another way, if there are humans worshiping them anywhere, we haven't seen them yet. All the gods voting at the Moot appeared to be Dwarven gods/ Norse god equivalents... so much so that I would say the Northern Gods are the Dwarven gods. If not, where were all the rest?

There is ONE dwarf specific god: Dvalin. Half of the High Priests of the Gods are humans. 3 of the 7 High Priests of demigods in the moot are humans. The first temple we saw in the comic was Freya's, in a human village, with a human cleric. In Greysky City they have the Church of Loki, one of the priests of said church was helping Haley and Celia, and removed Belkar's Mark of Justice.

ETA: As for dying, Roy died in the South, and didn't end up stuck in the couple thousand long line. Durkon died in the West. If Vaarsuvius had been vampirized in the South, Nergal would have created vis vampire spirit. If Malack had vampirized Roy, I guess that Hel would have the same claim over him. The souls likely belong to the pantheon that created it. Namely, the pantheon of the region they were born. The races with specific Gods (or demigods) are a exception to this because their soul is created by the racial god, and belong to the pantheon of that god. And if a mortal worships a deity from a different pantheon of the one they were born under, then we would have to study the Godsmoot that was likely called about this.

Darth Paul

2016-02-27, 11:01 AM

There is ONE dwarf specific god: Dvalin. Half of the High Priests of the Gods are humans. 3 of the 7 High Priests of demigods in the moot are humans. The first temple we saw in the comic was Freya's, in a human village, with a human cleric. In Greysky City they have the Church of Loki, one of the priests of said church was helping Haley and Celia, and removed Belkar's Mark of Justice.

You're absolutely right about the church of Loki... It's the relative scale of gods relating to each other that makes me think of them as all dwarves, plus we had only seen dwarves worshiping them; with the important exception that I had forgotten about. That was my mistake & I stand corrected.

hroþila

2016-02-27, 01:28 PM

Exceptions, plural. Besides the cleric of Loki and the temple of Freya, we've also just seen a bunch of gnomish priests of the very same northern gods.

georgie_leech

2016-02-27, 01:51 PM

In other words, the dwarves worship the northern gods because they live in the north. This doesn't imply they are the bulk of their worshippers.

Clistenes

2016-02-27, 02:53 PM

Perhaps the Belkster can multitask.

I didn't mean choosing between fighting, eating, drinking and sexing, I meant choosing between doing all of those in Ysgard or spend eternity hunting stuff in the dark, noisy caverns of Pandemonium.

So, do dwarves who move South or West go to a different plane when they die?

I would still argue that the Dwarven gods make up at least a distinct subset of the Northern Gods. Or, let's put it another way, if there are humans worshiping them anywhere, we haven't seen them yet. All the gods voting at the Moot appeared to be Dwarven gods/ Norse god equivalents... so much so that I would say the Northern Gods are the Dwarven gods. If not, where were all the rest?

The Northen Gods ARE the Dwarven Gods. Dwarves have only one race-specific demigod.

However, I think that, if a dwarf converts to a different directional pantheon, he or she would fall out of the Northen Pantheon purview, and hence, outside of Hel's influence, and would go to different Afterlife after death.

Mmmm... time for dwarves to convert en masse to Adad's worship? Or Ishtar's, Or Marduk's. Shamash and Sin both seem cool deities.

Vinyadan

2016-02-27, 04:29 PM

If the dwarves all live in the same place, they probably all worship the same pantheon. If this were true, it wouldn't be wrong to say "dwarf gods" instead of "northern gods". However, we also have seen a dwergar in Azure City. He may have been a travelling merchant, but I wonder about his religion.

I think we give that much importance to the relationship between dwarves and their religion because we have seen a lot of cleric dwarves, and how their religion effects their lives, and we identify dwarf society with what is actually their religious society. The fact that they have special afterlives of which we know may give us more reason to identify a widespread religion as the dwarf religion.

In other words: maybe not-cleric dwarves are more similar to humans, from a religious perspective.

wumpus

2016-02-27, 07:25 PM

I didn't mean choosing between fighting, eating, drinking and sexing, I meant choosing between doing all of those in Ysgard or spend eternity hunting stuff in the dark, noisy caverns of Pandemonium.

Mr. Scruffy is good at doing his redemption thing, but he's nowhere near "undo 2 kilonazis in under a year" good. As Lord Soon said, "redemption is a rare and special thing".

I think the best that Belkar can hope for is a trip to the Abyss and place in the armies in Eternal Battle. Maybe in a few millennia he will take his proper place as the "sexy, shoeless, god of war". No idea if he would think the Snarl would be worse. From the looks of it, Xykon is willing to take absolute destruction (the eventual fate of a lich, and presumably similar to death by snarl) over the long painful transformation of souls into parts of the Abyss.

LightPhoenix

2016-02-28, 02:12 AM

My crazy theory is that Tiamat, and thus the Oracle, can't see past the rift into the other world. At first I thought Belkar would sacrifice himself by pulling Durkon into the portal to get Snarled. The more I think about it though, the more I think what will happen is Belkar (and possibly Durkon and/or the Order) go through the portal and Belkar stays there. That would fulfill the prophecy as pedantically as possible, and allow Rich to do some exposition about the other world.

TheNecrocomicon

2016-03-31, 11:16 PM

I don't think we'll get to see Belkar's "afterlife" at all, but rather his unlife. Consider the following:

Belkar will draw his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year.

Now we all know what a fondness the Oracle has for exact wording. And back at the start of the current book, when the Order were still in the gnome town (the name of the place escapes me), wasn't there a big show when Roy and Lurkon were going around to the local temples in #982/#984 about how the undead don't really breathe at all?

The combination of the two has me believing that Belkar will probably get vampirified, and the most likely time for that to happen is in a desperate push to take down Lurkon and his associated spawn before more damage can be done in the dwarven homelands. Since Belkar's already Evil-aligned, his soul wouldn't be overridden by another one the way that Durkon was hijacked by Lurkon, or if Belkar does get a vampire soul, it and his normal one will probably get along famously with so many things to agree on.

Actually, now that I think about it, vampirification would probably synergize fantastically with Belkar's desire to be a more powerful barbarian, thanks to increased physical strength, and even the ability to change form into a bat, wolf, etc. would be a boon to a ranger (as opposed to Durkon, where vampirification was a drawback to his clerical abilities).

hroþila

2016-04-01, 04:55 AM

Belkar is also "not long for this world".

Bulldog Psion

2016-04-01, 07:27 AM

The dwarves seem to be under a unique and exclusive divine curse.

They must worship Thor, and must additionally die in battle, or they automatically go to Hel's domain to be tormented for eternity.

Worse yet, this isn't just a theory. The gods are demonstrably real and present, and one can Plane Shift to confirm the conditions of the afterlife.

Their situation is quite horrifying, actually. (Of course, if this were anything like realistic, their society would have imploded long ago; and if it somehow didn't, it would be filled with constant fatal duels and berserkers, and would be a belligerent, conquering, extremely bellicose and hostile culture. Luckily, it's a D&D comic, so having an insane doom like that just produces a bunch of slightly grumpy, hard-working people with pseudo-Scottish accents. :smallbiggrin: )

TheNecrocomicon

2016-04-01, 08:03 AM

Belkar is also "not long for this world".

