Wielding Small Greatswords for Profit

[Beheld]

Let's begin with some rules quotes:


If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls.


This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.


Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder.
...
Inappropriately Sized Weapons
A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

Small Greatswords remain Two Handed Melee weapons even when you wield them one handed by a Medium Character. Power attack says that if you attack with a two handed weapon (at all, comma) or a one handed weapon in two hands, you gain +2 to Power attack for each point. Duel Wield a small and a tiny Greatsword for +2 Power attack on all your attacks.

Or Spirited Charge Pounce while dual wielding a small and tiny Lance.

Fun times are to be had by all.

[DrMotives]

Your quotes don't support your cheese at all, they explicitly say it doesn't work that way.

[Jormengand]

Speaking of, if you wield a nonfine 1-handed weapon or a nonfine nondiminutive light weapon, they're 2-handed weapons too. Not for you, mind, but they are 2-handed. However, because any weapon other than a colossal or gargantuan 2-handed weapon or a colossal 1-handed weapon is also a light weapon, you can't add the bonus to it in the first instance.

Of course, there are three things power attack could mean. One, that the weapon is two-handed or light for you. Two, that it is two-handed of light for a creature of the correct size category. Three, that the weapon is two-handed or light for any creature.

Of course, this gets even more complicated when you read the paragraph on double weapons.

[Beheld]

Your quotes don't support your cheese at all, they explicitly say it doesn't work that way.

Yes the rules do say what I say they are saying, that's why I posted them. If you are going to assert something like this at least make an argument so I know what you are trying to say.

The rules specifically say that a weapon is a Two Handed Weapon iff it would be two-handed for a wielder of the weapon's size category.


Of course, there are three things power attack could mean. One, that the weapon is two-handed or light for you. Two, that it is two-handed of light for a creature of the correct size category. Three, that the weapon is two-handed or light for any creature.

Except that it can't mean anything but the second one, because the rules for what is or is not a THW specifically say that a THW is one that needs to be wielded in two hands "by a character of the weapon’s size category" so weapons that are not two handed for their size category cannot be two handed weapons.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes the rules do say what I say they are saying, that's why I posted them. If you are going to assert something like this at least make an argument so I know what you are trying to say.

The rules specifically say that a weapon is a Two Handed Weapon iff it would be two-handed for a wielder of the weapon's size category.

That's the general rule for weapon size. The general rules assume that you're wielding a weapon of the appropriate size. However, this specific rule (which you quoted above) is what makes it dependent on the actual wielder rather than its intended wielder:

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

Specific trumps general.

[Jormengand]

Except that it can't mean anything but the second one, because the rules for what is or is not a THW specifically say that a THW is one that needs to be wielded in two hands "by a character of the weapon’s size category" so weapons that are not two handed for their size category cannot be two handed weapons.

But for you, the weapon isn't two-handed, so the feat could easily refer to whether it is a two-handed weapon when you wield it, which is a fair enough interpretation given that you are in fact wielding it.

EDIT: The other way you can think of this is that it really is two-handed, but you treat the weapon as one-handed (including for the power attack feat) when you wield it.

[DrMotives]

As you quoted, the small greatsword used by a medium character isn't a THW at all. You bolded the parts that don't support your position. Per "Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons", a small greatsword is a THW for a small character. Per "Weapon Size" that sword is now altered for the medium user into a one-handed weapon. Congrats, you have a funny-shaped long sword that has a -2 penalty to hit, but does 1d10 damage. Hooray.


The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or twohanded weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For instance, a Small greatsword (a two-handed weapon for a Small creature) is considered a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, or a light weapon for a Large creature. Conversely, a Large dagger (a light weapon for a Large creature) is considered a one-handed weapon for a Medium creature, or a two-handed weapon for a Small creature. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

That's the rest of the section on weapon size you decided not to quote because it contradicts what you said. Bolded the part that uses your exact example and comes to the opposite conclusion.

