Paladin of Devotion: the superior Great Weapon Master

[Foxhound438]

As the title says it. Now let me explain.

It would be foolish to assume you can find magic items as a blanket assumption, so here we'll assume none.

The Challenger

Paladin of Devotion has a neat, great, possibly game-breaking ability in sacred weapon. With bounded accuracy, a PC getting upwards of +19 to attack rolls (and potentially bless on themselves on top of that) is absolutely crazy. GWM to go down to a normal attack bonus for +10 damage is even better.

The Contended

Full-blown fighters have a suite of 4 attacks for their standard attack, meaning that +10 damage can bring you a loooooong way, if you manage to hit. When you have this many attacks, you can be fairly sure that you'll hit at least once, even with your -5 to attacks.

The Builds

Let's start with the paladin. As a Vuman you can start out with 16's in str and cha, and have a feat off the bat. GWM, here we are.

The chase DPR ability for a paladin is of course the Improved Divine Smite, adding a d8 to all of your attacks (that benefits from great weapon fighting style RAW, whether you like it or not, sage advice). The second thing that is unique(*) to paladins is the spell Elemental Weapon. When cast at a 7th level spell slot, this will give you +3 to attack rolls (better than bless) and +3d4 to damage rolls, in whatever type you like. Be careful, however, you need to cast this before your channel; E-weap specifies you target a non-magical weapon, and it becomes magical. Sacred Weap doesn't care if it's already magical, but if you use that first the weapon becomes magical from that. (And yes, those d4's get GWFS benefit too.) You may be looking at that and wondering, "where are you going to get 7th level slots from?"

That brings us to our secret weapon, the 8 levels of sorcerer (min would be 7 but you want all the ASI's you can get) for a 7th level spell slot.

Of course the benefits of this are two-fold: first, you get the objective of being here, spell slots. Second, back at Sorc-3, you grab Quicken, giving you a decent source of a third attack, being green-flame-blade, of course. I'm personally partial to booming blade in general, due to the damage type, but with 5 cantrips you can grab both. Green-flame is your go-to, because you're taking draconic sorc for the +charisma to damage, once per spell (**). That will also give you a bit of make up HP for having the smallest hit die available to a PC.

So in the end you have 5 ASI's to work with, and 4 should go straight into STR and CHA to make sure you're losing no net hit bonus when GWM'ing. The fifth should be war caster, since you really don't want to lose that 7th level elemental weapon. Points if you start sorc for con save proficiency, but losing heavy armor means you are getting hit more. You'll be getting a +7 to the saves thanks to Aura of Protection, but if that and advantage doesn't seem to be enough, taking Resilient Con would put you at a +12, and war caster on top gives advantage to the saves. Quicken saves us from needing a feat for consistent bonus action attacks, so there's a plus.



The fighter, on the other hand, is a lot simpler. You have 7 ASI's and only 1 power stat, so there's already a simplification. You don't need to start as a variant human to get the feat, so you have choices for your race. Additionally, you can pick up Polearm Master, giving yourself a 5th attack. Magic Initiate can also be great; taking either hex for damage or bless to make up about half the attack roll penalty are both fine options.

All three fighter archetypes can do a lot of good on their own, but Battle Master probably adds the most for this build, since Precision Attack can be used to boost an attack to hitting range 6 times per short rest (7 with the feat), meaning those fighters, with good resource conservation, can hit almost as often as the paladins (getting an average of +6.5 to the attack, as opposed to the paladin's +8).

for this example, our 7 ASI's will go to GWM, PAM, Magic Initiate (hex), Martial Adept, +4 Str, and +2 con (or whatever else).

The Math

So, in the end, our paladin can use a greatsword, get 3 attacks, all with 3d4 an a d8 tacked on, and one having another 3d8+5 thrown in, and of course, GWM damage. You end up with:

6d6(sword)+9d4(E-weap)+3d8(IDS)+3d8(GFB)+3*5(str)+3*10(GWM)+5(eleme ntal affinity)
average = 131.5 damage (***)

Of course you're burning Sorcery points like it's no one's business, but... that's fine. You convert a 2nd level slot (otherwise would be 3d8 from a smite) into the SP needed to quicken, dealing 2d6+4d8+3d4+20 from that attack alone.

Question for the crowd: Would it be going out on a limb to say it might generally be better to not GWM that swing? without it it's 48.33 average damage, so it would be more than a third of your total damage by a significant amount. You're also spending resources to get it, so maybe it's better to hit more often?

i'm going to say yes, rule of thumb, so 121.5 average.



The fighter will get 4 main attacks, and a 5th bonus action swing thanks to Polearm Master. As said above, you have Magic Initiate (hex) to give some extra DPR. You end up with:

4d10(glaive)+1d4(PAM)+5d6(hex)+25(str)+50(GWM).
Average = 124. (***)

Note that that's less damage than the Paladin, if the paladin GWM's the Green Flame, and has a lower accuracy. However, this doesn't account for the Fighter's 2 action surges, each of which gives another massive 106 damage on average. That's a lot, but let's take a second look at that paladin...

Paladin's smite can add another 5d8 per hit, the first 3 hits, and if you blow the 5th and 6th level slots too you get up to 6 hits of +5d8, when you really need to nuke. So 30d8 averages 157.5 damage. And unlike the fighter's action surge, if you miss an attack, you lose out on none of this amazing nukeage. That can (if you hit 6x in a row [doubtful]) go off in the same amount of time as the fighter's action surges, and then you still have some fuel for these with 3rd and 2nd level slots, although less devastaing. and the whole time you have a higher attack bonus.

So when Nukeage needs to be dropped, the paladin comes in at the very least, only a tiny bit behind the fighter, and that's being generous to the fighter.