Sure, but only in #572 which I quoted did the Oracle speak about Belkar "on the record" in his whole glowy-aura, green-speech-bubbles routine. I would tend to say that's the real prophecy, as opposed to some offhand comment made while not on record.

Kish

2016-04-01, 09:12 AM

Sure, but only in #572 which I quoted did the Oracle speak about Belkar "on the record" in his whole glowy-aura, green-speech-bubbles routine. I would tend to say that's the real prophecy, as opposed to some offhand comment made while not on record.
Why? If you're assuming the Oracle is lying some of the time when he says Belkar's a goner, why the arbitrary line between "this might be a lie, this isn't"?

NerdyKris

2016-04-01, 09:24 AM

Thematically that doesn't make much sense to retread the exact same vampire plot with Belkar that Durkon just had. This isn't Order of the Vampires. In my opinion, any ending that results in a still evil Belkar walking around sort of defeats the entire point of his slow path to redemption.

Peelee

2016-04-01, 09:27 AM

RatElemental

2016-04-01, 10:05 AM

If we want to go that far down the exact wording rabbit hole and ignore unofficial hints at it (savor his next birthday cake, etc), then it becomes possible for Belkar to change his name and dodge the prophecy. Or if the oracle is referring to the entity known as Belkar, if he somehow finds redemption, then he's not really the same Belkar now is he? I've seen prophecies gotten out of with similar "loopholes" before, though I doubt the giant would stretch the wording that far.

Belkar will draw his last breath-ever-before the end of the year.

Peelee

2016-04-01, 11:55 AM

KorvinStarmast

2016-04-01, 01:04 PM

The dwarves seem to be under a unique and exclusive divine curse.

They must worship Thor, and must additionally die in battle, or they automatically go to Hel's domain to be tormented for eternity.
Uh, you got part of that dead wrong. There are other Gods, like Loki and Odin, who the dwarves worship. Odin's high priest also figures in OoTS.

Black Socks

2016-04-01, 05:53 PM

NerdyKris

2016-04-01, 06:18 PM

But are we sure Belkar is going to die? The Oracle said he would "draw his last breath ever before the end of the year", but that doesn't mean he's going to die. We know from comic #982 that vampires don't need to breathe. Maybe he'll just become a vampire...

Well, I'm repeating myself from five posts ago, but thematically that doesn't make much sense to retread the exact same vampire plot with Belkar that Durkon just had. This isn't Order of the Vampires. And we know that a vampire is an evil spirit inhabiting the body, so it's very unlikely that the one that inhabits Belkar would be any more likely to work with the Order than Durkon's was, so you'd be right back at the same "We have to stop our evil vampire team mate" plot line we're currently in.

Bulldog Psion

2016-04-01, 06:29 PM

Uh, you got part of that dead wrong. There are other Gods, like Loki and Odin, who the dwarves worship. Odin's high priest also figures in OoTS.

True, I was wrong on that. But they still have the stupid "die in battle" thing, for some reason.

Ruck

2016-04-01, 06:31 PM

No, Belkar is a sadistic monster and hasn't really stopped.
What sadistic, monstrous behavior has Belkar engaged in in the current book?

martianmister

2016-04-01, 09:10 PM

What sadistic, monstrous behavior has Belkar engaged in in the current book?

How about the last panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html)?

Cizak

2016-04-01, 09:25 PM

True, I was wrong on that. But they still have the stupid "die in battle" thing, for some reason.

Probably because of the mentioned and unspecified deal between Hel and Thor, but also just because the dwarves believe in their honor system. Rich has mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13053125&postcount=20) that humans who hold a strong belief in an honor system would also need to die honorably to avoid Hel, but we can probably assume that very few humans do.

Kish

2016-04-01, 09:41 PM

What sadistic, monstrous behavior has Belkar engaged in in the current book?
The current book has covered, what, a week of in-world time?

RatElemental

2016-04-02, 01:37 AM

To you as well: define "official prophecy."

When the oracle does that weird green speech balloon thing. Anything you'll remember while passing through the memory charm (not counting being banished past it).

Off hand comments the oracle makes when not doing that still might be true, he is an oracle after all, but he'd be under no obligation to tell the truth. Though because he seems to assume his little charm is completely foolproof he probably isn't lying in any of his offhand comments, there would be little to no point.

That is, unless he did in fact know Roy would get past the memory charm when he was banished and so he tried to plant seeds of a specific interpretation of the prophecy about Belkar, for... some reason. Maybe fate isn't fixed and he wants to make sure Belkar never gets raised, or prophecies are sort of a toss up between the interpretations until one of them happens or something. All highly unlikely I think.

Peelee

2016-04-02, 01:43 AM

When the oracle does that weird green speech balloon thing. Anything you'll remember while passing through the memory charm (not counting being banished past it).

Off hand comments the oracle makes when not doing that still might be true, he is an oracle after all, but he'd be under no obligation to tell the truth. Though because he seems to assume his little charm is completely foolproof he probably isn't lying in any of his offhand comments, there would be little to no point.

That is, unless he did in fact know Roy would get past the memory charm when he was banished and so he tried to plant seeds of a specific interpretation of the prophecy about Belkar, for... some reason. Maybe fate isn't fixed and he wants to make sure Belkar never gets raised, or prophecies are sort of a toss up between the interpretations until one of them happens or something. All highly unlikely I think.

Awesome; that's actually a great definition for this context.

Now, assuming that the other predictions the Oracle has made aren't true, what's the point of the memory charm? And, coming from the other direction, with the memory charm in place, what's the point of the Oracle making intentionally false predictions without the green glowies?

Ruck

2016-04-02, 02:37 AM

How about the last panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html)?

The one where he talks about being willing to do something that he doesn't actually do?

The current book has covered, what, a week of in-world time?

It's still shown him doing plenty of things, none of which I would describe as the acts of a sadistic monster, and at least one of which-- #969 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html)-- I would definitely say the old Belkar wouldn't have done. (I'd also argue the old Belkar wouldn't have cared enough about Durkon to be so relentless in trying to expose Greg for who he really is.)

edit: I know #969 is evidence that Belkar still pings evil. But I don't think the old Belkar would have turned down the lunch offer and certainly wouldn't have done so out of guilt. I'm not arguing that he's a new person or even that his alignment has changed. I'm arguing against the idea that he hasn't changed in even the slightest.

RatElemental

2016-04-02, 03:20 AM

Awesome; that's actually a great definition for this context.

Now, assuming that the other predictions the Oracle has made aren't true, what's the point of the memory charm? And, coming from the other direction, with the memory charm in place, what's the point of the Oracle making intentionally false predictions without the green glowies?

Well, if you want a crazy theory for why the oracle would lie while "off the record," other than just to screw with people for the small amount of time they'll remember the lies, see my crazy theory spoiler.

I labeled it crazy for a reason though, I don't think it's anywhere near likely, and for all intents and purposes we as readers can probably take just about everything the oracle has said at face value.

martianmister

2016-04-02, 05:02 AM

The one where he talks about being willing to do something that he doesn't actually do?

The one where he talks about to do someting he actually would do.