[Beheld]

As you quoted, the small greatsword used by a medium character isn't a THW at all. You bolded the parts that don't support your position. Per "Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons", a small greatsword is a THW for a small character. Per "Weapon Size" that sword is now altered for the medium user into a one-handed weapon. Congrats, you have a funny-shaped long sword that has a -2 penalty to hit, but does 1d10 damage. Hooray.



That's the rest of the section on weapon size you decided not to quote because it contradicts what you said. Bolded the part that uses your exact example and comes to the opposite conclusion.

Being considered a one handed weapon for a particular wielder doesn't mean it stops being a two handed weapon, that is literally the entire point of quoting the actual rules on two handed weapons.

[Jormengand]

Being considered a one handed weapon for a particular wielder doesn't mean it stops being a two handed weapon, that is literally the entire point of quoting the actual rules on two handed weapons.

But if it's considered a one-handed weapon for you, then it's considered a one-handed weapon when you attack using power attack.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, you're reading this wrong, Beheld. The rules you quoted clearly indicate that its designation changes from two-handed to one-handed or light.

Edit: Also, let's assume you're right for a moment. What the TWF penalties for two-handed weapons?

[Beheld]

Edit: Also, let's assume you're right for a moment. What the TWF penalties for two-handed weapons?

Well there isn't one. There's a penalty if your off weapon isn't light, but there is not penalty at all if your primary is two handed, that's why Greatsword/Armor Spikes TWF exists.

[JNAProductions]

So what you're saying is that wielding two two-handed weapons in each hand is easier than wielding two light weapons in each hand?

Think that through, please. Did you do that? Did you notice that's it's really, really dumb?

[Beheld]

So what you're saying is that wielding two two-handed weapons in each hand is easier than wielding two light weapons in each hand?

Think that through, please. Did you do that? Did you notice that's it's really, really dumb?

No? What I'm saying is that the penalty for not wielding a light weapon in your offhand totally exists, and applies to two handed weapons and one handed non-light weapons equally.

So what you are really saying is "Are you saying it's equally as easy to wield a small greatsword in your right and and a small greatsword in your left hand as it is to wield two longswords one in each hand?" And my answer is... Yes, of course. That is what the rules say. (Except of course, that to wield a small greatsword you have to take a -2 penalty to attacks with a small greatsword.)

If you are upset that longsword shortsword is better than shortsword shortsword, take that up with the rules that already say that is the case.

Also, you realize that the Small Greatsword is basically the same size as a longsword, it even explicitly used to be a longsword for a medium sized person was a greatsword for a small sized person were identical weapons in 3.0, before the 3.5 weapon size rules that... aren't better.

[JNAProductions]

Well there isn't one. There's a penalty if your off weapon isn't light, but there is not penalty at all if your primary is two handed, that's why Greatsword/Armor Spikes TWF exists.

The bolded part was rather confusing, then. I thought you were saying there were NO PENALTIES, not no SPECIAL penalties.

[zergling.exe]

Or Spirited Charge Pounce while dual wielding a small and tiny Lance.

I'll let everyone else argue about the other part. I'll talk about this bit here.


Lance's only deal double damage on a charge if you are mounted, and there are only a handful of ways to get a mounted pounce. Cavalier in CW is one.
You don't need to wield smaller lances, as you can already dual wield your regular two-handed lance while on a mount.
If they would indeed be treated as two-handed weapons then you get the 2x bonus while dual wielding these lances.

So I think this means that mounted lancers are the best melee in the game, able to deal 2x the damage of any other two-handed fighter per attack with twice as many attacks.

[Tiri]

Lances only deal double damage on a charge if you are mounted, and there are only a handful of ways to get a mounted pounce. Cavalier in CW is one.

Actually, what Cavalier lets you do isn't exactly pounce. It lets you full attack after a move action, but explicitly forbids charges. It does let you deal extra damage when you do charge, though.

[Necroticplague]

Actually, what Cavalier lets you do isn't exactly pounce. It lets you full attack after a move action, but explicitly forbids charges. It does let you deal extra damage when you do charge, though.

Er, I don't think you can charge while on a mount and remain mounted normally. After all, the mount moves with it's actions, not yours. So your mount can charge, but I don't think you can.

