Why is the first level of druid so horrible?

[hymer]

Let's establish the horribleness of it. The obvious comparison to druid is cleric, because they are so similar.

Cantrips: Clerics 3, druids 2. Clerics get more, and get the better combat cantrip option in Sacred Flame.
Spells: Both the same.
Armour: They both get proficiency in shields and light and medium armour, but the druid can only use the lower end of AC. Cleric gets more.
Weapons: The cleric gets all simple weapons, druid get a bunch of simple weapons and scimitar. Pretty close.
One last thing: Clerics get a domain, which can give e.g. two languages and two skill proficiencies with expertise. Druids get druidic, a language nobody else speaks.

So, dear playgrounders, what are your thoughts? Why is the first level of druid so sub-par, if cleric is par for the course?

[Iolo Morganwg]

Since a PC is only there for 300 XP, I don' t see it as too big a deal. Things definitely pick up!

[Iguanodon]

Druid level 2 gets Wild Shape, probably the most powerful feature in the game. Why is the second level of Cleric so horrible?

/s

[JoeJ]

Let's establish the horribleness of it. The obvious comparison to druid is cleric, because they are so similar.

Cantrips: Clerics 3, druids 2. Clerics get more, and get the better combat cantrip option in Sacred Flame.
Spells: Both the same.
Armour: They both get proficiency in shields and light and medium armour, but the druid can only use the lower end of AC. Cleric gets more.
Weapons: The cleric gets all simple weapons, druid get a bunch of simple weapons and scimitar. Pretty close.
One last thing: Clerics get a domain, which can give e.g. two languages and two skill proficiencies with expertise. Druids get druidic, a language nobody else speaks.

So, dear playgrounders, what are your thoughts? Why is the first level of druid so sub-par, if cleric is par for the course?

Why are you making par = cleric?

But I think the answer to your question is simply that some classes are more front-loaded than others. And they all get a significant boost at the level where they choose their archetype. For clerics, that's 1st level.

[hymer]

I don' t see it as too big a deal.

I don't either, but that doesn't mean I'm not curious.


Druid level 2 gets Wild Shape, probably the most powerful feature in the game.

So you're saying it's to compensate for things getting better later?


Why are you making par = cleric?

Because their similarity makes it easy to compare the two.


But I think the answer to your question is simply that some classes are more front-loaded than others. And they all get a significant boost at the level where they choose their archetype. For clerics, that's 1st level.

So another vote for compensating for later improvement? Or are you saying this is just randomness inherent in the system?

[Nifft]

So you're saying it's to compensate for things getting better later?

For many classes, this is frequently the case, yes.

Classes are supposed to be roughly balanced at each level -- so your point is partially valid -- but they are also supposed to be roughly balanced over many different levels, and not everyone gets equally nice things at each level.

When a class gets a particularly nice thing at level X, then it must therefore get slightly less nice things for some other level(s), to preserve the overall balance between classes.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Is it just me, or is the Druid cantrip list waaay more interesting than the Cleric's? I don't think the Cleric has anything that compares with Shillelagh, and Thorn Whip also looks pretty good. Then there's Produce Flame for ranged attacks. I don't mind if I only get to pick two; it's hard to go wrong with any of those.

[JackPhoenix]

Is it just me, or is the Druid cantrip list waaay more interesting than the Cleric's? I don't think the Cleric has anything that compares with Shillelagh, and Thorn Whip also looks pretty good. Then there's Produce Flame for ranged attacks. I don't mind if I only get to pick two; it's hard to go wrong with any of those.

Indeed. Sacred Flame isn't bad, thanks to doing radiant damage, but that's about it. It is also the only offensive cantrip on cleric's list. Shillelagh is awesome, Produce Flame combines ranged attack (better for some creatures then dex save, worse for others) with worse damage type and weaker Light into one cantrip, Create Bonfire, Thorn Whip and Frostbite offers some ways to hamper enemy mobility combined with damage, Thunderclap is AoE...and those are only damaging cantrips, Mold Earth offers great utility, and both classes get great Guidance

[Theodoxus]

I agree that druids get better cantrips - probably why they get 1 fewer :smallwink:

I also think that since domains are their subclass, clerics are necessarily frontloaded in ways most classes aren't. (I think Warlock is also particularly strong at 1st, though, like druids, get even better at 2nd.)

But this is one reason I find starting at 3rd or 4th level is better for group dynamics. Every class 'comes online' by 3rd and the addition of an ASI/Feat at 4th means you can play the base idea of whatever your character will eventually become. In fact, as both a player and DM, I think 4th level is my favorite. Everyone has only 1 attack, metamagic means more, TWF means more, bonus action casting times mean more... Once 5th level hits, the martials are sprinting ahead of the casters (outside of the big showy spells - which typically happen once a session). I'd be more than happy to play in / create an E4 system for 5E, lol.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wild Shape at level 2 leads to a drastic change in how you play your character-- suddenly physical stats don't matter so much (if at all), and options that might have been good (say, Shillelagh) are useless. So you either have one sucky level preparing, or you have a good level and then are left in an awkward position stat- and spell-wise.

[MaxWilson]

I don't think Druid 1 is horrible at all. Entangle is a pretty good spell, and so is Goodberry. (Longstrider is good in a completely different, more Combat As War, way.) Since I would usually have Mobile already as a variant human, a first-level druid plays out like a skirmisher with a sling and a Thorn Whip who can heal or Entangle in a pinch in addition to digging fortifications with Mould Earth.

BTW, apropos of nothing, it just occurred to me that high-level Onion Druids are also terrific at AoE damage thanks to Thunderclap. Now I want to see a Onion Druid single-handedly demolish an entire hobgoblin army.

[Nifft]

high-level Onion Druids are also terrific

Onion Druids
...

Was there a hilarious update that I missed?

Are there anti-vampire Garlic Paladins and inebriated Grape Monks and acid-spraying Lemon Wizards, too?

[Malifice]

Let's establish the horribleness of it. The obvious comparison to druid is cleric, because they are so similar.

Cantrips: Clerics 3, druids 2. Clerics get more, and get the better combat cantrip option in Sacred Flame.
Spells: Both the same.
Armour: They both get proficiency in shields and light and medium armour, but the druid can only use the lower end of AC. Cleric gets more.
Weapons: The cleric gets all simple weapons, druid get a bunch of simple weapons and scimitar. Pretty close.
One last thing: Clerics get a domain, which can give e.g. two languages and two skill proficiencies with expertise. Druids get druidic, a language nobody else speaks.

So, dear playgrounders, what are your thoughts? Why is the first level of druid so sub-par, if cleric is par for the course?

Because Druids get so much more at level 2.

[CaptAl]

...

Was there a hilarious update that I missed?

