Help Fleshing Out an Evil Character

[GnomishPride]

Greetings to the Playground!
I'm building a LE Dread Necromancer (specifically, a Minionmancer), but I need help giving him some character. He's not very fleshed out yet, pun very much intended. I have his build basically done, but he lacks anything that gives him depth. I do have a couple ideas however, to help you help me.
1) Fear/Dislike of Blood. I thought it'd be cool to play a character who has a neat phobia, and since he really loses nothing from fear of blood mechanically, it doesn't hurt. I'm not sure how or why it would come to be.
2) Extreme Depravity. Basically, he's willing to do anything, no matter the cost to his morality. It's not that he lacks morals (i.e. doesn't know evil from good), but he instead revels in evil and debauchery. The deepest end of the alignment pool as it were. I get the feeling that might be too broad or cliche.
Mostly, I need help determining personality traits, goals/motivation, and how everything would tie together. Ideas on how to show how depraved and evil he is would be nice too.
Thanks in advance!
Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel

[EyethatBinds]

There's a lot to cover regarding this villain, I would suggest against someone being purely evil for the sake of it, as this tends to be a less nuanced character that the players will put to the sword as soon as they can.

But you need to focus on the W's and H of his background. Where is this man from? Why is he afraid of blood? Perhaps he was nearly drowned in the stuff as part of a dark ritual that didn't go so well. Who raised him? Who taught him necromancy and why? What are his long term goals?

Most villains do not generally see themselves or their actions as evil (until possibly from hindsight). The best villains will have motives that the players can understand or might even strangely agree with.

[GnomishPride]

Oh sorry, I forgot to specify, I'm playing this here villain.
You do make good points. Asking questions (to myself) about his backstory seems very helpful.

[EyethatBinds]

Just keep in mind that hate and fear can often justify cruel and sadistic acts. Learning why he fears what he does will often lend towards his more despicable actions.

The master necromancer who trained him might have tried to turn him into some sort of undead for failing him, but was interrupted by a group of rowdy teens who slayed his master and burned his library. Revenge for the lost knowledge would be complicated since they basically saved the character's life but they still took all the power he could have obtained.

[Red Fel]

Hello, New Friend. Don't think I can't hear your invisible text.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/0c470c86ea0ebfc6ef6729f21123ede0/tumblr_mewz9eYz6n1ro8cnpo1_500.gif


Greetings to the Playground!
I'm building a LE Dread Necromancer (specifically, a Minionmancer), but I need help giving him some character. He's not very fleshed out yet, pun very much intended. I have his build basically done, but he lacks anything that gives him depth. I do have a couple ideas however, to help you help me.

Help, yes... I'll do that.


1) Fear/Dislike of Blood. I thought it'd be cool to play a character who has a neat phobia, and since he really loses nothing from fear of blood mechanically, it doesn't hurt. I'm not sure how or why it would come to be.

This, my dear New Friend, is simplicity itself. What is blood? Blood is life, nothing less. It is the single most necessary component of living creatures. Even plants bleed, after a fashion. Only those delightfully obedient mindless automatons, like Undead and Constructs, lack blood.

Why does one become a Necromancer? Oh, so many reasons. Lust for power. Fear of death. Bored on a weekend. But here's a unique one - fear of life. Life is scary. It's random and painful and bright and loud and grating. Living things are the worst of all. Plants grow rampantly and disrupt your orderly existence. People stumble in and out of your life. Animals bark and roar and scratch and bite. Life is everywhere, and it will kill you eventually. Unless you kill it first, warp and twist it, and dominate it to your will. Hence, necromancy.

And within every living thing, there is blood. That magical serum that is the very essence, the very core, the very representation of life. Life ends when the blood is gone. Life flows while blood pumps. Life comes from blood, blood from life.

From this uniquely mad position, the logic flows neatly. Blood brings life. Life is terrifying. We would all be better off if life ended. But as long as there is blood, that won't happen. Blood is the source of all the pain I suffer, because it is the source of life.

Fear the blood.