Kish

2016-04-02, 07:52 AM

edit: I know #969 is evidence that Belkar still pings evil. But I don't think the old Belkar would have turned down the lunch offer and certainly wouldn't have done so out of guilt. I'm not arguing that he's a new person or even that his alignment has changed. I'm arguing against the idea that he hasn't changed in even the slightest.
Who said "he hasn't changed in even the slightest"?

NerdyKris

2016-04-02, 09:52 AM

When the oracle does that weird green speech balloon thing. Anything you'll remember while passing through the memory charm (not counting being banished past it).

Off hand comments the oracle makes when not doing that still might be true, he is an oracle after all, but he'd be under no obligation to tell the truth. Though because he seems to assume his little charm is completely foolproof he probably isn't lying in any of his offhand comments, there would be little to no point.

That is, unless he did in fact know Roy would get past the memory charm when he was banished and so he tried to plant seeds of a specific interpretation of the prophecy about Belkar, for... some reason. Maybe fate isn't fixed and he wants to make sure Belkar never gets raised, or prophecies are sort of a toss up between the interpretations until one of them happens or something. All highly unlikely I think.

He said the second prophecy in the green speech. Roy could have walked out the front gate and remembered it. That was the whole purpose of the prophecy. Bypassing the memory charm only allowed Roy to know what evil act Belkar committed that set off the mark, it has nothing to do with knowing about the prophecy.

KorvinStarmast

2016-04-02, 10:18 AM

True, I was wrong on that. But they still have the stupid "die in battle" thing, for some reason.
If you look up Norse Mythology, there is a theme in that mythos that only the noblest/bravest warriors will be retrieved by Valkyrie as they die in battle. They are taken to Valhalla where they party and fight and party and fight until the Gotterdamerung.

I am pretty sure Rich is riffing off of that element of the RW mythology for that pantheon of Gods.

RatElemental

2016-04-02, 10:26 AM

He said the second prophecy in the green speech. Roy could have walked out the front gate and remembered it. That was the whole purpose of the prophecy. Bypassing the memory charm only allowed Roy to know what evil act Belkar committed that set off the mark, it has nothing to do with knowing about the prophecy.

As others have pointed out, the prophecy specifically mentions taking his last breath, and there are ways of being "alive" that don't involve breathing. And not just vampirization, there are intelligent golems, liches, and even some those things Xykon mentioned while talking down V's soul splices. It's all the "unofficial" comments that would have been forgotten that heavily suggest Belkar won't be around at all potential loophole or not. By which I mean on the material plane, but Snarl-death is a distinct possibility for him.

Ruck

2016-04-02, 05:40 PM

Who said "he hasn't changed in even the slightest"?

That's how I interpreted the "he's the same sadistic monster he's always been..." comment. He isn't the same, in that he's developed a capacity for empathy, for loyalty (to Mr. Scruffy, at least, although I'd argue he has it for Durkon to after he sacrificed his life to save him), for guilt over taking advantage of someone, etc.

Kish

2016-04-02, 06:29 PM

So, no one said "he hasn't changed in even the slightest," even what you're putting in quotes is at best a paraphrase (what you initially responded to was "No, Belkar is a sadistic monster and hasn't really stopped," if you bothered to scroll up and look at it), and you're beating on a strawman.

(I think there's an excellent chance Belkar will never murder an innocent or torture a captive again, though the fact that I expect him to die and stay dead within a few in-comic weeks is a significant part of the reason why, but let's not make arguments about what we think people meant when they said something different. If you think Belkar has stopped--that is, that if five minutes from now the group discovered that Greg and Xykon had annihilated each other, and Belkar wandered off on his own and never saw the rest of the Order again, he would never again choose to do anything that would earn the description "sadistic monster"--then you disagree with the person you responded to. If you don't believe that, then you don't.)

TheNecrocomicon

2016-04-03, 10:12 AM

As others have pointed out, the prophecy specifically mentions taking his last breath, and there are ways of being "alive" that don't involve breathing. And not just vampirization, there are intelligent golems, liches, and even some those things Xykon mentioned while talking down V's soul splices. It's all the "unofficial" comments that would have been forgotten that heavily suggest Belkar won't be around at all potential loophole or not. By which I mean on the material plane, but Snarl-death is a distinct possibility for him.

Basically, this.

Sorry I've been occupied for a few days, the "going into a beam of light and speaking in green speech bubbles" mode was indeed the criterion I was using for "official" prophecy by the Oracle. Him speaking normally is just him saying whatever he wants instead of going "on the record". What motivated me to sorta-resurrect this thread in the first place is that people seem to be obsessing over the off-the-cuff lines that imply permanent death for Belkar, as opposed to the prophecy which allows a massive loophole in the form of only talking about taking "his last breath ever" -- and other prophecies made in this same series have been subject to massive loopholes before.

There are three ways I figure this could go down:

A) Belkar might indeed die permanently, but unless this happens taking down Xykon/Redcloak/etc. in a climactic final battle of the series, any death beforehand means there will be a permanent change to the dynamic of the Order around whom this series revolves -- which is currently driving the drama around Durkon/Lurkon -- and probably having to introduce or at least fully develop another main character with a book and a half to go. (Not to mention Mr. Scruffy and Bloodfeast having to find and adopt a new master, if they don't die alongside Belkar.) I just don't see it happening or making sense from a narrative standpoint.

B) Belkar might die non-permanently, but we already had a main character in the afterlife and a mad scramble to resurrect them, and it was Roy no less. Belkar getting the same treatment would feel and be repetitive and cheap, and I don't see the other Order members being as willing to risk themselves struggling to resurrect him they way that they did for Roy as their leader. Plus non-permanent death would mean Belkar would draw breath once again after being resurrected, unless ...

C) Belkar might carry on as sentient undead. This would satisfy the "take his last breath ever" requirement that the prophecy revolves around, and yes, there are plenty of forms that the non-breathing undead could take. I just think that vampirification is the most likely since ready access currently exists in the form of Lurkon and his remaining spawn, and Malack's aborted attempt at turning Belkar (before fighting and turning Durkon) could just have been clever foreshadowing. While being a vampire is constant torture for lawful good Durkon, chaotic evil Belkar might just enjoy it and the power boost that it brings.

hroþila

2016-04-03, 10:53 AM

Peelee

2016-04-03, 11:42 AM

The only reason the memory charm exists is that the Oracle doesn't want the legit stuff he says on top of what he's officially asked about (and paid for) to be remembered by his clients. It doesn't make much sense to then dismiss those things he says off the record as "not really prophecies".

Indeed, this. "Official prophecy" just means "the ones the asker remembers." All his prophetic statements should be taken as true.

Sir_Norbert

2016-04-03, 12:22 PM

Rather, all his prophetic statements should be taken as things the author wants us to believe are definitely going to come true. We have no knowledge of how the Oracle's prophetic gift actually works, except that the author allows him to say things about the future, and all the ones that have been resolved so far have come true. We don't know whether this one will come true or not until it actually happens.

Sure, you can say: "If it's not going to come true, why did the author introduce the prophecy into the story?" But there could be other reasons. The Oracle (or his divine source) could be lying or mistaken, and either way there could be an interesting reason for it that we don't know yet. This is an author with a long track record of surprising us and making the most unexpected twists actually work.

