E6 question

[Hurnn]

I'm starting an E-6 campaign soon and one player wants to play a binder and take improved binding, this bothers me as it feels like an attempt to circumvent the power level and intent of e 6 by taking a feat that gives you 4th level bindings. Am I wrong? I seek your collected wisdom in baking the decision to allow this or not.

[HunterOfJello]

Does normal E6 have 4th level spells in it or do they end at 3rd? I'm just curious.

[Inevitability]

Restrict the feat to level 6 if you're uncomfortable with the player taking it. Or perhaps state that he can take it: but only after an in-game quest to a forgotten library/temple/tomb where he can find tomes with information on how to bind higher-level vestiges.

[Cerefel]

Honestly for binder it's kind of a necessesary feat to stay competetive with other Tier 3s.

[Hecuba]

I've seen a fair bit of E6 examples where specific 4th level spells are allowed as capstones at 6. Something similar would be reasonable for Binder.

This method, however, generally require more adjudication: you need to be prepared to say no on a case-by-case basis.

[Necroticplague]

Are there any 4th level vestiges that would be particularly OP in an E6 game? I can't really think of any.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Does normal E6 have 4th level spells in it or do they end at 3rd? I'm just curious.

Generally speaking, they end at 3rd (since you need to be 7th level to cast 4th level spells, and E6 obviously caps at 6th level), though people often have some higher level stuff as 'epic spells'. I suppose there are a few ways to get access to higher level spells, but given that most of the point of E6 is stopping people from getting them, good luck getting those past your DM.

However, I'd say Improved Binding shouldn't really be a problem. Going up a vestige level isn't quite like going up a spell level - the new vestiges aren't objectively better than the ones you already had (for example, Zceryll is without a doubt the most powerful vestige, and she's only 6th level). There are some strong vestiges as level 4, but the only one that I'd think at all likely to be a problem is Tenebrous, mostly for the rebuking and divine feat shenanigans. I would allow it, but depending on how things work out you may wish to consider nerfing or banning Tenny.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Honestly for binder it's kind of a necessesary feat to stay competetive with other Tier 3s.
Honestly, kind of this. 4th level Vestiges aren't that bad, giving him things like (slightly limited) Tongues, becoming a second-rate Paladin (better smiting, inferior mount, no spells and less martial ability), a few defensive psionic powers, inferior Nauseating Breath, magic item crafting (spells and CL still required), a second-rate Healer (not even a cleric-- you get at-will healing but little else), Deeper Darkness/seeing through Darkness, and that 1 turn/5 rounds thing. They do make fun capstones, though. And don't forget that an E6 Binder will never get his second Vestige. Honestly, some of the 3rd levels are better-- look at Andromalius's rogue-plus schtick, or Focalor's save debuff/blinding breath combo.

[Hurnn]

actually after i read them and the at will healing was my biggest concern, so i will probably allow all but that vestige. thanks for the responces

[Beheld]

Yeah Binders without Improved Binding are... Kind of Terrible at levels 3-6. Improved Binding isn't making them much better, but to the extent that it makes them any better at all, you should allow it.

[Gnorman]

To be fair, even Buer's at-will healing isn't terribly broken, unless you really want to play up the resource-tracking portion of the game. It's just not efficient enough to use reliably in a combat scenario.

[Troacctid]

Buer is pretty weak by herself. If you bind her, you have no combat abilities at all. All you can do is cast Cure Minor Wounds at will or hit someone with your morningstar--not exactly the height of efficiency. You're basically a Dragon Shaman at that point.

[Crake]

Yeah, i gotta agree, buer is at all not an issue. As someone else said, tenebrous would likely be the biggest issue, but even then not really. I would highly recommend allowing a capstone feat that lets you bind 2 vestiges though, otherwise the binder player will have a hard time being useful in a variety of circumstances unless he can get the party to stop and wait for him to rebind, or he gets the expel vestige feat and sucks up the hit to his binding check.

[Grod_The_Giant]

or he gets the expel vestige feat and sucks up the hit to his binding check.
Which isn't terrible, honestly, since it just makes you roleplaying more.

[Beheld]

Yeah, i gotta agree, buer is at all not an issue. As someone else said, tenebrous would likely be the biggest issue, but even then not really. I would highly recommend allowing a capstone feat that lets you bind 2 vestiges though, otherwise the binder player will have a hard time being useful in a variety of circumstances unless he can get the party to stop and wait for him to rebind, or he gets the expel vestige feat and sucks up the hit to his binding check.

Even then, for absolutely no sane reason at all, that is limited to once per day.

[Sahleb]

Honestly, all binders take that feat. All normal binders would have EBL 8 at sixth level, so it seems pretty arbitrary for e6 binders not to.

I think you should just allow it.

[Zaq]

Does normal E6 have 4th level spells in it or do they end at 3rd? I'm just curious.

