Not Having fun/spell slot drain new cleric

[Kipwar]

Hi All,

Bit of an explanation, but me and a few friends all decided to start playing dnd 5e in about October and have been doing sessions every 2 weeks since. We are all completely new to dnd, even the DM, but not fantasy roleplaying in general (I have been a big fan of the games released on PC when I was in my teens Baldurs Gate 2, Icewind Dale etc).

Anyway.... my problem lies with my Life Domain Cleric, I am level 3 and finding pretty much every fight is ending up with me using between 70% to 100% of my available spells, majority of the time healing allies. Some fights I can't even contribute to buffing or debuffing. I am finding this very dull/frustrating. This in turn is making it 1 battle then rest, sometimes 2 which seems illogical and silly when going through a dungeon. We have also had about 6-7 people die (well 0 hp)

My question is, is this normal? I am not expecting easy fights, far from it, I grew up on hard videogames and love a challenge. It just seems every fight is near death, and this is draining my interest in playing cleric.

Any help or questions welcome, I will give any information I can.

[ImSAMazing]

Well, your problem could be because many factors. But, let's start with the first law of healing:
You shall not heal in combat, unless absolutely necessary(one death save left until death for example)!

A buff like Bless or a debuff like Bane is better than a Cure Wounds spell. You can't do anything wrong with a Bless. Well, except when you Bless the enemy. Or his minions. Or both the enemy and his minions.

A few questions so GiantITP can help you better:

How many encounters a day do you normally have?(Officially it should be 6-8 medium encounters)
Party composition? If you have 5 Wizards all in melee, then I understand why you need to heal :smallbiggrin:
What spells do you prepare most of the time?


Also, when you say rest, what do you mean? Short or long rest? Quite a difference. Also note that by RAW you may only take a long rest once a day.

I am sorry, but I can't help you any further at the moment.

[Zalabim]

For starters, your group should be taking some short rests to use Hit Dice to heal. You can't heal every HP yourself. It's just not possible. The other thing is to stop thinking of 0 HP as dead PC. There are few enemies where this is the stake. You'll usually have a round or three to respond. 0 HP can be fixed by any amount of healing, like Healing Word or your Life domain channel divinity. Any damage beyond 0 is wasted, so this also reduces the amount of HP you're needing to heal. Look at your channel divinity. It only heals up to half HP. Let them use Hit Dice to heal up beyond that. Healing spells are to prevent death, not to top off HP bars.

Now that you're level 3, you have access to prayer of healing. If everyone is getting pressed hard, the party-wide healing is efficient. Everyone will appreciate it. With a 10 minute casting time, you'll also not cast it during battles, which you should appreciate. With this new appreciation for out of battle healing, look for some in-battle spells you like. Attacking, with a weapon or a cantrip, is usually a better use of your action than casting cure wounds.

[Ackbladder]

I would think it is not normal, at least in the groups I play with.

If I'm the cleric, no one is getting healed during combat, except perhaps for a Healing Word to get some clown back up on their feet. It is up to everyone in the group to stay alive and keep themselves functioning.

I think in-combat healing is very inefficient anyway - you're using your action plus a spell slot to heal 1d8+5 (say) and most monsters are doing more than that on a decent hit. This is not WoW - there is no dedicated, spamming healer role.

What does the rest of your group look like? Are they being stupid? Is the GM throwing combats at you which are too difficult? Something doesn't seem normal. Can you describe (briefly) a few recent, fairly typical, combats? Are the warrior types the ones needing healing, or do you have reckless rogues and wizards who don't know how to avoid damage?

[downlobot]

Is every encounter a hard+ encounter? More to the point, what is your healing threshold? I.e., at what point will you heal a companion? E.g. 'Help, I'm at 10hp/5hp/2hp!' I am not playing life, but I wait for the silence after they've gone down to pop a healing word. As life, you have a great aoe to get multiple people back on their feet, and it recharges on a short rest. If you try to keep people from going down, that may be a tough change to discuss, but probably worth it. You have more fun things to do, and out of combat healing. Also try to load up on healing potions/convince the fighter to pick up the healer feat for some assistance. Imo. Good luck!

[Citan]

Hi All,

Anyway.... my problem lies with my Life Domain Cleric, I am level 3 and finding pretty much every fight is ending up with me using between 70% to 100% of my available spells, majority of the time healing allies. Some fights I can't even contribute to buffing or debuffing. I am finding this very dull/frustrating. This in turn is making it 1 battle then rest, sometimes 2 which seems illogical and silly when going through a dungeon. We have also had about 6-7 people die (well 0 hp).
Hi OP. :)

Well, it's hard to give an opinion with so few informations. A few wild guesses...
- Your party rushes in and/or does not try to coordinate attacks?
- You have nobody in your group that can tank or control?
- People don't use their hit dice with short rests?
- Encounters are just too hard for your group and level?
A bit of everything?

The most important thing is, if you have no fun you should speak about it. With your fellow players, to inform them you DON'T want to be limited as the healing bot. With your DM maybe, if you feel the encounters are really too harsh for some reason.

With that said, you did take the Life domain so for the first levels it's natural that you tend to focus on healing spells instead of other ones. ;)

The best solution would obviously to find what is the cause of such HP burn and resolve it.

Alternatively, you could once you hit level 4, instead of an ASI, take the Magic Initate Feat on Druid and get Shillelagh, Produce Flame and the most important Goodberries. That way, you can spend "one long rest" just making Goodberries and distribute them to your comrades (and you also get good alternatives to Sacred Flame for mundane offense).
This obviously won't resolve the "in-combat" healing problem. But, it means you can use exclusively Healing Words in combat for an emergency heal. Beyond that, it's up to each player to cover his ass and use Goodberries while not in combat.
The big problem of this is... You lose out an ASI. If your WIS is 16 it's probably not a good choice.
(You could maybe ask your DM if he could craft a quest for you that has learning Goodberries from a Druid as a reward).

An other way to go is for someone in your group, preferably not you but a martial, take the Healer feat which will greatly alleviate the "people dying" problem.
Why not you? Because it means that, worst case worst, your group have 2 people that can get others up at once, and you're each other's backup.
Why a martial? Because they tend to be more often in melee, have generally better survivability and more ASI (Rogue/Fighter) to spend on feats.
Also, since Healer is not stat dependant, everyone will be as good as you would.