Sure, I think it's most likely the prophecy will simply come true. I just wanted to point out that "the Oracle said so" is not a sufficient reason for claiming absolute certainty.

dps

2016-04-03, 12:49 PM

Belkar is also "not long for this world".

Well, d'oh, he's like, what, 3' tall? Not long at all. :smallbiggrin:

Peelee

2016-04-03, 01:16 PM

NerdyKris

2016-04-03, 01:25 PM

Agreed. Unless we're given any indication of an unreliable narrator, assuming a character delivering information is outright lying to the reader pretty much renders any discussion meaningless, as you could argue anything you want, and just dismiss all evidence to the contrary as just being a red herring.

Kish

2016-04-03, 01:54 PM

I think "the Oracle may be lying" is a valid, if ultimately, in my opinion, doomed, perspective.

I think "the Oracle is a truth-teller with some loopholes right where I stop wanting to believe him" lacks.

I think the claim that "other prophecies made in this same series have been subject to massive loopholes before" has a massive [citation needed] under it. With a note that I mean a citation for the statement made there, not for other statements that someone thinks are related. Yes, I know the Oracle spent a strip trolling Belkar before the prophecy that Belkar would kill one of the people on his list came true in the most literal way possible. Yes, I know Roy was unhappy with the answer that Xykon was in his throne room. No, neither of those makes "other prophecies made in the same series have been subject to massive loopholes" true.

Bulldog Psion

2016-04-03, 04:28 PM

Somewhere, Mr. Burlew is rubbing his hands and snickering in glee at the way those few sentences "launched a thousand threads." :smallsmile:

TheNecrocomicon

2016-04-03, 08:26 PM

The Oracle has repeatedly demonstrated a predilection for weasel words and vagueness when either talking or prophesying, and furthermore there must be some significance to his drawing on some form of divine or magical power to provide prophecies "on the record" (floating, beam of light, green aura, green speech) as opposed to the regular chit-chat when he's just bantering with the characters.

I only ask that people look beyond the absolutely literal interpretation to consider possibilities beyond what we are obviously meant to believe. Remember, this is a story where "Durkon will return home posthumously" and "Durkon will bring ruin to the dwarves" has already ended up meaning "Durkon will return home and bring ruin as a vampire", and it took several hundred strips for this to come to fruition, so we already know Rich likes to build enough room into prophecies to permit plot twists far in advance.

Both of the Oracle's comments in question about Belkar, "not long for this world" and "will draw his last breath -- ever" were made to Roy in #572 when Roy was dead and could remember everything as he wasn't subject to the memory-wiping enchantment on the area (which the Oracle knew). In neither case does the Oracle literally state "Belkar will die".

Belkar might get banished to some other world, and/or there are forms of life he could take that do not require breathing. Sentient undead do not breathe, and Belkar would have to die to become one (Captain Obvious here). Various extraplanar beings, if I recall, do not breathe (or do not need to) and are not of this world. Hell, for all we know, Belkar might ascend to become a literal Sexy Shoeless God of War; gods don't need to breathe either, so even that would satisfy both of the Oracle's comments, on or off "the record" (also, tiebreaking Godsmoot vote, anyone?).

I am not stating that the Oracle is outright lying to the reader or the characters, only that he leaves holes in his "truth" so big that you could barrel-roll the Mechane through them.

Kish

2016-04-03, 09:04 PM

TheNecrocomicon

2016-04-03, 09:37 PM

Aside from the fact that the Oracle said why he does the green glowies thing, which has already been cited in this thread, and thus saying "he must have some reason" fails to point to "he must have some reason which will specifically be a reason for Belkar to stay alive," could you please make up your mind whether you're arguing that the green-glowies prophecy is in some way more true than the no-green-glowies ones, or not? Because your latest post seems to be claiming both.

I consider his green-glow-trance-mode to be him making an official, word-for-word prophecy, backed by whatever underlying divine or magical power is involved. Regular talking could just be anything, whether comments informed by prophecy or just messing with the characters' heads.

I am simply trying to allow for the fact that other people seem to believe that every single word that comes out of the Oracle's mouth is straight prophecy.

And even so, my point stands, despite the pedantics: the Oracle has never yet literally stated that Belkar would die, only that he was not long for this world and that he would draw his last breath ever. As I and others have already repeatedly pointed out, these have several possible meanings (and others I haven't thought of) above and beyond the obvious possibility that Belkar will simply die.

This is not arbitrary wishful thinking. The prophecies surrounding Durkon stated that he would bring ruin to the dwarves, and also that he would return home "posthumously". That would, at first interpretation, seem to suggest that he would die and be buried there ... and yet, here we are, with Durkon hijacked by a vampire and bringing ruin to his homeland after his death. Thus it strikes me that it is extremely likely that the vague wording of Belkar's future fate is no accident on Rich's part, and that we're supposed to believe it means conventional death when the end result will be something else entirely.

Jasdoif

2016-04-03, 09:48 PM

The prophecies surrounding Durkon stated that he would bring ruin to the dwarves, and also that he would return home "posthumously". That would, at first interpretation, seem to suggest that he would die and be buried there ... and yet, here we are, with Durkon hijacked by a vampire and bringing ruin to his homeland after his death.First, the Oracle didn't give the prophecy about Durkon and the dwarves; that came from one of Odin's priests.

Anyway, where's your proof that Durkon won't be buried there?

Pyrous

2016-04-03, 09:59 PM

This is not arbitrary wishful thinking. The prophecies surrounding Durkon stated that he would bring ruin to the dwarves, and also that he would return home "posthumously". That would, at first interpretation, seem to suggest that he would die and be buried there ...

The Oracle said that Durkon would die before going back to dwarven lands. That he would be buried there was Durkon's wishful thinking.

NerdyKris

2016-04-03, 10:12 PM

The Oracle's prophecies are fairly straightforward. They don't really use weasel words. The only one you could argue is the posthumously one, but Durkon is still dead and his body is returning to Dwaven lands. That it's walking there by virtue of an evil spell instead of being carried in a coffin is beside the point. Durkon is returning after his death. For all we know, he may never be raised.

Haley solved her affliction by not questioning an unexpected event.

Vaarsuvius said the four right words to the right person at the right time for the wrong reasons.

Belkar asked if he would kill any of the following (not all of them), and he did, by killing the Oracle.

Roy's prophecy was screwed up by Roy, not the Oracle. The Oracle even tried to get him to fix his wording so it wouldn't send them in the wrong direction.

So we've had no indication that the Oracle lies or intentionally misleads people with his prophecies.

TheNecrocomicon

2016-04-03, 10:15 PM

First, the Oracle didn't give the prophecy about Durkon and the dwarves; that came from one of Odin's priests.

Anyway, where's your proof that Durkon won't be buried there?

The Oracle said that Durkon would die before going back to dwarven lands. That he would be buried there was Durkon's wishful thinking.

Sure. But prophecy is prophecy, whether that's backed by the divine power of Tiamat or Odin or any of their peers.

You're missing the point: that was merely an example I was using of how Rich left himself a massive backdoor for Durkon to return home posthumously, other than the obvious implication that he would simply die and be buried there. Hindsight is 20/20, but at the time very few if any people must have guessed he was going to come home bringing ruin as a vampire.

