Polymorph, or, "Did that man just turn the half-orc into a T-Rex?!"

[oxybe]

Am I reading polymorph correctly in that, now that the party is level 8, I can give the party facebeater a ~140HP buffer with a rather strong multi-attack via Polymorph > Trex?

That seems kinda... borked. I couldn't find any errata that would point otherwise though.

I know that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, but that's several tons of prevention. like... max hp on all 10 levels of an 18 con fighter huge. I would say the HP and potential damage is enough to either clutch out a last minute save or secure a decisive 1st/2nd turn.

Am I just blindsided by the glorious majesty of being capable of turning myself (or the most likely target, the fighter/paladin/barb/anyone in melee) into a mothraflipping T-Rex or is this spell as good as I imagine (outside the "i turn into a rat/pigeon/carp and listen in on conversations or scout out an area" applications)?

[Shaofoo]

While you technically could do note that the DM has the final right to say what monster exists in the game and thus what can you actually polymorph plus you can't tell what you can polymorph into since Challenge Rating is not a stat that is known to you.

The spell should be tempered through the DM, a player can't open the MM and cherry pick what creature he can turn into.

It is only powerful if you give free reign, just like Wish is infinitely powerful if the DM just says yes to everything without any catch.

[Daishain]

Polymorph has always been a powerful spell, and this edition is no different. Its also powerful offensively, and provides a convenient means of capturing dangerous enemies.

Bear in mind, the subject assumes all of the chosen creatures attributes, including mental scores. That half orc you buffed? Can probably now much more easily be turned against you via enchantment.

[Daishain]

While you technically could do note that the DM has the final right to say what monster exists in the game and thus what can you actually polymorph plus you can't tell what you can polymorph into since Challenge Rating is not a stat that is known to you.

The spell should be tempered through the DM, a player can't open the MM and cherry pick what creature he can turn into.

It is only powerful if you give free reign, just like Wish is infinitely powerful if the DM just says yes to everything without any catch.
Whether or not the caster is aware of CR, in order for the spell to be useful, he must be aware of what creatures he can choose from at some level. Likewise, while the DM certainly has free reign over what creatures exist in his campaign world, he would have to talk fast to justify characters having never come into contact with powerful beasts throughout the planes.

To put it another way, while the DM can and should prevent absurdly OP uses, he would have to pull significant shenanigans to nerf this spell to the point that it isn't among the most powerful tools in a mage's arsenal.

[JellyPooga]

Bear in mind, the subject assumes all of the chosen creatures attributes, including mental scores.

This is important. Whilst the spell doesn't change the personality of the target, per se, in as much as the target still gets to choose what to do, but I do consider it to change the targets outlook and instincts.

Turn your buddy into a t-rex? Your buddy now just sees you as another fleshy meat-bag full of tasty goodness. Good luck persuading his Int 2 reasoning that you're his friend.

Turning friendlies into "pack" animals is probably a safer bet; their instincts are social in nature, so their personality will identify you as "friend" and not a "target". Turning a friendly into a loner-type alpha predator, though? That's just asking for a no-holds-barred rampage that includes you on the "target" list...

[Lines]

This is important. Whilst the spell doesn't change the personality of the target, per se, in as much as the target still gets to choose what to do, but I do consider it to change the targets outlook and instincts.

Turn your buddy into a t-rex? Your buddy now just sees you as another fleshy meat-bag full of tasty goodness. Good luck persuading his Int 2 reasoning that you're his friend.

Turning friendlies into "pack" animals is probably a safer bet; their instincts are social in nature, so their personality will identify you as "friend" and not a "target". Turning a friendly into a loner-type alpha predator, though? That's just asking for a no-holds-barred rampage that includes you on the "target" list...

How does that make sense? It reduces their intelligence, so they won't be able to perform complex tasks, but retaining their alignment and personality means they'll still be on your side.

'Good luck persuading his int 2 reasoning that you're his friend' - he knows you're his friend. He knew you were his friend before the transformation, he just has animal intelligence now - are you trying to say animals can't recognise or remember people?

[Shaofoo]

Whether or not the caster is aware of CR, in order for the spell to be useful, he must be aware of what creatures he can choose from at some level. Likewise, while the DM certainly has free reign over what creatures exist in his campaign world, he would have to talk fast to justify characters having never come into contact with powerful beasts throughout the planes.

To put it another way, while the DM can and should prevent absurdly OP uses, he would have to pull significant shenanigans to nerf this spell to the point that it isn't among the most powerful tools in a mage's arsenal.

There is very little justification there to be needed. Would the character in question know what a T Rex is? Did he ever see, look or even heard what is a T Rex? Would even hearing what is a T Rex be enough?

The player will have to be the one to justify why would he say that he wishes to turn into a T Rex in a world where dinosaurs do not exist or ever existed. The DM doesn't have to talk fast to justify what the players know, the players will have to talk fast to justify why would he know such a thing. A player can easily not into contact with the other planes (Plane shifting is 100% handled by the DM regardless if you use a spell or not).

The spell is powerful but it does not give you the right to flip through the MM and cherry pick monsters of your choice.

Also since you retain alignment and personality a lawful good person that respects life will probably still respect life even if he was turned into a T Rex, of course the Chaotic Stup... I mean neutral person turned into a T Rex will use the chance to go in a rampage.

[Malifice]

Is 140 HP really that big a deal at level 8 anyways? Going by average damage for CR 8 monsters, that wouldnt last more than an encounter or two.

It also uses your concentration slot, limits the abilities you can use in that form.

Flashy, but I wouldnt call it broken.

[Gnomes2169]

It does lower your AC and (generally) saves as well, since most beasts don't seem too have proficiency with saving throws of any kind. So your T-Rex buddy might have a lot of ablative HP... but that HP will be drained quite a lot faster, they are more susceptible to spells and other effects, and the loss of class features potentially makes the character deal less damage. Not likely on that last part at level 8, but still potentially a problem.

[Talamare]

Meanwhile, Druids are transforming into T-rexes non stop... Well, at least Allosaurs, which are like mini Rex

[Daishain]

There is very little justification there to be needed. Would the character in question know what a T Rex is? Did he ever see, look or even heard what is a T Rex? Would even hearing what is a T Rex be enough?I was speaking in general, and I did not imply that a dm couldn't eliminate options that don't make sense. A T Rex is an extreme example in most campaign settings (though by no means all, dinosaurs are actually quite common in settings like Eberron) Could you use the same reasoning to justify banning bears? Or giant eagles? The bloody things are ubiquitous. And in the event that the setting in question features none of the beasts found in the MM, could you justify the ecosystem being so decrepit such that no other creatures have risen to fill those niches?

Bear in mind (no pun intended), that the more... exotic the location, the more likely the characters involved are planewalkers to some degree, and planewalkers tend to see a hell of a lot.

[oxybe]

There is very little justification there to be needed. Would the character in question know what a T Rex is? Did he ever see, look or even heard what is a T Rex? Would even hearing what is a T Rex be enough?

The player will have to be the one to justify why would he say that he wishes to turn into a T Rex in a world where dinosaurs do not exist or ever existed. The DM doesn't have to talk fast to justify what the players know, the players will have to talk fast to justify why would he know such a thing. A player can easily not into contact with the other planes (Plane shifting is 100% handled by the DM regardless if you use a spell or not).