Depends on if you play "hard E6" or "soft E6." E6 is a set of houserules anyway, so it's all up to the GM/group in question.

When my group played E6, we played "hard E6" that said that anything that "normally" requires you to be level 7 or higher (4th level spells, as an example, but also things like book-standard magic items with a printed CL of 7 or higher) just didn't exist, or else they were so rare as to functionally not exist (and either way, they were out of the hands of PCs). Doesn't matter if your 6th level Beguiler has Versatile Spellcaster; you don't get 4th level spells out of that.

"Soft E6" takes more of a stance that you can't advance past 6th level, but that doesn't mean the rest of the game doesn't exist, so if you can somehow get access to higher-level stuff without actually going past 6 character levels, then you're free to use whatever you can get.

Naturally, since these are all houserules anyway, there's no RAW definition for "hard E6" or "soft E6," and there's obviously a spectrum in between them.

I don't think it would be OP to allow Improved Binding even in a hard E6 game, but naturally, it's up to the GM. (Though to be honest, even with Improved Binding, I wouldn't play a pure Binder in an E6 game unless I knew that I would be allowed to take a capstone feat to get 2 vestiges at once. But that's me.)

[Tvtyrant]

I tend to push E6 into a psuedo-E8, with fourth level spells and abilities showing up as epic powers and with the inclusion of rituals going out into sixth level spells/abilities. I would be fine with it if it is taken as an epic level feat.

[Gnorman]

I tend to push E6 into a psuedo-E8, with fourth level spells and abilities showing up as epic powers and with the inclusion of rituals going out into sixth level spells/abilities. I would be fine with it if it is taken as an epic level feat.

Yeah, as long as you're careful about keeping out some of the worst offenders (Polymorph, Black Tentacles, etc.) this works out just fine. And the likes of Teleport, Plane Shift, and Raise Dead as difficult but campaign-altering rituals is really cool too.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah, as long as you're careful about keeping out some of the worst offenders (Polymorph, Black Tentacles, etc.) this works out just fine. And the likes of Teleport, Plane Shift, and Raise Dead as difficult but campaign-altering rituals is really cool too.

Ugh, Solid Fog. No save, just lose on none-good fliers. 15d6 damage and in melee range, no questions asked.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah, i gotta agree, buer is at all not an issue. As someone else said, tenebrous would likely be the biggest issue, but even then not really. I would highly recommend allowing a capstone feat that lets you bind 2 vestiges though, otherwise the binder player will have a hard time being useful in a variety of circumstances unless he can get the party to stop and wait for him to rebind, or he gets the expel vestige feat and sucks up the hit to his binding check.

Ya, Extra Vestige or something as a Capstone would be nice for a Capstone, as all of the Core classes have a Capstone feat, weather its worth it or not is another matter entirely.

[Gnorman]

Ugh, Solid Fog. No save, just lose on none-good fliers. 15d6 damage and in melee range, no questions asked.

Solid Fog definitely falls into the "etc." category as one of the stronger 4th-level spells. Also perhaps Enervation, which can be just devastating in an E6 environment. Allowing them in my E6 Compendium was definitely an early mistake on my part.

[Tvtyrant]

Solid Fog definitely falls into the "etc." category as one of the stronger 4th-level spells. Also perhaps Enervation, which can be just devastating in an E6 environment. Allowing them in my E6 Compendium was definitely an early mistake on my part.


Yeah, I ran into that problem myself. My later iterations only allowed direct damage and none-combat spells.

Also Vampires are horrible in E6. Fragile instant death machines....

[Hamste]

Ugh, Solid Fog. No save, just lose on none-good fliers. 15d6 damage and in melee range, no questions asked.

Actually it is really hard to catch fliers in solid fog and even then most of the time it will not do damage. It is a conjuration spell which requires objects to be summoned somewhere they can be supported and specifically says they can't be summoned or created in a floating empty space. That means normally the max height you can get is 20 ft high with the cloud or 40ft if your DM allows you to turn it on its side.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Ugh, Solid Fog. No save, just lose on none-good fliers. 15d6 damage and in melee range, no questions asked.

Couldn't you just say the air isn't heavy enough to support the fog?
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The spell doesn't specify so it feels like something up to the DM.


Actually it is really hard to catch fliers in solid fog and even then most of the time it will not do damage. It is a conjuration spell which requires objects to be summoned somewhere they can be supported and specifically says they can't be summoned or created in a floating empty space. That means normally the max height you can get is 20 ft high with the cloud or 40ft if your DM allows you to turn it on its side.

The square isn't empty, it has air in it (a concept that DnD acknowledges with airless areas and the need to breath) so it really seems like a toss up. An example of a fog spell explicitly heavier than air is Cloudkill.

[Gnorman]

I think the point is that it's very effective against anything that isn't a "good flier"