With that tendency of Rich's storytelling being established around deaths of members of the Order, I think he has deliberately left a similarly huge loophole as to Belkar's supposed death. The Oracle, in his divine-powered precognitive trance in #572, stated Belkar would "draw his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year" after stating off the record that he was "not long for this world". This is after the Order's earlier visit, where he stated in #329 that Belkar "shouldn't bother funding his IRA" and should "savor his next birthday cake". None of those are a literal statement that Belkar will die, and pointedly leaving out that key fact not once but four times under direct questioning strikes me as a highly suspicious pattern.

NerdyKris

2016-04-03, 10:20 PM

The prophecies don't have "backdoors" just in case Rich wasn't sure what they'd be. They were all written with the express intention of foretelling future story points that were already planned. They mean exactly what he wanted them to mean when he wrote them.

Also a whole ton of people guessed the Durkon returning as undead plotline. Like so many. Constantly.

TheNecrocomicon

2016-04-03, 10:28 PM

Jasdoif

2016-04-03, 11:03 PM

But prophecy is prophecy, whether that's backed by the divine power of Tiamat or Odin or any of their peers.Melee attack rolls are melee attack rolls, whether they're backed by the base attack bonus of Roy or Vaarsuvius or any of their peers, too; that doesn't mean Vaarsuvius' performance with a melee attack roll is equivalent to Roy's performance with a melee attack roll.

You're missing the point: that was merely an example I was using of how Rich left himself a massive backdoor for Durkon to return home posthumously, other than the obvious implication that he would simply die and be buried there.I think there's another point there you're missing: you seem to be assuming that the existence of a convoluted way for a prophecy to be construed to pass means an obvious way for a prophecy to pass is off the table.

If Durkon were to die, come back as/in a vampire, return to his "beloved dwarven homelands" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), be destroyed, come back as himself via resurrection, die, and be buried in his ancestral tomb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html)....Events after which instance of death could fulfill the prophecy? Both, right? The existence of the more convoluted answer ("posthumous" as in "after dying") doesn't negate the more straightforward answer ("posthumous" as in "while dead").

If Roy were to be told that Xykon would be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate, prior to/instead of being within 1000 feet of Kraagor's Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html), then Xykon came with range of Soon's Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html), then much later Xykon were to arrive within 1000 feet Girard's Gate without any time to interact with the Gate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html)....Was the prophecy given to Roy fulfilled? Yes, right? That the prophecy Roy got was more restrictive than the question Roy genuinely thought he was asking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0332.html) didn't render the prophecy invalid.

So, if Belkar lost the ability to breathe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) without dying before the end of the year, and then died before the end of the year...wouldn't the prophecy still have been fulfilled? And if so, doesn't that mean any and all theorizing over whether/how Belkar's prophecy has been fulfilled is tenuous until the end of the year, without needing the prophecy to be inaccurate or convoluted?

Asphid

2016-04-03, 11:38 PM

I think there's another point there you're missing: you seem to be assuming that the existence of a convoluted way for a prophecy to be construed to pass means an obvious way for a prophecy to pass is off the table.

I didn't get the impression that Necrocomicom was actually trying to take any interpretation of the prophesy off of the table. I could be misconstruing arguments, or combining posters (it's after midnight and I've had a rather eventful night), but what I took from the posts was that both the simple "straight to the point" interpretation and the possibility of the "convoluted" path are both theoretically feasible given the Oracle's propensity for doublespeak and loose interpretation.

Peelee

2016-04-04, 01:54 AM

I consider his green-glow-trance-mode to be him making an official, word-for-word prophecy, backed by whatever underlying divine or magical power is involved. Regular talking could just be anything, whether comments informed by prophecy or just messing with the characters' heads.

You have yet to supply a convincing argument for why in the hell the Oracle would mess with people supplying fake prophecies when they will literally forget it the instant they leave the valley. Seriously. That is the ultimate exercise in futility, and the only reason this "excuse" keeps popping up is to bolster the argument that Belkar may not die, regardless of how baseless it is. I mean, hell, if you're going to say that the soothsayings of an oracle may be outright lies, what's to stop you from saying that even the ones "on the record" aren't also lies to try to nudge future events in that direction?

Sylian

2016-04-04, 06:01 AM

No, Belkar is a sadistic monster and hasn't really stopped.Hasn't he, though? He seems to actively work to improve the world and save the day. Might that be for egotistical reasons? Sure, but the point still remains: He worked really hard to expose the vampire, when he could've just bolted. He was willing to fool the gnome out of some money, but not take her on a date on false premises, and he felt bad about fooling her afterwards. Is he still Evil? Yes, him getting hurt by Protection from Evil proves as much, but I don't think he's unredeemable. He might end up at Chaotic Neutral at some point. Besides fooling the gnome (which, one could argue, was in the pursuit of the greater good, since they could use the extra resources to help save the world), and besides his treatment of the kobold (which, granted, was pretty Evil, although V took part in it too, and V's not Evil), what Evil deeds has he done in the past 200-300 comics or so?

hroþila

2016-04-04, 06:21 AM

Belkar has recently discovered that empathy is a thing, but *some* degree of empathy is hardly unusual among Evil types. It's the norm.

Yes, it does make redemption theoretically possible. No, it doesn't mean he's particularly far along that road.

Kish

2016-04-04, 06:47 AM

So if so many people guessed the plot twist about Durkon, and it was so transparent, why is the groupthink so much more adamant that Belkar's fate is the obvious one and not a future twist as well?
Dude, your barrage of derogatory terms aside, the fact is that hundreds of people have posted the "twist" you're so vehemently and aggressively arguing for, the first one five seconds after the Oracle's prophecy strip went up. You're getting more pushback than most of them because you're actively trying to stand in contradictory places--the green glowies matter, and they don't; "lookit the amazing twist, now expect a similar twist for Belkar" applies to one of Durkon's two prophecies--the one no one on the forum expected to be as simple as "he'll die and stay dead"--and not to the one that is, like Belkar stabbing the Oracle, coming true in the most literal way possible as Greg seems poised to go on a killing spree in dwarven lands. And you're backing this up, not with logic, but with text walls and insults.

TheNecrocomicon

2016-04-04, 09:35 AM

Well, apologies for getting reactionary and defensive, but it sure seems like there's been this mad rush to pile on me and shout me out of the thread for daring to break from the prevailing orthodox interpretation of the Oracle's words about Belkar.

I'm willing to accept that what the Oracle says, even in normal speech, may well be prophecy. I simply believe that when the Oracle speaks in his green-glow-trance-mode, it's prophecy 100% of the time, whereas when he speaks normally, it could be anything and shouldn't necessarily be relied upon.

I'm not saying the Oracle is faking his prophecies or outright lying. But as a couple of other posters have said, he has liberally used doublespeak and loose interpretation before. And these are his known comments on Belkar's death, at least the ones I could find:

- "shouldn't bother funding his IRA" (#329, normal speech)
- "savor his next birthday cake" (#329, normal speech)
- "not long for this world" (#572, normal speech)
- "draw his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year" (#572, empowered prophetic speech)

Even allowing for normal speech potentially being straight prophecy, at no point does the Oracle literally say "Belkar will die", and given the plot twists flowing from past prophecies about someone else's death, I just think we all should be open-minded as to what the fulfillment of the above statements will end up being.