The spell is powerful but it does not give you the right to flip through the MM and cherry pick monsters of your choice.

Also since you retain alignment and personality a lawful good person that respects life will probably still respect life even if he was turned into a T Rex, of course the Chaotic Stup... I mean neutral person turned into a T Rex will use the chance to go in a rampage.

Well, my wizard is a collegiate student of the transmutation school and his singular motivation for adventuring was "i want to go back to college where it's safe" after a magical misfire dropped him into the underdark for months on end, woefully unprepared... to the point where when he managed to finally get outside and back to the college the GM told me that he's probably at the skill level of his former teachers.

So if anyone asks he took the "Transmutation 411 - Advanced Shapechanging w/ Archmage Referi Gerator" class during the 3 months downtime our GM gave us as he got to complete his thesis, graduate and got unceremoniously shipped back to the underdark again as a "Rare Magics of the Underdark Research Correspondent" (which was basically what he was doing the last few months thanks to the Sending spell he learned), which is wizard talk for "Reassigned to Antarctica" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReassignedToAntarctica).

:smalltongue:

[MaxWilson]

It's worth noting that the sine qua non of Polymorph is the fact that you get all your HP back at the end of it. If Polymorph just turned you into a T-Rex, like it would have in 2nd edition, and once you drop to 0 HP you have a dead T-Rex... it would be considered a decent but rather meh spell. A T-Rex isn't actually more useful than a mid-level Fighter. However, a T-Rex and a fighter are both more useful than a single 4th level spell slot--so you can think of Polymorph as kind of like a low-level, short-term Simulacrum spell. It lets you have your cake (T-Rex) and eat it (Fighter) too. Or, erm, you know what I mean.

[Gnomes2169]

It's worth noting that the sine qua non of Polymorph is the fact that you get all your HP back at the end of it. If Polymorph just turned you into a T-Rex, like it would have in 2nd edition, and once you drop to 0 HP you have a dead T-Rex... it would be considered a decent but rather meh spell. A T-Rex isn't actually more useful than a mid-level Fighter. However, a T-Rex and a fighter are both more useful than a single 4th level spell slot--so you can think of Polymorph as kind of like a low-level, short-term Simulacrum spell. It lets you have your cake (T-Rex) and eat it (Fighter) too. Or, erm, you know what I mean.

Disclaimer; Wizards of the Coast(tm) does not sponsor feeding your fighter to your T-Rex, or visa versa. If you find yourself in a situation where you look upon your fighter with half of a T-Rex jutting from his mouth, please consult your nearest cleric for an exorcism.

[unwise]

Is Polymorph the spell that also gives you the mental stats of the thing you are being turned into? I always found that one weird. You can polymorph into a spider to scout, get Int 1, forget what you were doing and decide to eat some flies until the spell wears off.

If you turn into something like a T-Rex, I hope the plan was a simple one involving chomping everything in front of you.

I'm not very familiar with the spell, if it just gives you their stat-block, why are we looking at casting it on somebody who is already a good fighter? Why not put it on the Wizard who wants to keep their spells for later, or the Life Cleric when nobody needs healing?

[RickAllison]

Is Polymorph the spell that also gives you the mental stats of the thing you are being turned into? I always found that one weird. You can polymorph into a spider to scout, get Int 1, forget what you were doing and decide to eat some flies until the spell wears off.

If you turn into something like a T-Rex, I hope the plan was a simple one involving chomping everything in front of you.

You are correct. That is why Giant Ape is often preferred to the T-Rex, as he has a higher INT than a lot of rolled characters :smallwink:

[Sigreid]

Is Polymorph the spell that also gives you the mental stats of the thing you are being turned into? I always found that one weird. You can polymorph into a spider to scout, get Int 1, forget what you were doing and decide to eat some flies until the spell wears off.

If you turn into something like a T-Rex, I hope the plan was a simple one involving chomping everything in front of you.

This is somewhat open to interpretation. It can be interpreted as either "Congrats, your a spider. Enjoy your flies." or you are still essentially you (that whole alignment and personality thing) but now you are trying to use your mind to drive a spiders brain. Kind of like if you try to run a computer program on a computer that doesn't meet it's minimum specs. It can kinda do it, but it's slow and will derp if anything is not just right in the code, hence you're mental saving throws are borked.

[Shaofoo]

I was speaking in general, and I did not imply that a dm couldn't eliminate options that don't make sense. A T Rex is an extreme example in most campaign settings (though by no means all, dinosaurs are actually quite common in settings like Eberron) Could you use the same reasoning to justify banning bears? Or giant eagles? The bloody things are ubiquitous. And in the event that the setting in question features none of the beasts found in the MM, could you justify the ecosystem being so decrepit such that no other creatures have risen to fill those niches?

You can justify anything in the DM's world. Bears and eagles don't have to exist either. Just because it is common in other worlds doesn't mean that it has to exist in the DM's world.

Now any creature that does exist should be fair play but my point still is you can't go to the MM and pick and choose, you should ask your DM about what you can choose.



Bear in mind (no pun intended), that the more... exotic the location, the more likely the characters involved are planewalkers to some degree, and planewalkers tend to see a hell of a lot.

I don't believe in this. You can be native to said exotic location, there is nothing that says that only high level characters can go to exotic locations. Also conversely that high level characters can move between planes is something guaranteed (Moving is 100% DM dependant, you need an expensive magic component that needs to be attuned to a specific plane to be able to planeshift). Maybe in your games and in certain established settings that is the pattern but it isn't an universal truth.


Well, my wizard is a collegiate student of the transmutation school and his singular motivation for adventuring was "i want to go back to college where it's safe" after a magical misfire dropped him into the underdark for months on end, woefully unprepared... to the point where when he managed to finally get outside and back to the college the GM told me that he's probably at the skill level of his former teachers.

So if anyone asks he took the "Transmutation 411 - Advanced Shapechanging w/ Archmage Referi Gerator" class during the 3 months downtime our GM gave us as he got to complete his thesis, graduate and got unceremoniously shipped back to the underdark again as a "Rare Magics of the Underdark Research Correspondent" (which was basically what he was doing the last few months thanks to the Sending spell he learned), which is wizard talk for "Reassigned to Antarctica" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReassignedToAntarctica).

:smalltongue:

As I said before, you can justify if you've seen the creature but that doesn't mean that you can look into the MM and pick and choose. Even if the creature does exist the stats presented might not match the monster in question. The DM can freely modify any stats in the MM as he sees fit.

You can give your justification but the DM will have final say as to what is or isn't allowed in his world.

[Slipperychicken]

I still think monster knowledge should be resolved with knowledge checks. If it exists in the campaign's universe, you can roll to know about it. If it's far away from your hometown, then it's a higher DC. If your PC is a stupid or ignorant person, that is already reflected in his intelligence modifier and lack of proficiency, and no further penalty needs to be applied.


Protip for Players: Make your PCs longtime travelers who have seen much of the world and spoken with people near and far. That makes it easier to justify knowledge to your GM. Also prepare more than one flavor-text to explain your knowledge (i.e. heard it from a lonely traveler, saw it on the road, heard a story at a campfire, read it in a book, a friend or lover spoke of it once, a drunken professor blathered it at you while you shared a carriage, etc etc etc). Also, many things can be picked up on a month-long boat ride that happens to be carrying a historian or a wizard. With luck, your flavor-text might amuse the GM; this may make him less resentful about having to tell you stuff that's useful.

