Is it ok to get bored with the OK group?

[Pinjata]

So, i'm in a canundrum, guys.

For past three or even more (10 when it comes to some players) years I have gamed with same two groups. Mostly guys aged 25-40, cool bunch, but ... sort of bland. They are cool. There is no drama. I know what to expect, i know who will take the initiative, i know who will deconstruct all the mental challenges, i know who will, even after 6th session still not know his character sheet. But, to tell the truth, I got a bit bored.

I remember "the old days" (i'm 35) when i gamed mostly with students and people new to the game. Heck, with girls too, as funny as that may sound, but this "4 optimizers meet at a table and kick ass" has lost some of its shine for me. If I DM, I want someone thinking what color clothes he/she wants and perhaps be a tad interested in a random NPC instead being all "That is surely a quest giver, that is at least CR 10 dragon, red, so Fire resistance and DR5/ magic, lets bring out our wands of frost".

With that said - and it may sound funny - I'm kind of scared of trying new groups. I'm tired to death of pissing contests and socially inept people ****ting my game. Just the other day i dropped into FLGS (haven't been there for years) and sort of got invited to try a new tabletop game. While most of the group was cool, there was one guy that totally flipped out after I stacked some cards in a wrong way twice. I'm REALLY REALLY tired of dealing with such types.

In about three months I'll end two campaigns I'm involved it and i have prepped (also via lots of help of you guys. thanks a lot :)) some really good material. I'm thinking of playing it with a new group.

What do you guys think of all this? Don't be too harsh please :)

Edit: ALL this goes for me as a DM OR me as a player.

[daremetoidareyo]

Yes. It's ok.


It sounds like you need to shake up your metagame. You should introduce new players to your old heads.

You should give out a rod of wonder...to a character that will use it.

You should DM while playing the role of a petty vindictive DM. Let your PCs have to battle an omniscient antagonist, who only needs to hear the PCs voice the things they would hate most to send such creatures after them. Cast yourself as the evil god hidden beyond the "fourth wall." Have a time Dragon explain that they are all fictitious constructs pilotted by monkeys from beyond the fourth wall. They need to find a way to control their "pilots," or what the dragons call "players", the reality warpers who have limited autonomy in the campaign who can locally disrupt "reality" or what the aboleth call " the game" by turning parts of the " dungeon masters" creations into a metaphysical construct called "Eck's Pee."

The "dungeon master" is an evil god who targets spell books, kills known family members, and builds impossibly elaborate traps, he switches known stat blocks, and unleashes unholy abominations into the world by a process known as "t'mplitt sta king" This evil god targets anything, even the gods themselves. The PCs must find a way the control their players beyond the fourth wall, but the PCs can only influence their players while the dungeon master watches them and tries to kill them and tempt them with greater reality disruption fuel.

Give those metagamers something to figure that all out. One way to stop the dungeon master is to die off in the world. Another is to break the 4th wall while the game is not in session to somehow defeat the DM in the real world. Offer to take over DMing? Bribe the dm with tickets to vegas? Really go bonkers on what you allow as a game move.

[hymer]

Some thoughts:
One thing you might try is to take it up with one or both groups. Tell them you're getting bored with the old routine, and find out if anyone would like to try something new. You may end up with a few who feel the same way, and maybe try and bring in two or so of the nicer ones you met at the FLGS to mix things up.
You could go for a different game you all want to give a try. Or shake things up within the game you usually play. Try E6 if you haven't. Try a political campaign, with an agreement not to break the skill system or play full casters, where the plans of the PCs usually won't move forward by overpowering bands of enemies.
Ask if any of your old gaming buddies have any ideas to shake things up. One of mine died never having played the TMNT game he wanted to try for decades, though mostly because he never actually got bored with the old routine. Maybe there's an old idea or system to be brought up.
There's also the possibility of taking a break. Try three months with no RPG, if that's socially possible, and see if you could do with a few more, or if you've gotten hungry again.

[Lacco]

Hey there, Pinjata!

I can feel for you - absolutely. Especially with the "approaching new tables"-phobia. Got the same. After gaming with wonderful bunch of people for some years I wanted to widen my circle of players and the newbies were a catastrophe.

However, then I remembered our first games and told myself I should give them time...and the same lessons I received/I gave my players. I did and they were still something to behold...

