Jarlhen
2016-02-20, 01:24 AM
First off, this might be a lengthy rambling of a post. Sorry.
Essentially I may eventually be making a character around level 8. For the sake of discussion we're going to assume 20 strength as it's reasonable under our system at this level. Charisma might be 16-20, depends. No magical weapons or armor to start with. The idea is paladin 2/sorc 6. Dragon sorcerer, which is becoming quite popular now with SCAG. This is going to be relatively simple and shallow and I won't be thinking too much about other options. But I'm absolutely more than happy if someone wants to add in their own suggestions. Also I've highlighted my direct questions just so they're easier to pick out!
Why?
I like consistency. This combo is also attractive because of the high nova you can fart out. But let's start with looking at the basic stuff.
At level 8 you have 1 standard attack. The option is between GWF and duelist. We're going with the latter for now and discuss the former further down. Numbers do not include crits.
1st atk: 1d8+7=min 8-15. Nothing impressive. But you're a sorcerer so:
1st atk: 1d8+7+GFB 1d8+3(elemental affinity)=12-26
Another option:
1st atk: 1d8+7+1d8+3=12-26
Haste: 1d8+7=8-15
That's a small bump at 20-41 damage. Plus you get all the other benefits of haste.
If we compare either of these to a standard paladin they would get:
1st atk: 1d8+7=8-15
2nd atk: 1d8+7=8-15 Total of 16-30
Haste 3rd atk: 1d8+7=8-15, total 24-45.
If you grabbed GFB or BB from other sources that would have you lose your 2nd attack so you'd end up at the same level as the multiclass.
One of the big benefits here is the smite potential. With 1 extra attack that means a standard paladin can smite 1 extra time. Obviously good. But, the multiclass gets the opportunity to actually do 4 attacks in one round as such: Haste+twinned booming blade+quickened GFB. To my understanding this would work. It states you can cast 1 metamagic effect on a spell when you cast it. Turn GFB into a bonus action and that frees up your regular action for a twinned booming blade. Of course, this is very limited as at that level you can do it twice per day and the second booming blade hits another creature. But still, that's 3-4 atks with smite capability for some great nova. I'm not saying it's better than paladin, I'm saying it shortens the gap.
You can't cast a spell on your haste attack so the damage would always be 1d8+7. So 3 times per day you could knock out 24-51 damage spread over two attacks. That's without smite. The paladin doesn't really have anything similar in the sense of a resource spent in this way. The only other thing I can think of is Oath of Vengeance giving you advantage when you channel divinity? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Does the simplistic math add up? I realize I'm not including a lot of spells and other factors here. At lvl 8 paladins would have access to level 2 spells. The sorcerer would have access to different spells (and more slots) but they'd be caster level 7. It states that you can change sorcerer spells when you go up in level. When you hit lvl 6 you'd technically be caster 7 meaning lvl 4 spells. Could you change/learn a level 4 sorcerer spell once you hit level 6 then? Either way you could pop a lvl 4 smite!
Great Weapon vs Duelist.
I've thought a lot about this and essentially running GWF over Duelist might be slightly better in terms of average damage output. But the minimum damage would actually go down on account of 2d6 can still roll 2 1's on the second roll which means you're losing 1 point to duelist. But on average I suspect GWF would come out slightly ahead. Specially if you crit! But the fighting style in itself I'm not sure is worth it over +2 ac and +2 guaranteed damage. I think it would be a fair trade for sure, but not a given.
The big question is the great weapon master feat. It gives you 1 bonus action attack if you crit or kill an enemy. However, it's an attack so it would be without the cantrip damage. It's nice for sure, but not a huge selling point either. The big thing is of course the -5 to hit/+10 damage. And I asked this in another thread and there were some paladin spells that could bump up your hit. But I'd argue they were unreliable. Like bless, 1d4, great if you don't roll a 1. Add magic weapons and stuff and you'll probably end up at around the same level of +hit you'd have at this level. But the question is if it's worth it? I'm not convinced yet that this is reliable damage.. So if we run pal 2/sorc 6 what can be done to improve the chances of landing a GWM hit?
Now if we go duelist we're probably going to have to grab the warcaster feat. And we'll need the ASI so combining warcaster and GWM for the versatility is unlikely. It's going to be one or the other at best. So which one is most likely to be used frequently?
And finally, paladin level 6 is friggin' hot as frick. Assuming high charisma. The question would be, would you consider it worth going paladin 6/sorcerer X? There are also a lot of spell synergies or lack thereof to consider. Specially concentration spells as bless, various smite spells, shield of faith, and many others are all conc.
And just to clarify, I'm not saying this is better than paladin. Not at all. I'm simply investigating the concept. I love pondering these things and I love hearing what others have to say and where I've gone wrong. Would appreciate some thoughts.
ETA: My math was way off. I messed up GFB damage and forgot elemental affinity is charisma and used the strength stat instead.
ETA2: The math REALLY didn't add up.
ETA: I had my spells all mixed up and my reading comprehension failed me. Think I'll leave this concept behind for now. Thanks for all the corrections.
