Rules Question: "Haunting Mists" - How does it work?

[heinrich]

Hi, some questions here...

1. How do you handle illusions, anyway?
It is kind of a broad topic, but someone pointed out in a doc about the perfect bard build, that the higher level an illusion is, the more senses are affected - equalling more ways to interact with the illusion and therefore grant a disbelief check...

Do you think that is true, or not? Or only in some cases?

2. About "Haunting Mists"
The Bard Build Guide gave this spell a good score. For the area of effect is decent and it provides concealment as well as slowing characters down (due to sight) and debuffing them. It affects all creatures, including allies, but not the caster. I mean all illusion confuse the minds of others, as per illusion definition at the d20pfsrd page. So the sight of the caster should not be hindered and the secondary effects should not appear.

So, what about the casters allies? If they know from experience that the haunting mists are an illusion, would that allow them a disbelief check before entering the mists or right at casting if they are in the area of effect? Since it is a figment it remains translucent even if disbelieved, so does it still hinder sight and provide concealment?

Is simply running into the mists interaction enough to gain a disbelieve check or does one only get the save for the secondary effects?
I mean, it isn't as if the figment was trying to imitate any physical being or object, that you can make out as illusion rather than a necromancy or evocation effect..

Would one get an automatic disbelieve check if one used "detect magic" to discern the school of an illusion spell ?

Interested in what your opinions are...

[Biguds]

As I'm playing a Umbral Mesmerist right now, let me try this.

1. How do you handle illusions, anyway?

By Ilusion School description, an ilusion spell affect whatever senses that are pointed in it's text.
Our group go by Taste, Touch, Smell, Visual and Auditory. So, an illusion that make darkness (like Haunting Mists) will not affect anithing other than your sight (darkvision, low-light vision).
About disbelief:


Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

With that in mind...

2. About "Haunting Mists"


An illusion of misty vapor inhabited by shadowy shapes arises around you. It is stationary. The illusory mist obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target). All creatures within the mist must save or take 1d2 points of Wisdom damage and gain the shaken condition. The shaken condition lasts as long as the creature remains in the mist.

IMO, everyone is affected by first half of the spell (the darkness), save the caster (I supose the caster always know that his illusions are... illusions). Even the caster's allies will need to Save for Disbelief when they interact with it.
The second half of the spell (the Wis damage and Shaken condition) apply to everyone in the area (even the caster and allies) for as long they stay there (Shaken).

"So, what about the casters allies? If they know from experience that the haunting mists are an illusion, would that allow them a disbelief check before entering the mists or right at casting if they are in the area of effect?"

I think that any ally that know beforehand that you had this spell prepared, it's effects and/or any that pass a Spellcraft can roll vs Disbelieve.

"Since it is a figment it remains translucent even if disbelieved, so does it still hinder sight and provide concealment?"

The illusion stay there, translucent, without obscuring any sight. (Make a funny scene with some allies and enemies that can and others that cannot see).

"Is simply running into the mists interaction enough to gain a disbelieve check or does one only get the save for the secondary effects?"

IMO, yes it is. But staying outside looking at it will not.

"Would one get an automatic disbelieve check if one used "detect magic" to discern the school of an illusion spell ?"

I'd say yes.

Sorry about the bad english, folks.

[Psyren]

Haunting Mists does not have a Disbelief save. It is a [shadow] illusion, aka partially real, so it is really obscuring your vision. The will save is only to prevent the Wis damage portion of it, and it acts like a no-save fog otherwise. Knowing it's an illusion doesn't actually do anything.

[heinrich]

I don't think so.
In the []-bracets are the descriptors - fear and shadow - not the illusion type. That is in the ()-bracets and is figment.

Since the spell is always centered around the caster, the caster would in the moment of casting always need to make a save against the spell. That would make the spell rather stupid. Shouldn't the illusion general rule "Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others." make the caster immune to his own spell?

Does the "Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)" paragraph only apply if the saving throw entry reads "(disbelief)" ?

[Psyren]

Does the "Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)" paragraph only apply if the saving throw entry reads "(disbelief)" ?

Yes, you can only disbelieve illusions that can be disbelieved :smalltongue:

Also, the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club.

Not all illusions are subject to disbelief. For example, you can't disbelieve a Color Spray - knowing it's an illusion doesn't do a thing to help you. Similarly, you can't disbelieve a Mirror Image (which is incidentally another figment) - knowing that some of the caster copies you're facing are illusions doesn't make them go translucent.

[heinrich]

Well, maybe the "Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)" paragraph then should state, that it only applies it "save (disbelief)" is in the spell entry, and is not applied to all illusions, even if the paragraph is a subsection of the illusion section.

[Florian]

Well, maybe the "Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)" paragraph then should state, that it only applies it "save (disbelief)" is in the spell entry, and is not applied to all illusions, even if the paragraph is a subsection of the illusion section.

Why should it? The paragraph only states what happens when a disbelieve saving throw is made, nothing else.



Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

[heinrich]

Why should it? The paragraph only states what happens when a disbelieve saving throw is made, nothing else.That is exactly my point. It only states when what happen "what happens when a disbelieve saving throw is made" but doesn't clarify that not all illusions can be disbeliefed, but only those with that specific entry. The wording in which i is written and the context and framing section of the text can easily be understood in a way that this is a general rule for all illusions.
So, the text would benefit from a clarification or reference to the saving throw section later in the text that states, that you only can make a disbeliefe saving throw, if a spell offers that option.

[Florian]

That is exactly my point. It only states when what happen "what happens when a disbelieve saving throw is made" but doesn't clarify that not all illusions can be disbeliefed, but only those with that specific entry. The wording in which i is written and the context and framing section of the text can easily be understood in a way that this is a general rule for all illusions.
So, the text would benefit from a clarification or reference to the saving throw section later in the text that states, that you only can make a disbeliefe saving throw, if a spell offers that option.

While I do get where you want to go with this, a general rule on how to handle Illusion school spells, that´s not how that works as the spells themselves do provide a much more differentiated handling.

[Psyren]

For the reasons I stated above, my stance remains that this only applies to illusions with a Disbelief save. You can't disbelieve Color Spray, Illusory Script, or Mad Hallucination, and you can't disbelieve this.

[heinrich]

Not arguing that 'haunting mists' can't be disbelieved.
Just pointing out, that the way the supposedly general rules are presented on d20pfsrd are lacking the information, that they aren't in fact generally applicable to the spell types in which section they are presented.

[Florian]

Not arguing that 'haunting mists' can't be disbelieved.
Just pointing out, that the way the supposedly general rules are presented on d20pfsrd are lacking the information, that they aren't in fact generally applicable to the spell types in which section they are presented.

Well, d20pfsrd is a third-party site that is not meant to replace your access to the rule books themselves.