Asterisk explanations

*not entirely unique, bard can steal it. Weaker for them, however, since they lose out on IDS.
** player's handbook errata clarifies that you only add to one damage roll per spell with the sorc's affinity. Unfortunitely this means we can't use E-weap to get it every attack, but it would apply to the first, unless your DM rationalizes that "it's not the spell doing damage, it's the melee attack", which is fair. 5 damage per day is small fish.
*** average damage for dice under Great Weapon Fighting Style:
d4:3
d6:4+1/6
d8:5.25
d10:6.3
d12:7+1/3

all calculated as: (Normal Average)+(Normal Average - 1.5)x(chance of rolling 1 or 2)

that's all a probability model.



TL;DR

the paladin with Elemental Weapon on a 7th level slot thanks to 8 levels of sorc does better damage than a fighter, if you build right. the fighter maybe can nuke better, but that's doubtful.

Thoughts?

as an aside, a greatsword for the fighter would do a bit less if you don't proc GWM's bonus attack, averaging 110 instead. If you give up the fighter's 4th attack and go the quicken route as the pally had to, you get the same number of attacks while you have points, and gain only 3d8, putting you at 125.75, but with weaker superiority dice (and potentially less, depending how far you take sorc) your accuracy falls even further behind the paladin's.

finally, never in all of this did I factor in the actual hit chance, but that's pretty easy to do on the fly, since there's no 1/turn effects you just multiply by your hit chance for either case, which will be 7.5% higher for the pally, optimal conditions for both.

[Pex]

By multiclassing you immediately disprove your point. You're not just a paladin of devotion.

[Talamare]

Just checking, Are we measuring Lv20 builds here?

[Corran]

GWM works well with barbarians and fighetrs, less so for OoV paladins, even less so for paladins of other oaths, and even less so for paladorcs. (I should really place somewhere the bladelocks but I have not looked into them in much detail to be 100% sure)

It's all about resource management and synergy of the features you have.

Moreover, any strategy that takes 2 rounds of prep (or 1 round with quicken I guess) and relies so heavily on resources, may dissapoint you in more ways than you think so. One more note is that if you are using elemental weapon with 7th level slots, then you know you are doing sth wrong.

Maybe I will give a second read this thread some time later and come back with a more detailed answer. It is just that talking continuously about paladorcs has got me bored right now.

[Foxhound438]

Just checking, Are we measuring Lv20 builds here?

yes, but fighter falls even further behind before then.

[Foxhound438]

It's all about resource management and synergy of the features you have.


obviously... you don't go full-out on the first two goblins you come across, you use it when it's needed. resource management is something a player does, not the build. any idiot can blow their 9th level spell slot on casting meteor swarm on one target.

also, how is entirely negating the drop in hit bonus not synergy of features?



Moreover, any strategy that takes 2 rounds of prep (or 1 round with quicken I guess) and relies so heavily on resources, may dissapoint you in more ways than you think so. One more note is that if you are using elemental weapon with 7th level slots, then you know you are doing sth wrong.

If you're primarily going paladin you're really not using a 7th level slot for much else, are you? what else would you do, fireball for 12d6? not much better. for resource management... see above.

[Corran]

obviously... you don't go full-out on the first two goblins you come across, you use it when it's needed. resource management is something a player does, not the build. any idiot can blow their 9th level spell slot on casting meteor swarm on one target.
Yes, the player is the one who manages the resources, but some builds are easier to manage, and other builds are trickier to manage, resource-wise. This build, and generally PVP-type of builds similar to this one, are nightmares as far as the management of resources is concerned. Sometimes you hold on tight to your resources waiting for that epic combat that actually does not happen, and other times you might find that epic combat waiting for you right in the next corner and you are out of resources. And that is how sometimes TPKs happen, because lets be honest, even the most experienced player will be prone to errors as far as managing this build correctly, unless ofc he has some indication of the encouters that will occur during the adventuring day, or unless he is playing at an easy mode campaign or one that features 1 fight per day.


also, how is entirely negating the drop in hit bonus not synergy of features? Correct, attack bonus plays well with GWM, and you indeed add a very decent flat bonus to your attacks. But at what cost? Leave aside the extra dice that you risk (elemental weapon, IDS, GFB) whenever you take the -5 penalty, as your attack bonus is prettu good. You must spend you first action in combat plus 2 sorcery points to prepare? That is huge opportunity cost. And you burn a 7th level slot (more on that below) and then you start burning your sp to quicken GFB, that will only get you so far. This is a PVP build. Throw it in an arena vs a big HD monster, and tell the character to give everything, give him 1-2 rounds to prepare, and enjoy the spectacle. Do you know what the power of this build is, suboptimal as it may be in my eyes. It is not that it uses GWM in an efficient way, far from it. It is that it has the power to burn through its resources very very fast. That can be a strength. Not every build can do it. The drawback is, that each one of these arbitrary resource points offers you below average value. Paladorcs have some very specific strengths, but using GWM is not included in one of them. And let me say this as well; every time I see a paladorc with a two hander, I know there is something wrong.



If you're primarily going paladin you're really not using a 7th level slot for much else, are you? what else would you do, fireball for 12d6? not much better. for resource management... see above.You can do a lot of things, give it some thought, or open a thread about this, it is another discussion all by itself, but I tell you, there are many better things you can do with a 7th level slot.

And if you are primarily a paladin, then no, you dont have 7th level spell slots. You seem though to forget that if you are a single class paladin you get all those other stuff you gave up in order to get those extra slots and a couple of other things. Paladorcs are generally worse than single class paladins, especially at higher levels. This is hard to prove in one sentense, but maybe I can restate it in a more understandable way. Usually a paladin multiclasses to tailor his build towards some specific aspect of it, or to net a cool trick or two, encompassed with some a pinch of added versatility. But he ends up losing power overall, especially if you examine this from a long term perspective. At least that is how I understand it.

[Foxhound438]

You can do a lot of things, give it some thought, or open a thread about this, it is another discussion all by itself, but I tell you, there are many better things you can do with a 7th level slot.


within the context of a melee focused build that has access to nothing higher than 4th level spells from any one class, what would you do? just curious.

