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Aximili
2007-06-17, 04:29 PM
Ok, say you're a 5th level wizard. With the spell Fireball in your spellbook.

Now, say you suffer (for whatever reason) a -1 penalty to caster level for all fire spells. Are you still able to cast fireball, since it's a 3rd level spell for you?

adanedhel9
2007-06-17, 04:41 PM
Without knowing exactly where you got that penatly from, I couldn't say for sure. However, I would assume that it doesn't effect spell levels or spells per day at all, just variable effects due to caster level.

Saph
2007-06-17, 04:46 PM
Unless something that changes your caster level specifically says it increases/decreases your spells known or spells per day, it doesn't.

So a -1 to CL would just mean that your Fireball does 4d6 damage and is slightly less effective at getting through spell resistance. You're probably better off with Scorching Ray.

- Saph

sleeping fishy
2007-06-17, 04:47 PM
you can even reduce cl yourself, cast spells at cl1... "spellcaster level" is what matters for casting spells of level x, not just plain caster level.

Rad
2007-06-17, 04:50 PM
Unless something that changes your caster level specifically says it increases/decreases your spells known or spells per day, it doesn't.

So a -1 to CL would just mean that your Fireball does 4d6 damage and is slightly less effective at getting through spell resistance. You're probably better off with Scorching Ray.

- Saph

very true... a lot of CL enhancements would just be too good if it were not so.
Where are you getting the -1 from? Dragonlance Moon Magic?

MeklorIlavator
2007-06-17, 04:53 PM
Ok, say you're a 5th level wizard. With the spell Fireball in your spellbook.

Now, say you suffer (for whatever reason) a -1 penalty to caster level for all fire spells. Are you still able to cast fireball, since it's a 3rd level spell for you?

Yes, you just cast it at a lower level in terms of range and variables inside the spell.
For instance, with fireball the damage is 4d6(instead of the normal 5d6), and it has a max range of 560 ft.

(stupid people making me leave the Computer mid post)

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-06-17, 04:55 PM
you can even reduce cl yourself, cast spells at cl1... "spellcaster level" is what matters for casting spells of level x, not just plain caster level.
Voluntary reduction cannot make your caster level lower than the level you usually need to cast the spell.


You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

There is no direct statement about what happens when it is involuntarily reduced, but I would assume the same principles apply.

Matthew
2007-06-17, 09:25 PM
Oooh. Interesting Shhalahr. Never thought of that before. Good point and it makes sense as well.

Aximili
2007-08-09, 09:34 PM
Damn, I completely forgot about this thread (and I opened it =P). Hope I'm not raising the dead here, but I really wanted to discuss this.

For those who asked, I meant no CL penalty in particular, but the one that inspired my question was the Unseen Seer's penalty to certain schools. A a third level unseen seer who had only two previous levels of wizard would know 3rd level spells, but his caster level would be only 4 for certain schools.

But maybe a more usual example would be better. So, if a Fighter 1/Wizard 1 is delivered 1 negative level (let's say from some undead's attack). Along with a series of other penalties, he would "loose" 1 prepared spell of level 1 and would suffer a -1 penalty to caster level.
So, you are saying he could still cast his remaining spells even with a caster level of zero?

Quietus
2007-08-09, 09:43 PM
Damn, I completely forgot about this thread (and I opened it =P). Hope I'm not raising the dead here, but I really wanted to discuss this.

For those who asked, I meant no CL penalty in particular, but the one that inspired my question was the Unseen Seer's penalty to certain schools. A a third level unseen seer who had only two previous levels of wizard would know 3rd level spells, but his caster level would be only 4 for certain schools.

But maybe a more usual example would be better. So, if a Fighter 1/Wizard 1 is delivered 1 negative level (let's say from some undead's attack). Along with a series of other penalties, he would "loose" 1 prepared spell of level 1 and would suffer a -1 penalty to caster level.
So, you are saying he could still cast his remaining spells even with a caster level of zero?

No, he could not. Caster level of 0 means that you are unable to cast any spells.

adanedhel9
2007-08-09, 11:23 PM
So, if a Fighter 1/Wizard 1 is delivered 1 negative level (let's say from some undead's attack). Along with a series of other penalties, he would "loose" 1 prepared spell of level 1 and would suffer a -1 penalty to caster level.
So, you are saying he could still cast his remaining spells even with a caster level of zero?

Caster level and spell progression, while generally related, are not always linked. There are various instances (too tired to look them up at the moment, but Practiced Spellcaster comes to mind) where increasing caster level explicitly does not increase spell progression. I don't see why decreasing caster level should be any different.

So, my interpretation is: yes, he could continue to cast spells with a caster level of 0.

Whether the spells do anything or not is another story.

Jasdoif
2007-08-09, 11:45 PM
Let me requote what Shhalahr quoted.


You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

You have to choose a caster level that's high enough to cast the spell in question. If a caster level penalty prevents you from choosing a sufficient caster level, then you can't cast the spell.

JackMage666
2007-08-10, 01:15 AM
My understanding is that you have to have Minimum Caster Level to be able to cast said spell.
Another example is the Racial Substitution Levels for a Gnome Illusionist, who loses 1 CL from a certain school (Conjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation, I think), at level 1 for a different benefit (reduced level for certain illusion spells, I think). Meaning, his CL for School X (whichever was reduced), was 0, and he cannot even cast cantrips from that school until level 2 (when his CL is 2, or 1 for school X). And, yes, it says, that you cannot cast those spells.
So, I would assume if you has a CL penalty, you cannot cast spells that require a CL above what yours is now. I don't know if there are exactly RAW about this, but it makes sense that way.

Aximili
2007-08-12, 07:03 PM
Well, it's a pity that the RAW doesn't specify it, but having a minimum caster level for spells seems to be the way it was intended. So, now I'll know what to do.