Are there anti-vampire Garlic Paladins and inebriated Grape Monks and acid-spraying Lemon Wizards, too?

Onion Druid is in reference to Moon Druids and how you have to peel back all the layers of HP (wild shapes) in order to get to the core and defeat them.

Also, I totally would play a garlic Paladin.

[Aridon]

I actually felt pretty powerful at first level, contributing with Fairie Fire or Entangle and had one massive blast of Thunderwave that took out a lot of skeletons. Unfortunately, I think the low mid levels of Moon Druid, level 7 in particular, are rather underwhelming as wild shape just doesn't seem to be be keeping up in higher CR encounters. I'm now level 8 so we'll see how/if flying forms help. I'm also going to start emphasing conjuring and battlefield control and wild shaping less for combat. I think Moon Druid changes significantly over the levels and thus tactics must change or the class risks not contributing as much as it can.

[Talamare]

1st Level Druid gets Herbalism Kit Proficiency
Point? Druid~!

[mgshamster]

...

Was there a hilarious update that I missed?

Are there anti-vampire Garlic Paladins and inebriated Grape Monks and acid-spraying Lemon Wizards, too?

Ok, so we have a moon Druid and an acid focused evocation wizard (not that difficult).

We could probably find a drunken master archetype for the monk. Here's one (https://m.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/38ixjw/5e_drunken_master_homebrew_monastic_tradition/)

What do we need for the paladin? Undead slayer? Couldn't find one with a 5 second search, but here's a garlic ranger (https://wrathofzombie.wordpress.com/2014/09/21/undead-slayer-ranger-archetype-for-5e/)

[MaxWilson]

I actually felt pretty powerful at first level, contributing with Fairie Fire or Entangle and had one massive blast of Thunderwave that took out a lot of skeletons. Unfortunately, I think the low mid levels of Moon Druid, level 7 in particular, are rather underwhelming as wild shape just doesn't seem to be be keeping up in higher CR encounters. I'm now level 8 so we'll see how/if flying forms help. I'm also going to start emphasing conjuring and battlefield control and wild shaping less for combat. I think Moon Druid changes significantly over the levels and thus tactics must change or the class risks not contributing as much as it can.

Surely you jest. At level 7, a Moon Druid can:

(1) Turn himself into a giant ape for huge thrown-boulder damage, once per long rest; AND
(2) Conjure 8 king cobras/wolves/wolf spiders/giant owls/etc. to double the party's action economy and damage output, three times per long rest; AND
(3) Wild shape (as a bonus action) into a giant constrictor snake with 60 HP and AC 12 (15 if Mage Armored) twice per short rest, which is a lot like having the Sentinel feat since now your opportunity attack Restrains whomever you catch. You also have Blindsight so can play tricks similar to a Warlock in heavy obscurement (e.g. cast Fog Cloud and then wildshape, or have someone else cast Darkness); AND
(4) Cast Goodberry/Faerie Fire/Heat Metal/Pass Without Trace/Spike Growth/etc. like a normal caster, if you don't feel like wildshaping right now.

And that's without even considering feats like Sentinel or Mobile, or spells like Call Lightning which are auto-wins in certain terrain. (Or silly cheese tricks with Conjure Woodland Creatures to exploit bad CR-ing of Pixies, because those tricks wouldn't work at my table anyway.)

At level 7, the Moon Druid should be one of the MVPs of the PC team. IMO they don't really start to peter out until level 12 or 13 or so, at which point they kind of plateau for a while while wizards keep getting better at every spell level (Magic Jar => Simulacrum => Clone => Wish). Don't get me wrong, Moon Druids can still do fun stuff at these levels including Planar Binding strike teams of invisible Green Hags who unleash Lightning Bolt x3 from surprise, or Planar Binding a fey T-Rex or Giant Ape to be permanently on your team, and then Animal Shaping your whole strike team into the form of sparrows while a Dryad maintains Pass Without Trace over all of you--all of this is fun and worthwhile, but it's not qualitatively superior IMO to the stuff the Druid was already doing at level 10.

[busterswd]

Short Answer: because the classes aren't perfectly balanced.


Longer Answer: Clerics probably have one of the best level 1s of any class. You're neglecting Cleric domains (probably for parity), which have a very good chance of giving them more damage and AC.

Wizards, Sorcs and Bards, for example, also have a mediocre level 1 (although having Sleep on the spell list is pretty great); the formula is the same, though, in which your level 1 spells help you win a couple of encounters, and then you're stuck using a ranged weapon/cantrip for the rest of the day.

If I were to postulate as to why WotC balanced this way, I'd guess they restricted classes with healing spells from having a better cantrip in terms of damage. A well placed Healing Word at level 1 can be the difference between an unlucky party member being able to contribute to a full combat, instead of making death saves while the rest of the party scrambles. Oh, and Druids also get Goodberries, which can make everyone in the party a backup healer. That's a pretty significant level 1 advantage.

As a side note, Clerics are the only healing class (well, not counting Paladins) that is likely to completely neglect Dex; Druids and Bards will tend to have a decent Dex, which means they're likely to have a decent ranged weapon option.

[MeeposFire]

Classes are roughly balanced. They are not going to exactly equal. Even with the reputation 4e has for balance all the classes are not equal especially at level one. The important bit is whether a class is still roughly in the same vicinity as other classes. Honestly with its excellent set of spells the druid has no issues with this.

[Gwendol]

Still better than Paladin 1.

[PoeticDwarf]

Another questiom. Why is level 1 cleric that good. In-combat a fighter (domain features) and still spells

[hymer]

I just want to thank everyone for their thoughts, and especially to those who take up new and interesting questions. The OP is a little provocatively phrased, but it seems to have worked.

If I may ask, then: Is there a degree to which it is unacceptable for one class to be temporarily stronger or weaker than the others? Staying with the druid example, a second level moon druid is generally agreed to be too strong; and first level ranger is generally thought of as rather bland and unappealing. How much is too much, do you think?

[Arkhios]

Another question. Why is level 1 cleric that good. In-combat a fighter (domain features) and still spells

Because This (http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/assassinscreed/images/7/70/Char_priest.png/revision/latest?cb=20101129191420) is not a cleric. This (http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/lysAAOSwT6pVuaO3/s-l300.jpg) is.

PHB (pg. 56): "Clerics are intermediaries between the mortal world and the distant planes of the gods. As varied as the gods they serve, clerics strive to embody the handiwork of their deities. No ordinary priest, a cleric is imbued with divine magic." ~~ "Not every acolyte or officiant at a temple or shrine is a cleric. Some priests are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their gods' will through prayer and sacrifice, not by magic and strength of arms. In some cities, priesthood amounts to a political office, viewed as a stepping stone to higher positions of authority and involving no communion with a god at all. True clerics are rare in most hierarchies."