I'll just pick the part that caught my interest the most:


I remember "the old days" (i'm 35) when i gamed mostly with students and people new to the game. Heck, with girls too, as funny as that may sound, but this "4 optimizers meet at a table and kick ass" has lost some of its shine for me. If I DM, I want someone thinking what color clothes he/she wants and perhaps be a tad interested in a random NPC instead being all "That is surely a quest giver, that is at least CR 10 dragon, red, so Fire resistance and DR5/ magic, lets bring out our wands of frost".

The "4 optimizers meet at a table and kick ass" would bore me to death :smallsmile:. And when I thought about the things that you wrote you want at table - my players regularly go shopping for clothes, have fancy dinners just because they were too long in wilderness, and always catch me unprepared by thinking about something I didn't think about... (e.g. "an astronomer? that sounds swell, how does he look like? and will he prepare me a horoscope...?").

My suggestions would be:

- communicate it to the group. Maybe they think you're completely content - they are not mind-readers. Or they shouldn't be. Maybe they would like to give something a try.

- switch to a system you never played (and they don't know), asking them to do just 3 games and then it's back to usual bussiness if they don't like it.

- propose that everyone switches to something they always wanted to play for 3 game sessions (e.g. CoC? Shadowrun?).

- use the advice from daremetodareyo - let's say they encounter a reddish dragon (not red...). It's not your standard issue fire-breather...

- try out diceless system or one that is more focused on roleplay.

If this were Shadowrun, I would say "go read Blackjack's guide to bitter gamemastering". Especially the part about downtime. However... go read it :smallsmile:. There is lot of good advice.

Other than that - I wish you luck.

[Pinjata]

my players regularly go shopping for clothes, have fancy dinners just because they were too long in wilderness, and always catch me unprepared by thinking about something I didn't think about... (e.g. "an astronomer? that sounds swell, how does he look like? and will he prepare me a horoscope...?").

This ENTIRE post is so on the spot. Thanks sooo much :)

[denthor]

here is the good news you get invited to other tables. I leave my name and number everywhere talk to the DM's never get a call back or an offer to sit down.

As far as you group you are running into player knowledge versus character knowledge.


Try something radical ask them how they know. If they can not come up with a reason the action is null and void.

fourth level characters running into a troll.


That is a troll break out the fire and oil. Why?

Players that what stops trolls regen ability. How do you know that?

We just do. Player knowledge not character knowledge.

Change what stops the regen make electric, cold anything but fire.

One of greatest thing I ever encountered was a white dragon with a cold fire shield. Cast fireball no effect cast a cold spell no effect. What now?

Your world you control the game change but be consistent about your change.

[Pinjata]

@denthor
I'm not looking for a war of DM vs players. In fact, 50% of the time i am not DM. I'm looking for different vibes and slowly feeling the terrain.

[Darth Ultron]

I too find it hard to get a new group or even just a new player.

Groups can be the worst. One of the things I hate is the ''buddy groupthink'' you get with people that are friends/gamers for a while. Like a recent game: Had the character ''Bob the Salesman. So Bob was some super uber over god character that pretended to be a salesman and..um...help the characters or, um, make funny jokes, or um, do any wild and crazy thing the DM wanted''. The whole group loved ''Bob'' and he showed up in every game, often every two hours or so. But to me, the new guy, Bob just ruined the game and broke the immersion.

And annoying people in general. I think back to the group that was all crazy as my dwarf fighter used a net. And they went on and on about how ''dwarves don't use nets''.

The only real thing you can do is to be picky. Only stick with groups you like. And best of all is to make your own groups. Get together just the good players. A good trick is to host the game, that gives you veto power over who can come to game.

[Lacco]

This ENTIRE post is so on the spot. Thanks sooo much :)

Thank you. The thing I wanted to say is - it definitely isn't 100% ok, so it's fine to get bored if they don't play what you would like - at least sometimes.

However, it took some time to accustom my players to think like that. It helped that most of them loved the idea from the start (e.g. the barbarians learning chess, our fencer always requesting a bath whenever she enters a pub, with the barbarian going to bathe second purely for hygienical purposes, the barbarian learning to use fork and knife just so he can freak out the second barbarian...)...

What I can suggest is: try to remind them of their armour being bloody, banged-up, their weapons having teeth and themselves having slept on the ground for few weeks. Ask them if they want to go to the public baths.

Even - try to get help from the GM. Ask him for "freeform" session (e.g. you are in town, nothing is attacking you, you have no quests, but lots of moneys to spend...). Get creative. Have fun.