Frankly, I'd suggest this last option if it appears there is no significant cause to the fact that combats are that hard. Especially if you have a Fighter in your group. With ASI at 4 and 6, this is a sacrifice he can make for the wellfare of the group.

[Ninja_Prawn]

It sounds to me like your problem is that the encounters are too hard, and there is no variety in difficulty. You should not be taking so much damage on so regular a basis.

Yes, party composition makes a difference, but 5e is fairly tolerant in that regard. Yes, your spell selection matters, but the life domain gives you most of the important spells anyway (though Spirit Guardians at level 5 is a big one you'll want to prepare). And of course too many encounters is problematic, but it sounds like you're not lasting long enough for that to be the issue. Based on your description of your group, I'm guessing it's not your small unit tactics at fault - that's what leads me to suspect the DM.

Maybe they're not multiplying the monster XP values to take into account number of monsters?

Edit: wow, I just got quadruple-ninja'd! Yikes. :smalleek:

[Kipwar]

Well, your problem could be because many factors. But, let's start with the first law of healing:
You shall not heal in combat, unless absolutely necessary(one death save left until death for example)!

A buff like Bless or a debuff like Bane is better than a Cure Wounds spell. You can't do anything wrong with a Bless. Well, except when you Bless the enemy. Or his minions. Or both the enemy and his minions. - If I roll a good initiative I always start with Bless/Bane depending on the situation, usually if I'm behind the enemies, I heal someone

A few questions so GiantITP can help you better:

How many encounters a day do you normally have?(Officially it should be 6-8 medium encounters) - still new to this day term (does it mean per session? or ingame day? per session we have probably 3, maybe 4 max? (last session was 2).
Party composition? If you have 5 Wizards all in melee, then I understand why you need to heal :smallbiggrin: - Party composition is.. Me, Rogue/Arcane trickster, Fighter, Beserker and Monk.
What spells do you prepare most of the time? My current spells, including the life domain ones are..... Bless, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Bane, Spiritual Weapon, Shield Of Faith and the cantrips. Not with my sheets right now, cant remember if I'm missing any. I probably am


Also, when you say rest, what do you mean? Short or long rest? Quite a difference. Also note that by RAW you may only take a long rest once a day. - I am a wood elf cleric, so 4 hours is my long If im correct? again we are new, so 4 hours has kinda become the long for me and the other elf

I am sorry, but I can't help you any further at the moment.

I have replied in the quote :)

[ImSAMazing]

It sounds to me like your problem is that the encounters are too hard, and there is no variety in difficulty. You should not be taking so much damage on so regular a basis.

Yes, party composition makes a difference, but 5e is fairly tolerant in that regard. Yes, your spell selection matters, but the life domain gives you most of the important spells anyway (though Spirit Guardians at level 5 is a big one you'll want to prepare). And of course too many encounters is problematic, but it sounds like you're not lasting long enough for that to be the issue. Based on your description of your group, I'm guessing it's not your small unit tactics at fault - that's what leads me to suspect the DM.

Maybe they're not multiplying the monster XP values to take into account number of monsters?

Edit: wow, I just got quadruple-ninja'd! Yikes. :smalleek:
Yeah, those are a lot of posts right after each other:smallcool:

[Kipwar]

For starters, your group should be taking some short rests to use Hit Dice to heal. You can't heal every HP yourself. It's just not possible. The other thing is to stop thinking of 0 HP as dead PC. There are few enemies where this is the stake. You'll usually have a round or three to respond. 0 HP can be fixed by any amount of healing, like Healing Word or your Life domain channel divinity. Any damage beyond 0 is wasted, so this also reduces the amount of HP you're needing to heal. Look at your channel divinity. It only heals up to half HP. Let them use Hit Dice to heal up beyond that. Healing spells are to prevent death, not to top off HP bars.

Now that you're level 3, you have access to prayer of healing. If everyone is getting pressed hard, the party-wide healing is efficient. Everyone will appreciate it. With a 10 minute casting time, you'll also not cast it during battles, which you should appreciate. With this new appreciation for out of battle healing, look for some in-battle spells you like. Attacking, with a weapon or a cantrip, is usually a better use of your action than casting cure wounds.

Hi Zalabim,

Yeah I have been using my divinity when needed. I think my problem is topping up bars, but this is caused by high damage I feel. for example, I cannot leave the fighter on 15hp due to everything seemingly hitting hard. Again, this might be just me playing Cleric bad!

[JellyPooga]

I am level 3 and finding pretty much every fight is ending up with me using between 70% to 100% of my available spells, majority of the time healing allies.

This seems to be the crux of the problem to me. If you're blowing nearly all your spells on a single fight, then that's on you. You're under no obligation to do so; in fact, it's up to you to ration your spell usage so that you can contribute effectively over the course of the adventuring day.

It's very easy, as a new player, to "go nova". It feels awesome, sure, but leads to problems like the ones you're having.

As others have mentioned; don't "waste" healing in combat. It's an emergency life-saver, not a convenience for your companions. A DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check will stabilise a dying companion until you can finish an encounter and bring him round. That or casting Spare the Dying (a cantrip, I'll remind you).

Healing Kits for other party members, Healing Potions all-round, another party member taking Magic Initiate or Healer...all these things can alleviate the necessity for you to be a walking band-aid. You just happen to be the best at it.

If you really like having on-demand healing spells, though, or are struggling with the spell-rationing, think about investing in a couple of levels of Warlock. Those short-rest recharging Pact Magic slots can be a godsend for the trigger-happy healer!

[ImSAMazing]

I have replied in the quote :)

I mean an adventuring day. So from your last long rest(you now have all your resources back), until your next long rest. The Dungeon Master's Guide suggests you have 6 to 8 medium encounters each adventuring day.

[Kipwar]

I would think it is not normal, at least in the groups I play with.

If I'm the cleric, no one is getting healed during combat, except perhaps for a Healing Word to get some clown back up on their feet. It is up to everyone in the group to stay alive and keep themselves functioning.

I think in-combat healing is very inefficient anyway - you're using your action plus a spell slot to heal 1d8+5 (say) and most monsters are doing more than that on a decent hit. This is not WoW - there is no dedicated, spamming healer role.

What does the rest of your group look like? Are they being stupid? Is the GM throwing combats at you which are too difficult? Something doesn't seem normal. Can you describe (briefly) a few recent, fairly typical, combats? Are the warrior types the ones needing healing, or do you have reckless rogues and wizards who don't know how to avoid damage?