[Foxhound438]

This is a PVP build. Throw it in an arena vs a big HD monster, and tell the character to give everything, give him 1-2 rounds to prepare, and enjoy the spectacle.

the best thing about a "pvp build" is that a good build can do even better against random mobs, since pc's have the benefit of having many options. i've shown one gimmick here but there's literally 2 spells mentioned, so you can easily fill in the rest of your spells with a garden variety of utility and have an answer to every situation. The big benefit here is, when you run across some big nasty fight against one target, you can deal a ton of damage in melee. anything else you can fill in the blanks.

[JNAProductions]

the best thing about a "pvp build" is that a good build can do even better against random mobs, since pc's have the benefit of having many options. i've shown one gimmick here but there's literally 2 spells mentioned, so you can easily fill in the rest of your spells with a garden variety of utility and have an answer to every situation. The big benefit here is, when you run across some big nasty fight against one target, you can deal a ton of damage in melee. anything else you can fill in the blanks.

In which case you're burning through spell slots like nobody's business. Those are quite the limited resource, in 5E.

[Corran]

within the context of a melee focused build that has access to nothing higher than 4th level spells from any one class, what would you do? just curious.Well, I was toying around a similar idea of a build some time ago, and I had posted a thread regarding which spells are worth upcasting. Here is the a link to that thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472150-Spells-that-scale-exceedingly-well
If presented with such a situation, ie playing a gish that has high level spell slots but no proper high level spells, my go-to is AoA. But that is just me. Look at this thread, you might find some good answers.
I do wish to ask you two questions. First, if there indeed weren't any better uses for you high level slots, dont you think that this would be a huge problem on its own? Secondly, why dont you just use greater invisibility? It just uses a 4th level slot, and the benefits are arguably better overall. Keep elemental weapon as a drastic alternative for when fighting sth with vulnerability at some type of elemental damage. Or for when you really really need to go all out attack.


the best thing about a "pvp build" is that a good build can do even better against random mobs, since pc's have the benefit of having many options. i've shown one gimmick here but there's literally 2 spells mentioned, so you can easily fill in the rest of your spells with a garden variety of utility and have an answer to every situation. The big benefit here is, when you run across some big nasty fight against one target, you can deal a ton of damage in melee. anything else you can fill in the blanks. As I said, thrown one of those cuties big HD monsters that are essentially meat-sacks, at a rate of one per day, and you are home! Paladorcs have indeed some tricks, but using a two hander and spending a feat on GWM is not one of these tricks.

Think of it like that:
If a battlemaster fighter spends a feat for GWM to increase his damage output by, lets say 50%, and you take the same feat to increase your damage output by, say 30%, then you are using this feat in a less efficient way than the fighter. It does not matter if your deal more damage than him or not (depends on how many rounds and short rests you use to measure the total damage), that damage is paid for, and rediculously expensive imo.

If you want to use the GWM feat efficiently, you want a reliable source of advantage and/or of flat bonus to your attack, minimal extra dice so that the damage you risk is low, so that the +10 damage benefit weights more, as many attacks as you can get (eg haste, extra attack 2, extra attack 3, PM - you see how much less these cost than quickening sth?), and ideally all of the above. That is how you use GWM efficiently. Think of a battlemaster fighter with his many attacks, trip atack for advantage, precise for flat bonus, riposte and action surge for additional attacks, and all at a very low cost. You want to use it even more efficiently? Add a better source of advantage. For example, add two warlock levels for darkness and devil's sight, so that you dont have to use the trip maneuvre, and so that you will use riposte even more often, considering also that you will be attacked at disadvantage, that you wont have to use trip attack to grant yourself advantage, and that you wont have to use precise strike that often since you will be attacking at advantage at a more common rate than if using trip attack.

Anyway, my point is that your build does not even rely that much on GWM. And you have tailored so many choices on it, that if you start examining altering things here and there, you will probably see some very important strengths of an optimised paladorc.

[magic2345]

This is interesting, but I think I'm missing something here. How does 8 levels in Sorcerer get you a 7th level spell slot?

[spartan_ah]

This is interesting, but I think I'm missing something here. How does 8 levels in Sorcerer get you a 7th level spell slot?

since Paladin is a half caster he is equal to a 13th level spellcaster at lvl 20

[magic2345]

since Paladin is a half caster he is equal to a 13th level spellcaster at lvl 20

OHH, I understand now. Sorry, I must've added the spell slots so he'd have 8 1st level spell slots. Got the multiclassing spell table confused with something else.

Don't mind me.

[Zalabim]

Over the course of a day, Paladorc here might be expected to spend every spell slot on keeping up quickened GFB and EW. The end result of GWM in this day would be less 100 average damage, total, over 20 rounds. It's useful when Sacred Weapon is up, but not helpful when just EW is up.

(Assuming 19 target AC, no outside source of advantage, 5 encounters, two short rests, all buffing done pre-combat and 20 rounds of combat.)

[Deadandamnation]

I know that we are speaking about optimization and Paladin have a nice Burst damage (probably one of the higher) but I'd rather prefer a sword and board utility paladin that boost the whole party defenses, heal, bless and support the party to work better in a cooperation adventure than a standalone nova paladin that try to oneshot anything and cry when something unexpected happen.

Paladin S&B Standard output is: 2 Attacks 1d8+5 (+2 from duelist), 1d8 from improved smite and 2d8 of 1st level smite. That's 8d8+14 (50) each turn burning your 1st level slots pretty fast. (If you use the spell points variation that become pretty usable all day long)

That's at the cost of nothing, no gear, no precasted spells, no multiclasses, no feats and achievable at 11th.

So be balanced and that will pay out in the long run, and when your paladin will be old and will tell his children how they killed the demon the story should be: "The battle was hard but my companions and I have send him back to hell" istead "My companions all died but I have send him back to hell"

My 2 cents

[Foxhound438]

Think of a battlemaster fighter with his many attacks, trip atack for advantage, precise for flat bonus, riposte and action surge for additional attacks, and all at a very low cost.

you have 7 dice at most, so it seems to me you're spending a lot of resources every time you need to hit. sacred weapon works for a whole combat after activated and comes back on a short rest, just like those superiority dice.

