How would you get the most out of dual wielding?

[Spacehamster]

With no option for -5/+10 and other types of fighting still beeing able to get bonus attacks keeping up on dpr as a dual wielder seems hopeless. So how would you guys squeeze the most out of dw?

One build I thought of is 13 barbarian, 4 champion and 3 spell less hunter ranger half orc.
3-4 attacks per turn, 3 extra die on crit, superiority die, 19-20 crits and +3 rage damage. Pick dueling style and two weapon style as your two styles amd do one attack with mainhand, throw your offhand handaxe and do the remaining 1-2 attacks with the +2 dueling style damage + on nova pop action surge. Use free action to pull out another handaxe to keep the +1AC from dual wielder feat. So how does this seem and whats your idea on good/decent or interesting dual wield builds? :)

If DM allows you to use offhand bonus attack first to throw hand axe before going into melee and there is a target for horde breaker you would with no
crits do 1d6 + 8(11,5) + 1d8 + 10 * 3 so 55 dpr, if you use reckless attacks while in rage there is a pretty darn nice chance to crit due to 19-20 crits turning
the mainhand attacks into 4d8 + 10 and the thrown into 4d6 + 8.

[Sir cryosin]

With no option for -5/+10 and other types of fighting still beeing able to get bonus attacks keeping up on dpr as a dual wielder seems hopeless. So how would you guys squeeze the most out of dw?

One build I thought of is 13 barbarian, 4 champion and 3 spell less hunter ranger half orc.
3-4 attacks per turn, 3 extra die on crit, superiority die, 19-20 crits and +3 rage damage. Pick dueling style and two weapon style as your two styles amd do one attack with mainhand, throw your offhand handaxe and do the remaining 1-2 attacks with the +2 dueling style damage + on nova pop action surge. Use free action to pull out another handaxe to keep the +1AC from dual wielder feat. So how does this seem and whats your idea on good/decent or interesting dual wield builds? :)

The dueling style on work if you don't have a weapon in the other hand right? And you might want to add in hunters mark or hex for the add d6 to hits. And may take to your DM about creating a feat like GWM

[RaynorReynolds]

The dueling style on work if you don't have a weapon in the other hand right? And you might want to add in hunters mark or hex for the add d6 to hits. And may take to your DM about creating a feat like GWM

-3 to hit/+5 damage?

[RickAllison]

The dueling style on work if you don't have a weapon in the other hand right? And you might want to add in hunters mark or hex for the add d6 to hits. And may take to your DM about creating a feat like GWM

I think that way why he was interrupting the attack action with throwing the handaxe. Throwing the handaxe then frees up his second hand, so the rest of the attacks do get the bonus!

[Spacehamster]

I think that way why he was interrupting the attack action with throwing the handaxe. Throwing the handaxe then frees up his second hand, so the rest of the attacks do get the bonus!

Yep thats exactly what I meant, a nice DM could prob let you use the offhand bonus attack throw first for an additional +2 aswell, know I would. :)

[Finieous]

Hunter Ranger 5 (or Bladelock 5)/Swashbuckler 15 with Two-Weapon Fighting Style and Dual Wielder with rapiers. Ranger levels give you TWF style, Extra Attack and Hunter's Mark; only cost you 2d6 sneak attack dice. You're AC 18 without magic items and you have Uncanny Dodge, so you can probably handle Sentinel for double sneak attack opportunities. Should get you up around 60 DPR at level 20; considerably more, obviously, when Sentinel procs a second sneak attack.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You could dual-wield hand crossbows and combine Crossbow Expert and Sniper.

[PoeticDwarf]

The other ideas are nice, but that are specific builds that suck with other styles but still are worse than most GW fighters.

I'd go TWF style and full rogue or fighter. It IS that simple

[mgshamster]

You could dual-wield hand crossbows and combine Crossbow Expert and Sniper.

That is a cool idea. You ignore the loading property, so you get all your extra attacks, plus you can use a bonus action every round to fire once more. You ignore disadvantage for firing while in Melee, you ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover, you ignore disadvantage for long range, and you can still get the -5/+10.