[HarrisonF]

With so few options for turning into, I would presume that any decent Wizard school would have a half-hour lecture on the best Polymorph options. They could even cast it for demonstration, so you can see what a T-Rex actually looks like.

It is kinda dumb for the DM to restrict what you can polymorph into for reasons like that. Now if dinosaurs/giant apes/etc... just don't exist in the setting, it could be fine, but otherwise, just let people turn into what they want.

[Daishain]

You can justify anything in the DM's world. Bears and eagles don't have to exist either. Just because it is common in other worlds doesn't mean that it has to exist in the DM's world.Almost no matter the setting, there are going to be animals. Even if the bear and the eagle specifically don't exist, the default expectation is that something similar will occupy their niche. If there's a good reason for them to not be around in any form, that's fine. If not, well, that just looks like a case of the DM deliberately screwing with his players, which doesn't tend to go over well.


I don't believe in this. You can be native to said exotic location, there is nothing that says that only high level characters can go to exotic locations. Also conversely that high level characters can move between planes is something guaranteed (Moving is 100% DM dependant, you need an expensive magic component that needs to be attuned to a specific plane to be able to planeshift). Maybe in your games and in certain established settings that is the pattern but it isn't an universal truth.
Generally speaking, when speaking of highly exotic planes, they tend to be inherently hostile to life designed for a terran environment. Aside from obvious threats like a plane where the air is filled with toxins, some places can leach away identities or change your form or other such insidious nastiness. If the PCs are indeed native, there are two main possibilities. Either they're all of a definitely nonstandard race, or they grew up in a safe zone established by planewalkers. The former is possible, but a rather uncommon setup, the latter is liable to have a similar effect in terms of far reaching knowledge being available.

P.S. the plane shift spell is only one out of perhaps a dozen means of traveling the planes in D&D lore. Granted, none of them are easily accessible by your average peon. If you're interested in such things, I highly suggest looking up the Spelljammer as one of the more intriguing examples.


As I said before, you can justify if you've seen the creature but that doesn't mean that you can look into the MM and pick and choose. Even if the creature does exist the stats presented might not match the monster in question. The DM can freely modify any stats in the MM as he sees fit.

You can give your justification but the DM will have final say as to what is or isn't allowed in his world.Of course he can, but the players have final say on whether or not the DM has anyone to run a campaign for if he pushes too far. Take modifying stats for instance. Minor changes will not appreciably alter the power of the spell in question and should go unchallenged by the players. Major ones though... if told that the powerful creature the player anticipated becoming is suddenly about as strong as a hunting dog, they have a right to object.

[Shaofoo]

Almost no matter the setting, there are going to be animals. Even if the bear and the eagle specifically don't exist, the default expectation is that something similar will occupy their niche. If there's a good reason for them to not be around in any form, that's fine. If not, well, that just looks like a case of the DM deliberately screwing with his players, which doesn't tend to go over well.

If you've been exploring you should already have a mental list of the animal that exists in the world, either in person or from extensive study.

If the DM doesn't allow you a form that you saw and you believe that you can transform then there is a problem but if you never seen it then you can't say the DM is screwing with the players.


Generally speaking, when speaking of highly exotic planes, they tend to be inherently hostile to life designed for a terran environment. Aside from obvious threats like a plane where the air is filled with toxins, some places can leach away identities or change your form or other such insidious nastiness. If the PCs are indeed native, there are two main possibilities. Either they're all of a definitely nonstandard race, or they grew up in a safe zone established by planewalkers. The former is possible, but a rather uncommon setup, the latter is liable to have a similar effect in terms of far reaching knowledge being available.

P.S. the plane shift spell is only one out of perhaps a dozen means of traveling the planes in D&D lore. Granted, none of them are easily accessible by your average peon. If you're interested in such things, I highly suggest looking up the Spelljammer as one of the more intriguing examples.

Planes are not relevant to the discussion at hand. I was always talking about the DM's world not established continuity. The DM can choose to allow plane travel or not. Plane Shift might not be the only thing that can travel but it is the only thing that is offered to the players by the game, all other forms of plane traveling are all dependent on the DM, Spelljammer existing does not guarantee other means pf plane travel in the DM's world.


Of course he can, but the players have final say on whether or not the DM has anyone to run a campaign for if he pushes too far. Take modifying stats for instance. Minor changes will not appreciably alter the power of the spell in question and should go unchallenged by the players. Major ones though... if told that the powerful creature the player anticipated becoming is suddenly about as strong as a hunting dog, they have a right to object.

The players might have final say if they want to stay or leave the campaign but the DM's world will always exist regardless of players. I do not subscribe to your ultimatum at all.

What is minor and major? Who told the player about the powerful creature? Who established the expectations? If you've seen the monster you'd have a recourse but if you just heard of it there is no guarantee. This is so vague that your ultimatum to walk out can't be addressed because of the vagueness.

If the DM would like to mess with you he would've done so before you got Polymorph if you did have the progression from level 1.

[Daishain]

snip
Are you deliberately misinterpreting my statements at this point? Let me make one thing absolutely clear. I have been speaking of trends and default expectations, not absolute requirements.

Among those expectations is the one that there will exist a world with a semi realistic ecology(even if it is never actually seen in the campaign). Such would require an array of animals that fill a variety of ecological niches. Even if the specific creatures in the MM are not available, a realistic environment would require animals with comparable abilities. Exceptions can and will occur at the DM's discretion, that has never been in contention. My main point is that the further such exceptions are pushed, especially if the motive behind such is shutting down player options, the greater the issues that tend to arise. Not least because this is a game which requires some degree of suspension of disbelief.

P.S. in regards to the major and minor changes I mentioned before. That's a matter of game balance. The beasts in the MM are balanced at a particular CR. Various spells and class features are balanced with access to beasts of an appropriate CR range in mind. Taking an elephant (CR 4) and forcing it to travel 30 feet rather than 20 before its trampling charge can come into play is a minor change. Stripping its abilities down so that it is more comparable with the next MM entry (Elk, CR 1/4) would be a major change. Ok, so maybe your setting's elephants are CR 1/4 pygmy variants, that's fine, but what else is occupying the massive herbivore niche?

[KorvinStarmast]

- he knows you're his friend. He knew you were his friend before the transformation, he just has animal intelligence now - are you trying to say animals can't recognise or remember people? Yep, that's how I read it.


Is 140 HP really that big a deal at level 8 anyways? Going by average damage for CR 8 monsters, that wouldnt last more than an encounter or two.

It also uses your concentration slot, limits the abilities you can use in that form.

Flashy, but I wouldnt call it broken. I'll toss in the other F word: fun. :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

. Ok, so maybe your setting's elephants are CR 1/4 pygmy variants, that's fine, but what else is occupying the massive herbivore niche?
Giant Goats?
Buffalo on steroids?

[SharkForce]

minor correction: apart from 4e, spelljammers are no good for exploring the planes (and the 4e "spelljammer" should never have happened because if you're not going to convert the rest of the setting - and they pretty obviously weren't going to do that - then you may as well have just called it a flying ship or something similar).