Also pal/sorc doesn't have access to aoa. it's certainly something that can be done, but it's not very good if your foes are the least bit perceptive and decide to use bows and such to wear it down anyways.

[Foxhound438]

So be balanced and that will pay out in the long run, and when your paladin will be old and will tell his children how they killed the demon the story should be: "The battle was hard but my companions and I have send him back to hell" istead "My companions all died but I have send him back to hell"

My 2 cents

seems to me it might end up being you sitting in valhalla telling people about how you got wrecked by a demon because you didn't have the ability to put out enough damage. If we're going to question beg about "what if this exact thing you didn't build around happens", that goes both ways.

[Pex]

I know that we are speaking about optimization and Paladin have a nice Burst damage (probably one of the higher) but I'd rather prefer a sword and board utility paladin that boost the whole party defenses, heal, bless and support the party to work better in a cooperation adventure than a standalone nova paladin that try to oneshot anything and cry when something unexpected happen.

Paladin S&B Standard output is: 2 Attacks 1d8+5 (+2 from duelist), 1d8 from improved smite and 2d8 of 1st level smite. That's 8d8+14 (50) each turn burning your 1st level slots pretty fast. (If you use the spell points variation that become pretty usable all day long)

That's at the cost of nothing, no gear, no precasted spells, no multiclasses, no feats and achievable at 11th.

So be balanced and that will pay out in the long run, and when your paladin will be old and will tell his children how they killed the demon the story should be: "The battle was hard but my companions and I have send him back to hell" istead "My companions all died but I have send him back to hell"

My 2 cents

Two-handed without GWM is also good on its own since you can reroll 1s & 2s on your smite damage dice and the 1d8 from Improved Smite. Naturally you don't have a shield, but it's not an expensive cost for what you get.

[Corran]

you have 7 dice at most, so it seems to me you're spending a lot of resources every time you need to hit. Really? This seems to you like a lot of resources, given to how your build is supposed to work?

sacred weapon works for a whole combat after activated and comes back on a short rest, just like those superiority dice. Enjoy missing that first round in combat, I am sure it plays well with your damage-centric build! Sacred weapon offers a very good benefit, which is balanced by how it interacts with action economy. Which is poorly.


Also pal/sorc doesn't have access to aoa. it's certainly something that can be done, but it's not very good if your foes are the least bit perceptive and decide to use bows and such to wear it down anyways. Yes, paladorcs dont have access to AoA. Yes, it is a bad stratey when figthing enemies that fight in range. You decide when to use it, that is some serious and relatively easy resource management. There are certainly drawbacks to it and it is far from the perfect strategy, it is just one that I like. And trust me, it is a much better use of a spell slot than upcasting elemental weapon. Think about it. I mean, if you were ok about using a 7th level slot with elemental weapon, you should be ecstatic with AoA.


seems to me it might end up being you sitting in valhalla telling people about how you got wrecked by a demon because you didn't have the ability to put out enough damage. If we're going to question beg about "what if this exact thing you didn't build around happens", that goes both ways. I think what he is saying, is that such builds are good for show and for easy mode campaigns.

[Foxhound438]

that is some serious and relatively easy resource management.

... i guess the ability to properly manage resources is somehow monopolized by you then? i've literally been saying that.

[Foxhound438]

I think what he is saying, is that such builds are good for show and for easy mode campaigns.

"if your campaign isn't like this it's easy mode"

if your campaign doesn't have fights where you need to do a lot of damage to survive it's easy mode

if your campaign has 7 fights that are independently less hard than the one fight a day mine does it's easy mode

if your campaign isn't level-locked at 6 fighting armies of terrasques it's easy mode

[Corran]

... i guess the ability to properly manage resources is somehow monopolized by you then? i've literally been saying that.Notice how I said the word easy.


"if your campaign isn't like this it's easy mode"

if your campaign doesn't have fights where you need to do a lot of damage to survive it's easy mode

if your campaign has 7 fights that are independently less hard than the one fight a day mine does it's easy mode

if your campaign isn't level-locked at 6 fighting armies of terrasques it's easy mode
If a campaign throws one major fight where the players just need to throw everything they ve got to win, then from a combat perspective it is an esay mode campaign. No resource management required, no difficult decisions during combat, every other combat is a copy-cut of the previous day's one. Everyone just knows exactly what to do during round 1, during round 2, round 3, etc....
Dont take the term easy mode campaign that I used as a bad description of a campaign. It is purely from a combat perspective. Most of my campaigns and the campaigns I play in are easy mode in that sense, as they focus more on story than dungeon crawling, so we have just 1 fight per session/day for the most part, if any at all.

[Foxhound438]

If a campaign throws one major fight where the players just need to throw everything they ve got to win, then from a combat perspective it is an esay mode campaign. No resource management required, no difficult decisions during combat, every other combat is a copy-cut of the previous day's one. Everyone just knows exactly what to do during round 1, during round 2, round 3, etc....
Dont take the term easy mode campaign that I used as a bad description of a campaign. It is purely from a combat perspective. Most of my campaigns and the campaigns I play in are easy mode in that sense, as they focus more on story than dungeon crawling, so we have just 1 fight per session/day for the most part, if any at all.

you missed the point

[MaxWilson]

Over the course of a day, Paladorc here might be expected to spend every spell slot on keeping up quickened GFB and EW. The end result of GWM in this day would be less 100 average damage, total, over 20 rounds. It's useful when Sacred Weapon is up, but not helpful when just EW is up.

(Assuming 19 target AC, no outside source of advantage, 5 encounters, two short rests, all buffing done pre-combat and 20 rounds of combat.)

I've never really understood the assumption of "pre-combat [magical] buffing." If you already know the enemy is there, either they know you're there too, in which case combat has already started, or they don't know you are there until you initiate, in which case why is casting buffing spells the only way you're preparing to stack the deck? Shouldn't you be searching out partial or total cover (with Mould Earth if necessary), laying caltrops, smearing drow sleep poison on your ammunition, casting Animate Objects, and ensuring good lines of fire for missile weapons? If you can do all that stuff, the combat itself should be relatively straightforward*: pin the enemy in your kill zone until it's dead.