Ask the PCs what/why/how they do. Try the "Theology" talk from Conan. Maybe they catch up.

If not... well, try to find a group that will like it. If you are from area with lots of people playing, it should be fine. And if you ever get to central europe, PM me - we'll think of something and I'm always looking forward to additions to my gaming table (especially the ones that really have to think whether they get the hydra sautee with white or black wine...) :smallsmile:.

[Fri]

The simplest solution is to try different system. Find something that's very different than what you usually play, but not too hard to learn, and have short adventures. See if the system kicks. If not, play your usual system or try another system.

[Pont]

Great post!

I have had the same problem as you. I have a regular group with old friends that I have known for 10-20 years (I am usually the DM). But with time, especially after the arrival of kids and time consuming jobs, I notice that the passion for really good roleplay has vanished. We still meet and have a good time, but its more just to see each other than to delve into character growth etc.

I knew that I wanted more out of my hobby, so I have now begun to play with two other groups with younger people. It has really been a good experience! In the year or so I have been a member of the groups there has been some substitutions, and things are different than I used to do them - and thats wonderful! I too was afraid of random idiots ruining the game, but if someone is a jerk - other people will see that too, and soon they are no longer part of the group.

Playing with new and younger players definately has changed my (gamer) life and the new creativity and energy has even spilled over to my original group, who now (maybe inspired by the tales of the other groups) actually play "better" now! :)

My advice is to seek new inspiration!

[Pinjata]

The simplest solution is to try different system.

Lol this is like THE WORST possible advice. Only thing that tops it is daremetoidareyos tsunami of passive aggression.

[Lacco]

Lol this is like THE WORST possible advice. Only thing that tops it is daremetoidareyos tsunami of passive aggression.

I wouldn't say testing a different system is wrong advice - it's one of the things that could actually help.

But don't just change the system, change also playstyle.

I would do a one-shot (or 3-session game) with new characters, however, either go for level-less system or just tell them they won't level/gain XP.

As I read your first post, I understood that the system is one of the things that indirectly bore you - it's predictable. They can optimize and thus you know what happens.

So you need to shake them a bit - and even daremetoidareyo's advice, though a bit extreme, has some truth behind it - open the old school rules. If there are no CRs they can't know if they can handle the dragon.

In different thread I got shocked when someone posted a reply " It isn't supposed to take "effort" and "teamwork" to beat level appropriate challenges. It's supposed to take 1/4 of your resources."

So yes, if they take the game as cRPG, this is fine. What I would do is - change the system for 3 games, asked the players to roll completely different characters (different from roleplaying point-of-view, e.g. my "silent & calm fencer" player rolled a "gambler & troublemaker lady-of-the-evening" in western one-shot and she had a blast), tell them that they will only have 3 games to have fun with these chars, throw out levels & level appropriate content and - this will be the worst thing - give them time to roleplay. Ideally - between them. I always found the festivals, campfire talks and even tavern fun to be good for roleplaying.

[JAL_1138]

Couple of things.

1) E6 will help keep power-levels and rampant optimization at bay, may be worth a try if you want to stick to 3.PF.

2) Someone mentioned Shadowrun earlier, and that gave me an idea. Play it like Shadowrun. Assume their characters are experienced adventurers relying on common knowledge (in adventuring circles anyway) about monsters. They've been around the block, so they do know to break out the acid when dealing with trolls, just like a competent Shadowrunner can ballpark the abilities and weaknesses of likely opponents. Remove that from your story expectations. The "quest-givers" are, in fact, Johnsons whose only function is to hire (and occasionally betray) the adventurers. The task might not be to go kill the monster, though. It might be to extract information, make deals, bribe officials, retrieve artifacts, extract a prisoner, persuade an individual to switch allegiances, solve problems in ways that bigger guns won't always work. (Diplomancy will need a fix, though.) They might need to hobnob with nobles, they might need to build relationships with outfitters who can supply them with the stuff they need to get the job done, they might need to keep the peace between competing adventurers' guilds. They might need to expressly avoid open combat with any ranking members of the organization they're up against, because it could start a war, or the retaliation would be bad enough that they'd have to go into hiding or flee the city, or some such. They have to engage other elements than "beat the monster's DR" if they want to get the best outcome, or even a non-disastrous outcome in some cases. They've got to be clever, they've got to engage, they've got to accomplish goals that don't just involve "go kill monsters."