[Segev]

Regarding "get the mental stats," I think it's best to interpret that not as "change to having the full-on mind of the beast," but rather that you simply play the character as himself...with rolls on the mental stats using the usually-lower values. The scouting spider who was your party arcane trickster isn't going to forget his mission, but his Investigation is going to be sloppy. He is not going to recall things from his study of Arcana nearly so well.

While you can attempt to RP the new stupidity, you're probably best off not over-thinking it; the stats have mechanical consequences. That is probably sufficient.

[Daishain]

minor correction: apart from 4e, spelljammers are no good for exploring the planes (and the 4e "spelljammer" should never have happened because if you're not going to convert the rest of the setting - and they pretty obviously weren't going to do that - then you may as well have just called it a flying ship or something similar).
I tend to lump other worlds in with other dimensions when speaking of such travel. Technically incorrect, but when going to heaven and back again is about as easy as going from Greyhawk to Eberron...

[JellyPooga]

On the subject of "mind of a beast";

I agree with the general point that you don't forget your personality and replace it anew; the rules state as much. But the spell makes you the thing that you've become in every aspect.

Turn a Raging Barbarian into a sheep and whilst he'll be a really angry sheep at first, if you distract him and offer it something mollifying (food, a mate, an open gate...seriously, sheep are dull), then he's not going to be able to resist calming down a bit and acting like...well, a sheep.

Now take the example of a Great White Shark. An alpha predator and lone hunter, he will recognise his companions as being friendlies at first, but after rampaging through his enemies, he's going to be in a blood frenzy. Once the fight is "over", it's quite likely that his limited intellect, clouded by his bloodlust and the confusion of the melee that just occurred, he will simply perceive his former companions as more food or, given that they're all still armed and in aggressive postures, a threat.

As Segev says, the stats will take care of a lot of things, but it's also important to actually roleplay those stats. Low Int means you are easily confused and battle is a confusing thing. If you have the mind and body of an aggressive and powerful creature, that confusion will easily translate into violence. Just as in a meek and cowardly creature, that same confusion will cause you to flee.

[Lines]

Yep, that's how I read it.

I'll toss in the other F word: fun. :smallbiggrin:

I don't understand - on what do you possibly base that? The spell mentions nothing about the polymorphed individual either not being able to control their character or being unable to recognise their friends, and you'd think that would be a pretty damn important thing to mention.

Regarding you reading it as animals being unable to remember people or tell them apart - you do know that's completely and utterly false in objectively provable ways, right? This doesn't even need much citing, just visit your local dog with treats a few times and see if it remembers you.

[Rhaegar]

With so few options for turning into, I would presume that any decent Wizard school would have a half-hour lecture on the best Polymorph options. They could even cast it for demonstration, so you can see what a T-Rex actually looks like.

It is kinda dumb for the DM to restrict what you can polymorph into for reasons like that. Now if dinosaurs/giant apes/etc... just don't exist in the setting, it could be fine, but otherwise, just let people turn into what they want.

This assumes that a wizard school actually exists. It is my understanding that in most words wizards are somewhat rare, and that a polymorph expert teaching a class would not be typical. If your campaign starts at level one, I wouldn't think that a sub lv1 wizard apprentice would be attending lectures on spells well over his capabilities.

For me if a player used polymorph it would come down to what would be reasonable for the character to know of in the world. I would be much less likely to allow a T-Rex if they'd been extinct for a million years vs them still roaming parts of the world. Just because something exists in the monster manual doesn't mean it exists in a given adventuring world.

[JellyPooga]

just visit your local dog with treats a few times and see if it remembers you.

Then rile that dog up something rotten, by having someone else bait it and immediately try and offer it a treat. Good luck with the surgery on your hand.

That's with an animal known, no bred for loyalty. It might remember you after the fact, but animal intellect is an instinctive thing.

[Segev]

You can admonish players to "roleplay their stats" all you like, but all that's doing is injecting a nerf that only punishes people who are playing in the manner you think is "right." Or, as an alterantive way to look at it, you're telling others how to play their characters when the rules don't back you up.

If you explicitly retain your personality, you do not have the personality of a beast who does not recognize its friends. Not unless you are like that normally, anyway. That great white shark that your barbarian just got polymorphed into may well be in a blood frenzy...but unless the rules for "blood frenzy" (surely an ability the animal has?) state that it will attack friends, or the barbarian's rules say that he will, that is a shark with a remarkably un-shark-like, very (demi)human(oid) personality that recognizes its allies and doesn't attack them just because it's out of enemies. (Unless, again, the rules say otherwise or that's how the barbarian acts NORMALLY when not polymorphed.)

[MaxWilson]

Then rile that dog up something rotten, by having someone else bait it and immediately try and offer it a treat. Good luck with the surgery on your hand.

That's with an animal known, no bred for loyalty. It might remember you after the fact, but animal intellect is an instinctive thing.

Works on Spiderman too. Rile him up enough in a bar fight and he'll punch Mary Jane in the face. I think the spider DNA must have lowered his Int a bit.

[Segev]

Works on Spiderman too. Rile him up enough in a bar fight and he'll punch Mary Jane in the face. I think the spider DNA must have lowered his Int a bit.

Nah, that's a curse. The Green Goblin managed to bestow curse: bad writer on him, which resulted in a lower Int and Cha.

[Lines]

Then rile that dog up something rotten, by having someone else bait it and immediately try and offer it a treat. Good luck with the surgery on your hand.

That's with an animal known, no bred for loyalty. It might remember you after the fact, but animal intellect is an instinctive thing.

Wouldn't work on a very well trained dog, and has no chance of working on a human turned into a dog who has his human knowledge and personality.

[JellyPooga]

You can admonish players to "roleplay their stats" all you like,

You're absolutely right that there's no ruling that says a polymorphed player character has to attack his friends. The spell explicitly tells us that he retains his personality.

There's also no rule that tells us that characters with low Int have to act in any certain way. I can play an Int 3 character who is literate, multilingual, polite and civil. I can even make him quite cunning; coming up with devious plans that the other characters follow to great effect.

Am I within my rights to play this low Int character that way? Sure. The stats only provide for mechanical modifiers at the end of the day. How I play a character is up to me. Should I play a character that way? That's again up to me as a player. If I judge that it's appropriate that I play my Int 3 character in a certain way, no rule can or will tell me I'm wrong.

Polymorph? Yeah, if you want to ignore the consequences of having literal animal intellect and instincts and play it as if you're an intelligent human mind guiding an animal body, great. The rules support you. They support you playing a non-polymorphed animal that way too.

[Segev]

Indeed. An int 3 character is by default literate, per the rules. Civility is not related to intelligence (but is to charisma, insofar as how well you manage to pull it off can be represented in your various charisma-related skill checks). If you play an int 3 member of any race that by default has more than one language, you automatically are multi-lingual, too.

You absolutely can play a character with a low int as a drooling moron. You don't have to; he can merely be extremely simple-minded when it comes to how well he puts things together, retains and recalls facts, and studies details.

I know, however, that under spells such as speak with animals, it is noted that there is a distinct difference between the mind of a beast and that of most PCable races, insofar as they are going to have different foci and conversational interests. I don't know if that's something later referenced in the MM under their various entries, or not. But it does indicate that there is a distinct difference in personality between people and beasts; this difference is explicitly overridden by the fact that a polymorphed individual retains his personality.