Just make sure you have plenty of ammo. :)

[Finieous]

You can't actually "dual wield" hand crossbows. But yes, if "dual wielding" isn't really important to the concept, a build that uses XBE/SS or GWM offers superior damage output. I think the OP knew that but was asking how to get the most out of dual wielding.

[JackPhoenix]

That is a cool idea. You ignore the loading property, so you get all your extra attacks, plus you can use a bonus action every round to fire once more. You ignore disadvantage for firing while in Melee, you ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover, you ignore disadvantage for long range, and you can still get the -5/+10.

Just make sure you have plenty of ammo. :)

You ignore the loading property, which means you can shoot more then once per turn, but the crossbow still have ammunition property, which means you need free hand to reload it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You ignore the loading property, which means you can shoot more then once per turn, but the crossbow still have ammunition property, which means you need free hand to reload it.
Carry a bunch of 'em. Every turn you drop a bow, reload, and draw another bow. (Also, by RAW I don't see where the Ammunition property demands a free hand)

[bid]

Carry a bunch of 'em. Every turn you drop a bow, reload, and draw another bow. (Also, by RAW I don't see where the Ammunition property demands a free hand)
Errata: "Ammunition (p. 146). Loading a one-handed weapon requires a free hand."

[Corran]

TWF requires a chassis with no extra attacks, no scag cantrips (BB/GFB) and as many extra dice as possible.
Worst build for TWF is probably a pure fighter, especially a champion.
Best build is potentially a pure rogue cause of sneak attack, just go for sth that does NOT have access to BB, if you want to feel that you made the best choice. Perhaps a swashbuckler, which reduces the competition for your bonus action so that you can use your bonus action attack when your normal attack misses at a smaller opportunity cost.

[Finieous]

TWF requires a chassis with no extra attacks

Why's that?

[Corran]

Why's that?
Because of the low weapon die.

[Talamare]

Crossbow Expertise technically can be done with only 1 Hand Crossbow

"When you use the ATTACK ACTION and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a loaded hand crossbow you are holding."

You technically reload after attacking, and it doesn't state it needs to be your offhand weapon or a different weapon.

So Dual Wielding Crossbows or using just One Hand Crossbow has the exact same end result
3 Attacks from a Hand Crossbow

Honestly, there was no reason for them to errata out the rule of cool of Dual Wielding Crossbows

[mgshamster]

Crossbow Expertise technically can be done with only 1 Hand Crossbow

"When you use the ATTACK ACTION and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a loaded hand crossbow you are holding."

You technically reload after attacking, and it doesn't state it needs to be your offhand weapon or a different weapon.

So Dual Wielding Crossbows or using just One Hand Crossbow has the exact same end result
3 Attacks from a Hand Crossbow

Honestly, there was no reason for them to errata out the rule of cool of Dual Wielding Crossbows

The mechanical point of engaging in TWF is to gain the extra damage on your off-hand attack. As this no longer matters if you're just holding a single weapon, then you could have the same mechanical effect with just one hand crossbow, with an additional +2 to attack by taking the ranged fighting style.

Duel wielding hand crossbows is actually worse in this instance, so there really isn't a reason to not allow it.

[Rhaegar14]

Something I realized recently that's relevant, though far from a completed build: one of the ways you can get the most out of a TWF build, especially on a Rogue, is to bear in mind that you can make a shove in place of a weapon attack. This includes your off-hand attack. So essentially, if you're dual-wielding you automatically gain the ability to use your bonus action to shove someone prone (for advantage on other attacks) instead of getting the extra bonus action attack.

A Rogue with Athletics expertise is often better served by using their bonus action to shove an opponent prone for advantage, especially if they couldn't otherwise get their Sneak Attack, rather than take the extra 3 damage.

