Fighter Build Help

[Dienekes]

So, after years of not playing D&D I got invited to a Pathfinder game again, and I was wondering if I could get some help.

It's in a team of guys I know, I'm not sure of how skilled they are in the game, I'd guess moderately optimized.

Anyway, I was hoping for help on a build. I really like playing badass normals, but I also hate just saying "I power attack" every round. My favorite class in D&D was the Warblade, which felt useful, had good out of class capabilities, was definitely badass and best of all, most of what he could do was just swinging his sword in ways that honestly a fighter should have been able to do. Sure his abilities had weird names, but scratch off the names and all the Warblade was really doing was parrying, or attacking in an overhand strike, or whatever. It was great.

In any case, the GM is one of those who doesn't like using 3rd party material. So my go to plan of trying out some of those Path of War classes is a no go.

So, are there any builds of various classes and feats that can create a character that has no spells or magic abilities, but can still function in and out of combat and do cool things beyond the same attack over and over again?

Going through some feats and abilities, the Dirty Trick maneuver looks interesting, though it seems to require 4 feats until it actually starts being useful. Cornugon Smash looks fun. The Critical X feats look interesting, but personally I'd like a bit more control over my character, but if that's the best option available I'll take them.

Is there any other things I should be looking at? Some class combination or one of the all too numerous Archetypes I should be looking through?

Thanks for your help.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Well if I can self promote, you could check out my (in-progress) guide to the Fighter (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q5l2KQRI55azlsLrVS4QfZ-4UWUxmKtgQYesvnWueis/edit).

If you want to focus on combat maneuvers I highly recommend the Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden). You get very strong bonuses to your CMB and the extra 2 skills per level is nice as well. With traits you can make Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff or Use Magic Device int-based skills which gives you a little more flexibility in how you allocate those skills.

You don't need the full improved > greater > master feat chains for maneuvers to be effective. So long as you get the feat that prevents attacks of opportunity then you're good. The Dirty Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-fighting-combat) feat is also good for getting around feat requirements as well as avoiding AoOs on any maneuvers.

With the alternate weapon training options you can get extra skill ranks per level as well (though the skills are set when you choose that option). Still, if you like you can have 6+Int skills per level at level 5 for the cost of a feat (with Lore Warden). There are some other really cool things you can do via archetypes. Take a look at my guide.

[Serafina]

Well, you still have your old non-spellcaster class trinity: Barbarian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/barbarian-unchained), Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter), Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained). Pathfinder also adds the Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler), Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier), Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger), Slayer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer) and Swashbuckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler). And if you remove it's Alchemy class feature via an archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo---investigator-archetypes/sleuth), the Investigator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator) is also not magical, and Rangers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger) can trade out their spellcasting via three (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/skirmisher) different (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/trapper) archetypes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/divine-marksman-ranger-archetype).


Now the very first thing you should ask your GM about is whether Combat Stamina (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/stamina-and-combat-tricks-optional-rules) is in play, and how he uses it. It greatly benefits classes with a full BAB, so all the classes listed above (except for the Investigator).
The second thing you should do is check out this list of guides (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/stamina-and-combat-tricks-optional-rules), as well as these short guides to all classes (http://rpgbot.net/pathfinder/characters/classes/).


The main problem is obviously that no matter what class you play, you will only ever have a limited amount of feats to spend. That very much limits you in terms of versatility, no way around that. Specializing on several combat maneuvers can be quite problematic due to such limited resources. Your "power attack each round" can easily change into "dirty trick each round", obviously.
Still, there are interesting options that you can use with a full-BAB character.

Here is one trick for a Fighter, though it only comes online at level 7 or thereabouts:
Use the Advanced Weapon Training (Abundant Tactics). Then you take Barroom Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/barroom-brawler-combat) and thus gain abundant access to one swappable combat feat. Better yet, Abundant Tactics gives you more daily uses for a lot of other feats:
Battle Cry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/battle-cry-combat), Combat Meditation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-meditation-combat), Perfect Awareness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/perfect-awareness-combat).
You can also get good access to a lot of feats that enhance unarmed strikes: Befuddling Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/befuddling-strike-combat), Draining Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/draining-strike-combat), Paralyzing Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/paralyzing-strike-combat), Punishing Kick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/punishing-kick-combat) or Stunning Fist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/stunning-fist-combat---final).
You can use Barroom Brawler to get access to the Improved Combat Maneuver feat you want right now, which can be nice. With Combat Stamina it only takes a swift action, and thanks to Abundant Tactics you should have three uses of it around level 7 if you get Gloves of Dueling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gloves-of-dueling).