* That is, DMG-balanced combats of triple-Deadly or so or under will be relatively straightforward. Not so much if you've ambushed a superior force--a 10x Deadly combat will remain difficult even if you had the initiative. In fact, you may be preparing the battlefield specifically to execute a hit-and-run maneuver so you can kill half the enemy and still escape with your lives.

[Zalabim]

For me, that assumption is made because without it, the Half-Orc Champion with 20 Str and GWM and nothing else overtakes this build by just fighting when combat happens, and I'm in a hurry. Realistically, you can't count on your concentration to last forever (breath weapons are very good at ending concentration), nor on each encounter fitting within one of your three one hour windows for EW, nor on taking three encounters per day by complete surprise to use Sacred Weapon. The fighter works with no spells, no concentration, no preparation. Just draw a greatsword and start smashing. When **** hits the fan, he's instantly ready. When the party is on its last legs, he still has half HP.

Also, because without pre-buffing, the build would never use GWM at all. It'd be a useless feat.

[MaxWilson]

For me, that assumption is made because without it, the Half-Orc Champion with 20 Str and GWM and nothing else overtakes this build by just fighting when combat happens, and I'm in a hurry. Realistically, you can't count on your concentration to last forever (breath weapons are very good at ending concentration), nor on each encounter fitting within one of your three one hour windows for EW, nor on taking three encounters per day by complete surprise to use Sacred Weapon. The fighter works with no spells, no concentration, no preparation. Just draw a greatsword and start smashing. When **** hits the fan, he's instantly ready. When the party is on its last legs, he still has half HP.

Also, because without pre-buffing, the build would never use GWM at all. It'd be a useless feat.

Why? Magic Weapon has a very good action economy (1 bonus action) and offers the same +3 to-hit that Elemental Weapon does. Is +14 to-hit not good enough for you to want GWM?

[Zalabim]

+14 to hit and +3 damage is good enough. +14/13 to hit and +9/6 damage is too much damage to risk, for AC 19. Let me get it double checked.

+9 2d6(GS)+1d8(IDS)+3d4(EW)+5(STR)+10(GWM)
+9 2d6(GS)+1d8(IDS)+3d4(EW)+5(STR)+10(GWM)+3d8+5 (GFB)
37.583~*.55+22.583~*.05=21.8
53.3~*.55+33.3~*.05=31

+14 2d6(GS)+1d8(IDS)+3d4(EW)+5(STR)
+14 2d6(GS)+1d8(IDS)+3d4(EW)+5(STR)+3d8+5 (GFB)
27.583~*.8+22.583~*.05=23.1958
43.3~*.8+33.3~*.05=36.3~

As a factor, EW is 9*.6 in case one, and 9*.85 in case two. MW would be 3*.55 and 3*.8. So, 3.75 less damage on GWM and 5.25 less damage without. MW numbers should be 18.05/27.25 for GWM and 17.9458/31.083~.

Looks like if you're using EW without Sacred Weapon, you should not use GWM at all. If you're using MW without Sacred Weapon it's fine, except on the quickened spell. Both spells last an hour, so there's less worry about their action economy. If there is, EW could be quickened. Sacred Weapon cannot.

Edit: Without advantage, the 20 Champion Half-Orc gets ~193.25 damage from GWM in those same 20 rounds. Barbarians are probably the ones getting the most out of the feat, however.

[Foxhound438]

Looks like if you're using EW without Sacred Weapon, you should not use GWM at all. If you're using MW without Sacred Weapon it's fine, except on the quickened spell. Both spells last an hour, so there's less worry about their action economy. If there is, EW could be quickened. Sacred Weapon cannot.


the idea is to use SW when the fight is obviously going to be hard. any other case is kind of a play-by-ear thing. for example, you're probably not going to fight 5 separate pit fiends in one day, you're probably going to be fighting some smaller enemies some of the time, so in those cases you just use your MW or lower EW, and since their AC's will likely be a bit lower you can still GWM. Save sorcery points there as well by using the GWM's bonus attack when you can, and otherwise don't worry about it if the fight's not big enough to justify burning all your resources.

[MaxWilson]

+14 to hit and +3 damage is good enough. +14/13 to hit and +9/6 damage is too much damage to risk, for AC 19. Let me get it double checked.

+9 2d6(GS)+1d8(IDS)+3d4(EW)+5(STR)+10(GWM)
+9 2d6(GS)+1d8(IDS)+3d4(EW)+5(STR)+10(GWM)+3d8+5 (GFB)
37.583~*.55+22.583~*.05=21.8
53.3~*.55+33.3~*.05=31

+14 2d6(GS)+1d8(IDS)+3d4(EW)+5(STR)
+14 2d6(GS)+1d8(IDS)+3d4(EW)+5(STR)+3d8+5 (GFB)
27.583~*.8+22.583~*.05=23.1958
43.3~*.8+33.3~*.05=36.3~

As a factor, EW is 9*.6 in case one, and 9*.85 in case two. MW would be 3*.55 and 3*.8. So, 3.75 less damage on GWM and 5.25 less damage without. MW numbers should be 18.05/27.25 for GWM and 17.9458/31.083~.

Looks like if you're using EW without Sacred Weapon, you should not use GWM at all. If you're using MW without Sacred Weapon it's fine, except on the quickened spell. Both spells last an hour, so there's less worry about their action economy. If there is, EW could be quickened. Sacred Weapon cannot.

Edit: Without advantage, the 20 Champion Half-Orc gets ~193.25 damage from GWM in those same 20 rounds. Barbarians are probably the ones getting the most out of the feat, however.

I don't understand why you're assuming EW because without pre-buffing, there is no elemental weapon at all. But you can use Magic Weapon with your bonus action and still attack, so the proper comparison is Magic Weapon with or without GWM.