[pwykersotz]

Indeed. An int 3 character is by default literate, per the rules. Civility is not related to intelligence (but is to charisma, insofar as how well you manage to pull it off can be represented in your various charisma-related skill checks). If you play an int 3 member of any race that by default has more than one language, you automatically are multi-lingual, too.

You absolutely can play a character with a low int as a drooling moron. You don't have to; he can merely be extremely simple-minded when it comes to how well he puts things together, retains and recalls facts, and studies details.

I know, however, that under spells such as speak with animals, it is noted that there is a distinct difference between the mind of a beast and that of most PCable races, insofar as they are going to have different foci and conversational interests. I don't know if that's something later referenced in the MM under their various entries, or not. But it does indicate that there is a distinct difference in personality between people and beasts; this difference is explicitly overridden by the fact that a polymorphed individual retains his personality.

This is how I run it. An animal with an intelligence of 8 is different from a human with an intelligence of 8. Trying to force consistency based on stats exclusive to the rest of the creature's identity didn't work for me in 3.5, and it hasn't worked in 5e.

[Shaofoo]

Are you deliberately misinterpreting my statements at this point? Let me make one thing absolutely clear. I have been speaking of trends and default expectations, not absolute requirements.

And I've been speaking of absolute requirements because in the DM's world that is the only thing that matters on a game by game basis. The only expectations that a player should have when they come to a table are whatever the PHB has. You wish to make a study as to what appears when over a population of games be my guest but you can't use the averages as an argument when I can make a game that goes counter to said averages.


Among those expectations is the one that there will exist a world with a semi realistic ecology(even if it is never actually seen in the campaign). Such would require an array of animals that fill a variety of ecological niches. Even if the specific creatures in the MM are not available, a realistic environment would require animals with comparable abilities. Exceptions can and will occur at the DM's discretion, that has never been in contention. My main point is that the further such exceptions are pushed, especially if the motive behind such is shutting down player options, the greater the issues that tend to arise. Not least because this is a game which requires some degree of suspension of disbelief.

And now I must question you if you are deliberately misinterpreting me.

I never said that the DM has hard and fast codification as to what you can polymorph into. If you have seen a bear and a giant eagle in the game then you can most likely transform into them. What my main point is saying that you can't crack open the MM and be able to point to a creature and polymorph exactly into that creature because either the creature does not exist or the creature is modified, both which are within the DM's power to do and without giving the players warning. Of course feel free to make a list of the creatures that you've encountered.

Personally I would probably only make the players be able to polymorph into monsters they have personally seen, if my game was taking in today's world they wouldn't be able to polymorph into a T Rex even if they said that they saw Jurassic Park. But that is my rule and you can feel free to have them polymorph into a dinosaur where they are extinct or even have dinosaurs so they can polymorph into them. You can even disregard me and let the players crack open the MM to pick and choose the monsters of their choice. That is the beauty of being a DM.


P.S. in regards to the major and minor changes I mentioned before. That's a matter of game balance. The beasts in the MM are balanced at a particular CR. Various spells and class features are balanced with access to beasts of an appropriate CR range in mind. Taking an elephant (CR 4) and forcing it to travel 30 feet rather than 20 before its trampling charge can come into play is a minor change. Stripping its abilities down so that it is more comparable with the next MM entry (Elk, CR 1/4) would be a major change. Ok, so maybe your setting's elephants are CR 1/4 pygmy variants, that's fine, but what else is occupying the massive herbivore niche?

Why do huge herbivores have to exist? Why should there have to be specific niches to fill in the world? It is fantasy, why should the ecology try to approximate real life? If you want to be mindful of the ecology in your games then go for it but it seems a bit short sighted that somehow all games has to obey some sort of unseen rule about a self sustaining ecology.

[Lines]

This is how I run it. An animal with an intelligence of 8 is different from a human with an intelligence of 8. Trying to force consistency based on stats exclusive to the rest of the creature's identity didn't work for me in 3.5, and it hasn't worked in 5e.

What was wrong in 3.5? Int 0 meant it had no ability to learn and just went off instincts and/or programming, beasts could be int 1-2 and stopped being beasts if they reached 3. Seems a pretty logical system to me.

[Mellack]

What was wrong in 3.5? Int 0 meant it had no ability to learn and just went off instincts and/or programming, beasts could be int 1-2 and stopped being beasts if they reached 3. Seems a pretty logical system to me.

Because this is 5e, not 3.5. Animals in this edition have INT stats that are as high as a PC dump stat. The old rules don't apply.

[Lines]

Because this is 5e, not 3.5. Animals in this edition have INT stats that are as high as a PC dump stat. The old rules don't apply.

That answer had nothing to do with the question I asked.

[eastmabl]

That answer had nothing to do with the question I asked.

The answer is that you're trying to compare apples and oranges. It's a completely different system, and there is much greater variance in the intelligence scores of beasts.

More on topic, Intelligence works differently in 5e than it does in 3.x. A lot of illusion magic doesn't operate off a Wisdom saving throw - many times, you're using an intelligence saving throw or skill check. If you limit beasts (your former animals) to intelligence of 2, Illusion can become a win button.

***

Also, it should be noted that in 3.5, a 0 intelligence creature "[could] not think and [was] unconscious in a coma-like stupor." Characters with Intelligence 1-2 operated off of instincts and programming... kind of like an animal.

[Vogonjeltz]

Whether or not the caster is aware of CR, in order for the spell to be useful, he must be aware of what creatures he can choose from at some level.

I'd think there would be a multi-stage interaction in play. First the caster would need to be aware of the existence of whatever it is they are trying to transform the subject into. i.e. The character (not the player) knows that T-rexes are a thing. If the character doesn't know, it wouldn't be possible on those grounds.

Then the caster tries to transform a specific person into said thing and sees if it works. Since the caster has no plausible means of knowing how powerful the subject is (to see if they qualify for turning into a particular kind of creature), then presumably it would all be trial and error.


I don't understand - on what do you possibly base that? The spell mentions nothing about the polymorphed individual either not being able to control their character or being unable to recognise their friends, and you'd think that would be a pretty damn important thing to mention.

Regarding you reading it as animals being unable to remember people or tell them apart - you do know that's completely and utterly false in objectively provable ways, right? This doesn't even need much citing, just visit your local dog with treats a few times and see if it remembers you.

Mental stat replacement covers:

Mental acuity, accuracy of recall, ability to reason, logic, memory, deductive reasoning, perception, intuition, confidence, eloquence, charm, and command presence.

Although they might still be a Lawful Good character with the personality derived from their background (yes, personality is a background trait, check PHB 123), they aren't necessarily all there anymore, depending on how their mind has been warped. A Falcon, for example, would be functionally an idiot (as are most other animals) incapable of accessing most of their knowledge thanks to their new negative ability scores and loss of proficiency.

I don't think that would change if they like/dislike you necessarily, but it would certainly impact their ability to reason or comprehend their environment.

[Lines]

The answer is that you're trying to compare apples and oranges. It's a completely different system, and there is much greater variance in the intelligence scores of beasts.
No, I'm not. I may have compared them at other points, but certainly not in this thread. What gave you the impression that I was?