In the end, you should look at what you want your character to do. Specializing on any one combat maneuver can work, and you can get nice builds that mix in a single combat maneuver into a full-attack routine. With some work, you may be able to stretch that to two combat maneuvers. Sadly a lot of the nice stuff will only come online at higher levels.

[Florian]

Well, the Varisian Freestyle Fighter archetype might be a thing to check out. Trades some three feats for the Brawler´s Martial Flexibility and Armor Training for more simultaneously active styles.
With the right base feat selection, that´s a Fighter that can actually be configured to fit the situation at hand.

[Spore]

Personally I feel like a Fighter needs both superior knowledge of possible magic items (to cover ground towards the other player's abilities to fly, heal and do other crazy stuff) and possible (combat) feats in order to really shine properly since the class is basically built on customizing your fighting style to your needs. The fighter is better than his reputation but requires effort in the character planning part. That being said, even a half-assed Paladin or Cavalier tends to pull ahead.

That being said, depending on your group setup and your personal preferences the most suitable build varies drastically for fighters. (Because you mentioned dirty tricks, I am personally very fond of mixing Rogue and Fighter levels because the sum of its abilities is greater than any trueclassed Fighter or Rogue can achieve).

[Azoth]

I am personally a fan of using the aforementioned Lore Warden archetype comboed with the Martial Master Archetype. You can give yourself a bit of a slow start by being human and spending your feats on the gateway feats to the combat maneuver feats and archery (Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike, Point Blank Shot) you get Combat Expertise for free at level 2. What this does is allow you to adapt your combat tactics and maneuvers on the fly from level five onward. Use Martial Flexibility to pick up any of the Improved combat maneuvers to suit the situation or be a better archer when melee isn't applicable.

It slows you down a little at level one from focusing on your preferred method of combat, but it opens up more options. Lore Warden also giving you two skill points a level to spend on Int keyed skills can help round you out with some knowledge skills.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'd advise against Martial Master - it's pretty nice, but the recently added Advanced Weapon Training feature is really good. How the AWT system works is at levels 9, 13, or 17 you can choose to not select an additional weapon group to get weapon training bonuses on (your already-selected weapon groups still have their bonuses increase, so you aren't really giving up much) and in exchange get an ability from this list (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Advanced-Weapon-Training). You can also spend a feat (also called Advanced Weapon Training, because of course some part of this system has to be confusing) on it once per 5 levels, and you can first do so at level 5, so AWT actually becomes available at 5th level, not 9th.

Some of the abilities are bleh, some are alright, and some are insane. Abundant Tactics is nice, especially with 1/day feats like Barroom Brawler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/barroom-brawler-combat); that particular combination lets any fighter play mini-Martial Master a few times per day. Fighter's Reflexes, Focused Weapon, Trained Initiative, Trained Grace, and Trained Throw are all worth a look in case your build has room for them - which it will, because you don't really need weapon training in more than two groups.

Why two? Because of Versatile Training. Choose two skills based on the weapon groups you're trained in; you get to add those skills to your class list, retrain any ranks you have in either skill, and use your BAB in place of your ranks in those skills. That's two free skills. For one feat. Advanced Weapon Training should be pretty much every fighter's 5th- and 10th-level feats - and if you're planning to choose Bluff and Intimidate, you can pick the second instance of Versatile Training in place of an additional Weapon Training group at 9th level. Congrats, the fighter now has 6+Int skills, or 8+Int with Lore Warden.

If you want to be nonmagical but are fine with a magical buddy, Eldritch Guardian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/eldritch-guardian-fighter-archetype) is pretty good. A familiar with the Mauler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/mauler-familiar-archetype) archetype can grow to Medium size at will (it's a standard action, but with no set duration), getting +2 to Strength on top of the normal increases from the size change. A Tiny familiar gets +10 Strength from this, on top of the bonus from the Increased Strength feature (which gives +1 Strength at level 3 and every two levels thereafter). You also get to share all of your combat feats with your familiar, so they make for a nice teamwork-feat buddy.

The Flying Fox (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/bat/bat-flying-fox) is a really nice choice - flight, scent, low-light vision, and 20 Strength at level 3. The King Crab (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/crab/king-crab) gets darkvision, a swim speed, 18 Strength, and two natural attacks. A Fox (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/fox) is a good pick for someone who wants a normal-ish familiar: 20 Strength, low-light vision, and scent. The Compsognathus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/dinosaur/compsognathus) is also notable; 19 Strength, low-light vision, scent, swim speed, and a tasty +4 bonus to initiative for its master.