Here's my quick BOTE assuming Magic Weapon IV (because it's more readily available than VI):

Paladin, two attacks at +13 for 2d6+d8+7 against AC 19: avg.2.(d20+13)?19:2d6+d8+7 = 28.90 damage, or avg.2.(d20+13)?19:2d6+d8+7+5d8 = 64.90 if you're blowing big spell slots on smites.

With GWM, that's avg.2.(d20+8)?19:2d6+d8+17 = 29.65 damage, or avg.2.(d20+8)?19:2d6+d8+17+5d8 = 54.40 if you're blowing big spell slots on smites. GWM has negligible impact here.

If you are instead an Eldritch Knight 20, you can Action Surge for avg.8.(d20+8)?19:2d6+15 = 90.80 points of damage using GWM (only 74.80 without), but against non-Huge foes it's probably better to spend one attack pushing them prone so you can get advantage and inflict avg.7.(d20a+8)?19:2d6+15 = 120.28 points of damage instead.

Conclusion: without pre-buffing, it's better to play an Eldritch Knight than a Paladin. Plus, EKs make better archers than Paladins do, and archery >>> melee.

[Vogonjeltz]

(that benefits from great weapon fighting style RAW, whether you like it or not, sage advice).

Question for clarification: You're saying this entire theory hinges upon a non-canon reading of the rules?

And, since you opened the can of worms, the basis of the Sage advice answer is thus:

PHB 84, Great Weapon Fighting refers to a damage die for an attack made with a melee weapon.
PHB 85, Improved Divine Smite: "Whenever you hit a creature with a melee weapon, the creature takes an extra 1d8 radiant damage. If you also use your Divine Smite with an attack, you add this damage to the extra damage of your Divine Smite."
PHB 85, Divine Smite: "When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one paladin spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon's damage."

Note not just the bolded portions, but also the totality, reveal that Divine Smite is explicitly not part of the weapon attack, but additional damage that happens along with it. Great Weapon Master also explicitly only works on the attack dice which Smite is not a part of.


All three fighter archetypes can do a lot of good on their own, but Battle Master probably adds the most for this build, since Precision Attack can be used to boost an attack to hitting range 6 times per short rest (7 with the feat), meaning those fighters, with good resource conservation, can hit almost as often as the paladins (getting an average of +6.5 to the attack, as opposed to the paladin's +8).

Champion does better dpr when there are (iirc) 30+ combat rounds worth of attacks and the assumed two short rests per day. Battlemaster does better if there are less.


Paladin's smite can add another 5d8 per hit, the first 3 hits, and if you blow the 5th and 6th level slots too you get up to 6 hits of +5d8, when you really need to nuke.

This may be a little inside baseball, but you can't use those slots for Divine Smite.

The build you've listed has only 12 levels of Paladin (8 levels Sorcerer), and the highest level spell slot from a 12th level Paladin is 3rd level. PHB 85 on Divine Smite states that a "paladin spell slot" must be expended. None of the slots gained from the Sorcerer levels (i.e. all the higher level slots) count for this purpose.

[Corran]

This may be a little inside baseball, but you can't use those slots for Divine Smite.

The build you've listed has only 12 levels of Paladin (8 levels Sorcerer), and the highest level spell slot from a 12th level Paladin is 3rd level. PHB 85 on Divine Smite states that a "paladin spell slot" must be expended. None of the slots gained from the Sorcerer levels (i.e. all the higher level slots) count for this purpose.
When you multiclass you have no paladin slots, or sorcerer slots, you just have spell slots. You can use divine smite with any slot your character has.

[Foxhound438]

Question for clarification: You're saying this entire theory hinges upon a non-canon reading of the rules?

And, since you opened the can of worms, the basis of the Sage advice answer is thus:

PHB 84, Great Weapon Fighting refers to a damage die for an attack made with a melee weapon.
PHB 85, Improved Divine Smite: "Whenever you hit a creature with a melee weapon, the creature takes an extra 1d8 radiant damage. If you also use your Divine Smite with an attack, you add this damage to the extra damage of your Divine Smite."
PHB 85, Divine Smite: "When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one paladin spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon's damage."

Note not just the bolded portions, but also the totality, reveal that Divine Smite is explicitly not part of the weapon attack, but additional damage that happens along with it. Great Weapon Master also explicitly only works on the attack dice which Smite is not a part of.


This may be a little inside baseball, but you can't use those slots for Divine Smite.

The build you've listed has only 12 levels of Paladin (8 levels Sorcerer), and the highest level spell slot from a 12th level Paladin is 3rd level. PHB 85 on Divine Smite states that a "paladin spell slot" must be expended. None of the slots gained from the Sorcerer levels (i.e. all the higher level slots) count for this purpose.

a) raw means rules as written. "extra damage" is part of the attack's total damage, which is why you get double smite on crits. it clarifies under the rule for crits as part of an example, but that piece of example is not why you double sneak attack and such, you double it because it's part of the attack's damage roll. the same applies to gwfs.

b) read the PHB errata.

[RulesJD]

a) raw means rules as written. "extra damage" is part of the attack's total damage, which is why you get double smite on crits. it clarifies under the rule for crits as part of an example, but that piece of example is not why you double sneak attack and such, you double it because it's part of the attack's damage roll. the same applies to gwfs.

b) read the PHB errata.

1. You're wrong, you can't re-roll Smite damage with GWF. See JC's ruling - http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/22/does-great-wepon-fighting-let-you-reroll-all-of-the-attacks-damage-dice/

2. You're right. You can spend whatever spell slot you want (even Warlock ones hint hint) to Smite.

[Foxhound438]

1. You're wrong, you can't re-roll Smite damage with GWF. See JC's ruling - http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/12/22/does-great-wepon-fighting-let-you-reroll-all-of-the-attacks-damage-dice/


don't care about sage advice. by the books it works.

[RulesJD]

don't care about sage advice. by the books it works.

Except that no, no it doesn't.

You know how I know it isn't weapon damage? Because you don't get it every time you swing your weapon.

You can argue all you want, you're wrong. The guy who wrote the rules is telling you that you're wrong.