Essentially I may eventually be making a character around level 8. For the sake of discussion we're going to assume 20 strength as it's reasonable under our system at this level. Charisma might be 16-20, depends. No magical weapons or armor to start with. The idea is paladin 2/sorc 6. Dragon sorcerer, which is becoming quite popular now with SCAG. This is going to be relatively simple and shallow and I won't be thinking too much about other options. But I'm absolutely more than happy if someone wants to add in their own suggestions. Also I've highlighted my direct questions just so they're easier to pick out!
Why?
I like consistency. This combo is also attractive because of the high nova you can fart out. But let's start with looking at the basic stuff.
At level 8 you have 1 standard attack. The option is between GWF and duelist. We're going with the latter for now and discuss the former further down. Numbers do not include crits.
1st atk: 1d8+7=min 8-15. Nothing impressive. But you're a sorcerer so:
1st atk: 1d8+7+GFB 1d8+3(elemental affinity)=12-26
Another option:
1st atk: 1d8+7+1d8+3=12-26
Haste: 1d8+7=8-15
That's a small bump at 20-41 damage. Plus you get all the other benefits of haste.
If we compare either of these to a standard paladin they would get:
1st atk: 1d8+7=8-15
2nd atk: 1d8+7=8-15 Total of 16-30
Haste 3rd atk: 1d8+7=8-15, total 24-45.
If you grabbed GFB or BB from other sources that would have you lose your 2nd attack so you'd end up at the same level as the multiclass.
One of the big benefits here is the smite potential. With 1 extra attack that means a standard paladin can smite 1 extra time. Obviously good. But, the multiclass gets the opportunity to actually do 4 attacks in one round as such: Haste+twinned booming blade+quickened GFB. To my understanding this would work. It states you can cast 1 metamagic effect on a spell when you cast it. Turn GFB into a bonus action and that frees up your regular action for a twinned booming blade. Of course, this is very limited as at that level you can do it twice per day and the second booming blade hits another creature. But still, that's 3-4 atks with smite capability for some great nova. I'm not saying it's better than paladin, I'm saying it shortens the gap.
You can't cast a spell on your haste attack so the damage would always be 1d8+7. So 3 times per day you could knock out 24-51 damage spread over two attacks. That's without smite. The paladin doesn't really have anything similar in the sense of a resource spent in this way. The only other thing I can think of is Oath of Vengeance giving you advantage when you channel divinity? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Does the simplistic math add up? I realize I'm not including a lot of spells and other factors here. At lvl 8 paladins would have access to level 2 spells. The sorcerer would have access to different spells (and more slots) but they'd be caster level 7. It states that you can change sorcerer spells when you go up in level. When you hit lvl 6 you'd technically be caster 7 meaning lvl 4 spells. Could you change/learn a level 4 sorcerer spell once you hit level 6 then? Either way you could pop a lvl 4 smite!
Great Weapon vs Duelist.
I've thought a lot about this and essentially running GWF over Duelist might be slightly better in terms of average damage output. But the minimum damage would actually go down on account of 2d6 can still roll 2 1's on the second roll which means you're losing 1 point to duelist. But on average I suspect GWF would come out slightly ahead. Specially if you crit! But the fighting style in itself I'm not sure is worth it over +2 ac and +2 guaranteed damage. I think it would be a fair trade for sure, but not a given.
The big question is the great weapon master feat. It gives you 1 bonus action attack if you crit or kill an enemy. However, it's an attack so it would be without the cantrip damage. It's nice for sure, but not a huge selling point either. The big thing is of course the -5 to hit/+10 damage. And I asked this in another thread and there were some paladin spells that could bump up your hit. But I'd argue they were unreliable. Like bless, 1d4, great if you don't roll a 1. Add magic weapons and stuff and you'll probably end up at around the same level of +hit you'd have at this level. But the question is if it's worth it? I'm not convinced yet that this is reliable damage.. So if we run pal 2/sorc 6 what can be done to improve the chances of landing a GWM hit?
Now if we go duelist we're probably going to have to grab the warcaster feat. And we'll need the ASI so combining warcaster and GWM for the versatility is unlikely. It's going to be one or the other at best. So which one is most likely to be used frequently?
And finally, paladin level 6 is friggin' hot as frick. Assuming high charisma. The question would be, would you consider it worth going paladin 6/sorcerer X? There are also a lot of spell synergies or lack thereof to consider. Specially concentration spells as bless, various smite spells, shield of faith, and many others are all conc.
And just to clarify, I'm not saying this is better than paladin. Not at all. I'm simply investigating the concept. I love pondering these things and I love hearing what others have to say and where I've gone wrong. Would appreciate some thoughts.
ETA: My math was way off. I messed up GFB damage and forgot elemental affinity is charisma and used the strength stat instead.
ETA2: The math REALLY didn't add up.
ETA: I had my spells all mixed up and my reading comprehension failed me. Think I'll leave this concept behind for now. Thanks for all the corrections.