Also, throw in time limits and decision points that affect mutually-exclusive goals. Give them decisions they can't just optimize for--if they do X, they can't do Y (unless they come up with something clever you hadn't accounted for but that would work), because there isn't time or because it will otherwise eliminate the opportunity.

[veti]

Actually, I agree with the "different system" idea.

I'm guessing you're currently playing D&D 3.x? That particular game is designed to be optimised to heck and beyond. It's a game where you can - and people do - actually work out their character's expected DPS with various attack modes, because everything is so well documented.

Take a look at Toon. Or Paranoia. Either of those would shake things up. Both systems make "optimisation" pretty much meaningless.

If you don't want to get that radical, or commit yourself to learning a whole different system - how about Munchkin? The whole group can master the rules in about ten minutes, and complete at least a couple of full games in a single session. It just might be enough to freshen some people's perspective on the usual game.

[daremetoidareyo]

Lol this is like THE WORST possible advice. Only thing that tops it is daremetoidareyos tsunami of passive aggression.

Passive aggression? I was being sincere. If the PCs get caught in a campaign that isn't as serious, with a weird transgressive tone, the entire games shifts away from their current optimization strategies. Designing this campaign to play this way also grants more permission that what these players will typically allow a DM. You can use the ancient ritual of t'mplitt Sta King on the fly to punish players who develop too much of a firey focus. Then the PCs need to figure out a way to make their PCs interact with the real world. Maybe force too many rolls in combat by summoning as many things as possible to jump attack free action sleight of hand to slow it down so the DM can't throw anymore evil creatures at them that session. Maybe a PC prays to his "player" to convince him to write things on the DM's notes. Maybe the party splits up, forcing the DM to focus on them while the other players talk amongst themselves to make a plan.

Meanwhile Perhaps the players will instead begin farming XP, having finally learned that XP is calculated by creature death. They literally become rabbit breeders and butchers. Get access to a ton of XP and hijinx, The evil dungeon master sends necromancers start raising all the dead rabbits and using them to protect the live rabbits.

I honestly think it sounds like you need a wildcard. And you can set up an incentive structure that appeals to them to become those wildcards. You can be a manic pixie dream DM and really set their inner Jim Careys free!

[ImNotTrevor]

Iacco36 suggests playing a different system as part of their post....

This ENTIRE post is so on the spot. Thanks sooo much :)


Fri suggests playing a different system as part of their post....

Lol this is like THE WORST possible advice. Only thing that tops it is daremetoidareyos tsunami of passive aggression.

Iacco36 ALSO suggested changing up standard encounters, but when Denthor says the same thing in a more detailed manner...

@denthor
I'm not looking for a war of DM vs players. In fact, 50% of the time i am not DM. I'm looking for different vibes and slowly feeling the terrain.

Bruh. BRUH. BRUUUUH.

Wut r u doin

[nedz]

When I faced similar issues I introduced a new player into the group - who had a different playstyle. It made DMing a bit harder, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but did change the vibe.

[Lacco]

2) Someone mentioned Shadowrun earlier, and that gave me an idea. Play it like Shadowrun. Assume their characters are experienced adventurers relying on common knowledge (in adventuring circles anyway) about monsters. They've been around the block, so they do know to break out the acid when dealing with trolls, just like a competent Shadowrunner can ballpark the abilities and weaknesses of likely opponents. Remove that from your story expectations. The "quest-givers" are, in fact, Johnsons whose only function is to hire (and occasionally betray) the adventurers. The task might not be to go kill the monster, though. It might be to extract information, make deals, bribe officials, retrieve artifacts, extract a prisoner, persuade an individual to switch allegiances, solve problems in ways that bigger guns won't always work. (Diplomancy will need a fix, though.) They might need to hobnob with nobles, they might need to build relationships with outfitters who can supply them with the stuff they need to get the job done, they might need to keep the peace between competing adventurers' guilds. They might need to expressly avoid open combat with any ranking members of the organization they're up against, because it could start a war, or the retaliation would be bad enough that they'd have to go into hiding or flee the city, or some such. They have to engage other elements than "beat the monster's DR" if they want to get the best outcome, or even a non-disastrous outcome in some cases. They've got to be clever, they've got to engage, they've got to accomplish goals that don't just involve "go kill monsters."