[Fable Wright]

Ignoring the last page of RAW arguing:


Paladorcs have some very specific strengths, but using GWM is not included in one of them. And let me say this as well; every time I see a paladorc with a two hander, I know there is something wrong.

Allow me to turn this on its head.

Sorcadins have a great deal of strengths, but whenever I see one go sword and board, I know there is something wrong.

When you get to the high levels, your AC doesn't matter, despite bounded accuracy this and that. You can get AC 26 by burning your reaction and daily resources. Whoo. Monsters have +17 or more to hit at that level; the only way to justify your character investment is to continually burn resources. But, uh. Question. Why are the monsters engaging you? You don't keep them in reach because of their fear of an OA, you're using your resources to do things that are not high damage, and have little utility against mobs of enemies.

I propose an alternative. I wield a sensible weapon, like a Glaive. I'm a polearm master. I have AC 18 and all your defensive spells. And more importantly, I can draw aggro. I can smite on my reaction while keeping enemies from approaching my teammates. I've got my buffs and a fair bit of defensive healing, plus whatever the party is laying on me, and I nearly always deliver 4 attacks in a round compared to your usual 2. When I stand in front of my party, monsters don't want to approach given the terrifying damage my OA can do when they come near, and when they do, my buffs keep me from harm.

A Glaive is a 2-handed weapon that's boosted by GWM and GWF. I have staying power without using my slots from Sentinel, and I can nova when needed. Why would you say that there's something wrong with my build, as opposed to the mighty turtle that fails to shield his teammates?

[Corran]

snip
Polearm master is great, and it works perfectly with the vast majority of pure paladin builds. The question is, that if for one or the other reason you are set on polearm master and perhaps sentinel as well (yes, they do work great together), why add any sorcerer levels at all? Just go straight paly and be done with it.

Truth is that I dont really like paladors. Paladins end up being always better in the end. There are two main reasons to ever consider being a paladorc. First reason is that the player loves to spam smites. That has led to seeing a thread about a paladin2/sorcererX or sth similar every second day. Which is a poor excuse of a multiclass, but I digress. Second reason. Party set-up sucks, and there is only one poor guy who is suppoesed to tank every single thing in the encounter. There paladorc shines. Paladorcs make good tankadins. Sure, they are not as sticky as polearm master sentinels, but they have the second best thing (warcaster BB). And if you are tanking alone, you are better off having warcaster and bb rather than polearm master sentinel, as it will be better to deal extra damage (and quite a lot of it), than maybe stop one out of how many enemies in its tracks. And they can tank really well. Imo you can achieve the best outcome using a S&B build, so that you can be the best in what you do. If you want another role, you can achieve it better with sth other than a paladorc.

[Foxhound438]

Truth is that I dont really like paladors. Paladins end up being always better in the end.

you can think that, but end of the day it's not objective, it's an opinion. my opinion is that nothing past pal 11 (12 if you want the asi) is really worthwhile most of the time. maybe death ward at 13, maybe 15th oath feature, but past that i would rather go into other classes for tricks after that. Not that the capstones are bad, they're amazing, but the 4-8 levels in between there? not really much to behold. quicken BB is much more efficient, resource wise, than a pure paladin for example. with your 2nd level slot you can smite for 3d8, or 15.75 average, on top of your standard attacks while a quickened booming blade/green flame is 4d8+weapon+str (+cha if 6 in sorc), average 34, on top of your standard attacks. even if you have no points left you burn the slot this turn, burn the points next, and you're still ahead of the guy who smited twice for double the resources. only real drawback is that you can miss the quickened attack, but with SW you can have a +16 off of one action, meaning even the hardest to hit targets are around 50% for you.

and if you take the whole one turn to quicken E-weap too, you're at 65% against those.

i know, "the opportunity cost", but honestly if the target has AC26 you can bet on it having a ton of HP, so that battle's going on for a while.

[JNAProductions]

i know, "the opportunity cost", but honestly if the target has AC26 you can bet on it having a ton of HP, so that battle's going on for a while.

Name one monster with AC 26. One. Monster.

[Malifice]

I've never really understood the assumption of "pre-combat [magical] buffing." If you already know the enemy is there, either they know you're there too, in which case combat has already started, or they don't know you are there until you initiate, in which case why is casting buffing spells the only way you're preparing to stack the deck? Shouldn't you be searching out partial or total cover (with Mould Earth if necessary), laying caltrops, smearing drow sleep poison on your ammunition, casting Animate Objects, and ensuring good lines of fire for missile weapons? If you can do all that stuff, the combat itself should be relatively straightforward*: pin the enemy in your kill zone until it's dead.

* That is, DMG-balanced combats of triple-Deadly or so or under will be relatively straightforward. Not so much if you've ambushed a superior force--a 10x Deadly combat will remain difficult even if you had the initiative. In fact, you may be preparing the battlefield specifically to execute a hit-and-run maneuver so you can kill half the enemy and still escape with your lives.

Please, no-one listen to this advice. Its terrible.

While its possible that a prebuffed party with the element of surprised can take down a triple deadly encounter, you (the DM) cant always factor on the party being prebuffed and having the element of surprise. Flubbing a single perception check to notice the enemy when the DM has placed triple deadly encounters in front of them almost certainly results in a TPK.

Keep the encounters balanced in the parties favor (medium-hard difficulty), and thus reward the group who prebuffs and achieves surprise with an easier fight - dont make prebuffing and surprise a requirement of victory.

[MaxWilson]

Ignoring the last page of RAW arguing:

Allow me to turn this on its head.

Sorcadins have a great deal of strengths, but whenever I see one go sword and board, I know there is something wrong.

When you get to the high levels, your AC doesn't matter, despite bounded accuracy this and that. You can get AC 26 by burning your reaction and daily resources. Whoo. Monsters have +17 or more to hit at that level; the only way to justify your character investment is to continually burn resources. But, uh. Question. Why are the monsters engaging you? You don't keep them in reach because of their fear of an OA, you're using your resources to do things that are not high damage, and have little utility against mobs of enemies.