[busterswd]

I just want to thank everyone for their thoughts, and especially to those who take up new and interesting questions. The OP is a little provocatively phrased, but it seems to have worked.

If I may ask, then: Is there a degree to which it is unacceptable for one class to be temporarily stronger or weaker than the others? Staying with the druid example, a second level moon druid is generally agreed to be too strong; and first level ranger is generally thought of as rather bland and unappealing. How much is too much, do you think?

My biggest issue with the Moon Druid is that the Wildshape progression is completely broken (in both directions) as you level. I would much rather have had a stronger, more consistent wildshape progression with half casting; or hell, they should have made the act of Wildshaping consume spell slots, as opposed to this half-assed healing that's more of a trap to use than anything else.

The benchmark I use for relative strength is: if a character existing in a party singlehandedly necessitates a higher level encounter, it's too strong.

By this definition, Moon Druid Wildshape is definitely too strong at levels 2-3. Were the Druid just able to access bear multiattack, it'd already be the best class feature in the game at those levels. Considering they get a 70~ HP buffer on top of that, every short rest, it gets to the point where being able to win fights depends on the druid having shifts left.

By level 4, other classes have unlocked their specialization, multiple level 2 spells (for casters), a less swingy HP pool, potentially their first feat, and better gear; this is the level where the low AC of Wildshape starts to stand out, as they'll be eating damage that won't be reaching other characters. By level 5, other classes start being able to access multiattack/level 3 spells. While the Moon Druid as a class is still a head above the other classes, it's a very strong member of the party, as opposed to singlehandedly determining the party's success.

And then the Moon Druid normalizes a bit. Having that extra HP buffer is always handy, but you're not nearly as good at sustained damage, your spell list is great, but not necessarily better (barring Pixie abuse), and other classes begin to unlock their own features that make them more unique and powerful. You're still a top notch class, but you're not completely overshadowing other classes anymore, and in fact, depend on your party members to get things done.


On the opposite end, if a class feels like you made the wrong decision by picking it because of its sheer relative inferiority, it's too weak. Rangers get conditional, weak benefits that are outclassed by other classes's baselines in return for neutered half casting. I'm not experienced with the class, but I don't think there's ever a point where the class comes into its own.

[Gwendol]

You undersell the ranger IMO. Hunter ranger is among the best ranged combatants, in addition to a ton of utility. Beastmaster is clunky, but passable depending on the choice of pet.
Paladin 1 is not much fun. I know as I've played one.

[BW022]

It isn't.

The druid has likely two of the best cantrips in the game. Shillelagh is a bonus action cast, which does a d8+wis and allows wisdom for your attack rolls. This negates the need for a high strength in order to be useful in melee. Product flame is also better than sacred flame at low-levels since there is an attack role vs. saving throw.

The druid also has better first levels spells. Played intelligently... far better. Animal friendship and speak with animals is pretty much an assurance of reaching 2nd-level. Even if solo. Go find a wolf, bear, or leopard... cast animal friendship and speak with animals... and you have a protector equal to most creatures you might be fighting. Goodberry is more healing out of combat, distributed stabilizing, and free food. Entangle is a killer low-level outdoor spell vs. no real crowd control for the cleric.

The druid's skills are also better. Most cleric skills are knowledge based -- which is another hopeful dump stat. Survival and perception are far more commonly used.

A solo druid would have a far easier time at surviving until 2nd than most clerics. Even in a party, for the two or three play sessions it might take to reach 2nd-level... there is no reason to think the druid is in anyway inferior.

Slightly less AC for better stats, melee, ranged, crowd control abilities, slightly better skills, and (if necessary) the ability to have an animal companion if you need cheap muscle.

[Segev]

It isn't listed in their class features, but Druids still have their 3.0 animal companion. I say 3.0 because, like in 3.0, it's in the spell animal friendship. Go out and find a tough beastie to befriend with your first level spell slot, and now your first level druid has a second set of combat actions.

[MaxWilson]

It isn't listed in their class features, but Druids still have their 3.0 animal companion. I say 3.0 because, like in 3.0, it's in the spell animal friendship. Go out and find a tough beastie to befriend with your first level spell slot, and now your first level druid has a second set of combat actions.

There's nothing you can do with Animal Friendship that can't be done with a regular Animal Handling or Persuasion check.

[eastmabl]

One answer could be that, with only get two cantrips base, it makes Circle of Land druid a little more appealing with its additional cantrip.

The real answer is that the classes aren't perfectly balanced, and this never more evident than at levels one (1) and two (2). Classes pick up their subclass abilities at different points,

As has been mentioned, the barrier between level one (1) and three (3) is nine hundred (900) XP. It's maybe six (6) to eight (8) hours of game play, and not such a huge deal.

[MaxWilson]

By level 4, other classes have unlocked their specialization, multiple level 2 spells (for casters), a less swingy HP pool, potentially their first feat, and better gear; this is the level where the low AC of Wildshape starts to stand out, as they'll be eating damage that won't be reaching other characters. By level 5, other classes start being able to access multiattack/level 3 spells. While the Moon Druid as a class is still a head above the other classes, it's a very strong member of the party, as opposed to singlehandedly determining the party's success.

AC 15 with all-day Mage Armor is plenty. A wizard who won't Mage Armor the Moon Druid deserves to get eaten by giant bees. It's the single best use of your first-level slot.

At level 4, the Moon Druid can acquire Sentinel, which either makes him a better tank (in a ranged-heavy party) or doubles his damage output (in a melee-heavy party against opponents who like to ignore the Moon Druid).

At level 5, the Moon Druid unlocks 3rd level spells, especially Conjure Animals. It's better than Fireball.


On the opposite end, if a class feels like you made the wrong decision by picking it because of its sheer relative inferiority, it's too weak. Rangers get conditional, weak benefits that are outclassed by other classes's baselines in return for neutered half casting. I'm not experienced with the class, but I don't think there's ever a point where the class comes into its own.

Rangers on the other hand... Sharpshooter Hunter Rangers are just awesome. Volley is like at-will Fireball, all day every day. My last campaign just ended (in defeat, for the players) and we're about to start a new one, and I'm considering giving it a military angle where the players occasionally get involved in army fights. If so, the Hunter Ranger will be the MVP of the whole party (whether or not the players actually choose to make a Hunter is on them). In an army fight, the more bad guys you can kill, the more of your comrades you save. A Hunter can kill great whacking lots of enemies all over the battlefield, all day, every day, as long as he has someone to fetch arrows for him. He can do this in additional to his strong personal combat abilities in melee and at range, and with the same terrific Conjure Animals meat tank summoning as a druid. In addition, he has some nifty spells like Ensnaring Strike that control strong enemies and make it easier for everybody to dog-pile them.