More on topic, Intelligence works differently in 5e than it does in 3.x. A lot of illusion magic doesn't operate off a Wisdom saving throw - many times, you're using an intelligence saving throw or skill check. If you limit beasts (your former animals) to intelligence of 2, Illusion can become a win button.
Already is, they have bad saves against it and don't have the mental faculties to wonder if it's real in the first place.


Also, it should be noted that in 3.5, a 0 intelligence creature "[could] not think and [was] unconscious in a coma-like stupor." Characters with Intelligence 1-2 operated off of instincts and programming... kind of like an animal.
Apologies, I had intended to write Ø but it came out as a regular 0. I should have just written --. And no, creatures of 1-2 do not run off programming - however limited it is compared to humans, having an animal intelligence means the ability to reason or learn. Obviously a bunch of instinct is going to be involved, but it is only creatures of intelligence Ø like a giant wasp or flesh golem that cannot learn.


Mental stat replacement covers:

Mental acuity, accuracy of recall, ability to reason, logic, memory, deductive reasoning, perception, intuition, confidence, eloquence, charm, and command presence.

Although they might still be a Lawful Good character with the personality derived from their background (yes, personality is a background trait, check PHB 123), they aren't necessarily all there anymore, depending on how their mind has been warped. A Falcon, for example, would be functionally an idiot (as are most other animals) incapable of accessing most of their knowledge thanks to their new negative ability scores and loss of proficiency.

I don't think that would change if they like/dislike you necessarily, but it would certainly impact their ability to reason or comprehend their environment.
Yes, of course it would. They would not have nearly as much ability to process information as they did and would find factors they formerly would not have been bothered by confusing and incomprehensible. I was objecting to KorvinStarmast's claim that animals can neither recognise nor remember people, which is patently untrue.

[Sigreid]

Polymorph? Yeah, if you want to ignore the consequences of having literal animal intellect and instincts and play it as if you're an intelligent human mind guiding an animal body, great. The rules support you. They support you playing a non-polymorphed animal that way too.

See, the issue I have with your perspective shows up in the transmuter benefit of casting polymorph on themselves once per day for free. By your reasoning, it would not only be useless but it would immediately fail as the animal you turned into can't maintain a spell.

[JellyPooga]

I know, however, that under spells such as speak with animals, it is noted that there is a distinct difference between the mind of a beast and that of most PCable races

The knowledge and awareness of animals is limited by their intelligence

That's all Speak with Animals has to say on the subject. The Monster Manual entry for the Beast type says nothing about personality and I've yet to find any entry in any official source material that any Ability Scores are judged differently for any creature type, mental or physical.

If you have Str 19, you're as strong as a Brown Bear. If you have Int 1, Wis 10 and Cha 4, you have the same mental acuity as a Reef Shark. If you're under the effects of a spell that turns you into an animal and tells you that you have the same mental stats as an animal, then I expect you to act at least somewhat like that animal.

Yes, you retain your personality. You know who your friends and enemies are, you know what your life goals are and your moral compass doesn't change. You still have the same sense of humour. You do, however, lose your factual knowledge, your ability to reason and recall. Your intellect is that of the animal you've become. You also change your Charisma; your sense of social mores, your "ability to interact effectively with others" (to quote the PHB). That, too, becomes that of the animal you've become. What "ability to interact effectively with others" does a shark or a snake or whatever animal you've become have? That's what you now have too. Other animals (including your friends) start looking like food if you're a predator, or a threat if you're a prey animal. Yes, you recognise them as friendly at first, but a melee is confusing and once adrenaline starts pumping and instincts run hotter than reason, even finely honed intellects "lose their heads"...how much harder for an animal intellect to keep theirs?

I said it before; I'm not telling anyone how they must play. Only to give a consideration to the consequences of having the mind of an animal, because that's what polymorph does; it gives you an animals mind.

Animal Shapes, by comparison, allows you to retain your mental abilities; you're (demi)human(oid) mind. Fully intact. Unchanged. Any comments on this difference would be welcome. For myself, I infer that Polymorph should have a different effect that Animal Shapes on the mental faculties of the subject. Otherwise why would one specify that your abilities change and the other not?


By your reasoning, it would not only be useless but it would immediately fail as the animal you turned into can't maintain a spell.

Show me the rule that says animals can't concentrate on spells and I'll concede my argument.

[MadBear]

And I've been speaking of absolute requirements because in the DM's world that is the only thing that matters on a game by game basis. The only expectations that a player should have when they come to a table are whatever the PHB has. You wish to make a study as to what appears when over a population of games be my guest but you can't use the averages as an argument when I can make a game that goes counter to said averages.



And now I must question you if you are deliberately misinterpreting me.

I never said that the DM has hard and fast codification as to what you can polymorph into. If you have seen a bear and a giant eagle in the game then you can most likely transform into them. What my main point is saying that you can't crack open the MM and be able to point to a creature and polymorph exactly into that creature because either the creature does not exist or the creature is modified, both which are within the DM's power to do and without giving the players warning. Of course feel free to make a list of the creatures that you've encountered.

Personally I would probably only make the players be able to polymorph into monsters they have personally seen, if my game was taking in today's world they wouldn't be able to polymorph into a T Rex even if they said that they saw Jurassic Park. But that is my rule and you can feel free to have them polymorph into a dinosaur where they are extinct or even have dinosaurs so they can polymorph into them. You can even disregard me and let the players crack open the MM to pick and choose the monsters of their choice. That is the beauty of being a DM.



Why do huge herbivores have to exist? Why should there have to be specific niches to fill in the world? It is fantasy, why should the ecology try to approximate real life? If you want to be mindful of the ecology in your games then go for it but it seems a bit short sighted that somehow all games has to obey some sort of unseen rule about a self sustaining ecology.

The only issue I see with the way you rule polymorph is that the number of beasts is rather limited in the MM. When you get the spell at level 7, there is only a single CR7 creature that you could turn into (the Great Ape), and then at level 8 the only CR 8 animal you could turn into would be the T-Rex. Outside of those 2 creatures, you are using a 4th level spell at a deficit, because you'd only be getting a CR6 creature or weaker.

Now if you compensated in your world and there were other CR7-8 beasts that the PC could reasonably have seen, with different stats/abilities/whatever, I'd say your method might even be superior.

It's just unfortunate at this point that the lack of beasts make polymorph as it currently is weaker when you deny access to 1-2 of the only high CR creature out there.

[Sigreid]

Show me the rule that says animals can't concentrate on spells and I'll concede my argument.

I don't think it's written so I'll concede that even though an animal wouldn't know what a spell is so I don't see how they can concentrate on it. Still hard for me to see a reason you would polymorph yourself if you are immediately going to revert to animal instinct. Whatever you had in mind is out the window.

[JellyPooga]

Still hard for me to see a reason you would polymorph yourself if you are immediately going to revert to animal instinct. Whatever you had in mind is out the window.

I'm not saying that you revert immediately to a purely animal instinct with no conception of being humanoid or your former self; you still, after all, have the personality of a high level Transmuter (in this example). You're still the same being.

As a T-Rex, you can go fight your enemies and once their dead, revert back to your humanoid form. Great. That's the plan. It's just that distinguishing between friend and foe might pose a challenge after a few rounds of combat as the "animal instincts" start overriding your original intentions.

