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View Full Version : Optimization Battlemaster 5/Mastermind 15 - Advantage for Days



Flashy
2016-02-22, 01:17 AM
Take any race that lets you start with a 16 in strength. That's Mountain Dwarf, Half Orc, Dragonborn, and Human. Mountain Dwarf is maybe a little more appealing in point buy games, Half Orc and Dragonborn are both fairly standard picks, and Vuman lets you play with extra feats. That's less appealing than usual since for the most part this build doesn't need feats but you could always take Ritual Caster, Resilient: Whatever, or Martial Adept.

1-5 Battlemaster

1st level: For equipment you take chain mail, a shield, and a rapier. Take the armored fighting style. Dueling would also work, but since this build is largely focused on shoving you aren't getting the most value out of it. Your skill proficiencies should include Athletics.
2nd level: Action Surge! This gets more valuable later when you'll be able to shove up to four people prone in a turn, but for now it's still handy.
3rd level: You take the Battlemaster archetype, picking Riposte, Trip Attack, and any third maneuver of your choice. I'm partial to Manuevering or Goading Attack, but really anything works here.
4th level: ASI goes into +2 Strength. Don't bother with Shield Master. It looks appealing, but by 8th level you'll have better uses for your bonus action than knocking people over. This character prefers to either substitute shoves for attacks or, if they absolutely positively need to make two damaging attacks in a round, use Trip Attack.
5th level: Extra Attack. Most turns you'll probably shove an opponent down and then attack them once, but depending how melee heavy your party is it might be valuable to shove multiple enemies down.

6-20 Mastermind

6th level: Expertise goes into athletics. With double proficiency and 18 strength you're now so good at pushing people over it's essentially broken. Sneak attack means that your ripostes hit harder, your one attack on your own turn hits harder, and with your superiority dice your damage should stay fairly competitive for the rest of the game. Since you're shoving everyone prone you'll pretty much permanently have advantage. Riposte with 21 AC (since you've probably picked up platemail by now) also means you're also landing reaction sneak attacks much more reliably than a single classed rogue. This is when the build really starts to come online.
7th level: Cunning action is neat, but not really anything this build relies on. Your real use for this comes next level.
8th level: Mastermind features! Bonus action Help with a range of 30' is stupid good. At this point you're shoving at least one enemy prone per round, you're granting at least one ally advantage per round, and you're still making two attacks a reasonable amount of the time.
9th-20th level: Keep progressing rogue. You should probably max strength at 9th level, but after that you've got a fair amount of flexibility with your ASIs. Resilient: Dex to get full value out of Evasion isn't a bad idea, and you probably could stand to pick up an extra superiority die through Martial Adept. With Reliable Talent at 16th level you probably never lose a contested athletics check ever again. This ends at 20th level with a hideously reliable 8d6 sneak attack, 21 AC, and a minimum athletics check of 26.


This build also works as...

1 Battlemaster
2 Mastermind
3-6 Battlemaster
7-20 Mastermind

...if you're willing to delay the extra attack for early entry on athletics expertise.

Thoughts and criticisms? Have I overlooked some interaction that prevents this from working? Is it even a good idea?

Talamare
2016-02-22, 01:36 AM
Help gives 1 ally Advantage on his next attack, right?

Prone gives all allies Advantage on all attacks, right? (*non ranged)

Explain to me the part where it's better to use my bonus action to Help instead of Shove?

Flashy
2016-02-22, 01:40 AM
Help gives 1 ally Advantage on his next attack, right?

Prone gives all allies Advantage on all attacks, right? (*non ranged)

Explain to me the part where it's better to use my bonus action to Help instead of Shove?

Shove requires adjacency in a way that the mastermind feature doesn't. If you're standing in a big tight group with your party bashing at a big tight group of the enemy then shove is unquestionably better, but if you've got a ranged component or the fight is spread over a moderate area I'd argue that the added flexibility of the mastermind feature is more useful. Among other things you can use it to cancel out the disadvantage you're inflicting on ranged party members who are trying to shoot at enemies you've just knocked prone. Prone is fantastic, but it relies on initiative order and proximity pretty heavily.

RickAllison
2016-02-22, 01:44 AM
Help gives 1 ally Advantage on his next attack, right?

Prone gives all allies Advantage on all attacks, right? (*non ranged)

Explain to me the part where it's better to use my bonus action to Help instead of Shove?

I think your addendum clears part of it up. Extra Attack with Shove lets you down up to two enemies for your melee party members to dispatch, while the option for bonus action help can be directed toward your friendly neighborhood caster or ranged attacker. Whether it's worth it? That's for calculators more familiar with the system than me to decide!

Hairfish
2016-02-22, 05:01 AM
You might also consider net fighting, going all Champion Fighter, and attacking restrained targets with a polearm. Take the Close Quarters Shooter fighting style (from UA - Underdark), and Sharpshooter, GWM, and Polearm feats. Maybe also Magic Initiate so you can use Mending to repair all your nets.

Between the GWM damage bonus and the ridiculous crit rate Champions get with advantage, you'll easily surpass the Sneak Attack damage of your proposed build.

Foxhound438
2016-02-22, 02:51 PM
personally i like barbarian 5/ any rogue 15, advantage on top of expertise means you will almost never lose that contest. remember also if you have a free hand you can knock down and then grapple (sitting on them), so you're standing and they're prone with 0 movement, meaning they can't get up until they break free, and have disadvantage to hitting you back.

i like arcane trickster so you can enlarge yourself at rogue 8 to grapple huge targets.

wolf barb gives your allies advantage, which makes it so your ranged friends' disad to hitting the prone creature is negated.

Biggstick
2016-02-22, 03:51 PM
wolf barb gives your allies advantage, which makes it so your ranged friends' disad to hitting the prone creature is negated.

The wolf totem only gives your melee allies advantage, not ranged.

Only other comment on the build is that it's a bit MAD in having to have a minimum 13 dex plus maxing str and having a respectable con. Other then that it's a sweet little set-up.