The ranger is pretty strong. They're a bit weak in the single-target DPR department unless they're using Conjure Animals, but they have lots of AoEs (Spike Growth, Volley), which is why you should think of them as more like a Fireball archer than an assassin.

[Segev]

There's nothing you can do with Animal Friendship that can't be done with a regular Animal Handling or Persuasion check.

Can you please back that up? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like more evidence from the rules.

[MaxWilson]

Can you please back that up? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like more evidence from the rules.

Animal Friendship charms a beast for 24 hours, according to the spell description. According to PHB 290, charm prevents the creature from attacking you or targeting you with harmful spells, and it gives advantage on social checks. That's it.

So if your DM allows social checks to make an animal fight on your side, then Animal Friendship will help a little, and so would the Lucky feat or Expertise in Animal Handling or whatever. If your DM doesn't allow social checks to do that, then it won't.

Animal Friendship in 5E is more for getting an animal to let you sleep in its den or share its scavenger meat with you than for turning it into a minion. Charm in 5E is much, much weaker than it was in AD&D.

[Segev]

Animal Friendship charms a beast for 24 hours, according to the spell description. According to PHB 290, charm prevents the creature from attacking you or targeting you with harmful spells, and it gives advantage on social checks. That's it.

So if your DM allows social checks to make an animal fight on your side, then Animal Friendship will help a little, and so would the Lucky feat or Expertise in Animal Handling or whatever. If your DM doesn't allow social checks to do that, then it won't.

Animal Friendship in 5E is more for getting an animal to let you sleep in its den or share its scavenger meat with you than for turning it into a minion. Charm in 5E is much, much weaker than it was in AD&D.

Especially at 1st level, though, Advantage will be significantly more impactful than proficiency or even a high stat on a check to influence the animal.

Honestly, if the DM is going to say you can't persuade a charmed creature to fight for you, he'd argue that anyway, regardless of whether charm is merely advantage on a check or is "anything reasonable for free." Yeah, it's weaker...sort of. But if you think about it, "opposed charisma check to get them to do anything they wouldn't normally" vs. "advantage on all social checks" is not really that big of a difference.

[eastmabl]

Animal Friendship charms a beast for 24 hours, according to the spell description. According to PHB 290, charm prevents the creature from attacking you or targeting you with harmful spells, and it gives advantage on social checks. That's it.

So if your DM allows social checks to make an animal fight on your side, then Animal Friendship will help a little, and so would the Lucky feat or Expertise in Animal Handling or whatever. If your DM doesn't allow social checks to do that, then it won't.

Animal Friendship in 5E is more for getting an animal to let you sleep in its den or share its scavenger meat with you than for turning it into a minion. Charm in 5E is much, much weaker than it was in AD&D.

You've got the wrong comparator here.

We're discussing how animal friendship lets you get an animal companion akin to the 3.x druid. Comparing animal friendship to AD&D charm doesn't match up with the initial discussion.

Now, my read is that animal friendship is somewhere in the middle. It's more than MaxWilson's narrow interpretation, as a player should be able to make a Persuasion check to do something more than share living quarters or food. It's no small stretch of the imagination that the animal could be used to track a monster, or to convince to come attack a common foe. This is how we get into the realm of animal companion.

At the same time, it is not the loyal unto death servant that the 3.x druid animal companion was. The charmed animal may and should cut and run if it's been harmed and feel that it's life has been threatened. If the animal travels too far from its territory, it may choose to return home. If interests conflict, the animal may turn on the caster to the extent that the charmed condition permits.

Animal friendship is like a lot of 5e: cool things with reasonable limitations that aren't always spelled out.


Especially at 1st level, though, Advantage will be significantly more impactful than proficiency or even a high stat on a check to influence the animal.

This is a really good point. If you figure that advantage is imperfectly akin to a +5 bonus to a skill, getting advantage on a skill check is like being handed a proficiency in your best skill (assuming 1st level and +3 bonus for highest stat using point buy).

[hymer]

You've got the wrong comparator here.

That last sentence of MaxWilson's quote is not that important to what he's saying. He's also absolutely right. The DM can of course do whatever s/he likes, but the rules are quite clear here. If you can make animals attack your enemies by casting Animal Friendship, you can also do it with just a regular Handle Animal check.


This is a really good point. If you figure that advantage is imperfectly akin to a +5 bonus to a skill, getting advantage on a skill check is like being handed a proficiency in your best skill (assuming 1st level and +3 bonus for highest stat using point buy).

The problem here is that, as MaxWilson has pointed out, you can't get to a higher total with Advantage than you can without. If your total bonus in a skill is +5, you can at most make DC 25. You're almost twice as likely to do so with Advantage, but if the DC to make the animal do what you want is above 25, Animal Friendship won't make a difference. And if it's 25 or lower, you can get there even without Advantage, albeit at a lower success rate.
So Animal Friendship may make it more practical to get animals to do what you want them to do, because you get advantage, and you can stand next to the animal in safety while you try. But it's nothing you couldn't accomplish without it.

[MaxWilson]

Especially at 1st level, though, Advantage will be significantly more impactful than proficiency or even a high stat on a check to influence the animal.

Honestly, if the DM is going to say you can't persuade a charmed creature to fight for you, he'd argue that anyway, regardless of whether charm is merely advantage on a check or is "anything reasonable for free." Yeah, it's weaker...sort of. But if you think about it, "opposed charisma check to get them to do anything they wouldn't normally" vs. "advantage on all social checks" is not really that big of a difference.

My claim is that Animal Friendship won't do anything that a normal Animal Handling or Persuasion check wouldn't, because all it does is boost your roll slightly. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with that position? The sentence in bold makes it look like you're agreeing, but your tone makes it sound like you're disagreeing.


We're discussing how animal friendship lets you get an animal companion akin to the 3.x druid. Comparing animal friendship to AD&D charm doesn't match up with the initial discussion.

You're right, that was a tangent. I didn't think much about the 3.x angle because I, not having played 3.x, it didn't mean anything to me--but you're definitely right that it was mentioned initially.

[Segev]

My claim is that Animal Friendship won't do anything that a normal Animal Handling or Persuasion check wouldn't, because all it does is boost your roll slightly. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with that position? The sentence in bold makes it look like you're agreeing, but your tone makes it sound like you're disagreeing.

Agreeing in principle, disagreeing with the conclusion you seem to be implying.

Essentially, you're argument is the same one that makes charm effects in any edition a hit-or-miss proposition dependent entirely on the DM. In all honesty, under most DMs I've played (especially the times I've done any sort of organized play), I've found charm effects to be totally useless. Or, in some really annoying examples, actively detrimental to use.