Hi Ackbladder,

I would say I'm using healing word or cure wounds pretty much every turn, mostly healing word as a bonus. Due to not having war caster yet, I am also having to stand back.

Rest of the group is..... Rogue/Arcane Trickster, Fighter. Monk and Berserker. Sometimes people cant make it due to work etc, so we might run with 3 or 4 of us. the last sessions two recent battles were......

Me, Fighter and Monk vs 2 Hobgoblins. Used up all my spell slots due to damage taken (I did use a guiding bolt however and probably a waste for a life cleric?), not anything specific I can remember from it really, but we actually did well in this one.

Me, Fighter and Monk vs 12 Goblins. This fight is kinda the one that made me make this topic, 4 of each targetted Me, Fighter and Monk I took 6 damage from 4 arrows (1 Hit), Fighter took 21 (he has 40 total) monk 0. Not Bad really. Second turn I was targetted by 6 and took 21 dead on(4 hit), so I became 0. I was behind a table staying back if you will. This fight I managed to bless and heal the fighter so I used up 2 slots. Think we killed 4-5 before I died?

[Kipwar]

Is every encounter a hard+ encounter? More to the point, what is your healing threshold? I.e., at what point will you heal a companion? E.g. 'Help, I'm at 10hp/5hp/2hp!' I am not playing life, but I wait for the silence after they've gone down to pop a healing word. As life, you have a great aoe to get multiple people back on their feet, and it recharges on a short rest. If you try to keep people from going down, that may be a tough change to discuss, but probably worth it. You have more fun things to do, and out of combat healing. Also try to load up on healing potions/convince the fighter to pick up the healer feat for some assistance. Imo. Good luck!


Hi downlobot,

I'm usually feeling like I have to heal when they get below 15-17? Am I just better letting them hit 0 and just dealing with it after battle?

[JellyPooga]

Am I just better letting them hit 0 and just dealing with it after battle?

Pretty much, yeah. If you're really struggling with a fight, then Healing Word or Cure Wounds them to get them on their feet for another round or two, but if the worst comes to the worst, then they're only going to hit dirt (0hp) again. The chance of actually dying in battle for PC's is remarkably low.

[Kipwar]

Hi OP. :)

Well, it's hard to give an opinion with so few informations. A few wild guesses...
- Your party rushes in and/or does not try to coordinate attacks? Originally we rushed in, but we have tried to get better. Seems to be every decision we make ends up with us at a disadvantage haha
- You have nobody in your group that can tank or control? We do have a fighter with 19 AC who we try and make the tank, however he doesn't always get targetted etc. And again, we are all new so he could probably work better in that capacity/
- People don't use their hit dice with short rests? - We do use them, my main healing slot uses is in battle not out of combat
- Encounters are just too hard for your group and level? - This goes back to my general question really, I'm not sure if this is how its meant to be, and I need to resource plan and improve as an healer haha.
A bit of everything?

The most important thing is, if you have no fun you should speak about it. With your fellow players, to inform them you DON'T want to be limited as the healing bot. With your DM maybe, if you feel the encounters are really too harsh for some reason.

With that said, you did take the Life domain so for the first levels it's natural that you tend to focus on healing spells instead of other ones. ;)

The best solution would obviously to find what is the cause of such HP burn and resolve it.

Alternatively, you could once you hit level 4, instead of an ASI, take the Magic Initate Feat on Druid and get Shillelagh, Produce Flame and the most important Goodberries. That way, you can spend "one long rest" just making Goodberries and distribute them to your comrades (and you also get good alternatives to Sacred Flame for mundane offense).
This obviously won't resolve the "in-combat" healing problem. But, it means you can use exclusively Healing Words in combat for an emergency heal. Beyond that, it's up to each player to cover his ass and use Goodberries while not in combat.
The big problem of this is... You lose out an ASI. If your WIS is 16 it's probably not a good choice.
(You could maybe ask your DM if he could craft a quest for you that has learning Goodberries from a Druid as a reward).

An other way to go is for someone in your group, preferably not you but a martial, take the Healer feat which will greatly alleviate the "people dying" problem.
Why not you? Because it means that, worst case worst, your group have 2 people that can get others up at once, and you're each other's backup.
Why a martial? Because they tend to be more often in melee, have generally better survivability and more ASI (Rogue/Fighter) to spend on feats.
Also, since Healer is not stat dependant, everyone will be as good as you would.

Frankly, I'd suggest this last option if it appears there is no significant cause to the fact that combats are that hard. Especially if you have a Fighter in your group. With ASI at 4 and 6, this is a sacrifice he can make for the wellfare of the group.

Thanks for the advice, I am new to this, even though I always selected Clerics in BG, Icewind Dale etc. This topic I guess is aiming at "What am I doing wrong, and how can I improve and make me more than a heal slave".

[Finieous]

Me, Fighter and Monk vs 12 Goblins.

Unless the situation gives you a major advantage, that's a pretty rough encounter for your three-man party composition. No AoE, no control to speak of, outnumbered 4:1 by mobile, stealthy enemies that can use ranged and melee equally well. Double-plus ungood.

Either the DM needs to give you a break when people don't show up, or you need up your tactical game. No blundering into enemies and throwing down. Let your monk scout, fight dirty, pick your battlefield, use hit-and-run. Stop healing in combat, and good luck.

[Kipwar]

It sounds to me like your problem is that the encounters are too hard, and there is no variety in difficulty. You should not be taking so much damage on so regular a basis.

Yes, party composition makes a difference, but 5e is fairly tolerant in that regard. Yes, your spell selection matters, but the life domain gives you most of the important spells anyway (though Spirit Guardians at level 5 is a big one you'll want to prepare). And of course too many encounters is problematic, but it sounds like you're not lasting long enough for that to be the issue. Based on your description of your group, I'm guessing it's not your small unit tactics at fault - that's what leads me to suspect the DM.

Maybe they're not multiplying the monster XP values to take into account number of monsters?

Edit: wow, I just got quadruple-ninja'd! Yikes. :smalleek:

I think you hit the nail on the head. Maybe its my background, or probably playing BG1 and BG2 back in the day, but I would rather a dungeon be maybe 70% bog standard enemies, 30% challenging with tactics. So far it seems even lowly enemies are causing over complication! Unless I'm just not built for dnd haha...

[Moctzal]

It's not your job as a combat healer to keep everyone at full hp, it's your job to prevent them from dying, and remove really debilitating status effects (like paralysis).