2) Extreme Depravity. Basically, he's willing to do anything, no matter the cost to his morality. It's not that he lacks morals (i.e. doesn't know evil from good), but he instead revels in evil and debauchery. The deepest end of the alignment pool as it were. I get the feeling that might be too broad or cliche.

It is very broad, and very cliche. It also raises questions of how Lawful he is; you say you're going for LE, that means he has some principles. Not necessarily morals, but ethics. Guiding creed. Code of conduct. Something.

More importantly, "extreme depravity" can frequently result in "extreme jerkwad" in a PC. Keep in mind that, unless you're designing a character for a solo campaign, your PC needs to be able to play well with others. And that means not being an unstable whackjob who hangs mutilated puppies from orphanage doors for the giggles.

Instead, I'd give him a specific compulsion. For example, a creepy, borderline fetishistic appreciation for anything without blood or free will. Animated statues? Wide-eyed gasp. Well-constructed skeletal soldiers? Squee of joy. Living castle? Highly inappropriate moaning and a request for a moment to himself.

Alternatively, a barely-veiled loathing of living creatures, particularly uncontrolled ones, works just as well. See a puppy running off of the leash? That creature is out of control, and gets kicked. A satisfied smirk when you see something beaten into subservient submission. That's cruel and creepy, but not depraved and psychotic.


Mostly, I need help determining personality traits, goals/motivation, and how everything would tie together. Ideas on how to show how depraved and evil he is would be nice too.

Well, as I've said, that depends on the person. Aside from what's been discussed above, you've told me precious little. Formative life events? Upbringing? Favorite hobbies? Role models? Patron deity? Details matter, New Friend.

[The Bandicoot]

/thread as only Redfel can do

[GnomishPride]

Thanks for the help!
You've given me a lot of food for thought, and I think I can hammer out a half-decent personality/backstory. :smalltongue:

[LoyalPaladin]

Thanks for the help!
You've given me a lot of food for thought, and I think I can hammer out a half-decent personality/backstory. :smalltongue:
Wait, am I late to the smiting party?!

[Telonius]

Blood is life, but it's also vulnerability. Everything that bleeds, dies. The birds, the animals, your loved ones, everything and everyone you couldn't save. It's constantly flowing inside you. You hear it whenever you close your eyes, a heartbeat in the silence. A reminder of mortality, of endings. And endings? That's where you find the pain. Not in the blade that cuts, but in the blood that leaves. And the biggest ending of all is Death. So don't give in to that. Let it drain away, and death itself will die. You will be invincible. The losses you suffered? Gone. No one will be able to take anything from you anymore. No more endings.

[Red Fel]

Wait, am I late to the smiting party?!

Go home, LP. This one is already mine.

[LoyalPaladin]

Go home, LP. This one is already mine.
*shoulders holy avenger* Dangit. I never get to have fun anymore. Well, let me know if he does anything evil. I'll take care of it.

[Zaq]

A big part will be what you intend to do. You said "I'm playing this here villain." Does that mean that you're the GM, and this character is occupying the "villain" role in a campaign (i.e., opposed by The Party, whether they're do-gooders or brooding anitheroes or just random murderhoboes who happen to get spotlight time)? Or is this a character who's meant to fit into a group, and you're just calling them a "villain" (as opposed to a "hero") because they happen to be evil? Because that's going to have a huge effect on what aspects of the personality will be allowed to shine forth at the table.

In either case, you need a broad explanation of motivation. If they're a PC, why are they working with the party? (This question is equally important whether the party is of mixed alignment or whether it's an all-evil group, but naturally, you'd approach the question differently depending on which of those situations happens to be the case.) Are these people genuine friends? Tense allies? Unwitting pawns? Something else? Any of these are workable, but again, that'll definitely affect how you come across at the table. Furthermore, why is the party working with you? It's perfectly acceptable to play a depraved and evil character (if the group's mature enough to handle it), but if you're intentionally being weird and creepy (or going for "extreme depravity"), you need an explanation as to why your group puts up with you. Might be circumstance, might be genuine deep friendship, might be mutual loyalty to a greater cause, but there's gotta be something holding the implied social contract together.

