Paladins - 20 CHA & No Feat or 18 CHA & Feat

[JumboWheat01]

You know, I think I like drafting up characters and their stories almost more than I do playing them. But a bit of an optimization question here, using a Human Variant, I would already get a "free feat," probably Resilience CON, but I wouldn't be able to cap off CHA and get another normal feat. Does the one less CHA mod hurt them all that much?

[Corran]

Optimization comes through the oaths. Different oaths favor different fighting styles, which in turn rely on different feats and/or stats. So there is no universal way to answer your question, it all boils down to which oath you chose (assuming single class paladin here). Generally though, in the majority of most builds (and paladin builds tend to follow that rule) there are 1 or 2 feats that are worth not pumping your primary or secondary stat.

Also, there are paladin builds for which it is very difficult to decide if 20 str and 18 cha is better than 18 str and 20 cha, or the other way around.

[MaxWilson]

Assuming you mean Paladin of Devotion because that's the best kind:

Go for Str 16, Cha 20, and multiple feats. Str 20 doesn't really do much for a sword-and-shield Paladin, and you get to use your Channel Divinity to add to your attack rolls anyway when you need it, plus Magic Weapon or Elemental Weapon if you need that too. +16 to hit by level 20 is plenty. It's not worth spending 2 ASIs boosting your Str to 20 for +18 to hit instead.

Your goal: Paladin 9, Sorcerer 9, Warlock 2.

[Talamare]

I personally favor 20 Cha and Feats
Str is a middlish dump stat

[Grod_The_Giant]

18 and a feat. Most feats offer much more than an ~5% bonus to a few rolls.

[TheRedTemplar]

I have a similar question: Right now I've got a Paladin 5/Sorcerer 3, and I'm wondering what direction to go in terms of ASI and Feats. Should I maximize his Strength, Charisma, Both, or get a few Feats? I've already taken Warcaster, and I'm thinking about taking Mobile (I traded for some Winged Boots recently, which give him a fly speed that Mobile could let him abuse) but I don't know what I should get or what I should take first.

[MaxWilson]

I have a similar question: Right now I've got a Paladin 5/Sorcerer 3, and I'm wondering what direction to go in terms of ASI and Feats. Should I maximize his Strength, Charisma, Both, or get a few Feats? I've already taken Warcaster, and I'm thinking about taking Mobile (I traded for some Winged Boots recently, which give him a fly speed that Mobile could let him abuse) but I don't know what I should get or what I should take first.

At this point I would max Charisma for the save bonuses. You probably would rather be a tank than a skirmisher; and Warcaster + Booming Blade makes you a good tank already. Plus, good old Extra Attack makes you good at grapple/prone, which combines well with Warcaster to let you still use a shield but also be able to Shield. You wind up with the ultimate defense combo for maximum tankability.

Add Sanctuary after grappling as desired.

[Friv]

18 and a feat. Most feats offer much more than an ~5% bonus to a few rolls.

Normally, I'd agree. But for a paladin, that +2 Charisma means:

*) One extra use of Divine Sense each day
*) One extra paladin spell option each day
*) +1 to the save DCs of your spells and divinity channels
*) +1 to all saving throws for you and anyone close to you
*) +1 use of Cleansing Touch to purge negative spells
*) For Oath of Devotion, +1 to attack rolls with your sacred weapon

All of that is in addition to the usual +1 to Charisma-based skills and saving throws. It's a lot of power stacked into one Ability.

[Talamare]

Normally, I'd agree. But for a paladin, that +2 Charisma means:

*) One extra use of Divine Sense each day
*) One extra paladin spell option each day
*) +1 to the save DCs of your spells and divinity channels
*) +1 to all saving throws for you and anyone close to you
*) +1 use of Cleansing Touch to purge negative spells
*) For Oath of Devotion, +1 to attack rolls with your sacred weapon

All of that is in addition to the usual +1 to Charisma-based skills and saving throws. It's a lot of power stacked into one Ability.

If there was a Feat that gave me +1 to all saves, I would probably get it on more than a few characters.

[MaxWilson]

Normally, I'd agree. But for a paladin, that +2 Charisma means:

*) One extra use of Divine Sense each day
*) One extra paladin spell option each day
*) +1 to the save DCs of your spells and divinity channels
*) +1 to all saving throws for you and anyone close to you
*) +1 use of Cleansing Touch to purge negative spells
*) For Oath of Devotion, +1 to attack rolls with your sacred weapon

All of that is in addition to the usual +1 to Charisma-based skills and saving throws. It's a lot of power stacked into one Ability.

That's why you take the ASIs to Charisma and leave Str alone.

Don't forget that Cha also boosts your Sorcerer and Warlock spells, if you've multiclassed.