[RickAllison]

Something I realized recently that's relevant, though far from a completed build: one of the ways you can get the most out of a TWF build, especially on a Rogue, is to bear in mind that you can make a shove in place of a weapon attack. This includes your off-hand attack. So essentially, if you're dual-wielding you automatically gain the ability to use your bonus action to shove someone prone (for advantage on other attacks) instead of getting the extra bonus action attack.

A Rogue with Athletics expertise is often better served by using their bonus action to shove an opponent prone for advantage, especially if they couldn't otherwise get their Sneak Attack, rather than take the extra 3 damage.

Not quite:


Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee
attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or
push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple
attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces
one o f them.

So no off-hand shoving. Further, the wording of two-weapon fighting indicates that you have to make an attack with a light melee weapon in the main hand. Now, if you gained Extra Attack from some class, you could use one attack to Shove, then still have two attacks to take advantage on.

[mgshamster]

So no off-hand shoving. Further, the wording of two-weapon fighting indicates that you have to make an attack with a light melee weapon in the main hand. Now, if you gained Extra Attack from some class, you could use one attack to Shove, then still have two attacks to take advantage on.

Drats. You're right. No dual wielding hand crossbows. But you still can do a single hand crossbow using crossbow expert. Also pseudo-dual wield a light Melee weapon and a hand crossbow.

Would that still count for extra damage on the off hand?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not quite:



So no off-hand shoving. Further, the wording of two-weapon fighting indicates that you have to make an attack with a light melee weapon in the main hand. Now, if you gained Extra Attack from some class, you could use one attack to Shove, then still have two attacks to take advantage on.
Okay, so you knock it prone with your main attack and then sneak attack with your off-hand.

[RickAllison]

Okay, so you knock it prone with your main attack and then sneak attack with your off-hand.

Yup! That works out perfectly. The only difference it really makes is that you can't use the attack that lacks the STR/DEX modifier (moot point with the appropriate Fighting Style) to get the free shove. Other than that, there is no real difference.

[Ewhit]

You ignore the loading property, which means you can shoot more then once per turn, but the crossbow still have ammunition property, which means you need free hand to reload it.

Yet if he's duel wielding sword and crossbow he won't have free hand so it's mute same as if u say he can sheath sword he can do with crossbow.
On top of that you can duel wield the crossbow expert feat hand crossbow that is allows it ignoring reload and allowing another hand weapon Hand crossbow.

[Slipperychicken]

My first thought is a Rogue with 3-5 levels of BM Fighter (mainly for Riposte), Sentinel, maybe Mounted Combat, and I'm agnostic about Dual Wielder. For completeness' sake, Mage Slayer may be desirable, depending on the campaign.
-SA, only 1 or 2d6 behind
-2 or 3 attacks per turn, can also action surge for more
-3 different triggers for reaction attacks (AoOs, missing the Rogue, attacking a different target)
-2 different ways to get advantage (feinting and tripping maneuvers, plus maybe having a big mount if took Mounted Combat)

This means lot of opportunities to proc sneak attack. Just about anything an enemy does will provoke a reaction attack. You get all your Roguish utility, and some options in combat to keep you awake.

[Rhaegar14]

Not quite:



So no off-hand shoving. Further, the wording of two-weapon fighting indicates that you have to make an attack with a light melee weapon in the main hand. Now, if you gained Extra Attack from some class, you could use one attack to Shove, then still have two attacks to take advantage on.

I'll admit it adds ambiguity (thus up to the DM), but on the same page:


Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand...

The Shoving section states that if you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, the shove replaces one of them. Two-weapon fighting allows you to make an additional attack as a bonus action as part of the Attack action. I read that as being able to shove off-hand as a bonus action.

But again, I'll give you that it's ambiguous enough that you should ask your DM, and as you said, it's irrelevant if your main and off-hand attacks are identical (even if you have Fighting Style, you might have a magic main-hand weapon and a mundane off-hand).

[Finieous]

Because of the low weapon die.