If you're not a PC, what are you doing and why does it matter? Are you trying to raise an army of undead to conquer something? Are you the stereotypical mad arcanist holed up in your lair and conducting ever-kookier experiments? Do you actively wish to harm people who aren't directly harassing you, or do you mostly want to be left alone (possibly making gory examples of people who don't respect that)? If you're occupying the "villain" role of the story, that means that you're doing something that the protagonists are going to oppose and want to stop. (A character who keeps to themselves and doesn't interfere with the protagonists isn't a villain, even if the protagonists don't like them.) What is that something? Just as importantly, why haven't you already done it?

You're a minionmaster necromancer. That means you need bodies to turn into undead. Where do they come from? Do you go grave-robbing, or do you prefer to procure, shall we say, fresher specimens? If you go adventuring (with the typical implications of killing things and taking their stuff), are you more of the "waste not, want not" kind of necromancer who simply uses bodies that you already find/generate, or do you go killing people specifically to turn them into undead (and for no other major reason)? If so, what kinds of people fall under your desire?

How do you feel about the undead you create? Do you view them as tools? As friends (unequal friends if they're Rebuked/Commanded/under your control, but still friends, at least in your twisted viewpoint)? As progeny/children? As pets? Do you put them on a pedestal and view them as superior to the living? Do you want to become one (necropolitan, lich, or otherwise), and if so, what plans have you put in place towards achieving that end? If not, why not? Do you consider a well-made undead specimen a work of art? Do you take it personally if one gets destroyed? Do you name them? Do you talk to them when you're not ordering them around? If you have any non-mindless ones, do you ask their opinions? Bringing in mechanical considerations for a moment, there's a maximum quantity of undead you can have under your sway at any one point; when you reach or approach that limit, do you ever feel a desire to thin the herd and sacrifice some of your older or weaker specimens to allow you to reanimate a particularly fine new body, or would you only part with them if forced to?

Most other people don't like undead. When you have to deal with these people (say you need to just do a supply run at a local town; not necessarily a long-term interaction, but still something that must be done), how do you deal with that prejudice? Do you leave your undead army at home and try to present yourself as a "normal guy" for as long as it takes to do your errands? Do you just intimidate anyone who doesn't accept you until they either leave you alone or let you do what you came to do? Do you try to sway their opinions?

Lots of room to explore a character like this, but I think the first big question is what role they're going to play in the story (protagonist, antagonist, or something else entirely).

[Svata]

Hello, New Friend. Don't think I can't hear your invisible text.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/0c470c86ea0ebfc6ef6729f21123ede0/tumblr_mewz9eYz6n1ro8cnpo1_500.gif



Help, yes... I'll do that.



This, my dear New Friend, is simplicity itself. What is blood? Blood is life, nothing less. It is the single most necessary component of living creatures. Even plants bleed, after a fashion. Only those delightfully obedient mindless automatons, like Undead and Constructs, lack blood.

Why does one become a Necromancer? Oh, so many reasons. Lust for power. Fear of death. Bored on a weekend. But here's a unique one - fear of life. Life is scary. It's random and painful and bright and loud and grating. Living things are the worst of all. Plants grow rampantly and disrupt your orderly existence. People stumble in and out of your life. Animals bark and roar and scratch and bite. Life is everywhere, and it will kill you eventually. Unless you kill it first, warp and twist it, and dominate it to your will. Hence, necromancy.

And within every living thing, there is blood. That magical serum that is the very essence, the very core, the very representation of life. Life ends when the blood is gone. Life flows while blood pumps. Life comes from blood, blood from life.

From this uniquely mad position, the logic flows neatly. Blood brings life. Life is terrifying. We would all be better off if life ended. But as long as there is blood, that won't happen. Blood is the source of all the pain I suffer, because it is the source of life.

Fear the blood.



It is very broad, and very cliche. It also raises questions of how Lawful he is; you say you're going for LE, that means he has some principles. Not necessarily morals, but ethics. Guiding creed. Code of conduct. Something.