Because they all don't make them do anything "against their nature" (or some variation on that phrase, depending on system and edition), and it seems that anything treating the person who just cast charm on them in any way other than they would have without charm is "against their nature." And, apparently, rolling that opposed charisma check (or pushing it at all) makes them immediately hate you.

And they all know you tried to charm them.


And if you do, in fact, treat charm that way in 5e, yes, animal friendship is useless.


I have no idea what the rules for DCs are in persuading a person to fight for you. It has traditionally been the case in 3.0 and earlier that animal friendship was used to obtain minions and have druids who could command the creatures of the forest to attack their foes.

The implication seemed to be that animal friendship is a useless spell because the skills work anyway. My objection to that was that, assuming the DC hasn't been placed well outside the "bounded accuracy" concept, Advantage should be a huge boon towards hitting it.

[MaxWilson]

Agreeing in principle, disagreeing with the conclusion you seem to be implying.

Essentially, you're argument is the same one that makes charm effects in any edition a hit-or-miss proposition dependent entirely on the DM. In all honesty, under most DMs I've played (especially the times I've done any sort of organized play), I've found charm effects to be totally useless. Or, in some really annoying examples, actively detrimental to use.

Because they all don't make them do anything "against their nature" (or some variation on that phrase, depending on system and edition), and it seems that anything treating the person who just cast charm on them in any way other than they would have without charm is "against their nature." And, apparently, rolling that opposed charisma check (or pushing it at all) makes them immediately hate you.

I don't know what this "against their nature" clause is that you're citing in quotes. 5E has no such clause. Charmed creatures use the normal rules for Persuasion in 5E. If you want to force creatures to act, even in ways consistent with their nature, you have to either use roleplaying and persuasion, or a Suggestion spell.

[Segev]

I don't know what this "against their nature" clause is that you're citing in quotes. 5E has no such clause. Charmed creatures use the normal rules for Persuasion in 5E. If you want to force creatures to act, even in ways consistent with their nature, you have to either use roleplaying and persuasion, or a Suggestion spell.

If you read the context, you'll note I'm referring back to older editions to compare to the 5e version and my reaction to what I perceive as your tone.

[busterswd]

AC 15 with all-day Mage Armor is plenty. A wizard who won't Mage Armor the Moon Druid deserves to get eaten by giant bees. It's the single best use of your first-level slot.

At level 4, the Moon Druid can acquire Sentinel, which either makes him a better tank (in a ranged-heavy party) or doubles his damage output (in a melee-heavy party against opponents who like to ignore the Moon Druid).

At level 5, the Moon Druid unlocks 3rd level spells, especially Conjure Animals. It's better than Fireball.

Yes, a caster with Mage Armor can optimize really well with the Moon Druid; that's not the point, though. The raw power of the Moon Druid starts to not be as overwhelmingly good in relation to the other classes. At level 2? You are singlehandedly ripping your way through encounters that would TPK a party without you. Not as much by level 4, and by level 5, other classes have their own tricks for combat. I'm analyzing the class in a vacuum for the purposes of relative power, not saying that the AC is an insurmountable flaw.

I'm also going to declare something blasphemous: Sentinel is kind of a trap option for the Moon Druid (unless you are a Variant Human). Forced stickiness is great, but keeping concentration up on your spells is way more important past level 5 (as you mentioned, Conjure Animals and other shenanigans). By the time you can get Sentinel at level 4, your wildshape is already starting to become of secondary importance, and your casting is going to be your primary trick until you hit your capstone, unless your DM is very generous with short rests.



Rangers on the other hand... Sharpshooter Hunter Rangers are just awesome. Volley is like at-will Fireball, all day every day. My last campaign just ended (in defeat, for the players) and we're about to start a new one, and I'm considering giving it a military angle where the players occasionally get involved in army fights. If so, the Hunter Ranger will be the MVP of the whole party (whether or not the players actually choose to make a Hunter is on them). In an army fight, the more bad guys you can kill, the more of your comrades you save. A Hunter can kill great whacking lots of enemies all over the battlefield, all day, every day, as long as he has someone to fetch arrows for him. He can do this in additional to his strong personal combat abilities in melee and at range, and with the same terrific Conjure Animals meat tank summoning as a druid. In addition, he has some nifty spells like Ensnaring Strike that control strong enemies and make it easier for everybody to dog-pile them.

The ranger is pretty strong. They're a bit weak in the single-target DPR department unless they're using Conjure Animals, but they have lots of AoEs (Spike Growth, Volley), which is why you should think of them as more like a Fireball archer than an assassin.

Volley is at will Fireball at level 11, which is SIX levels after other casters have been flinging around hefty AoE. Compare this to a Battlemaster Dex Fighter at level 11; he gets more ASIs (so more feats and/or more dex) and he gets a guaranteed 3 attacks per round, regardless of how the enemies are set up. This is before you factor in Superiority die or Action surge for superior novas. In regards to your campaign, a large scale fight with lots and lots of targets clumped together is the sort of thing that's ideal for a hunter. Most encounters aren't going to be like that, hence why I referred to their powers as conditional.

And Conjure Animals is at level 9; at that point, 2 CR worth of non-magic damage beasts isn't nearly as sexy as it was at level 5. You've got to upscale at that point to keep it relevant, which the ranger just can't do.

The way I see the class on paper is that the Hunter Ranger takes a while to even come online, and once it does, its benefits are either niche (but good) or outdated. The Beastmaster is a serious case of "why bother"?

I will, however, be the first to admit that I have very little ranger experience (which will hopefully change pretty soon; planning on building a Hunter when I'm not roped into DMing).

[Aridon]

Surely you jest. At level 7, a Moon Druid can:

(1) Turn himself into a giant ape for huge thrown-boulder damage, once per long rest; AND
(2) Conjure 8 king cobras/wolves/wolf spiders/giant owls/etc. to double the party's action economy and damage output, three times per long rest; AND
(3) Wild shape (as a bonus action) into a giant constrictor snake with 60 HP and AC 12 (15 if Mage Armored) twice per short rest, which is a lot like having the Sentinel feat since now your opportunity attack Restrains whomever you catch. You also have Blindsight so can play tricks similar to a Warlock in heavy obscurement (e.g. cast Fog Cloud and then wildshape, or have someone else cast Darkness); AND
(4) Cast Goodberry/Faerie Fire/Heat Metal/Pass Without Trace/Spike Growth/etc. like a normal caster, if you don't feel like wildshaping right now.

And that's without even considering feats like Sentinel or Mobile, or spells like Call Lightning which are auto-wins in certain terrain. (Or silly cheese tricks with Conjure Woodland Creatures to exploit bad CR-ing of Pixies, because those tricks wouldn't work at my table anyway.)