As someone else pointed out earlier, you could change into a spider to go scouting. So off you go, wall-crawling along and "Hey look, a tasty bug!" Nom Nom Nom...What were you doing again? Oh yeah, scouting. So off you go again...you get to the end of the corridor and look one way, see some ground crawlers, you're not sure what they are, but why would you pay much attention to ground crawlers? Still you're up here for a reason. What was it? Oh yeah, scouting. Ground crawlers. Green ones. Better get back; don't want the ground crawlers seeing you and your buddies are waiting. So you get back to the party, change back and report that there's a group of groun-...uh, enemies around the corner and they're green. Quite small too, come to think of it. Probably Goblins. Oh and you can't get rid of the taste of Fly in your mouth.

You can interpret what you've seen whichever way you like once you're back in humanoid form; you've got your smarts back. Whilst you're an animal though, you just can't join the dots. As a Transmuter, you know that you're supposed to concentrate on that flow of power (or whatever concentrating on a spell feels like), you probably aren't too sure why, but you figure it's important. Otherwise, indeed, why would you use that ability if it removed all faculty and practical use?

[oxybe]

I wouldn't say you forget stuff when you turn into an animal. you just have a hard time remembering stuff.

Think of it this way: On your normal computer you can play Medal of Battlefield: Warguy 12 at max settings, have a bunch of tabs open in firefox and stream video without a hiccup on netflix.

but suddenly you swap out the video card, ram, monitor and internet speed for slower or weaker ones.

You're still running the same content (your knowledge/personality), you just have a harder time accessing it or getting the whole thing in correct order... it can be a bit janky.

the wizard still has his arcana training and knowledge, he's just trying to parse it with that tiny t-rex brain. the bard still has his knowledge in social manners, but trying to get those body language and vocal cues through a t-rex's bulk and vocal chords is hard.

You're still you... you're just you with different faculties.

[Tvtyrant]

There is very little justification there to be needed. Would the character in question know what a T Rex is? Did he ever see, look or even heard what is a T Rex? Would even hearing what is a T Rex be enough?

The player will have to be the one to justify why would he say that he wishes to turn into a T Rex in a world where dinosaurs do not exist or ever existed. The DM doesn't have to talk fast to justify what the players know, the players will have to talk fast to justify why would he know such a thing. A player can easily not into contact with the other planes (Plane shifting is 100% handled by the DM regardless if you use a spell or not).

The spell is powerful but it does not give you the right to flip through the MM and cherry pick monsters of your choice.

Also since you retain alignment and personality a lawful good person that respects life will probably still respect life even if he was turned into a T Rex, of course the Chaotic Stup... I mean neutral person turned into a T Rex will use the chance to go in a rampage.

This is pretty silly IMO. Wizards go around collecting books of spells, swap knowledge about spells, and write copious volumes about spells for a reason. Any wizard likely has or can get access to the life work of "Thombulious the Lizard Obsessed's Big Book of Lizards" which describes every reptile he could find and how to transform into them.

Look the the depths people on the Internet go to for games, contrast that with how much minutiae academics go into, then tell me that a world where magic is real people would not have charted every inch of it in the last 10,000 years.

A particularly enterprising wizard might even sell the secret to transforming into different animals as scrolls, but only in randomized pacts with the most effective forms being the rarest.

[Sigreid]

I'm not saying that you revert immediately to a purely animal instinct with no conception of being humanoid or your former self; you still, after all, have the personality of a high level Transmuter (in this example). You're still the same being.

As a T-Rex, you can go fight your enemies and once their dead, revert back to your humanoid form. Great. That's the plan. It's just that distinguishing between friend and foe might pose a challenge after a few rounds of combat as the "animal instincts" start overriding your original intentions.

As someone else pointed out earlier, you could change into a spider to go scouting. So off you go, wall-crawling along and "Hey look, a tasty bug!" Nom Nom Nom...What were you doing again? Oh yeah, scouting. So off you go again...you get to the end of the corridor and look one way, see some ground crawlers, you're not sure what they are, but why would you pay much attention to ground crawlers? Still you're up here for a reason. What was it? Oh yeah, scouting. Ground crawlers. Green ones. Better get back; don't want the ground crawlers seeing you and your buddies are waiting. So you get back to the party, change back and report that there's a group of groun-...uh, enemies around the corner and they're green. Quite small too, come to think of it. Probably Goblins. Oh and you can't get rid of the taste of Fly in your mouth.

You can interpret what you've seen whichever way you like once you're back in humanoid form; you've got your smarts back. Whilst you're an animal though, you just can't join the dots. As a Transmuter, you know that you're supposed to concentrate on that flow of power (or whatever concentrating on a spell feels like), you probably aren't too sure why, but you figure it's important. Otherwise, indeed, why would you use that ability if it removed all faculty and practical use?

Well then, perhaps I'm just not understanding where you draw the line. If it works for your group though, more power to you.

[JellyPooga]

Well then, perhaps I'm just not understanding where you draw the line. If it works for your group though, more power to you.

I suppose the only way I can explain it is by saying that there isn't a "line" to be drawn. Mental stats and roleplaying them are a tricksy thing at the best of times, let alone when you introduce things like Polymorph. I think it's the important distinction that there are effects in the game that do allow you to retain your mental faculties while in an alternative "form" to your own (Wild Shape and the Animal Shapes spell) and that Polymorph specifically does not.

As I've said, it's not about enforcing a rule, per se, it's about playing the character and in this case, it's a character who's having to cope with suddenly being jammed into a body and (very limited) mindset that it's not familiar with. Play with the stats for what they're worth, don't try to work around them; trust me, it's a lot of fun! It works both ways, too; cast Polymorph on an opponent and he should be struggling just as much to cope with the change.

[bardo]

The mind of a polymorphed character is a paradox. It simultaneously holds an alignment and an INT score that's too low to support the alignment. No player can portray it "correctly" because such a mind can not exist. When faced with any sort of moral dilemma the polymorphed character must either "break" the INT score or "break" the alignment, there is no other way out.

I value alignment/personality more than mental stats for role playing purposes. So for me it's expected and accepted that a polymorphed character with an INT 1 will be making decisions and taking actions that are impossible for an INT 1 creature. The mental stats will affect checks and saves, and nothing else.

If the player wants to play it like a bad Tim Allen movie, go ahead and spend your combat action on sniffing another T-Rex's butt, might even get inspiration for it. But that's the player's choice. The DM should not expect players to act the beast's mental stats and the character's alignment/personality concurrently, I know it says so in the rules, but it's impossible.

Bardo.

[Shaofoo]

The only issue I see with the way you rule polymorph is that the number of beasts is rather limited in the MM. When you get the spell at level 7, there is only a single CR7 creature that you could turn into (the Great Ape), and then at level 8 the only CR 8 animal you could turn into would be the T-Rex. Outside of those 2 creatures, you are using a 4th level spell at a deficit, because you'd only be getting a CR6 creature or weaker.

Now if you compensated in your world and there were other CR7-8 beasts that the PC could reasonably have seen, with different stats/abilities/whatever, I'd say your method might even be superior.

It's just unfortunate at this point that the lack of beasts make polymorph as it currently is weaker when you deny access to 1-2 of the only high CR creature out there.