More importantly, "extreme depravity" can frequently result in "extreme jerkwad" in a PC. Keep in mind that, unless you're designing a character for a solo campaign, your PC needs to be able to play well with others. And that means not being an unstable whackjob who hangs mutilated puppies from orphanage doors for the giggles.

Instead, I'd give him a specific compulsion. For example, a creepy, borderline fetishistic appreciation for anything without blood or free will. Animated statues? Wide-eyed gasp. Well-constructed skeletal soldiers? Squee of joy. Living castle? Highly inappropriate moaning and a request for a moment to himself.

Alternatively, a barely-veiled loathing of living creatures, particularly uncontrolled ones, works just as well. See a puppy running off of the leash? That creature is out of control, and gets kicked. A satisfied smirk when you see something beaten into subservient submission. That's cruel and creepy, but not depraved and psychotic.



Well, as I've said, that depends on the person. Aside from what's been discussed above, you've told me precious little. Formative life events? Upbringing? Favorite hobbies? Role models? Patron deity? Details matter, New Friend.

*is heavily weighing good vs evil* On the one hand, Words of Creation. On the other, sheer, unmitigated style

[FocusWolf413]

*is heavily weighing good vs evil* On the one hand, Words of Creation. On the other, sheer, unmitigated style

Good feats are okay, but really, do cool abilities make you fall in love with your characters? I think not.

[Red Fel]

*is heavily weighing good vs evil* On the one hand, Words of Creation. On the other, sheer, unmitigated style

There is only one answer to that. Well, one answer, several ways to say it.

https://media.giphy.com/media/XiuzmIFdeSX9m/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/VXSJtvllgcKY0/giphy.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/20140112/4951121/alex-delarge-arancia-meccanica-o.gif

You were saying something about words? I think these pictures are worth a few thousand.

[TheBrassDuke]

Go home, LP. This one is already mine.

I love when Red Fel shows up!

[OldTrees1]

Greetings to the Playground!
2) Extreme Depravity. Basically, he's willing to do anything, no matter the cost to his morality. It's not that he lacks morals (i.e. doesn't know evil from good), but he instead revels in evil and debauchery. The deepest end of the alignment pool as it were. I get the feeling that might be too broad or cliche.
Mostly, I need help determining personality traits, goals/motivation, and how everything would tie together. Ideas on how to show how depraved and evil he is would be nice too.
Thanks in advance!
Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel

When you go deep enough to arrive at "Evil for evil's sake" or written out "Desire for each and every choice to choose the options one ought not pick", you run into demonstrably self contradicting positions. As such you end up with a bit of insanity. Such insanity does not sufficiently explain the position without detail though.

Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel I wish Red Fel had addressed this specifically rather than ignoring it in his high quality post up above.

However I will do my best at giving a snapshot of one realistic example of that insanity:
Morality is a joke. A cruel joke. We humans were granted just enough abilities to be laden with the duties of a moral agent without the faculties to know how we were doing. Those that stare at it longer, the same ones that theoretically are better guessers, become more and more aware of the disconnect between their responsibilities and their capabilities. This torturous disconnect cruelly inflicted upon us is an outrage to be rebelled against. We cannot know we know good, but we sure can know we know evil! We shall rebel in the only way we can. Evil for its own sake shall be our revenge upon our condition. To me! For freedom from this torture, for revenge against our lot, for Evil!

[Red Fel]

When you go deep enough to arrive at "Evil for evil's sake" or written out "Desire for each and every choice to choose the options one ought not pick", you run into demonstrably self contradicting positions. As such you end up with a bit of insanity. Such insanity does not sufficiently explain the position without detail though.

Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel I wish Red Fel had addressed this specifically rather than ignoring it in his high quality post up above.

Be careful what you wish for, Friend. As a DM, I would rule that wishing to change somebody else's non-recent past action falls into that lovely little dangerous area of the spell...

However, you make a point. Although I touched on the idea of "Evil for evil's sake" (in equating "extreme depravity" with "extreme jerkwad"), I didn't go into details. There is a reason for that, and it is this: I'm tired of it and shouldn't have to.