I propose an alternative. I wield a sensible weapon, like a Glaive. I'm a polearm master. I have AC 18 and all your defensive spells. And more importantly, I can draw aggro. I can smite on my reaction while keeping enemies from approaching my teammates. I've got my buffs and a fair bit of defensive healing, plus whatever the party is laying on me, and I nearly always deliver 4 attacks in a round compared to your usual 2. When I stand in front of my party, monsters don't want to approach given the terrifying damage my OA can do when they come near, and when they do, my buffs keep me from harm.

If you're facing "mobs" of krakens and ancient dragons (+18 and +17 to hit, respectively), my hat is off to you. My only question is, why is the kraken terrified of the OA from your glaive? It doesn't even need to come within glaive range to hit you, and if it did it would barely even feel the wound.

If you're fighting something tamer like mobs of demons, that AC benefit may be quite important. A CR 16 Marilith has +9 to hit. She'll hit your AC 18 Glaive wielder 60% of the time. She'll hit the AC 28 Paladorc (AC 21 + Shield of Faith + Shield) 10% of the time, or 1% of the time if he knocks her prone first and grapples her there. That forces her to react to his grapple, so the party can seize the tactical initiative. The sword and shield guy has more tactical options open to him because he's higher on the AC curve and that gives his party the advantage.

Mariliths have an unusually low to-hit for their CR, but even a Goristro would hit only 9% of the time, and a CR 20 Pit Fiend would hit 12% of the time. (In reality, he'd hit even less once things like Warding Bond, Haste, and Cutting Words are accounted for. And I haven't even mentioned Foresight or the Alert feat. Nor magical items, because I hate magical items.)

================================================


Name one monster with AC 26. One. Monster.

CR 4 Couatl comes pretty close (AC 24 w/ Shield), but variant Ancient Red Dragon hits AC 27 w/ Shield, in addition to the blindsight + Darkness combo he can play. If disadvantage is like +5, that makes him effectively AC 32 for as long as his Shields hold out.

And of course there's always NPCs.

[MaxWilson]

Please, no-one listen to this advice. Its terrible.

While its possible that a prebuffed party with the element of surprised can take down a triple deadly encounter, you (the DM) cant always factor on the party being prebuffed and having the element of surprise. Flubbing a single perception check to notice the enemy when the DM has placed triple deadly encounters in front of them almost certainly results in a TPK.

Keep the encounters balanced in the parties favor (medium-hard difficulty), and thus reward the group who prebuffs and achieves surprise with an easier fight - dont make prebuffing and surprise a requirement of victory.

Malifice, quit lying. I said that pre-buffing trivializes roughly equal fights, and it does. It's very dishonest of you to pretend that I said anything other than that.

Please stop responding to what I write because you never respond honestly to what I actually write.

[Malifice]

Malifice, quit lying. I said that pre-buffing trivializes roughly equal fights, and it does. It's very dishonest of you to pretend that I said anything other than that.

There is no such thing as a 'roughly equal fight' mate.

A [medium - hard] encounter is one the PC are expected to win, expending around 10-15 percent of party resources (spells, hit points etc) in the process.

Incidently, 'pre-buffing' does little to stop this resource drain (the buffs themselves being the drain).

[MaxWilson]

There is no such thing as a 'roughly equal fight' mate.

A [medium - hard] encounter is one the PC are expected to win, expending around 10-15 percent of party resources (spells, hit points etc) in the process.

Incidently, 'pre-buffing' does little to stop this resource drain (the buffs themselves being the drain).

You're changing the subject because you got caught. Stop lying. You know what you did.

Just stop it.

[Malifice]

You're changing the subject because you got caught. Stop lying. You know what you did.

Just stop it.

Your post clearly implied 3 x deadly encounters and even 10 x deadly encounters were something that a DM would put in front of players.

My advice is: Dont.

[Zalabim]

A Glaive is a 2-handed weapon that's boosted by GWM and GWF. I have staying power without using my slots from Sentinel, and I can nova when needed. Why would you say that there's something wrong with my build, as opposed to the mighty turtle that fails to shield his teammates?

So, +13 to hit for 1d8+7(Longsword)+1d8(IDS)+2(MW)= [18] or 13.95 average against AC 19 is ignorable but +8 to hit for 1d10+5(Glaive)+1d8(IDS)+2(MW)+10(GWM)= [27.8] or 14.45 average against AC 19 will command respect. (Using canon GWF here.) The expense of two feats for +.5 damage makes all the difference. (Without MW, it's 10.85 vs 10.86). When you present one build with three feats and the other with none, I'd expect that highly specialized build to do something more impressive than .01 more average damage per attack. This may surprise you, but thanks to Dueling fighting style, Polearm Master is also a good feat option for a SnB, or stick and shield, style character.


I don't understand why you're assuming EW because without pre-buffing, there is no elemental weapon at all. But you can use Magic Weapon with your bonus action and still attack, so the proper comparison is Magic Weapon with or without GWM.

I'm assuming EW because the OP is using EW as a reason to use GWM and is using a build that has quicken spell, so it's also available as a bonus action. If the OP wants to use EW, they'll use EW. It's not a good idea, but it's the idea I'm evaluating. Plus it lasts an hour. I'm also assuming the use of GWF included in the OP, even though RAI is not to.

[Foxhound438]

Name one monster with AC 26. One. Monster.

a) you missed the point

b) you can make your own monsters

[MaxWilson]

I'm assuming EW because the OP is using EW as a reason to use GWM and is using a build that has quicken spell, so it's also available as a bonus action. If the OP wants to use EW, they'll use EW. It's not a good idea, but it's the idea I'm evaluating. Plus it lasts an hour. I'm also assuming the use of GWF included in the OP, even though RAI is not to.

That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

[JNAProductions]

a) you missed the point

b) you can make your own monsters

Then what was the point?

Also, for making your own monsters, here's the DMG's recommended AC for a CR 30 monster-19. AC 19. Not 26.