If players are going down too often with a life cleric in the party, it's either an encounter problem (DM is too trigger happy), or a decision making problem (other players getting themselves into bad situations).

Your best in combat heal is your channel divinity. I rarely use level 1 spell slots on healing anymore (currently level 8 on my life cleric), it's pretty much limited to the occasional healing word to bounce someone back up. The real high value healing spells on a life cleric are the multiple party member heals (prayer of healing, mass healing word, mass cure wounds). If you can't leave a fighter at half hp at level 3, something's wrong (if your fighter doesn't have 28-31 hp at level three, they've made a bad fighter).

Remember, you're under no obligation to blow your spell slots on other party members. Both the DM and the other players should realize this.

[Ninja_Prawn]

To be fair, Baldur's Gate might be part of the problem. I grew up on that, and when I first played, I kept dying. Then I figured it out! You need to heal! The first party that got through the game in one piece was a paladin, two fighters, two clerics and a druid, with every single spell slot dedicated to healing (or Slow Poison).

5e is a different kettle of fish.

[Flashy]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Maybe its my background, or probably playing BG1 and BG2 back in the day, but I would rather a dungeon be maybe 70% bog standard enemies, 30% challenging with tactics. So far it seems even lowly enemies are causing over complication! Unless I'm just not built for dnd haha...

Yeah, a whole part of the design ethos for 5e was that low level enemies (kobolds, goblins, etc) should remain on some level challenging across the entire progression of the game. They all have crazy powers, and you can't assume there's any enemy that you're just going to be strictly superior to.

[Ackbladder]

Hi Ackbladder,


Me, Fighter and Monk vs 12 Goblins. This fight is kinda the one that made me make this topic, 4 of each targetted Me, Fighter and Monk I took 6 damage from 4 arrows (1 Hit), Fighter took 21 (he has 40 total) monk 0. Not Bad really. Second turn I was targetted by 6 and took 21 dead on(4 hit), so I became 0. I was behind a table staying back if you will. This fight I managed to bless and heal the fighter so I used up 2 slots. Think we killed 4-5 before I died?

First off, 3 L3 chars vs 12 goblins is a very deadly fight (1800 adjusted xp vs 1200 to be considered Deadly). Is your GM not readjusting his planned encounters when 2 of the 5 players don't show up? Or did your group blunder by taking on 12 goblins that should have been avoidable, or tackled in separate groups?

Now, it sounds like you were thrust into a somewhat brutal fight, but did you do everything you can to avoid damage? If you were being shot at by goblins with bows, did you drop prone? (giving them disadvantage on missile attacks?). Take cover behind a table or something (which should give you +5 AC)? If you go prone, you can pop back up using 1/2 your move to cast, and the drop back prone again. The only downsides are 1) it's dangerous if you're in danger of being attacked by a melee combatant and 2) you give up half your mobility, but you shouldn't be rushing around casting Cure Wounds anyway. Another option would be to take the Dodge action and toss out Healing Word as a bonus action if needed (it's the only type of heal that should be done in combat, IMO, and preferably only when someone goes to 0).

You should be AC18 or so, and a bunch of goblins attacking at Disadvantage should have trouble landing too many hits. Shield of Faith might be worth adding to your repertoire as well.+2 AC doesn't sound like much, but if goblins need to roll at 14+ on d20 to hit AC18, then casting it means they only hit on a 16+. So, you've effectively cut down your damage by 30% per round. It's even better as you get a better AC (until they top out at needing 20 to hit).

[McNinja]

Me, Fighter and Monk vs 2 Hobgoblins. Used up all my spell slots due to damage taken (I did use a guiding bolt however and probably a waste for a life cleric?), not anything specific I can remember from it really, but we actually did well in this one.

Me, Fighter and Monk vs 12 Goblins. This fight is kinda the one that made me make this topic, 4 of each targetted Me, Fighter and Monk I took 6 damage from 4 arrows (1 Hit), Fighter took 21 (he has 40 total) monk 0. Not Bad really. Second turn I was targetted by 6 and took 21 dead on(4 hit), so I became 0. I was behind a table staying back if you will. This fight I managed to bless and heal the fighter so I used up 2 slots. Think we killed 4-5 before I died?Your DM is doing everything wrong. Hobgoblins are AC 18 with 11hp. They deal 1d8 or 1d10+1 damage with their swords, plus 2d6 if they have a conscious ally within 5 feet of them. Guiding Bolt is a good spell, the advantage helps against their high AC. So does bane and bless.

And 12 goblins is way too many for 3 people to take head on. I mean damn.

[Kipwar]

First off, 3 L3 chars vs 12 goblins is a very deadly fight (1800 adjusted xp vs 1200 to be considered Deadly). Is your GM not readjusting his planned encounters when 2 of the 5 players don't show up? Or did your group blunder by taking on 12 goblins that should have been avoidable, or tackled in separate groups?

Now, it sounds like you were thrust into a somewhat brutal fight, but did you do everything you can to avoid damage? If you were being shot at by goblins with bows, did you drop prone? (giving them disadvantage on missile attacks?). Take cover behind a table or something (which should give you +5 AC)? If you go prone, you can pop back up using 1/2 your move to cast, and the drop back prone again. The only downsides are 1) it's dangerous if you're in danger of being attacked by a melee combatant and 2) you give up half your mobility, but you shouldn't be rushing around casting Cure Wounds anyway. Another option would be to take the Dodge action and toss out Healing Word as a bonus action if needed (it's the only type of heal that should be done in combat, IMO, and preferably only when someone goes to 0).

You should be AC18 or so, and a bunch of goblins attacking at Disadvantage should have trouble landing too many hits. Shield of Faith might be worth adding to your repertoire as well.+2 AC doesn't sound like much, but if goblins need to roll at 14+ on d20 to hit AC18, then casting it means they only hit on a 16+. So, you've effectively cut down your damage by 30% per round. It's even better as you get a better AC (until they top out at needing 20 to hit).

I should mention that the Monk and Fighter have been there a few extra to me, so they are both on Level 4 and I'm level 3, next sessions I should be 4. I'm not sure on that, but I can bring the question up? maybe the 12 was based around all 5 of us being there.