One of the cardinal rules of gaming, as I and others have frequently espoused, is Don't be a dingus. A character who is compelled to do the worst possible thing, who seeks out in every situation what you refer to as "the options one ought not pick," is frequently more a caricature than a character. Not only is it disruptive, it's also lacking in verisimilitude. The character is a disturbing mash-up of Snidely Whiplash and Hannibal Lecter, and despite loving both characters I do not love their mutant bastard offspring.

You can make the argument that this is a mentally ill character. And that's a fair argument. Mental illness can produce some very compelling RP. But I generally prefer mental illnesses in characters to be mild - delusions, quirks, or particular tendencies - rather than severe - all-consuming and irrational compulsions that take the reins away from the player. In my illustration above, the whole complex about blood is a mild but noticeable mania - much like Col. Ripper's obsession with the Communists trying to sap our "precious bodily fluids" in Dr. Strangelove, this is a character obsessed with how blood contaminates everything with wretched life. That's a delusion that's still playable. By contrast, a character designed to do the worst possible thing suffers from a pretty severe compulsion, to a degree where one can argue he's barely a PC at all; the player simply controls him until the opportunity to wrong arises, at which point the player loses all control and the PC goes NPC long enough to wrong.

And that's the point. You take crazy too far and it comes right back around to Don't be a dingus. When you create a character who has the irrational, involuntary, and irresistible compulsion to be a dingus, you've gone too far.

I prefer to assume that players don't want that kind of character. So when I respond to a question like that, I don't go in that direction.


However I will do my best at giving a snapshot of one realistic example of that insanity:
Morality is a joke. A cruel joke. We humans were granted just enough abilities to be laden with the duties of a moral agent without the faculties to know how we were doing. Those that stare at it longer, the same ones that theoretically are better guessers, become more and more aware of the disconnect between their responsibilities and their capabilities. This torturous disconnect cruelly inflicted upon us is an outrage to be rebelled against. We cannot know we know good, but we sure can know we know evil! We shall rebel in the only way we can. Evil for its own sake shall be our revenge upon our condition. To me! For freedom from this torture, for revenge against our lot, for Evil!

See, this actually doesn't work for me. It's a clever mantra, I'll give you credit for that, but even "Evil for evil's sake" is for something greater than "for Evil!" It's "for Power!" or "for Revenge!" or "for Recognition!" There's something underlying the Evil. Otherwise, again, it's just a caricature.

Even when I run Evil Outsiders they don't indulge in "Evil for evil's sake." There's always a point. To grow strong. To satisfy a hunger. To corrupt that which they despise. To make mockery of their foes. Or even the simple "It's the only thing I'm good at." But there's a point, beyond just "Evil." That's what makes it compelling. That's what makes it tempting.

[OldTrees1]

Be careful what you wish for, Friend. As a DM, I would rule that wishing to change somebody else's non-recent past action falls into that lovely little dangerous area of the spell...
I wish to be more careful with my wishes. :smallbiggrin:


However, you make a point. Although I touched on the idea of "Evil for evil's sake" (in equating "extreme depravity" with "extreme jerkwad"), I didn't go into details. There is a reason for that, and it is this: I'm tired of it and shouldn't have to.

One of the cardinal rules of gaming, as I and others have frequently espoused, is Don't be a dingus. A character who is compelled to do the worst possible thing, who seeks out in every situation what you refer to as "the options one ought not pick," is frequently more a caricature than a character. Not only is it disruptive, it's also lacking in verisimilitude. The character is a disturbing mash-up of Snidely Whiplash and Hannibal Lecter, and despite loving both characters I do not love their mutant bastard offspring.
I was kinda hoping that someone as good at describing character and at describing evil as you might know of a more reasonable, dare I say realistic, characterization. As you saw, I fail when making such an attempt (rejection of a tough/impossible problem and deliberately selecting the known wrong answer instead). The idea is just too alien to me.

However this is a good point, if a theoretical persona is too hard to conceptualize without lacking verisimilitude, then it makes a poor choice for Roleplay.

Sidenote: I agree completely that even if such a persona is possible, it would be inappropriate for outsiders.