Also, throw in time limits and decision points that affect mutually-exclusive goals. Give them decisions they can't just optimize for--if they do X, they can't do Y (unless they come up with something clever you hadn't accounted for but that would work), because there isn't time or because it will otherwise eliminate the opportunity.

That would be me... :smallsmile:

This would help - I think. And yes, switch away from the "kill monsters" attitude.

Another idea that would help - they get message that they are needed in the city (a big questgiver with a big heroic quest will need them next week...directly at midnight at the cathedral.

Of course, they get to the city in two days.

...what do they do for the rest of the three days? My way would be to improvise whole city (ok, I prepare some inns, taverns, points of interest, but not whole city) and make non-fighting encounters.

The cutpurse at the market? They catch him, he surrenders.

The priests arguing over whose religion is better? They are best friends, but like to discuss religion - and PCs can join or leave them.

Let them stay there for 3 days. Tell them beforehand that they will have to "survive" 3 days. Switch to slow speed (e.g. you are "resting for the rest of the day? what are you specifically doing...? praying takes around hour. You memorized the whole spellbook. What now? You are boooooored. And there's whole city to explore). Disallow any rolling (e.g. I gather information about some questgivers? Weeeeeell...no. Where do you go? Who do you ask?).

Or - if you are not fine with improvising, prepare encounters - but non-lethal.

...most probably this will freak them out completely :smallsmile:


Iacco36 suggests playing a different system as part of their post....

Fri suggests playing a different system as part of their post....

Iacco36 ALSO suggested changing up standard encounters, but when Denthor says the same thing in a more detailed manner...

Bruh. BRUH. BRUUUUH.

Wut r u doin

I think it's standard marketing thing. It's not what you say, but how :smallsmile:


When I faced similar issues I introduced a new player into the group - who had a different playstyle. It made DMing a bit harder, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but did change the vibe.

Aaaaand this is golden idea. Find a player that plays the style you like. It can do miracles. I did it once when I GMed for a group of WOW players who only wanted to hit things and got quite bored because they didn't find magic ring in the wolf carcass. I took my best roleplayer, the guy who pulls you into the game with his roleplay. And miracles happened...

[Shackel]

\If this were Shadowrun, I would say "go read Blackjack's guide to bitter gamemastering"... There is lot of good advice.



...what do they do for the rest of the three days? My way would be to improvise whole city (ok, I prepare some inns, taverns, points of interest, but not whole city) and make non-fighting encounters.

Let them stay there for 3 days. Tell them beforehand that they will have to "survive" 3 days. Switch to slow speed (e.g. you are "resting for the rest of the day? what are you specifically doing...? praying takes around hour. You memorized the whole spellbook. What now? You are boooooored. And there's whole city to explore). Disallow any rolling (e.g. I gather information about some questgivers? Weeeeeell...no. Where do you go? Who do you ask?).

Or - if you are not fine with improvising, prepare encounters - but non-lethal.

90% of the time if you want to keep your players I would recommend not following the advice of antagonizing(Blackjack) or specifically going out of your way to aggressively bore your players. As someone who actually enjoys roleplaying as much as "rollplaying" this just sounds like a very easy way to get your players to have genuine hostility towards you being a DM.

[Lacco]

90% of the time if you want to keep your players I would recommend not following the advice of antagonizing(Blackjack) or specifically going out of your way to aggressively bore your players. As someone who actually enjoys roleplaying as much as "rollplaying" this just sounds like a very easy way to get your players to have genuine hostility towards you being a DM.

Of course, the advice from Blackjack has to be taken with a grain of salt (e.g. bovine bombardement/flaming bovine bombardement).

However, you are correct - better advice would be "Blackjack's corner" or to find the Blackjack page via web archive. I specifically loved the "Using the Toilet".

The question is - what would you recommend the OP with his trouble?

[Fri]

Lol this is like THE WORST possible advice. Only thing that tops it is daremetoidareyos tsunami of passive aggression.

O...kay? I'm not sure which part of my post can be considered the worst possible advice from the context of other posts here, but sure, whatever float your boat!

*Backs away slowly with arms upfront, keeping eye contact, before running the hell away*

[Airk]

Lol this is like THE WORST possible advice. Only thing that tops it is daremetoidareyos tsunami of passive aggression.

Uhm, yeah, WTF? Have you tried this? Why is it bad advice? It was certainly going to be my suggestion, as I have seen it, time and time again, mix up expectations and change the way groups play.

Why the vitriol?