There are enough Improved Familiar options that work well as Maulers that I won't go through them all here, but the Clockwork Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/clockwork/clockwork-familiar), Dweomercat Cub (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/dweomercat/dweomercat-cub), Pseudodragon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/pseudodragon), Faerie Dragon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-faerie), Tidepool Dragon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/dragon-tidepool), and Shadow Drake (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/drakes/drake-shadow) are all notable for both their high base Strength and their various special abilities.

[Serafina]

Sadly Improved Familiars can't take the Mauler-Archetype due to this:
Improved Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-familiar) states that "improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind".
Mauler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/mauler-familiar-archetype) states that "This ability replaces speak with master and speak with animals of its kind."
So they can't take the archetype because they don't have the right abilities to trade away. Which is a damn shame really.

But yes, having a mauler-familiar that shares all your combat feats can be really great. Heck, it'll have a better to-hit and more feats than an animal companion. And heck, if you are small you can even ride most Mauler-familiars.

Go take Outflank (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/outflank-combat-teamwork) and Paired Opportunist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/paired-opportunists-combat-teamwork). Use a weapon with a high crit-range, and once it's keen suddenly most of your hits will grant your familiar an attack of opportunity - which in turn gives you one attack of opportunity. Potentially multiple times per round.

For further goodies for this, consider combat-teamwork feats. They'll be automatically shared with your familiar, after all.
Broken Wing Gambit is risky, but will basically ensure that once you've surrounded the enemy, they can't even attack you or your familiar without being hit twice in return.
Overwhelm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/overwhelm-combat-teamwork) is great if you want to make flanking really easy. If you're small (possibly riding your familiar), it effectively works on anything that is Large or larger.
Snapping Flank (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snapping-flank-combat-teamwork) works great if you have a bite attack, and use a familiar with a bite attack. Free swift-action bite attacks under most circumstances.


Now granted, all those tricks resolve once again around attacking. If you want to do more than that, you may want to look into Bodyguard-builds or such. But you can also throw intimidate and combat-maneuvers onto all of the above.

[Captain Morgan]

While Fighters have a lot of cool Advanced Weapon Training options now, I think they mostly make the class more functional without mixing up your tactical options. I think the Brawler might be what the OP needs, or possibly the aforementioned Martial Master. Martial Flexibility is probably the best first party option for the thinking man's martial, giving you choices of how you want to approach every combat. If you feel uninspired the Dedicated Adversary feat grants +2 to hit and damage. Otherwise enjoy access to whatever specialized feat most benefits you.

I'm a big fan of the Shield Champion Brawler, as shield ricochets and long distance combat maneuvers open up some insane combos, including bull rushing enemies in any direction you want.

[Dienekes]

I want to thank you all for helping. It gave me some good and interesting ideas. Unfortunately, I found out that the game will be using stuff from this site: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/gettingStarted.html

Not the far more extensive d20pfsrd, so I'm limited in what is an option, and it looks like the Advanced Weapon Training is a no go.

[upho]

I really like playing badass normals, but I also hate just saying "I power attack" every round. My favorite class in D&D was the Warblade, which felt useful, had good out of class capabilities, was definitely badass and best of all, most of what he could do was just swinging his sword in ways that honestly a fighter should have been able to do.So my go to plan of trying out some of those Path of War classes is a no go.


So, are there any builds of various classes and feats that can create a character that has no spells or magic abilities, but can still function in and out of combat and do cool things beyond the same attack over and over again?


Unfortunately, I found out that the game will be using stuff from this site: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/gettingStarted.htmlRealizing the kind of character concept you're looking for in a game with the above limitations is unfortunately very difficult, if not impossible, IME. The flexible and tactically fun warblade-ish mechanics simply aren't there without PoW, and many of the options which can improve the fighter and make things like combat maneuvers a lot more viable are also found in Paizo supplements other than those listed in the PRD.

So if this game is intended to have the PCs advance beyond level 7 or so, I think you should have a serious talk with your DM about being a bit more lenient on what he/she allows. In particular, I'd question the decision to allow full casters but not the very well designed and far less powerful PoW classes, not to mention the martial options from other Paizo sources, as this decision unfortunately significantly increases the risk of ending up with a very poorly balanced game in mid/high levels. Which will inevitably cause a lot of headache for the poor DM trying to build adventures/encounters that allows all characters in the party, fighters and monks as well as clerics and wizards, to have a roughly equal spot in the limelight.