[Red Fel]

I wish to be more careful with my wishes. :smallbiggrin:

Granted. You'll learn to be extraordinarily careful with your wishes when you no longer have a tongue to use while making them. Now hold still while I find a spoon.


I was kinda hoping that someone as good at describing character and at describing evil as you might know of a more reasonable, dare I say realistic, characterization. As you saw, I fail when making such an attempt (rejection of a tough/impossible problem and deliberately selecting the known wrong answer instead). The idea is just too alien to me.

And I can't fault you for that. In many ways, characterizing Evil is hard. Most people simply can't wrap their heads around the sort of person who would do such terrible things, and that is not a bad thing at all.

The trick is to start in simple terms, and take them to an illogical or frightening extreme. For example, the desire to protect one's loved ones is perfectly natural and admirable. The desire to hurt those who threaten one's loved ones is at least understandable. The desire to preemptively annihilate half of a continent due to a misguided belief that there are those among the population to be destroyed who pose a threat to one's loved ones is twisted, horrifying, and disturbed - but if we follow it from the other two steps, it almost makes sense.

That's how you develop the characterization. Start from entirely human positions - wants, loves, fears, hates. Draw them out. Stretch them. Warp them. Make them unreasonably large, unbearably overwhelming. Evil is simply a natural reaction to having normal emotional states dragged to extremes.


However this is a good point, if a theoretical persona is too hard to conceptualize without lacking verisimilitude, then it makes a poor choice for Roleplay.

Precisely. If you can't wrap your head around a character, or if you step back and say "It makes no sense to do that," then you probably shouldn't be playing that character - or at least, not in that way.

[Gallywix]

I am another player in the Champagne gnomishpride is in. I am a alu-demon fiend of corruption/possession. My role in the party is spy/puppet master. I have the basics of my character but we are still working on a way our characters met and why we are working together. I was likely raised in the abyss and sent to the material plane for some greater purpose (demon lord still yet to be decided. probably pazuzu, Malcanthe, or Graz'zt) or just to generaly tempt or destroy mortals. I don't know how that fits with a necromancer though. Any advice? I have been working on my corruption but I would apreceate some advice on that to.

Plz no hate. I new. first post actualy.:smalltongue:

[GnomishPride]

The trick is to start in simple terms, and take them to an illogical or frightening extreme. For example, the desire to protect one's loved ones is perfectly natural and admirable. The desire to hurt those who threaten one's loved ones is at least understandable. The desire to preemptively annihilate half of a continent due to a misguided belief that there are those among the population to be destroyed who pose a threat to one's loved ones is twisted, horrifying, and disturbed - but if we follow it from the other two steps, it almost makes sense.

That's how you develop the characterization. Start from entirely human positions - wants, loves, fears, hates. Draw them out. Stretch them. Warp them. Make them unreasonably large, unbearably overwhelming. Evil is simply a natural reaction to having normal emotional states dragged to extremes.


Though that was addressed to someone else, I'm going to take it anyway because it's really helpful. In fact, it was rather what I was hoping to get advice on (though all your posts are, as to be expected, deliciously evil).

[OldTrees1]

Though that was addressed to someone else, I'm going to take it anyway because it's really helpful. In fact, it was rather what I was hoping to get advice on (though all your posts are, as to be expected, deliciously evil).

*Facepalm* If you wanted Intelligent Evil instead of Evil for its own sake, then you will want to rephrase #2 in future. Otherwise you might end up with some poor answers.

However further reading for Intelligent Evil includes:
Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil by Red Fel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil)


I am another player in the Champagne gnomishpride is in. I am a alu-demon fiend of corruption/possession. My role in the party is spy/puppet master. I have the basics of my character but we are still working on a way our characters met and why we are working together. I was likely raised in the abyss and sent to the material plane for some greater purpose (demon lord still yet to be decided. probably pazuzu, Malcanthe, or Graz'zt) or just to generaly tempt or destroy mortals. I don't know how that fits with a necromancer though. Any advice? I have been working on my corruption but I would apreceate some advice on that to.