[djreynolds]

You know, I think I like drafting up characters and their stories almost more than I do playing them. But a bit of an optimization question here, using a Human Variant, I would already get a "free feat," probably Resilience CON, but I wouldn't be able to cap off CHA and get another normal feat. Does the one less CHA mod hurt them all that much?

Is this a generic world, where we all have a cleric and our 5th guy is a bard? Is resilient con really that important, that early in your crime fighting career.

I'm unsure of its importance. A concentration check is half the damage, and advantage from war caster, or any advantage is said be +5, who really knows this.

What I do know is big damage is going to drop your spell anyhow from experience, and the little nicks your high charisma score should be enough if it is +4 or +5 and whatever you have, say 13 in con, for a plus 5 or 6 to your roll at 6th level.

But resilient con at first level is going to add only +2 and at 6th level it will be +3 plus to your concentration check plus your charisma bonus. So at 6th level maybe its a +8 or +9. What I'm saying is, resilient con can wait. It can wait to level 12.

What is important is landing your smite, strength and some obviously concentration spells are needed there.

And conserving your smites, having something to do that hurts the mooks so you can save your smites for someone more worthy, feat need here like sentinel or shield master or GWM will allow you to conserve smites and still hurt mooks. Allowing you to NOVA BBEGs, your job by the way.

Now unless your multiclass, you do not need all of the war caster feat, and unless your spell DC is maxed it may not be worth it to cast a spell on your reaction for an AoO, as you need these to smite. And Mr Corran has previously burst my Hold Person bubble a while back. And know one really knows how big advantage is worth when you take big damage.

So straight up paladin doesn't "need" war caster for advantage as big damage will ruin your concentration check anyhow, and who cares really, so you lost your Stone Skin or Protection from evil or Hunter's mark.

So max out strength and charisma pronto and then take resilient con later when it will really count and be big boon to you, like at 13th level when your proficiency is now +5. And if you can fit it in, an attack feat not related to your smite.

[miburo]

To OP: It depends. What feat are you considering? Also, what's your statline?

With a Variant Human and 27 Point Buy you can get 16 Str and Cha (e.g. Point Buy 15/10/13/8/10/15). If so I would use 4 ASIs for 20 Str/Cha, 1 for Resilient: Con (Assuming you put the 13 into Con), and then one more for your choice of nice feat. Say, Great Weapon Master, Shield Master, or Magic Initiate (for Eldritch Blast and Hex for non-Vengeance Paladins)

There are other times when 2 feats can help, e.g. Polearm Master + Sentinel combo. But it really depends on your character.

IMO Resilient: Con is not worth it for a Paladin unless you specifically have an odd Con score. Divine Grace makes up for it otherwise.

[Corran]

IMO Resilient: Con is not worth it for a Paladin unless you specifically have an odd Con score. Divine Grace makes up for it otherwise.
Resilient con is a must for OoV palys, and they better get it before haste.
Assuming point buy, you never should chance upon having an odd or even con score by accident (pardon, the powergamer in me took control :smallsmile:), you plan for it.

[CaptAl]

I'd say it depends on your concept. If you want to tank, Cha is more important than Str, IMO. If you want to max damage, well, Str and feats trump Cha.

[unwise]

To me, a weapon feat is pretty essential. Great Weapon and/or Polearm for offensive builds. Sentinel and/or Shield Mastery for defensive builds.

If I were defensive focused enough that I considered Cha over Str, then I would want Sentinel for sure.

[MeeposFire]

To me, a weapon feat is pretty essential. Great Weapon and/or Polearm for offensive builds. Sentinel and/or Shield Mastery for defensive builds.

If I were defensive focused enough that I considered Cha over Str, then I would want Sentinel for sure.

I like shield master as a potential way to help the entire group (assuming you have party members who can take advantage of it). Use shield master to knock an enemy over get your attacks in and then on their turns your allies can try to get their attacks in as well. Can be very effective and the defensive bonuses are the icing on the cake.

[TheRedTemplar]

I like shield master as a potential way to help the entire group (assuming you have party members who can take advantage of it). Use shield master to knock an enemy over get your attacks in and then on their turns your allies can try to get their attacks in as well. Can be very effective and the defensive bonuses are the icing on the cake.

I've got a question; for my S&B Paladorc I'm almost always using something for my bonus action, so would getting Shield Master be a waste of a feat or would the defensive boosts be worth it enough on it's own? I'm trying to figure out what feat I should take for my guy since I've got a ASI to use after maxing Charisma. I'm also considering Tough and Mobile, but I can't decide.