At level 7, the Moon Druid should be one of the MVPs of the PC team. IMO they don't really start to peter out until level 12 or 13 or so, at which point they kind of plateau for a while while wizards keep getting better at every spell level (Magic Jar => Simulacrum => Clone => Wish). Don't get me wrong, Moon Druids can still do fun stuff at these levels including Planar Binding strike teams of invisible Green Hags who unleash Lightning Bolt x3 from surprise, or Planar Binding a fey T-Rex or Giant Ape to be permanently on your team, and then Animal Shaping your whole strike team into the form of sparrows while a Dryad maintains Pass Without Trace over all of you--all of this is fun and worthwhile, but it's not qualitatively superior IMO to the stuff the Druid was already doing at level 10.

I agree, but I certainly wasn't one of the MVPs during level 7. I have done many of these tactics you mentions (I've never turned into a giant ape, or summoned a bunch of poisonous snakes, so I'll give those a try, thanks.) however, I am now the only healer in our group and I spent a few too many spell slots keeping the team alive during level 7. I think my issue is that I'm playing too many roles in the group. Level 7 was extremely challenging, especially since we only had one long rest and no short rests for almost half of the level. It was run and gun the whole journey and it just wore my resources thin, while the fighters were able to keep going so my usefulness diminished significantly over the adventure. I'm adjusting my tactics to try to spend just a single spell slot per battle and a wild shape and spell in the harder battles, which makes it so I can't heal much. I'm going to use the tactics of healing only when absolutely necessary going forward and see if that helps as well.

Thanks for your input Maxwilson.

[Aridon]

My biggest issue with the Moon Druid is that the Wildshape progression is completely broken (in both directions) as you level. I would much rather have had a stronger, more consistent wildshape progression with half casting; or hell, they should have made the act of Wildshaping consume spell slots, as opposed to this half-assed healing that's more of a trap to use than anything else.

The benchmark I use for relative strength is: if a character existing in a party singlehandedly necessitates a higher level encounter, it's too strong.

By this definition, Moon Druid Wildshape is definitely too strong at levels 2-3. Were the Druid just able to access bear multiattack, it'd already be the best class feature in the game at those levels. Considering they get a 70~ HP buffer on top of that, every short rest, it gets to the point where being able to win fights depends on the druid having shifts left.

By level 4, other classes have unlocked their specialization, multiple level 2 spells (for casters), a less swingy HP pool, potentially their first feat, and better gear; this is the level where the low AC of Wildshape starts to stand out, as they'll be eating damage that won't be reaching other characters. By level 5, other classes start being able to access multiattack/level 3 spells. While the Moon Druid as a class is still a head above the other classes, it's a very strong member of the party, as opposed to singlehandedly determining the party's success.

And then the Moon Druid normalizes a bit. Having that extra HP buffer is always handy, but you're not nearly as good at sustained damage, your spell list is great, but not necessarily better (barring Pixie abuse), and other classes begin to unlock their own features that make them more unique and powerful. You're still a top notch class, but you're not completely overshadowing other classes anymore, and in fact, depend on your party members to get things done.


On the opposite end, if a class feels like you made the wrong decision by picking it because of its sheer relative inferiority, it's too weak. Rangers get conditional, weak benefits that are outclassed by other classes's baselines in return for neutered half casting. I'm not experienced with the class, but I don't think there's ever a point where the class comes into its own.

Well said, this has matched my experience with the class, and explains why I think the class fundamentally changes around level 6 from a tank class to a caster class, at least until level 10, when Elementals might change it back. That is one thing I love about the Moon Druid, it seems to require a different play style and tactics every few levels.

[Malifice]

Still better than Paladin 1.

Agree. They're Fighters without a fighting style, and a far worse healing power.

Again, things improve drasically at 2nd level.

[MeeposFire]

Well it could be worse they could be playing a 1st level ranger. THey also get better as they level but 1st level is not the best.

[Malifice]

1st level dissapears after a single session so its not a massive deal, and 2nd level more than makes up for it.

[BootStrapTommy]

Druid level 2 gets Wild Shape, probably the most powerful feature in the game. Why is the second level of Cleric so horrible?

/sWhat the dinosaur said.

[hymer]

I'm also going to declare something blasphemous: Sentinel is kind of a trap option for the Moon Druid

It's a definite downside to moon druids that they have to spread their resources between wild shape and spells. If wild shapes were uniformly good all the way to 20, you'd be laughing. But as you note, they aren't. So there are a lot of times when the moon druid will play like a poor man's land druid, with a bunch of feats for melee use. I've said this sort of thing before, but it's worth saying again.

The land druid's advancement is far smoother, with a new spell level every two levels to look forward to, and nearly all spell levels have something worth casting. You don't get moon druid levels 2-4, 10-11 and 18+, where moon druids can be a load of fun, or at least a load of power. But you do get level 3+ as a generally nice experience, and you're not exactly bad off at the first two levels.

I suppose you could pick your ASIs as a moon druid as if you were a land druid, and mostly use your wild shape as an emergency button in combat (and utility out of combat). And it's a pretty strong emergency button, with a large pile of hp available on a bonus action. But if you've gone that far, why not just pick land druid and play to your strengths?

The situation may change somewhat with future splat, if we get more beast shapes, especially CR 4+.

[Talamare]

Agree. They're Fighters without a fighting style, and a far worse healing power.

Again, things improve drasically at 2nd level.

Far worse you say? I don't remember Second Wind removing Diseases~
Removing a Disease is a Lv2 Spell

(Nah, yea Pally1 is a joke)

[JellyPooga]

Well it could be worse they could be playing a 1st level ranger. THey also get better as they level but 1st level is not the best.

At least Rangers get a couple of extra languages...

[SharkForce]

polymorph is like a healing spell. a very powerful one, really.

turn someone into a giant ape. i'm afb, but as i recall that's a bit over 140 HP they just got. now, they won't actually have a good AC to pair with that unless further resources are spent, but even if they get hit twice as often that's like a 70 point heal on top of making their at-will attacks far more potent.

[busterswd]

I suppose you could pick your ASIs as a moon druid as if you were a land druid, and mostly use your wild shape as an emergency button in combat (and utility out of combat). And it's a pretty strong emergency button, with a large pile of hp available on a bonus action. But if you've gone that far, why not just pick land druid and play to your strengths?

I'm sure this was mildly rhetorical, but the short answer is because low level Wildshape is THAT good (and gets you through the usually painful low level caster status), mid level Wildshape is still serviceable (if underwhelming), and the Land druid features are don't really compare. And the level 18/20 Druid features are essentially tailor made for Moon.

Natural Recovery is one of the larger selling points of Land, but it's once per long rest; essentially, you're getting an extra use of a mid level spell slot, generally at points where spell slots have ceased to become scarce. (ie: a level 9 druid gets an additional level 3 or 4 slot, but he already has 3 castings of each).