Plz no hate. I new. first post actualy.:smalltongue:

Necromancy I know! Both the Corrupter and the Necromancer like to focus on the soul. The corrupter is focused on the moral character of the soul while the Necromancer is focused on how life forms around the soul (particularly the artificial life of undeath). A shared passion/interest is a great start for many kinds of arrangements/associations.

[GnomishPride]

*Facepalm* If you wanted Intelligent Evil instead of Evil for its own sake, then you will want to rephrase #2 in future. Otherwise you might end up with some poor answers.

However further reading for Intelligent Evil includes:
Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil by Red Fel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil)


Oops! Thanks for the tip and the guidebook rulebook. #2 was pretty vague and open to poor interpretation, I must admit. Intelligent Evil was probably more up my alley (as Red Fel indirectly pointed out in his first post).

The LE Guidebook is now a favorite. Bookmarked!

[Gallywix]

GnomishPride is after the soul for reanimation purposes. I likely ether want the soul for monetary value, to please abyssal masters, to toy with, for the general purposes of corrupting pure individuals or the challenge involved in getting a mortal to sign there soul away. We can't both succeed at our goal for each individual. Well it is true this is a focus of both of us I think it would turn into more of a competition that a mutual interest with witch to build a relationship off of.
The other characters are a filthy ritch artificer (home-brew class. search artificer d20 and it is the second thing to pop up) that builds a monopoly on magic items (cohort to me), a wizard that uses Crossbreeding Flesh And Blood rules to make bizarre creatures to do his bidding, me (alu-demon fiend of corruption/possession), GnomishPride (dread necromancer), a character named boing witch is effectively sonic with four arms (run 180ft up, full attack, run 180 ft away, no opportunity attacks. don't ask me how it works.) and a diresinger (cohort to GnomishPride). What I have so far Is the artificer is the one that keeps the party together with all of us working together because he is needed so we can get all of the top teir stuffs to continue out evil Schemes. The problems with this are
1) why would we work together and not separate for the same person if we don't like each other.
2) artificer is technically a cohort so this kind of puts him in a position above the party instead of below witch is concerning and confusing
3) we might fight over the gear and stuff because thats what evil people do
I am sure you can come up with other problems. I have yet to think up a logistical reason why we would be allies not enemies but if I or one of you can It would certainly help fleshing out the characters, especially in a way that fits with everyone.

[Svata]

There is only one answer to that. Well, one answer, several ways to say it.

https://media.giphy.com/media/XiuzmIFdeSX9m/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/VXSJtvllgcKY0/giphy.gif

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view7/20140112/4951121/alex-delarge-arancia-meccanica-o.gif

You were saying something about words? I think these pictures are worth a few thousand.

Decision made. Style it is. Though I may not slip into lawfulness so easily. And chaotic evil is just... distasteful. Though I hope that won't be too much of a problem.

[Ikitavi]

In my campaign, necromancy has a history of boom and bust. There are periods where the necromantic league was on the march and looked unstoppable, and periods when pretty much everything associated with necromancy was burned.

So would-be necromancers have to do experiments to rediscover the basics about creating and controlling undead.

Think Nazi medical experiments, with similar self-serving justification. Within their own group, the people who have accepted the basic axioms of necromanticly run societies, they expect to be taken as heroes, or respected teachers. Because they are reviving a science that will lead to free labor, and societies free of the need to train warriors.

However, necromantic management style generally leads to low morale among the living underlings. People are just bodies, just another commodity. Why pay a salary when you can spend 25 gp per HD on onyx and get a permanent laborer who doesn't talk back or whine about hazardous living conditions?

So first boss encounter for the players was a relatively low level necromancer who had been doing research on how to make ghouls. So he had a couple of henchmen with maces with paralysis toxin from the newly created ghouls, capturing subjects to experiment on. Experiments like "How long does it take starving prisoners fed on ghoul flesh to turn into ghouls" or "What is the precise amount of flesh that ghouls need to eat off a living prisoner for the subject to have the optimal chance of 'evolving' into a ghoul?"

The point is that the boss was in the process of something, he wasn't just standing around in a room waiting for PCs to attack.