NerdyKris

2016-04-04, 10:15 AM

So if so many people guessed the plot twist about Durkon, and it was so transparent, why is the groupthink so much more adamant that Belkar's fate is the obvious one and not a future twist as well? Obviously the prophecies around Durkon were a setup for the events currently transpiring in the comic. So why is it such heresy to suggest a similar pattern around the statements made on Belkar?

Because repeating the same plot a second time with Belkar would be a bit lazy. I've already said it in this thread.

If the vampire/undead isn't Belkar's soul, then Belkar is still dead.
In that case, the creature would have very little reason to be working with the Order and would turn on them
We'd now have the same "betrayed by a creature pretending to be their dead companion" plotline that is currently happening.
If the undead is Belkar's soul, it gets a little fuzzier, but we'd still be in "we just went through this with Durkon" territory.

The theory would have been perfectly sound before strip #877 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html), and in fact was pretty likely, even to the point that a lot of people were convinced Belkar wasn't going to be saved during that confrontation until Durkon showed up. Going back to the discussion thread for #870 and you'd see a ton of people exclaiming "Oh man, vampire Belkar" and debating what would happen now. But once Durkon was turned into a vampire, it becomes less likely that Belkar would become one as well because it would be repeating the same plot device.

TheNecrocomicon

2016-04-04, 10:31 AM

Because repeating the same plot a second time with Belkar would be a bit lazy. I've already said it in this thread.

If the vampire/undead isn't Belkar's soul, then Belkar is still dead.
In that case, the creature would have very little reason to be working with the Order and would turn on them
We'd now have the same "betrayed by a creature pretending to be their dead companion" plotline that is currently happening.
If the undead is Belkar's soul, it gets a little fuzzier, but we'd still be in "we just went through this with Durkon" territory.

The theory would have been perfectly sound before strip #877 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html), and in fact was pretty likely, even to the point that a lot of people were convinced Belkar wasn't going to be saved during that confrontation until Durkon showed up. Going back to the discussion thread for #870 and you'd see a ton of people exclaiming "Oh man, vampire Belkar" and debating what would happen now. But once Durkon was turned into a vampire, it becomes less likely that Belkar would become one as well because it would be repeating the same plot device.

True, it would be repetitive, and that's a solid reason to doubt it. I'm not adamant that that's the way it's going to go, but it just seems to me that becoming some form of sentient undead is a prime candidate for drawing his last breath, being not long for this world, etc. without literally dying and staying gone -- since it seems the Oracle's statements are going out of their way to leave a path open for some reason yet to be seen.

It wouldn't really be the same dynamic as with Durkon and Lurkon though, since do the halflings even have any equivalent to Hel who would bother manipulating Belkar to similar ends? Also, Rich could potentially mine a fair bit of comedy out of Belkar's original soul and vampire soul actually getting along since they would both be Evil-aligned and thus he actually wouldn't change too much in outlook and personality. Or he could just end up some other kind of undead and satisfy the prophecies anyway.

On the other hand, Belkar straight-up dying, with or without going to the afterlife, would also be a similarly lazy and repetitive plot device since we already saw Roy go through that.

hroþila

2016-04-04, 10:36 AM

TheNecrocomicon

2016-04-04, 10:54 AM

I think you're forgetting another possibility why the Giant would have the Oracle word his prophecies regarding Belkar like that: to later subvert the expectations about a subversion by just straight killing him dead.

(Also, way too much of this "that would be bad writing, the Giant wouldn't do THAT" malarkey going on in this thread. Presumptuous as it sounds... I must appeal to Hroþila's Law here)

Hel didn't create Vampire Durkon in her capacity as the dwarven goddes of the dishonoured dead, but in her capacity as the Northern goddess of Death. In other words, if Belkar is a northerner, Hel would also create the vampire spirit for Belkar's body. And she'd probably take an interest on him at this point, since she needs all the soldiers she can get and she already got the "get a sufficiently powerful High Priest" thing covered.

Also distinctly possible. If I recall, didn't everyone think Malack was a vampire right off the bat, Rich dropped hints to the contrary, and then went for the un-twist by meeting people's expectations? So yes, it really could be anything, since in Rich's storytelling both twists and un-twists have come to pass.

Do we even know what pantheon Belkar falls under? Or none, if he is an atheist? To whose domain would his soul even go? Also it seems Hel has little regard for actual soldiers, as the only spawn Lurkon created were basically cannon fodder, one to stand in for him protected under the Godsmoot rules and the others to serve as a distraction prior to teleportation (and as a bonus since a couple actually survived). Most of them were spellcasters in their own right prior to turning, and the only ones who have been mentioned as crucial to the plan so far have been Lurkon and the Ex-Exarch.

Anyways, I'm going on tangents when the thread is about Belkar.

Ruck

2016-04-04, 12:42 PM

Hasn't he, though? He seems to actively work to improve the world and save the day. Might that be for egotistical reasons? Sure, but the point still remains: He worked really hard to expose the vampire, when he could've just bolted. He was willing to fool the gnome out of some money, but not take her on a date on false premises, and he felt bad about fooling her afterwards. Is he still Evil? Yes, him getting hurt by Protection from Evil proves as much, but I don't think he's unredeemable. He might end up at Chaotic Neutral at some point. Besides fooling the gnome (which, one could argue, was in the pursuit of the greater good, since they could use the extra resources to help save the world), and besides his treatment of the kobold (which, granted, was pretty Evil, although V took part in it too, and V's not Evil), what Evil deeds has he done in the past 200-300 comics or so?
I'm not alone!

On the other hand, Belkar straight-up dying, with or without going to the afterlife, would also be a similarly lazy and repetitive plot device since we already saw Roy go through that.
Death can happen in more than one fashion and for more than one reason. (I mean, everyone dies.) Your "without going to the afterlife" qualifier is just, in my opinion, wrong-- we saw Roy go to the afterlife for a reason; if we don't see Belkar doing it, it's not the same plot device.

Personally, I've long thought the most likely scenario is

Belkar dies doing something that protects or saves the rest of the Order-- or maybe just O-Chul, to make up for leaving him behind in Azure City-- and it's only this final sacrifice that finally pushes him from CE to CN. (Belkar's sacrifice could be for Durkon as well, but I think it's more likely we get Durkon back by the end of this book and Belkar doesn't die until the final book.)

I think you're forgetting another possibility why the Giant would have the Oracle word his prophecies regarding Belkar like that: to later subvert the expectations about a subversion by just straight killing him dead.

(Also, way too much of this "that would be bad writing, the Giant wouldn't do THAT" malarkey going on in this thread. Presumptuous as it sounds... I must appeal to Hroþila's Law here)
While the Doylist reasoning isn't the best case to be made, I don't think it's inapplicable at all. On the subject of the Oracle, while "The Giant wouldn't repeat a similar plotline" is a possible argument, I think a better one is that the Giant doesn't try to trick us. Actions people take are both foreshadowed and in-character. There aren't moments where it turns out the story we were being told was a lie and something else entirely was happening. (That's why I don't think the Oracle is lying-- he has no reason to do so and we have no reason to believe we're being lied to about his prophecies or the things he says.)