Domain spells are great, but redundant; you're already a class with full access to your casting list every long rest, so always having extra spells prepped from your list can be handy, but not necessary in most situations. You do unlock fun spells like Web or Haste, but your biggest issue as a druid caster is always going to be concentration, not options. Haste means you're not swarming enemies with angry singing owls.

Meanwhile, a Moon Druid can offtank in a pinch, has access to a decent melee option, and can give himself an on-demand HP buffer if he gets swarmed. It's like constantly having a Contingency -Polymorph up that doesn't require spell slots.

In a vacuum, the Land Druid is a solid class. It's just that Moon Druid existing makes Land so much less attractive.

[Theodoxus]

In a vacuum, the Land Druid is a solid class. It's just that Moon Druid existing makes Land so much less attractive.

Totally depends on your playstyle and what you want to accomplish. I find Land more interesting (I've yet to play a druid of either stripe) - but that might be because I've been in (and run) games with Moon Druids convinced the class was the epitome of badass, and just ended up missing miserably in bear form, and never managing to web anything as a giant spider...

On paper, the forms are amazing. In practice, they're demonstrably worse than a mediocre fighter.

[BootStrapTommy]

Totally depends on your playstyle and what you want to accomplish. I find Land more interesting (I've yet to play a druid of either stripe) - but that might be because I've been in (and run) games with Moon Druids convinced the class was the epitome of badass, and just ended up missing miserably in bear form, and never managing to web anything as a giant spider...

On paper, the forms are amazing. In practice, they're demonstrably worse than a mediocre fighter.Moon Druids' strength isn't dealing damage anyway. It's taking damage.

[MeeposFire]

I'm sure this was mildly rhetorical, but the short answer is because low level Wildshape is THAT good (and gets you through the usually painful low level caster status), mid level Wildshape is still serviceable (if underwhelming), and the Land druid features are don't really compare. And the level 18/20 Druid features are essentially tailor made for Moon.

Natural Recovery is one of the larger selling points of Land, but it's once per long rest; essentially, you're getting an extra use of a mid level spell slot, generally at points where spell slots have ceased to become scarce. (ie: a level 9 druid gets an additional level 3 or 4 slot, but he already has 3 castings of each).

Domain spells are great, but redundant; you're already a class with full access to your casting list every long rest, so always having extra spells prepped from your list can be handy, but not necessary in most situations. You do unlock fun spells like Web or Haste, but your biggest issue as a druid caster is always going to be concentration, not options. Haste means you're not swarming enemies with angry singing owls.

Meanwhile, a Moon Druid can offtank in a pinch, has access to a decent melee option, and can give himself an on-demand HP buffer if he gets swarmed. It's like constantly having a Contingency -Polymorph up that doesn't require spell slots.

In a vacuum, the Land Druid is a solid class. It's just that Moon Druid existing makes Land so much less attractive.

I was disappointed that land druids do not get a boost to cantrips like clerics or a boost to melee attacks (and thus make shillelagh relevant after 5 the level for a straight druid).

[SharkForce]

Moon Druids' strength isn't dealing damage anyway. It's taking damage.

you need to do something to make enemies care enough to deal damage to you before the ability to take damage is relevant.

[Malifice]

Moon Druids' strength isn't dealing damage anyway. It's taking damage.

Two levels of Paladin fix this.

The smiting bear.

[busterswd]

Totally depends on your playstyle and what you want to accomplish. I find Land more interesting (I've yet to play a druid of either stripe) - but that might be because I've been in (and run) games with Moon Druids convinced the class was the epitome of badass, and just ended up missing miserably in bear form, and never managing to web anything as a giant spider...

On paper, the forms are amazing. In practice, they're demonstrably worse than a mediocre fighter.

Well, that's my original point in the thread. To sum it up, Wildshape scaling is fubared, and Moon Druids get way too much casting. They're like like Land Druids with one less mid level spell slot and less prepped spells in exchange for a huge, non-concentration HP boost when they need it (and not insignificant melee capability). It's a tradeoff that even a dedicated caster would find beneficial.

In about 80% of situations, if I wanted to focus on casting, Moon would be the better choice. That's not to say some of the domain spells aren't super tempting (Grassland and Underdark in particular), but the druid spell list is already so versatile that you don't lose out on much by forgoing them.


I was disappointed that land druids do not get a boost to cantrips like clerics or a boost to melee attacks (and thus make shillelagh relevant after 5 the level for a straight druid).

Something that rewarded not being shifted would've been great.


you need to do something to make enemies care enough to deal damage to you before the ability to take damage is relevant.
Druid spell list manages to do that nicely; you need to hit the druid to make the hurting/crowd control stop. There's also non damage focused forms that are well worth enemy attention, like Giant Constrictor.

[SharkForce]

i think the land druid tradeoff isn't so bad at first. a bonus cantrip (and druids have a very nice cantrip list), access to some non-druid spells and extra prepared spells, and a bit of extra spellcasting per day (and this doesn't have to be their highest level spell slot, druids can do some pretty danged useful things with level 1-3 spells*), immunity to poison and disease... really, those aren't bad at all.

and particularly since for a fairly extended period of time wild shape isn't *that* great because you can't cast in it. you're definitely behind at certain levels (2-4 being particularly noticeable and level 10 being pretty great for a moon druid but not that awe-inspiring for a land druid).

but i mean, if you hit level 18 than being anything but a moon druid feels wasted. if you actually manage to hit level 20, moon druid becomes this nigh-unstoppable force while land druid is like "uhh... hey guys, look, i can turn into all kinds of small animals as often as i want, that's competitive with being able to refresh HP as an earth or air elemental with full druid spellcasting, right?" and the land druid level 14 feature is almost like not having a class feature at all. i mean, how often do you really find yourself struggling with beasts and plants at level 14?

but while there is that ridiculous power spike at 2-4 for land druids, i have to say i feel the biggest difference definitely comes later on with land druid, and especially at the really late levels where the class features synergize ridiculously with moon druids and are just minor footnotes for a land druid.

* some particular examples of level 1-3 druid spells that can make a major difference in a fight: entangle, faerie fire, heat metal, moonbeam, spike growth, call lightning, conjure animals, dispel magic, plant growth, sleet storm, speak with plants (did you know that you can explicitly make your entangle spell release allies with this non-concentration spell, in addition to creating or removing difficult terrain anywhere that has plants?), and wall of water, and outside of a fight lesser restoration, pass without trace, protection from poison (can help within fights, but ideally you cast it before the fight starts), and find traps. so at level 9, getting 5 spell levels worth of spells could actually be enough to get you through a full extra 2 fights potentially.