So, some questions about your necromancer:
Who taught them? Are they self taught? Taught by a fiendish familiar? Learned from long lost books? A strict teacher? What did they feel about their teacher? Admire, strive to emulate? Hate and envy, a desire to show them up, or exceed them at some task they attempted? Disgust at the softness of their teacher?

Do they have an apprentice? Fans? Toadies? Stockholm syndrome prisoner?

What tactics do they prefer? Big hammer army swamping ships or isolated villages? Cat and mouse games with powerful undead and disguise? Bluff and access, where the undead are used as a labor force, perhaps as longshoreman or teamsters. And if anyone complains about unions, he says, "Anyone can JOIN my longshoremen, leaving requires much higher level magic. ;) "

Is he a newcomer to the political scene, or someone tied to old power, who is established and has been slowly worming his way into a more powerful position? Or an upstart willing and able to overthrow the whole order, with the allies and enemies that implies.

[Ikitavi]

A thing to think about is that if you want this to be a long running villain in the campaign, it can be an error to overdo it on the evil. Because the players will want to blot it from the universe. And then burn the body. And then dunk the ashes into holy water. And then do some research to find out if they need to do anything more.

If you want a long running villain, think a bit in terms of what might cause the players to either spare it or not directly engage your villain. Perhaps he is merely one amongst a bunch of villainous oligarchs, and what is really to choose between a necromancer and a slaver, or a necromancer and a drug dealer, or a necromancer and a demon worshiper? Is a necromancer who just wants power over his own castle full of pawns worse than the monster raising an army that might swept the continent?

[Red Fel]

However further reading for Intelligent Evil includes:
Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil by Red Fel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil)

Hear that, folks? Not just Lawful Evil. Intelligent Evil.

Yep, I'll take credit for that.


Oops! Thanks for the tip and the guidebook rulebook. #2 was pretty vague and open to poor interpretation, I must admit. Intelligent Evil was probably more up my alley (as Red Fel indirectly pointed out in his first post).

The LE Guidebook is now a favorite. Bookmarked!

Aw, shucks, you're going to make me blush.


Decision made. Style it is. Though I may not slip into lawfulness so easily. And chaotic evil is just... distasteful. Though I hope that won't be too much of a problem.

Hey, I'm just here to help. We can't all be perfect me LE, after all. Remember the mantra: Every day, in every way, I'm getting more and more nightmarish.

Do you, chief, do you.

[Segev]

I find the easiest way to make a believable evil character is to be goal-oriented. I'm a fan of enlightened self-interest, which has the ironic effect of largely making the enlightened evil and enlightened good person engage in remarkably similar behaviors on the surface (simply because morality IS objective, and a fair portion of moral codeces is devoted to simply providing a blueprint for pareto-optimal decision-making, wherein your long-term well-being is maximized even if your short-term is apparently harmed).

But I digress.

The thing about evil people is that they don't care about others except in how they're useful. And if your optimization window is narrow enough, you don't care about rising tides raising all ships; you just want to get your ship as high as you can in that window because you won't be around to enjoy the higher baseline's effect on your own position further in the future.

Which is to say: evil people typically have a goal. Define that goal, and determine how dedicated they are towards it. If some moral scruple gets in the way of that goal, the measure of how evil they are is how quickly they drop that scruple like a bad habit. The faster they justify violating it, or simply declare it to be unimportant, the more wicked they are.

Ethics, too, get in the way of goals. Our friend Red Fel will tell you that ethics serve a purpose, and he's right. But when they are in the way of your goal, it is time to weigh just how important they are. Do they really serve you better than taking the quickest route to your goal? The less Lawful you are, the more your answer will be to violate them. Again, depending on your optimization window; the shorter-term, the less important ethics are. Ethics, after all, like morals, only serve to help with long-term maximization of reward functions by raising the overall baseline.

But the LE individual tends to value them more highly, perhaps out of (well-developed) habit. Having grown used to the longer-term reward optimization, he forgets to reconsider options when short-term overrides...or when the adherence to ethics won't actually help, if only because there are no witnesses.