I find most of the far-fetched theories on the forum have roots in that idea. Generally, I take what's presented in the comic at face value.

somethingrandom

2016-04-05, 10:47 AM

It also requires:
1) Someone willing to have them raised
2) a cleric of sufficiently high level who can cast the spell
3) a quantity of diamond dust

If any one of those is missing, no raise dead will happen. When Roy died, they had 1) and 3), but had great trouble locating 2)

When Belkar dies, they may well have 2) and 3) but will the Order even want to raise him?

Sorry about going back so far only started reading this thread today
There is another requirement
4) the deceased's remains (unless true resurrection is being used)

it is possible that Belkar will die in a manner that destroys/renders his remains unrecoverable.

Bulldog Psion

2016-04-05, 11:13 AM

I don't really have a dog in this fight, since I really don't care which way it turns out. I figure Belkar's going to be unmade by the Snarl, but if it turns out to be something different, that's fine with me, too. Alive dead undead, whatever.

However, the only thing that makes me suspect there's a slight chance of a subversion is that Roy is so dead certain that Belkar's going to kick off and not be a problem any more. When a protagonist is that confident something is going to happen, especially when it's beneficial to them... well, as Elan would say, "Dun dun DUNNNN!" :smallbiggrin:

Mayrax

2016-04-12, 02:05 PM

I bet he'll come back just to annoy Roy.

wumpus

2016-04-21, 09:52 AM

... Yes, him getting hurt by Protection from Evil proves as much, but I don't think he's unredeemable. He might end up at Chaotic Neutral at some point. ...

As Soon Kim said "redemption is a rare and special thing ... and not for everyone". Maybe Belkar could work off 9knazis of evil. But not under a year. And if he isn't there yet, he only has a week or so left. The other side of the coin is the motivation. V knows 'e made a mistake, and is working toward redemption. Belkar is simply working for number one (see the "conversion" strip), this isn't a remotely effective means at redemption. No matter how hard Mr. Scruffy is working on it, Belkar isn't really working on redemption (yet).

Belkar's true self image is "sexy shoeless god of war". He has a much more realistic chance of achieving that in the Abyss, and that's where I expect him to go. Note that Xykon has chosen an eventual fate similar to being destroyed much like the Snarl, and presumably choose it specifically to avoid the Abyss. Rich may decide that the Snarl is an "merciful death" for a semi-redeemed Belkar.

Kish

2016-04-21, 10:42 AM

Xykon chose to become a lich by preference to remaining in Lirian's prison, magicless, until he died of old age. All he knew about liches was what Redcloak told him, which didn't include anything about it depriving him of an afterlife whether that is actually true or not. He wasn't fussed about dying soon of old age before then; his anything-to-avoid-the-Big-Fire-Below line to Vaarsuvius was battle trash talk and nothing more.

NerdyKris

2016-04-21, 06:31 PM

Mandor

2016-04-23, 09:10 PM

Agreed. His trash talk was saying that he did it to stay powerful, not specifically to avoid the Abyss. He was saying that power meant so much to him that he became a lich rather than admit defeat. It wasn't done out of fear of the afterlife, but out of refusal to not be powerful.

Not sure about that. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html
Second to last panel.

Xykon: "Be Vampire, or a ghost, or an immortal with a paint-by-numbers portrait in the rec room. Hell, even a brain-in-a-jar, in a pinch. Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."
(bolding is mine)

Chives

2016-04-23, 09:12 PM

Of course we will! Watching the Snarl eat through the afterlife would be a great establishing shot- both to showcase the snarl's power, and to show how horrifying it really is! Putting Belkar there would heighten the tension further and make it more impactful for us!

Kish

2016-04-24, 07:56 AM

Not sure about that. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html
Second to last panel.

Xykon: "Be Vampire, or a ghost, or an immortal with a paint-by-numbers portrait in the rec room. Hell, even a brain-in-a-jar, in a pinch. Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."
(bolding is mine)
Yes, he was implying that not becoming immortal showed weakness. My point is that anyone who's read Start of Darkness knows that the associated implication (that Xykon sought out being a lich because he was too tough and clever to let himself die) is a lie, that if Redcloak hadn't shoved "I can turn you into a lich--no, not a leech, a type of undead creature, no, not a zombie, you'd still have your mind and all your magic"--under his nose Xykon would probably be dead of old age now.

Captain Raveman

2016-05-06, 09:05 PM

It might be neat to see an evil afterlife in the comic. Belkar's most likely going to the Abyss, though perhaps by the time he dies it'll be to Pandemonium instead.

RossN

2016-05-07, 04:13 PM

I don't understand why people seem to think Belkar will end up kicking all sorts of butt in the Chaotic Evil afterlife, if he ends up there. Sure he is a mook killing machine and I am sure there are plenty of mooks down there but his track record against villains of similar level is not exactly stellar. I think it far more likely he'd be squashed into paste by someone nastier, stronger ir smarter (or all three.)

Now as it happens I think he won't end up in such an afterlife. It seems far more likely he'll die redeemed or at least quasi-redeemed (unfortunately - I personally don't think a few good deeds are enough to make up for some of the truly horrific deeds he's done.)

Peelee

2016-05-07, 04:15 PM

Especially since one of the big themes of this comic is "evil really isn't cool, guys."

Ruck

2016-05-07, 04:24 PM

I've been envisioning a scenario like this:

Belkar dies saving Durkon, O-Chul, the whole Order, or in some similar fashion that makes it clear he's sacrificing his life for the team's / to save the world.

He gets to the Chaotic Evil afterlife, and meets whatever the CE equivalent of a Deva is for processing:

Deva: The Belkster! Death's Little Helper! So great to finally see you. We're big fans of your work, you know.
Belkar: Really?
D: Oh sure, sure. Few people have your penchant for unprovoked, whimsical killing. You'll fit in just fine here.
B: Well, I can't wait to get started, heh-heh.
D: I've just gotta review your file. I expect this to be a formality... Oh. Huh.
B: What is it?
D: It says here you died... sacrificing your life for your adventuring party... led by a Lawful Good fighter on a quest to stop the world from being conquered by a Chaotic Evil villain.
B: *blank stare*
*beat*
B: I'll just go over to the Chaotic Neutral afterlife, then...
D: I think that would be best.

Peelee

2016-05-07, 04:31 PM

Ruck

2016-05-07, 05:07 PM

Yeah, pretty sure a Chaotic Evil afterlife won't have a gate at the door to check credentials, or a clerical position making sure they are sorted right. Probably just fall into the Abyss, or wherever they go.

At least one of the directors of the IFCC has an inbox. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html) (Possibly the Lawful one, but I'm not sure which is which.)

Also, I'm pretty sure a Chaotic Evil afterlife will have whatever Rich wants it to have.

dancrilis

2016-05-07, 05:32 PM

You have yet to supply a convincing argument for why in the hell the Oracle would mess with people supplying fake prophecies when they will literally forget it the instant they leave the valley. Seriously. That is the ultimate exercise in futility...

Not weighing on on the argument, but the above is spoken as if you have never screwed with anyone for your own personal temporary amusement despite knowing that it won't affect anything.