That's either not an answer, or I'm just not seeing it. At 65% hit chance, Extra Attack is worth (9.5*.65) = 6.175 DPR, plus about +8% chance to land sneak attack every round. Two sneak attack dice for a dual-wielder are worth (7*.8775) = 6.14 DPR. So the "Extra Attack chassis" is already better. But now the Extra Attack build also adds Two-Weapon Fighting style, Hunter's Mark and Colossus Slayer, or Two-Weapon Fighting style, Action Surge and Superiority Dice, or Rage Damage and Reckless Attack, or Hex and Devil's Sight + Darkness, etc.

[mephnick]

They did everything they could to make two-weapon fighting the absolute worst. I'm not even sure why they bothered putting it in if they weren't going to give it a fair shake.

[Corran]

...
So the "Extra Attack chassis" is already better.
....
Obviously having the extra attack feature is better than not having it at all, if your character is relying on the attack action. What I am saying is that the attack action feature favors the rest figthing styles more compared to the TWF, and it is one of the factors that make TWF bad in this edition. For example consider a 20 level fighter with a greatsword and then with TWF. If you add feats the gap becomes even greater.


They did everything they could to make two-weapon fighting the absolute worst. I'm not even sure why they bothered putting it in if they weren't going to give it a fair shake.
Part of the problem lies with the DW feat. I really think they should have made the part that allows you to draw two weapons at once part of the fighting style, and to add something better in the feat. The way it is now, both the feat and the fighting style seem lackluster. Especially if you consider that you are adding them on top of a weak base.

[Finieous]

Obviously having the extra attack feature is better than not having it at all, if your character is relying on the attack action. What I am saying is that the attack action feature favors the rest figthing styles more compared to the TWF, and it is one of the factors that make TWF bad in this edition. For example consider a 20 level fighter with a greatsword and then with TWF. If you add feats the gap becomes even greater.


That's all certainly true, but what you wrote, and what I was questioning, is this:


TWF requires a chassis with no extra attacks

So anyway, I think we're on the same page.

[mer.c]

They did everything they could to make two-weapon fighting the absolute worst. I'm not even sure why they bothered putting it in if they weren't going to give it a fair shake.

I think it's implemented the way it is just because there are so many ways of breaking the balance on extra attacks by stacking +damage effects. I imagine that's why we don't get ability score modifier to offhand damage without a Fighting Style, and why offhand attacks don't scale up with multiattacks. Also, I assume, part of why Fighters are the only class to get more than 2 attacks in 5e, where as plenty of classes had full BAB in 3.x.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Okay, so you knock it prone with your main attack and then sneak attack with your off-hand.

Doesn't work either, since you don't get the off-hand if you didn't make a weapon attack with your on-hand.

[Jrandom]

What about adding 2 levels of wizard for Bladesinger? There are a bunch of limitations on it, but TWF isn't one of them.

[RickAllison]

What about adding 2 levels of wizard for Bladesinger? There are a bunch of limitations on it, but TWF isn't one of them.

Well at that point, War Caster becomes a feat tax! Of course, if you're a Bladesinger then why wouldn't you be planning on getting that anyway?

[Spacehamster]

I think it's implemented the way it is just because there are so many ways of breaking the balance on extra attacks by stacking +damage effects. I imagine that's why we don't get ability score modifier to offhand damage without a Fighting Style, and why offhand attacks don't scale up with multiattacks. Also, I assume, part of why Fighters are the only class to get more than 2 attacks in 5e, where as plenty of classes had full BAB in 3.x.

The thing is tho, it does not give you an extra attack compared to any other style, there is many ways to get an bonus attack without
an offhand, war priest, gwf crit/kill proc, berserker(ugh..), polearm master and crossbow master, what they should do is have
two weapon fighting add two bonus attacks if your chassi has the extra attack feature. that way you would get one attack more(and still
do less damage then the rest of the bunch due to no -5/+10 stuff).

[Nicodiemus]

You don't want to TWF as a bladesinger. Until you get war caster you need your off hand free for somatics. And by that time you'll have extra attacks making dueling or defense better options.