[Tiri]

Er, I don't think you can charge while on a mount and remain mounted normally. After all, the mount moves with it's actions, not yours. So your mount can charge, but I don't think you can.

Well, the ability itself says: Deadly Charge (Ex): When mounted and using the charge action, a cavalier of 2nd level or higher may declare a "deadly charge" before making his attack roll (thus, a failed attack ruins the attempt).

Since it clearly states that the ability functions when the cavalier is using the charge action himself and mounted at the same time, it's clear that, at least, the writers of the class thought it was possible to charge while on a mount.

[Necroticplague]

Well, the ability itself says: Deadly Charge (Ex): When mounted and using the charge action, a cavalier of 2nd level or higher may declare a "deadly charge" before making his attack roll (thus, a failed attack ruins the attempt).

Since it clearly states that the ability functions when the cavalier is using the charge action himself and mounted at the same time, it's clear that, at least, the writers of the class thought it was possible to charge while on a mount.
And I'm saying I think those writers were wrong. Your mount can charge, then you can make an attack with the AC penalties and attack onus from charging, but you can't yourself charge while mounted.
Somewhat bafflingly, the rules that make this very clear are also immediately followed by a reference to charging while mounted. So apparently it's not just right hand and left hand not talking, it's the case of right thumb and right pointer not coordinating.

[Beheld]

The rules for mounted combat have always been terrible and nonsense. Everyone everywhere houserules them.

But the statement that the rules "If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge." "Clearly" say you aren't charging is silly. Maybe pounce is part of the bonus of charge, maybe not, who cares.

No one is ever going to use the mounted rules without houserules.

I mean, Ride By Attack literally can't even work unless you are in a very specific position relative to your enemy that makes up like 1/16th of the available area.

[fallensavior]

It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

Clearly, the rules indicate that weapons wielded by characters not of the weapon's size category are considered neither light, one-handed, nor two-handed.

Seriously though, just ask your DM. Be prepared for them to laugh at you for 20 to 30 minutes, but go ahead and ask.

[Beheld]

Seriously though, just ask your DM. Be prepared for them to laugh at you for 20 to 30 minutes, but go ahead and ask.

Sooo... you don't understand the concept of rules discussion?

[fallensavior]

Sooo... you don't understand the concept of rules discussion?

I understand that rules can be willfully misinterpreted both ways.

[tsj]

From what I understand about weapon sizes:

A greatsword is a 2D6 sword and is considered Large (2 handed) for a Medium charecter,
The same greatsword is still 2D6 and is considered Medium (1 handed) for a Large charecter,
The same greatsword is still 2D6 and is considered Light (1 handed) for a Huge charecter,

The same greatsword is still 2D6 and is considered too large to weild for a Small charecter,
unless you have the monkey grip feat in which case you can weild your "oversized" greatsword in two hands.


on the same note...

A Large greatsword is 3D6 and is considered Medium (1 handed) for a Huge charecter,
The same Large greatsword is still 3D6 and is considered Large (2 handed) for a Large charecter,
The same Large greatsword is still 3D6 and is considered too large to weild for a Medium charecter,
unless you have the monkey grip feat in which case you can weild your "oversized" greatsword in two hands.

The same Large greatsword is still 3D6 and is considered too large for a Small charecter, even with the monkeygrip feat!

a greatsword is normally used in two hands, that is why a (medium) greatsword is 2 handed for a medium charecter and
a large is 2 handed for a large charecter

if it were a longsword that is normally 1 handed :

A longsword is a 1D8 sword and is considered Medium (1 handed) for a Medium charecter,
The same longsword is still 1D8 and is considered Light (1 handed) for a Large charecter,
The same longsword is still 1D8 and is considered Very? Light (1 handed) for a Huge charecter,

on the same note...

A Large longsword is 2D6 and is considered Light (1 handed) for a Huge charecter,
The same Large longsword is still 2D6 and is considered Medium (1 handed) for a Large charecter,
The same Large longsword is still 2D6 and is considered Large (2 handed) for a Medium charecter

For a medium charecter a medium great sword and a large long sword is the same weapon