Personally when I screw with people for my own personal temporary amusement I prefer to do it when I know it won't affect anything.

georgie_leech

2016-05-07, 05:55 PM

ChillerInstinct

2016-05-07, 09:30 PM

Not weighing on on the argument, but the above is spoken as if you have never screwed with anyone for your own personal temporary amusement despite knowing that it won't affect anything.

Personally when I screw with people for my own personal temporary amusement I prefer to do it when I know it won't affect anything.

Thing is, it'll affect one VERY important thing. One important thing that's directly, if not ONLY, important to the Oracle:

His reputation.

If it EVER came out that he wasn't on the level, the results would be DEVASTATING. When people are paying out the nose to know the future, they NEED to know that what they're getting is true (even if it's only literally true). Even one case of falsehoods would bring his entire livelihood crashing down around him. And you've got to remember, it's not the person who is predicted to die who got the prediction: it was a Lawful Good person who, more than likely, has got decades more living left in him and would probably LOVE to get back at him by exposing him as a con artist if given the ammunition to do so.

The Oracle can get away with being strictly literal, doing self-fulfilling prophecies, and all other sorts of trickery, but it's safe to assume that lying is right out.

Seto

2016-05-08, 05:48 AM

At least one of the directors of the IFCC has an inbox. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html) (Possibly the Lawful one, but I'm not sure which is which.)

The yellow one (who has an inbox) is Director Lee, he's the Demon. The purple one is Nero, he's the Daemon. The orange one is the Devil Cedrik.

dancrilis

2016-05-08, 10:17 AM

Thing is, it'll affect one VERY important thing. One important thing that's directly, if not ONLY, important to the Oracle:

His reputation.

If it EVER came out that he wasn't on the level, the results would be DEVASTATING. When people are paying out the nose to know the future, they NEED to know that what they're getting is true (even if it's only literally true). Even one case of falsehoods would bring his entire livelihood crashing down around him. And you've got to remember, it's not the person who is predicted to die who got the prediction: it was a Lawful Good person who, more than likely, has got decades more living left in him and would probably LOVE to get back at him by exposing him as a con artist if given the ammunition to do so.

The Oracle can get away with being strictly literal, doing self-fulfilling prophecies, and all other sorts of trickery, but it's safe to assume that lying is right out.

To use xkcd.
https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/a-minus-minus.png
Alt Text: You can do this one in every 30 times and still have 97% positive feedback.

Ruck

2016-05-08, 06:18 PM

The yellow one (who has an inbox) is Director Lee, he's the Demon. The purple one is Nero, he's the Daemon. The orange one is the Devil Cedrik.

It does make the most sense that the Lawful one would have an inbox. (Also, I figured that was likely the Lawful one because his inbox was filling up with Empire of Blood soldiers, whom I'd expect to be LE by profession at the least.)

In any case, I don't think we can say anything definite about the Chaotic Evil afterlife in OOTS-world.

Seto

2016-05-09, 03:16 AM

It does make the most sense that the Lawful one would have an inbox. (Also, I figured that was likely the Lawful one because his inbox was filling up with Empire of Blood soldiers, whom I'd expect to be LE by profession at the least.)

In any case, I don't think we can say anything definite about the Chaotic Evil afterlife in OOTS-world.

Oh yeah, good point about the soldiers. There seems to be a lot of Chaotic ones. Given their position, though (the Fiends', not the soldiers'), I'd expect all three of them to have an inbox. (Plus, by word of Rich, Lee is a "slightly less Chaotic Demon", so if someone among Demons takes care of their responsibilities, that's him.) His inbox does seem messy, though. Maybe Cedrik has several smaller boxes where the deceased are automatically sorted depending on degree of Evilness, degree of Lawfulness and geographic origin, who knows. :smallsmile:

I agree about not knowing about the CE afterlife. Maybe we could dig up some of the Giant's comments about afterlives, but I'm not sure he touched on the Abyss.

Peelee

2016-05-09, 12:26 PM

Not weighing on on the argument, but the above is spoken as if you have never screwed with anyone for your own personal temporary amusement despite knowing that it won't affect anything.

Personally when I screw with people for my own personal temporary amusement I prefer to do it when I know it won't affect anything.

Not at all. I'm speaking as if I've never screwed with anyone for my own personal temporary amusement where the person getting screwed with has no notable reaction in any way, yet continuing to keep up the ruse. Belkar, for the most part, doesn't know about it, and for the couple of minutes he did when the Oracle first told him, the little dude was mildly perturbed at best.

If it's for meaningless, incredibly short-lived self-satisfaction, I'm rather unimpressed by how little self-satisfaction could be gleaned from that. Not to mention that any reference to it in Belkar's absence would defeat the whole purpose of even that meager bit of self-amusement.

KorvinStarmast

2016-05-10, 07:35 AM

In strips 132 and 133, Belkar multiclasses into Barbarian. (A one level dip?) This opens the door for Belkar's afterlife to take place in a Barbarian setting. He has lived up to the highest Barbarian standards when it comes to battle and slaughter (the Sexy Shoeless God of War episode in and around Azure City was nearly Conanesque, what with the pile of enemy bodies he stood atop of, and his reprise at the thieves guild was a worthy effort).

He will be well received by whomever (or whatever) Barbarians hold as sacred. Heck, he'd fit right in to Valhalla if there's an opening there ...

Peelee

2016-05-10, 08:14 AM

I was not aware that each class had its own afterlives.

Conradine

2016-05-13, 05:49 PM

Well, since Hell and Abyss exists in this world, I guess Belkar will go straight in the Big Fire Below that even Xykon fears.

RatElemental

2016-05-14, 01:32 AM

wumpus

2016-05-18, 12:44 PM

I was not aware that each class had its own afterlives.

If I saw it in the comic I would assume it to be a D&D joke on how class centric the game is. On the other hand, I suspect that Paladins at least have their own afterlife. Had Miko managed to keep her grip on her Paladinhood up until her death she would have been guaranteed a slot in Celestia (the absolute corner of LGness) however much she may have been just on the good side of LN (I continue to maintain that Arcadia is perfect for not only Miko's life (she must have fallen right over the LN border, but still had to be on the LG side of LN) but her afterlife as well (it has swarms of vigilantes hunting evil, which fit her to a "T").

I don't think anyone but paladins really have their own class-based afterlife. Although any plane might have roles that fit some classes far better than others (rangers being an obvious one).

Bulldog Psion

2016-05-19, 08:04 AM

If I saw it in the comic I would assume it to be a D&D joke on how class centric the game is. On the other hand, I suspect that Paladins at least have their own afterlife. Had Miko managed to keep her grip on her Paladinhood up until her death she would have been guaranteed a slot in Celestia (the absolute corner of LGness) however much she may have been just on the good side of LN (I continue to maintain that Arcadia is perfect for not only Miko's life (she must have fallen right over the LN border, but still had to be on the LG side of LN) but her afterlife as well (it has swarms of vigilantes hunting evil, which fit her to a "T").

I don't think anyone but paladins really have their own class-based afterlife. Although any plane might have roles that fit some classes far better than others (rangers being an obvious one).

I'd say they show up on the mountain, just a bit higher up than most. Also, since most of them are fanatics, they probably concentrate on reaching the summit rather than stopping off for infinite one-night stands or visiting with relatives. Thus, they probably interact with the other denizens a lot less.