[Corran]

I've got a question; for my S&B Paladorc I'm almost always using something for my bonus action, so would getting Shield Master be a waste of a feat or would the defensive boosts be worth it enough on it's own? I'm trying to figure out what feat I should take for my guy since I've got a ASI to use after maxing Charisma. I'm also considering Tough and Mobile, but I can't decide.
Shield master is one of the best support options for a melee character. Its value is determined to a great extent by your party composition. If you have a lot of melee allies who hit hard, then shoving as a bonus action (and timing it preferably, so that you allies can hit before the enemy takes a turn to stand up) is one of the best uses of your bonus action. If your main dpr is in range, then shoving loses enough of its steam. Also notice that in order to use your bonus action to shove, means that you have to take the attack action in your turn, so if you are using cantrips such as BB or GFB with your action most of the time, then you better think twice about investing in shield master. Also notice that the 3rd benefit of the feat requires you to succeed on your saving throw, aura of protection plays its part in pumping your dex saves, but still, you might not use that benefit as often as you might want (meaning that when that dragon breath occurs, you will have to be very lucky with your dex save roll).

Out of curiosity, what uses of bonus action do you usually rely upon?

[TheRedTemplar]

Out of curiosity, what uses of bonus action do you usually rely upon?

Typically my actions are spent using the Attack action, so I normally use my bonus action to either quicken spells (such as Blur or GFB/BB), burn a spell slot to fuel more sorc points (which I do rarely, because most fights against my party last 1-3 turns) or just cast spells that have a casting time of one bonus action to begin with (like Misty Step or any of the various Smite spells). Occasionally, I do have a dead bonus action (i.e. I don't end up using it), but even then my Paladin's mount renders the bonus action shove of the Shield Master feat mostly moot.

For specifics, my DM has allowed me to use a Giant Constrictor Snake (GCS for short) as my Paladin's Mount. When the GCS hits an enemy with it's constrict attack, they are automatically grappled and restrained (and take 2d8+4 damage, but it's mostly for the former part) and can only escape it by wasting their action to make a DC:16 Athletics check or just killing the GCS. Additionally the GCS is of the Huge size, so it can use this on even gargantuan creatures, and combined with Plate Barding (that my DM has allowed me to give it) and the disadvantage imposed on those restrained by it, it can be harder to get off than you'd expect, and at the least it ends up wasting an enemies turn, while at the most whatever was restrained by the GCS is dead at the end of the round (if not from me, then from the TWF Champion Fighter or OoA Halfling Paladin). Additionally, my DM has allowed me the ability to deny enemies their ability to attack so long as I describe exactly how the GCS is preventing them from doing so (i.e. 'convince the DM why the BS isn't BS').

To-wit, the GCS allowed my party too, with a lot of improvising, backup from a Duergar Kingdom, charisma (persuasion/deception) checks and luck that would make Old Man Henderson proud, kill Themberchaud (for reference, an Adult Red Dragon) at level EIGHT. You can bet we felt good after that (however unlikely it was). We even named the GCS 'Monty V. Python' as a joke. But regardless, the point stands that even if I got to be able to use the bonus action shove, chances are the GCS or Druid (who is now turning into a GCS himself and summoning one via Conjure Animals) has it covered. So if I were to pick the feat, for me, the other two benefits would have to make up for it. Otherwise, I'd probably go with something else (maybe Tough or Mobile, but really it'd be a toss-up because I have no idea what I'd really need, per se).

[Mrmox42]

my DM has allowed me to use a Giant Constrictor Snake (GCS for short) as my Paladin's Mount.

That's a pretty cool (cold-blooded, actually) Mount. A very stylish way of entering battle, indeed :smallwink:

[MaxWilson]

If you've got a Giant Constrictor Snake for a mount, Shield Master is far less attractive than Mounted Combatant. Even if you already have Mounted Combatant, I would still go for Lucky before Shield Master. Paladorcs already have tons of great stuff to do with their bonus actions.

[Malifice]

18 and a feat. Most feats offer much more than an ~5% bonus to a few rolls.

The 20 cha over an 18 grants the Paladin and all allies within 30' of him +1 to every single saving throw they ever make.

Its like 5 cloaks of protection based on that alone.

Take the +2 to Cha.

Screw strength. Find a belt of 29 giant Strength. Then smash face.

[djreynolds]

An attack feat is basically something to have for paladin so he can conserve his spell slots and smites for when they are needed. And though I like resilient con, You should choose it later. I find at earlier levels your proficiency score is low and not as much of a boon as it is at say 8th or 12th level and that a maxed out charisma should, with a grain salt, should cover you as you hit 6th.

For me say with the 15/14/13/12/10/8 and a half elf, you can two 16s in str and con. 4th level and 8th are either going towards strength and charisma, or maybe a feat like GWM or sentinel or SM, etc, if your party can afford it. If you have a cleric and a bard casting bless and inspirtation grab GWM.

I just feel that if you select resilient con early, your attacks will be behind the curve for a long time and your damage output as well. It is a great feat, but concentration checks are half damage and you are wearing plate armor, anything getting through that much protection and whatever spell you have up is going to do major damage and you will fail that concetration check anyhow, especially at early levels.

But bumping up str and chr are a better choice early on, and an attack feat so you are not smiting everything, but saving them for the BBEG