Well this encounter started with some RP, there was a leader of the goblins who commanded them and our Fighter tried to RP him into a one on one duel to take leadership (they were going to attack anyway, so yeah..). I did everything I feel I could apart from from Shield of Faith, I currently have 27 HP and 18 AC. I was not prone, and had my shield up. I was semi behind a table, by that I mean they were behind a table in the middle of the room, and I was at distance from them haha, so going from the height thing I might have been at advantage?. I kept out of the way purely to avoid melee action, since 12 would probably wreck me. Yes, I agree on the dodge point, I should have probably healed the fighter and performed dodge instead of Bless. But again, to my original post I wasn't expecting being hit for 21!

My standard AC is 18, and I have on occasion done shield of faith (usually on the fighter to take control also).

[Kipwar]

I should make a point of saying, the DM is also new, and is not out to try and kill us, and I have generally enjoyed everything else but combat. He is more than willing to listen to any problems or questions we have with spells, items etc and adjust accordingly, god knows I have asked loads about certain spells!.

[McNinja]

I should mention that the Monk and Fighter have been there a few extra to me, so they are both on Level 4 and I'm level 3, next sessions I should be 4. I'm not sure on that, but I can bring the question up? maybe the 12 was based around all 5 of us being there.

Well this encounter started with some RP, there was a leader of the goblins who commanded them and our Fighter tried to RP him into a one on one duel to take leadership (they were going to attack anyway, so yeah..). I did everything I feel I could apart from from Shield of Faith, I currently have 27 HP and 18 AC. I was not prone, and had my shield up. I was semi behind a table, by that I mean they were behind a table in the middle of the room, and I was at distance from them haha, so going from the height thing I might have been at advantage?. I kept out of the way purely to avoid melee action, since 12 would probably wreck me. Yes, I agree on the dodge point, I should have probably healed the fighter and performed dodge instead of Bless. But again, to my original post I wasn't expecting being hit for 21!

My standard AC is 18, and I have on occasion done shield of faith (usually on the fighter to take control also).Keep in mind that spiritual weapon should always be up and attacking. It doesn't require concentration and deals 1d8+WIS force damage.

However, against 12 goblins, there wasn't much you all could do regardless. If I were you I would tell the DM to tone combats down slightly when the whole group is not there. There is a difference between a good challenge and getting your face stomped in by a horde of goblins.

[JellyPooga]

And 12 goblins is way too many for 3 people to take head on. I mean damn.

3PC's vs. 12 Goblins is tough, for sure. By the book it's really gnarly. It's not that unwinnable though. Not for three Lvl.3 PC's (and if two of them were level 4, it's even less challenging).

What was it? A Monk, a Fighter and a Cleric?

The Monk should be able to take one out without any trouble or resource expenditure. Two if he's lucky or uses Flurry of Blows.

The Fighter should almost certainly kill one. If that can be the leader, all the better.

Cleric has the option of cracking one over the skull (potential lethality) or casting something useful, like Bless or Spiritual Weapon.

That's anything up to 4 dead Goblins on round 1. Let's say 3 fatalities. That leaves 9 Gobbos; 3 apiece. With +4 to hit, only one of those Gobbos should hit each character (assuming AC:18 on Cleric and Fighter and something >14 for the Monk). Flesh wounds at best.

Round two, the kill count goes up. If Cleric cast Spiritual Weapon on round 1, he's now accounting for 2 gobbos a turn; damage two or kill one, at least. Monk can tackle another couple. Fighter should take down another one, maybe two if he's got the right tools. That's possibly another 6 Goblins down.

If the PC's are lucky, they could have this fight licked in 3 rounds, with only spending a single lvl.2 Cleric spell slot, a Ki point or two and a couple of Maneuver dice, with fairly minimal damage taken back.

On average dice, there should really be no Goblins standing after round 5 or 6.

With bad dice (for the PC's), it could be a TPK.

The other thing to note is that Goblins aren't emotionless automota. Nor are they stupid. If a bunch of crazed murderhobos start mowing through their mates like a scythe through wheat...they shouldn't be hanging around, waiting to be next on the chopping block!

[CantigThimble]

Prayer of healing is pretty much the only spell that can allow you to keep the party at decent health without burning spell slots like crazy. My goal while playing cleric is to end the fight as quickly as possible to reduce incoming damage and then worry about healing afterwards. I'll use healing word in combat sometimes to get someone important back up but otherwise spam sacred flame all day. (and get in melee to use my 20 AC and enable sneak attack)

[Kipwar]

Keep in mind that spiritual weapon should always be up and attacking. It doesn't require concentration and deals 1d8+WIS force damage.

However, against 12 goblins, there wasn't much you all could do regardless. If I were you I would tell the DM to tone combats down slightly when the whole group is not there. There is a difference between a good challenge and getting your face stomped in by a horde of goblins.

Yep, I do try and summon it as much as I can at the moment. This goblin fight however, due to dying (well, 0 HP) on goblin turn 2 (I had only done turn 1) I didn't have chance I think.

I will bring it up, I do want to be fair with the DM though as he is new as well, so I don't want to seem like I'm being critical.

[Kipwar]

3PC's vs. 12 Goblins is tough, for sure. By the book it's really gnarly. It's not that unwinnable though. Not for three Lvl.3 PC's (and if two of them were level 4, it's even less challenging).

What was it? A Monk, a Fighter and a Cleric?

The Monk should be able to take one out without any trouble or resource expenditure. Two if he's lucky or uses Flurry of Blows.

The Fighter should almost certainly kill one. If that can be the leader, all the better.

Cleric has the option of cracking one over the skull (potential lethality) or casting something useful, like Bless or Spiritual Weapon.

That's anything up to 4 dead Goblins on round 1. Let's say 3 fatalities. That leaves 9 Gobbos; 3 apiece. With +4 to hit, only one of those Gobbos should hit each character (assuming AC:18 on Cleric and Fighter and something >14 for the Monk). Flesh wounds at best.

Round two, the kill count goes up. If Cleric cast Spiritual Weapon on round 1, he's now accounting for 2 gobbos a turn; damage two or kill one, at least. Monk can tackle another couple. Fighter should take down another one, maybe two if he's got the right tools. That's possibly another 6 Goblins down.

If the PC's are lucky, they could have this fight licked in 3 rounds, with only spending a single lvl.2 Cleric spell slot, a Ki point or two and a couple of Maneuver dice, with fairly minimal damage taken back.

On average dice, there should really be no Goblins standing after round 5 or 6.

With bad dice (for the PC's), it could be a TPK.