[busterswd]

i think the land druid tradeoff isn't so bad at first. a bonus cantrip (and druids have a very nice cantrip list), access to some non-druid spells and extra prepared spells, and a bit of extra spellcasting per day (and this doesn't have to be their highest level spell slot, druids can do some pretty danged useful things with level 1-3 spells*), immunity to poison and disease... really, those aren't bad at all.

and particularly since for a fairly extended period of time wild shape isn't *that* great because you can't cast in it. you're definitely behind at certain levels (2-4 being particularly noticeable and level 10 being pretty great for a moon druid but not that awe-inspiring for a land druid).

but i mean, if you hit level 18 than being anything but a moon druid feels wasted. if you actually manage to hit level 20, moon druid becomes this nigh-unstoppable force while land druid is like "uhh... hey guys, look, i can turn into all kinds of small animals as often as i want, that's competitive with being able to refresh HP as an earth or air elemental with full druid spellcasting, right?" and the land druid level 14 feature is almost like not having a class feature at all. i mean, how often do you really find yourself struggling with beasts and plants at level 14?

but while there is that ridiculous power spike at 2-4 for land druids, i have to say i feel the biggest difference definitely comes later on with land druid, and especially at the really late levels where the class features synergize ridiculously with moon druids and are just minor footnotes for a land druid.

* some particular examples of level 1-3 druid spells that can make a major difference in a fight: entangle, faerie fire, heat metal, moonbeam, spike growth, call lightning, conjure animals, dispel magic, plant growth, sleet storm, speak with plants (did you know that you can explicitly make your entangle spell release allies with this non-concentration spell, in addition to creating or removing difficult terrain anywhere that has plants?), and wall of water, and outside of a fight lesser restoration, pass without trace, protection from poison (can help within fights, but ideally you cast it before the fight starts), and find traps. so at level 9, getting 5 spell levels worth of spells could actually be enough to get you through a full extra 2 fights potentially.

Good point about recovering multiple lower level spell slots; druids do have a crap ton of encounter-resolving spells that happen to scale nicely. I will point out a few things, though: firstly, that you can't necessarily plan for short rests, so you're not always going to be able to optimize what slots you get back. Secondly, this feature only ultimately matters in a situation where the adventuring day is drawing on long enough for you to be running on empty; in those sorts of situations, Moon Druids tend to have much better overall staying power, assuming you're not being screwed on short rests.

Land is probably a bit better than I'm giving it credit for, but it seems like an afterthought to me.

[SharkForce]

if you're not getting at least one short rest per day, you pretty much just want to be able to cast spells all the time anyways. that implies either a 5-minute adventuring day (beware, lest ye summon the wrath of malifice upon thyself!) or the 5-minute adventuring day where the one fight is a quadruple-deadly encounter (in which case, unless you're in one of the moon druid powerspikes, quit goofing around and turn back into something that can spam your most powerful spells as something other than a few points of self-healing).

[MaxWilson]

if you're not getting at least one short rest per day, you pretty much just want to be able to cast spells all the time anyways. that implies either a 5-minute adventuring day (beware, lest ye summon the wrath of malifice upon thyself!) or the 5-minute adventuring day where the one fight is a quadruple-deadly encounter (in which case, unless you're in one of the moon druid powerspikes, quit goofing around and turn back into something that can spam your most powerful spells as something other than a few points of self-healing).

There are a few other potential variations. You could have an 24-hour adventuring day where you're being hounded without rest (e.g. chased by a zombie horde). You could have a widely-varying adventuring day where every half-hour has a 50% chance of random encounters, and you never know how many more encounters will occur, and sometimes you don't get short rests just due to chance. You could have a 55-minute adventuring day where you kick down a door and have 6 fights in a row as you're blitzing the enemy building/dungeon/whatever, like Captain America assaulting a terrorist-controlled cargo ship to free hostages, but still with enough guaranteed separation between the fights to not be one giant encounter.

Especially when you don't know how many encounters will happen, you have an incentive not to blow your most powerful spell slots unnecessarily.

[busterswd]

if you're not getting at least one short rest per day, you pretty much just want to be able to cast spells all the time anyways. that implies either a 5-minute adventuring day (beware, lest ye summon the wrath of malifice upon thyself!) or the 5-minute adventuring day where the one fight is a quadruple-deadly encounter (in which case, unless you're in one of the moon druid powerspikes, quit goofing around and turn back into something that can spam your most powerful spells as something other than a few points of self-healing).

But in the 5 minute adventuring days, or the extra deadly encounter, I'd much rather have wildshape as a panic button. If you're figuring 0 short rests, then Moon/Land have identical spells per day. As long as you have a concentration spell ticking (and the feats to maintain it), it's generally better for you to be in wildshape.

I've almost never used the healing feature on Moon, because by the time you actually might need more HP in your wildshape forms, your spells are more valuable.

[SharkForce]

But in the 5 minute adventuring days, or the extra deadly encounter, I'd much rather have wildshape as a panic button. If you're figuring 0 short rests, then Moon/Land have identical spells per day. As long as you have a concentration spell ticking (and the feats to maintain it), it's generally better for you to be in wildshape.

I've almost never used the healing feature on Moon, because by the time you actually might need more HP in your wildshape forms, your spells are more valuable.

while in wild shape form, you can't use your spell slots. the land druid can.

so while your moon druid is goofing around with a sustained conjure animals and being a scorpion on the front lines, the land druid is sustaining conjure animals, can conjure replacements without losing a wild shape, and can spam spells like eruption or snilloc's snowball swarm as needed. and retains access to the mobility and utility that wild shape offers, for the most part.

if you're having one cataclysmic encounter, you don't want to be using what amounts to a cantrip (an action that costs no resources other than actions and has a low impact as a result). you want to throw the biggest thing you have at the fight.

[Malifice]

while in wild shape form, you can't use your spell slots. the land druid can.

Nah man. That's a feature both druids get at like 18th level (from memory).

Moon druids can use slots from 2nd as a bonus action in beast form to heal.

[Steampunkette]

Druids compare better to Bards, not Clerics.

[Tanarii]

Nah man. That's a feature both druids get at like 18th level (from memory).

Moon druids can use slots from 2nd as a bonus action in beast form to heal.

He means Land Druids can cast spells, because they aren't *in* wild shape form, so they're dropping all sorts of bad-assness on the battle. Meanwhile Moon Druids are sitting there in Wild-shape form being cantrip level effective, apart from soaking up hit point damage, assuming they're actually being attacked.

Obviously, situation isn't the same out of a Nova-strike 1 battle/day situation. But that's a situation that breaks the game in tons of ways anyway, so discussing how it breaks the balance between Land and Moon druids seems kind of weird direction to take things. ;)