My rule is 100% DM dependant. That the MM is lacking is not a factor when the DM can fill in the blanks if he wants to. The MM is not a rule book to follow, it is a book filled with suggestions how to make monster and enemies in your game that you are free to take wholesale and put in your games.


This is pretty silly IMO. Wizards go around collecting books of spells, swap knowledge about spells, and write copious volumes about spells for a reason. Any wizard likely has or can get access to the life work of "Thombulious the Lizard Obsessed's Big Book of Lizards" which describes every reptile he could find and how to transform into them.

Look the the depths people on the Internet go to for games, contrast that with how much minutiae academics go into, then tell me that a world where magic is real people would not have charted every inch of it in the last 10,000 years.

A particularly enterprising wizard might even sell the secret to transforming into different animals as scrolls, but only in randomized pacts with the most effective forms being the rarest.

You are making a huge assumption that T Rexes even exist in the world of the DM. My point is that just because it is in the MM doesn't mean that it is legal in the world. Sure if the monster exists and there is knowledge then that part isn't in question but I do question cracking open the MM and pointing to a monster. If the player can justify it then go ahead and turn into it.

Like I said before if it was in real life you couldn't polymorph into a T Rex because they haven't existed for several million years and nearly all data that we have is theory based on fossils but that is my rule and if seeing Jurassic Park is enough to turn into a T Rex in your games then go for it.

Transforming into animals isn't the problem, the availability of the animal is the thing in question.

[PoeticDwarf]

Polymorph has always been a powerful spell, and this edition is no different. Its also powerful offensively, and provides a convenient means of capturing dangerous enemies.

Bear in mind, the subject assumes all of the chosen creatures attributes, including mental scores. That half orc you buffed? Can probably now much more easily be turned against you via enchantment.

True, and concentration can be broken pretty easily. Well, some bards/wizards/sorcerers/more bards/bards are smart enough to just take resillent (sorcerers don't need it but still). On the other side, when con saves become better, polymorph becomes worse. The spell is too strong but not OP I think.

[MadBear]

My rule is 100% DM dependant. That the MM is lacking is not a factor when the DM can fill in the blanks if he wants to. The MM is not a rule book to follow, it is a book filled with suggestions how to make monster and enemies in your game that you are free to take wholesale and put in your games.

That sounds great then. If the DM and player are working together and the DM has high level CR beasts that are possible for the player to turn into in his world, then going through a MM isn't necessary at all. In fact it's probably more fun as the druid/wizard/whoever can make it part of their story hook to look for the worlds scariest/toughest/meanest beasts around the world. In that world, why would anyone care about turning specifically into a T-Rex if there are other more interesting beasts to turn in to.

The only time it's a problem (and the reason I suspect many players do just skim through the MM) is if the DM only uses the MM for monsters, and enforces your rule. In that scenario, the spells usage drops considerably. (at least for using it to get a combat form).

[Tanarii]

If you explicitly retain your personality, Personality in 5e has a very specific meaning. It's your Personality, Ideal, Bond and Flaw descriptions.

[Vogonjeltz]

Yes, of course it would. They would not have nearly as much ability to process information as they did and would find factors they formerly would not have been bothered by confusing and incomprehensible. I was objecting to KorvinStarmast's claim that animals can neither recognise nor remember people, which is patently untrue.

Well see, that's just it. The animal version might not remember someone, even someone they knew well as a human. I've seen many a dog not recognize someone they've met several times before, as an example. Per polymorph, the only things that the character retains are alignment and personality, and those really only dictate how one acts/responds, not what one knows/recalls.

So, if your character was basically some kind of murderous villain in heroes clothing, you're going to end up with an animal that kills indiscriminately.

[Rhaegar]

Well see, that's just it. The animal version might not remember someone, even someone they knew well as a human. I've seen many a dog not recognize someone they've met several times before, as an example. Per polymorph, the only things that the character retains are alignment and personality, and those really only dictate how one acts/responds, not what one knows/recalls.

So, if your character was basically some kind of murderous villain in heroes clothing, you're going to end up with an animal that kills indiscriminately.

While some dogs may not remember someone they've only met a dozen times, on occasional visits, I've never met a dog who wasn't able to remember someone they lived with on a daily basis. And absolutely I've never seen any animal forget someone that left the room for 5 seconds and came right back. A person polymorphed into an animal was with/around their party members seconds before the polymorph, it's not like they're trying to remember someone from months earlier as an animal. Yes they might not remember someone they met a couple weeks ago and haven't seen since, but that's not what this conversation is about, we're talking about adventurers who are together nearly 24 hours a day.

Granted if you had a hostile rivalry with a party member, that you barely restrained yourself due to your humanity, and common interests. Perhaps you might turn on that individual, but not on people that you were relatively friendly with. Just because you're evil doesn't mean you don't have any friends.

[Segev]

Personality in 5e has a very specific meaning. It's your Personality, Ideal, Bond and Flaw descriptions.

That's an interesting perspective. Do the rules specifically spell out that these, and only these, correspond to all uses of the word "personality" in rules text?

[Tanarii]

No. But they're the focus of an entire chapter called "Personality and Background" devoted to personality, which incidentally includes the other thing retained by a polymorphed character: alignment. They give you an idea of what the hell it means to retain a character's personality, and what isn't a part of it.

What the PHB says about personal characteristics (ie personality) is:
"Fleshing out your character’s personality—the array of traits, mannerisms, habits, beliefs, and flaws that give a person a unique identity—will help you bring him or her to life as you play the game. Four categories of characteristics are presented here: personality traits, ideals, bonds, and flaws. Beyond those categories, think about your character’s favorite words or phrases, tics and habitual gestures, vices and pet peeves, and whatever else you can imagine."

So your personality is your personality traits and other little quirks he has. What's relevant to this discussion is many personality traits directly reflect upon how you interact with your adventuring companions and others in the world. Others don't. But they are spelled out just as alignment is, so you and the DM both know exactly what hasn't changed. Unless you ignored the personality part of your character per the PHB, which sadly many people seem to do.

If an adventurers alignment personality doesn't change, those traits don't change. What changes is they now have animal intelligence, wisdom and charisma. That means you know exactly what hasn't changed, what has changed, and what isn't defined.

Things like "recognize my friend" or "cooperate with my allies" are undefined. They aren't necessarily part of personality (edit: unless of course they were specifically included as part of a given trait), but generally speaking no sane DM will require an Int check from a player to do it, so why would they for a polymorphed creature? OTOH I've seen DMs declare polymorphed PCs are NPCs under their control, because they are animal intelligence. And IMO that's fine too.

[Shaofoo]

Why don't we use Feeblemind as the baseline for the lowest Intelligence possible?

You can't cast spells, activate magic languages, understand languages or communicate in an intelligible way but you still identify your friends and can follow and even protect them.

The way I see it, if the wizard turns his best bud fighter into a T Rex the best bud T Rex will do everything in his power to protect his wizard friend because he would do so as a fighter.

If you have no reasons to turn on your group when you're normal you also wouldn't do so when you have an animal mind. Someone who is disgruntled will probably turn on his group but he probably would've done so anyway.

Polymorph will not turn allies into enemies unless said allies weren't really allies and they were just biding their time to break it off, turning into a T Rex just expedited the decision.