The other thing to note is that Goblins aren't emotionless automota. Nor are they stupid. If a bunch of crazed murderhobos start mowing through their mates like a scythe through wheat...they shouldn't be hanging around, waiting to be next on the chopping block!

In Turn 1 we did manage to clear out 3 in turn 1, the session ended not too long after I was taken down, and the fighter had just flipped the table onto them (causing prone). So it looks like we will finish the battle. However, it goes back to the original post that I am healing anyone who is on 15-17 HP or below. Which is pretty much everyturn

[JellyPooga]

However, it goes back to the original post that I am healing anyone who is on 15-17 HP or below. Which is pretty much everyturn

It's all about gauging your foe. Does it look like the Fighter is going to go down next turn? If not, then absolutely do not waste your time healing. If the foes you're up against are only doing 1d6+3 damage on a hit and only hit if they roll 14+ on their d20, then you're fairly safe letting him drop below 10hp, even as far as down to 5 or 6hp...even if he's up against multiple foes. You're much better off spending your time killing the enemy (and reducing their offensive capability) than prolonging the status quo by healing.

It might bite you in the butt if things (i.e. the dice) go really sour for you, but that's the way the dice swing. You just play the odds.

[tieren]

Yep, I do try and summon it as much as I can at the moment. This goblin fight however, due to dying (well, 0 HP) on goblin turn 2 (I had only done turn 1) I didn't have chance I think.

I will bring it up, I do want to be fair with the DM though as he is new as well, so I don't want to seem like I'm being critical.

One other thing that no one else seems to have mentioned, not all fights are meant to be winnable. Sometimes the tactic your group may not be considering is running away, particularly when outnumbered 4 to 1.

Perhaps you all could have left the room, gotten yourself out of line of sight and set an ambush to let the martials beat on pursuing goblins as they came through a door or choke point.

[Kipwar]

One other thing that no one else seems to have mentioned, not all fights are meant to be winnable. Sometimes the tactic your group may not be considering is running away, particularly when outnumbered 4 to 1.

Perhaps you all could have left the room, gotten yourself out of line of sight and set an ambush to let the martials beat on pursuing goblins as they came through a door or choke point.

This is something we do need to consider more to be fair. With low intelligence, I imagine the goblins most likely would not consider going the other way? (the dungeon had 2 entrances to the big room).

[Kipwar]

It's all about gauging your foe. Does it look like the Fighter is going to go down next turn? If not, then absolutely do not waste your time healing. If the foes you're up against are only doing 1d6+3 damage on a hit and only hit if they roll 14+ on their d20, then you're fairly safe letting him drop below 10hp, even as far as down to 5 or 6hp...even if he's up against multiple foes. You're much better off spending your time killing the enemy (and reducing their offensive capability) than prolonging the status quo by healing.

It might bite you in the butt if things (i.e. the dice) go really sour for you, but that's the way the dice swing. You just play the odds.

I know I mentioned it earlier, but I think whats boring me is that I feel like I'm having to gauge each and every foe. Maybe my youth baptism of videogame dungeon crawlers like BG1 etc have given me the illusion that I shouldn't have to really overthink goblins and hobgoblins.

I'm not that conservative that I don't like that, but I cannot think of one fight that hasn't resulted in overthinking to stay alive. Also, I think we desperately lack AOE as a party.

[JellyPooga]

whats boring me is that I feel like I'm having to gauge each and every foe.

It's not so much a case of having to second guess the stats of everything you come up against. Generalisations are good enough.

Goblins, Hobgoblins, Orcs, Kobolds...don't sweat the small fry. Let those HP do their job of being a buffer; don't start getting worried until someone starts bottoming out in single figures.

Ogres, Giants, Dragons...these are big-scaries that can do double-figure damage. Maybe it's worth keeping that health bar a bit higher.

Mind Flayers, Beholders, Wizards...These guys don't generally deal in HP damage, so healing's not an issue.


Also, I think we desperately lack AOE as a party.

Whilst AoE isn't essential, it can come in handy when dealing with a dozen Goblins, certainly!

[Sir cryosin]

Here is something a lot of players for get its a dynamic environment. Flip that table over and use it for 3/4 cover that adds 5 to your AC and just spam sacred. Have the monk or fighter grapple shove trip. It get boring if every round is I hit him with my weapon.

[swrider]

Don't forget you can ready an action (spell). If you think your fighter might go down you can ready a healing spell to use stating "that when the fighter or another ally drops prone I will cast x-spell" When this trigger occurs you can then use a reaction to heal them.

I believe you can even ready this on the first round and it will last the entire counter. If you don't use the reaction you loose the spell slot but it can eliminate some of the guess work about who might go down. It also keeps both your action and any bonus actions available for your turn as you only have to use a reaction to finish the casting.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I believe you can even ready this on the first round and it will last the entire counter. If you don't use the reaction you loose the spell slot but it can eliminate some of the guess work about who might go down. It also keeps both your action and any bonus actions available for your turn as you only have to use a reaction to finish the casting.

Yeah, no, that doesn't work. When setting up a conditional reaction for later, you use your action on your turn, and then later your reaction when the condition is met. If the condition is not met by your next turn, you'll need to spend your action again setting the condition. Your character is literally spending it efforts during the 6 second round actively watching events unfold, waiting for a specific moment.

Some DMs might even rule that you're using concentration maintaining the spell in "ready to fire" mode, and if you get hit you may lose the spell and spell slot.

[Mellack]

Readying a spell specifically states that you are now concentration on the readied spell, so both your concentration can be broken, and you can't hold another concentration spell such as that Bless you might have cast. Ready is generally a poor choice except for some specific circumstances.

[swrider]

Yeah, no, that doesn't work. When setting up a conditional reaction for later, you use your action on your turn, and then later your reaction when the condition is met. If the condition is not met by your next turn, you'll need to spend your action again setting the condition. Your character is literally spending it efforts during the 6 second round actively watching events unfold, waiting for a specific moment.

Some DMs might even rule that you're using concentration maintaining the spell in "ready to fire" mode, and if you get hit you may lose the spell and spell slot.

Wow, I'll have to go re-read that as I am the DM for my games usually. Luckily this has not come up yet in play. Thanks for the clarification.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Readying a spell specifically states that you are now concentration on the readied spell, so both your concentration can be broken, and you can't hold another concentration spell such as that Bless you might have cast. Ready is generally a poor choice except for some specific circumstances.

I thought so, but I couldn't remember if that was RAW or just the consensus that came out of the very long Spells and Reactions thread.