Going through some feats and abilities, the Dirty Trick maneuver looks interesting, though it seems to require 4 feats until it actually starts being useful.With the above limitations, I'd say DT is the only combat maneuver and non-damage option that can remain truly viable in even in higher levels. But yes, you're pretty much correct on the 4 feats requirement. So if you decide to go dirty, I would recommend that you, as far as possible, bulk invest (through retraining or some version of Martial Flexibility) in the related feats to get at least Quick Dirty Trick at once, as the prerequisites are pretty garbage by themselves.


Cornugon Smash looks fun.It is. And it can be an extremely potent debuff for a Str-based melee focused PC when combined with Intimidating Prowess (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/intimidating-prowess-combat---final), Soulless Gaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation) (plus a second Damnation Feat such as Fiendskin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/fiendskin-damnation)) and an option which allows your demoralization to bypass immunity to fear and mind-affecting effects. But if both Damnation Feats as well as immunity bypass options remains unavailable, I'd regard this mostly as a nice and flavorful addition if you have a couple of free feat slots, not something you should base your combat prowess on.


The Critical X feats look interesting, but personally I'd like a bit more control over my character, but if that's the best option available I'll take them.IME, the crit feats work pretty well on paper but much less so in a real game, at least before very high levels, especially if you like smart tactics rather than lucky rolls. I think there are three basic problems hampering their effectiveness: 1) a crit will almost always happen during a full attack, which in turn will most likely deal enough damage to to kill most opponents, making the condition-imposing options (such as Staggering Critical) redundant; 2) their usefulness is highly limited before a full attack has a high probability of producing at least one crit against the most challenging opponents in an encounter (ie when the crit may actually really matter for the outcome of the fight rather than simply overkill some relatively harmless mook); and 3) they don't help much in terms of mitigating the martial classes' arguably greatest weakness, ie their combat inflexibility (notably their reliance on being able to make full attacks in order to be effective in combat).


I'm a big fan of the Shield Champion Brawler, as shield ricochets and long distance combat maneuvers open up some insane combos, including bull rushing enemies in any direction you want.If the DM remains adamant about the limitations and you're set on making a martial character, I second this. The Shield Champion can pull off some hilarious combos and the built-in switch-hitting mechanics help mitigate the full attack reliance weakness. (Here's a build example (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454387-Wolf-Trip-Shield-Champion-Intimidation-Martial-Control-of-Gravitas) (shameless advertising) that may give you some inspiration, although it does rely on sources currently unavailable in your game.)

Besides the Shield Champion, which can be tricky to get the most out of, I would definitely recommend the barbarian. Especially with the limitations on sources, it's a far more flexible and powerful non-caster option than the fighter. And if you like to keep the martial feel but feel open to blending in some casting, the pally and especially the alchemist, hunter, inquisitor, warpriest and the magus can be built into excellent combatants.

Note that my above comments are mostly valid if your party will include moderately optimized full casters. If it won't, you'll probably have a few more viable options without risking your mechanics feeling redundant in higher levels, although I believe none of those options will really help you improve combat flexibility and tactical options à la warblade.

[Florian]

I want to thank you all for helping. It gave me some good and interesting ideas. Unfortunately, I found out that the game will be using stuff from this site: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/gettingStarted.html

Not the far more extensive d20pfsrd, so I'm limited in what is an option, and it looks like the Advanced Weapon Training is a no go.

I would have a talk about that with your gm. The Paizo PRD intentionally lags behind with updates (You know, they want to sell you books..) and does not cover any of the Golarion-specific material or rules from the Companions or any other softcovers. That stuff can be found on archivesofnethys.com a site that covers on Paizo material and is not as chocked full with 3PP stuff as d20pfsrd is.

[Psyren]

If the campaign is PRD-only, do whatever you can for the GM to approve Combat Stamina. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/gameplay/combatTactics.html) Spring for pizza. Wash their dog. Do their homework. Whatever it takes!

[Captain Morgan]

If the campaign is PRD-only, do whatever you can for the GM to approve Combat Stamina. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/unchained/gameplay/combatTactics.html) Spring for pizza. Wash their dog. Do their homework. Whatever it takes!

Oh, that's a good call. Stamina is an optional system, but it would add a lot more decision making to your character in combat.