[BiPolar]

3 level 3 PCs against 12 Goblins is a deadly encounter according to this (http://dhmholley.co.uk/encounter-calculator-5th/).

I've been using that tool, and it seems pretty darn accurate.

[McNinja]

3 level 3 PCs against 12 Goblins is a deadly encounter according to this (http://dhmholley.co.uk/encounter-calculator-5th/).

I've been using that tool, and it seems pretty darn accurate.
That's super helpful, I had no idea that existed!

[gfishfunk]

Here is something a lot of players for get its a dynamic environment. Flip that table over and use it for 3/4 cover that adds 5 to your AC and just spam sacred. Have the monk or fighter grapple shove trip. It get boring if every round is I hit him with my weapon.

Yes. Hell, you can even have the Barbarian do nothing but dodge in the middle of enemies so he looks like a tempting target and keeping all the attention on him. He can still use a reaction to opportunity attack. If he can get right nest to all the ranged goblins, they will be firing with disadvantage so he'll pick up their attention either way.

[MeeposFire]

To be fair, Baldur's Gate might be part of the problem. I grew up on that, and when I first played, I kept dying. Then I figured it out! You need to heal! The first party that got through the game in one piece was a paladin, two fighters, two clerics and a druid, with every single spell slot dedicated to healing (or Slow Poison).

5e is a different kettle of fish.

Wow your experience is very different from mine (and it ties into this thread I swear). In BG I have found that healing is an emergency tactic (usually best with potions since casting can be interrupted in the game). BG1 the best tactic to keeping your party alive is superior tactics and the easiest tactic to pull off is ranged heavy groups. If you were to try the game again get a bunch of characters that can use bows as your main attack strategy. Use stealth to find enemies and ambush them using composite long bows (bonus accuracy, damage, and attacks per round). Try to get enemies to chase you in smaller groups and pick them off with archers. It makes the game much easier.

This applies into this case as well. Taking on a group of 10 goblins at once is a bad idea at that level and number of allies. It would probably be better to retreat and try to find a way to gain some advantages over them (splitting them into smaller groups, ambushes, keep them at range and performing hit and run tactics etc).

If possible in BG and in 5e you want to avoid having to use actions in combat to heal if you can.

[Icewraith]

When to:

Healing Word
A high-damage party member has just been dropped and they go shortly after you in the initiative order. Once revived, they should be able to (1) grab their weapon with their free object interaction for the round, (2) stand up, using half their move, (3) take the attack action or cast a spell to do as much damage as possible. What's really nice is this just uses your Bonus action, so you can dish out some pain or even Help your ally, using your action and giving them advantage to attacks. You may also be able to give attackers disadvantage, but I'm AFB so this may not be accurate. You certainly can't do both.

Cure Wounds
The monsters are dealing damage in predictable chunks, and you're fairly certain one use of your action and the healing from the spell will prevent your ally from being dropped this round, when they would be otherwise. You should also be fairly certain that a round of solid damage will be enough to turn the tide of battle, and that your ally can deal out significantly more damage with their actions than you can with yours. This is more important if there are a bunch of monsters between you and your allies in the initiative order. If you try to Healing Word them up after they drop in this case, the monsters will just beat them down before they do anything. If that happens, you've wasted a spell slot and a bonus action that could have been spent on damage via Spiritual Weapon. The real question is- about how much damage are things doing on a hit, about how many hits wiill your buddies take in a round, how many hits can they take before they drop, and how much longer is the combat going to last?

An alternative tactic is, if you have a good AC and a good amount of HP left, make it clear that you are in fact the party healer and a magic-user to boot. Hopefully the monsters will focus more attacks on you and fewer on your buddies. You can also take the Dodge action, use your bonus action to healing word a fallen party member, and then mortally insult your foes (if you share a language). If you don't have a reliable means of communication, obscene gestures may also work.

Bless:
If it looks like you're in for a long, rough fight- especially against high AC targets- and you've got attacking types like Fighters, Paladins, Rogues, etc in your party, this is a great use of your 1st level spell slot and your concentration. If the fight looks easy, save it for later.

Spiritual Weapon:
This is another one you pull out for the big, dangerous fights. I feel you should Bless first and then Spiritual Weapon- if the fight turns out to be a cakewalk you can always use bless again later in your second level slot.

Sacred Flame or Melee/Ranged Attack:
You don't need to save the party this turn, may as well contribute some damage. If your DM has hot dice tonight you're probably better off with something that uses an attack roll. Sacred flame may be a better choice once you're rolling more than one damage die for it. Every adventurer should have at least two daggers on them, and you can use either STR or DEX for them since they're light throwing weapons.

Guiding Bolt/Inflict Wounds:
Something big and nasty needs to be taken down ASAP, and conserving your spell slots won't do anyone good if you're all already dead.

[RulesJD]

I know I mentioned it earlier, but I think whats boring me is that I feel like I'm having to gauge each and every foe. Maybe my youth baptism of videogame dungeon crawlers like BG1 etc have given me the illusion that I shouldn't have to really overthink goblins and hobgoblins.

I'm not that conservative that I don't like that, but I cannot think of one fight that hasn't resulted in overthinking to stay alive. Also, I think we desperately lack AOE as a party.

Be patient young Cleric. For at level 5 you gain access to Spirit Guardians, the best AoE spell in the game. At that point you'll be wading through AoE encounters with ease, and still having the spell ready to go for the next encounter (10 minute duration)

[Moctzal]

Be patient young Cleric. For at level 5 you gain access to Spirit Guardians, the best AoE spell in the game. At that point you'll be wading through AoE encounters with ease, and still having the spell ready to go for the next encounter (10 minute duration)

I agree. Spirit Guardians looks merely solid on paper, but it's backbreaking for some encounters. My DM purposefully spaces out encounters a bit so I can't carry it to the next encounter. He's a cleric player in another game. He knows how it goes. Spirit Guardians also makes clerics good at peeling attention off other front liners. I usually position myself between the front and the back of the party in the first round of a fight, then get a feel for what everyone else is doing (enemy and party) then decide between Bless/Spirit Guardians.

Life Clerics have tools that are more valuable than healing, they're just a bit situational. The best thing about Life Cleric, is that you have room in your prepared spell list to carry many of those situational, but powerful, spells.

[lebefrei]

First thing is that you have to change your way of thinking about health in 5e. You have repeatedly referred to 0 HP as having died. That is not dead, nor intended to replicate it. You're just knocked out of the fight. That isn't something to specifically avoid, but instead your cue for healing.

Beyond that, you are definitely playing like an MMO, and need to stop thinking in those terms. I assume the other players are treating you as a healbot. You obviously think of yourself as one, too, and that is probably why you took life cleric. Perhaps consider asking your DM to allow you to change domains if you don't think you have enough options. Clerics, no matter their domain, though, are not just around for healing in this edition. They have many tricks to use, and your failure to take advantage of that is one of the reasons that your party is failing.

Finally, as this is not a video game, every fight allows for creative approaches. If you actually don't like that, as it seems in one of your posts, this edition might not be for you. 4e had a much more video game feel to it, your group might want to try that (not that you can't be creative there, though... But most tools were specifically for in combat play). If you are open to more creative play, though, changing your tactics would have ended in a much better result against those goblins. Just the fact that you took so much damage in the first round likely means they had the jump on you... You need to fix that first, and then work together with your party to find and correct other tactical errors that you make.

5e isn't supposed to have throw away combat. There are no "trash mobs" or anything like that. Bounded accuracy is intended to make all enemies, even those goblins, continue to be at least somewhat threatening through your entire adventuring career. It makes a much more realistic, whole world instead of the partialed out, level based areas feel of a video game.

[Zalabim]

I see you're also spending extra spell slots by mistake. For example, when you cast Healing Word and Bless in round 1 against the goblins, you run into the limitation on casting spells as a Bonus Action. If you cast Healing Word, or Spiritual Weapon, or any spell that takes a bonus action, the only other spell you can cast is a cantrip that takes 1 action to cast. You can't add in a healing word every round, so that should curb some slot expenditure too.

[Kipwar]

Hi all,

Thanks for all comments/advice etc, helps a lot. Should have probably thought about this earlier.

Few comments...

3 level 3 PCs against 12 Goblins is a deadly encounter according to this.

I've been using that tool, and it seems pretty darn accurate.

Really useful link, might send this to the DM for future fights. Thanks

Here is something a lot of players for get its a dynamic environment. Flip that table over and use it for 3/4 cover that adds 5 to your AC and just spam sacred. Have the monk or fighter grapple shove trip. It get boring if every round is I hit him with my weapon.

I guess my problem was overthinking, but the reason I left myself at 21 HP and that goblins are small in height, I was thinking they couldn't shoot over a table that is probably the same height as them!. Again, setting dodge should be a good idea for me going forward.

This applies into this case as well. Taking on a group of 10 goblins at once is a bad idea at that level and number of allies. It would probably be better to retreat and try to find a way to gain some advantages over them (splitting them into smaller groups, ambushes, keep them at range and performing hit and run tactics etc).

If possible in BG and in 5e you want to avoid having to use actions in combat to heal if you can.

Regarding your tactics comment, I don't mind tactics at all, I just feel entering every room/enemy is going this way at the moment. I don't think the other players feel the same as me, as I am usually just healing them so they get to attack or do something each turn.

Be patient young Cleric. For at level 5 you gain access to Spirit Guardians, the best AoE spell in the game. At that point you'll be wading through AoE encounters with ease, and still having the spell ready to go for the next encounter (10 minute duration)

Well this is good news that it can come from me as a caster.

[Kipwar]

First thing is that you have to change your way of thinking about health in 5e. You have repeatedly referred to 0 HP as having died. That is not dead, nor intended to replicate it. You're just knocked out of the fight. That isn't something to specifically avoid, but instead your cue for healing.

Beyond that, you are definitely playing like an MMO, and need to stop thinking in those terms. I assume the other players are treating you as a healbot. You obviously think of yourself as one, too, and that is probably why you took life cleric. Perhaps consider asking your DM to allow you to change domains if you don't think you have enough options. Clerics, no matter their domain, though, are not just around for healing in this edition. They have many tricks to use, and your failure to take advantage of that is one of the reasons that your party is failing.

Finally, as this is not a video game, every fight allows for creative approaches. If you actually don't like that, as it seems in one of your posts, this edition might not be for you. 4e had a much more video game feel to it, your group might want to try that (not that you can't be creative there, though... But most tools were specifically for in combat play). If you are open to more creative play, though, changing your tactics would have ended in a much better result against those goblins. Just the fact that you took so much damage in the first round likely means they had the jump on you... You need to fix that first, and then work together with your party to find and correct other tactical errors that you make.

5e isn't supposed to have throw away combat. There are no "trash mobs" or anything like that. Bounded accuracy is intended to make all enemies, even those goblins, continue to be at least somewhat threatening through your entire adventuring career. It makes a much more realistic, whole world instead of the partialed out, level based areas feel of a video game.

Hi Lebefrei, cheers for the comments!

Ok let me explain about the dead comment, currently how we play if someone hits 0 I have to cast Spare Dying AND then I can heal them after which they are prone and reduced stats, so its a good 2 rounds at least before they can be even slightly useful. This is why I class it as dying, as it very costly to how we play. Again, we are all new, is this usually how hitting 0 is treated? should someone be prone and reduced stats after being healed from 0?

I don't think I'm playing like an MMO if I'm honest, I've played WoW religiously raiding since Alpha and I consider some of them raid fights way more challenging than what I've witnessed since playing dnd 5e (and dull with tons of wipes..). The problem I am having is I'm becoming a healbot due to encounters causing a ton of damage. I agree on the cleric comment being more than a healer, this Life Cleric was made with a guide possibly from this forum instead of being a support/debuff with the occasional heal, hes the opposite! I don't really want to change domain, as the same problems will exist either way.

I agree every fight should be creative in some aspect, but there is a difference between a creative encounter and encounters that are purely built to drain my heal spells. For example, we could be fighting 3 archers on a cliff that we have to manoeuvre to reach, that is creative, usually the problem is quantity of enemies and very low exp gain or a monster getting raged seeing his ally die and throwing something at us causing 20+ damage. We have fought about 3 lets say ,end dungeon encounters, and If I'm honest, they have been easier/if not the same difficulty as everything else.

They did not have the jump, only initiative roll let them go first (the Fighter did some strength check RP to try and take dominance over the leader one beforehand).

I would equally get bored with throw away combat if I'm honest lebefrei. Again the main point of this was the spell slot drain/overhealing of the other players. I have learnt for next session to avoid healing more on players.


I see you're also spending extra spell slots by mistake. For example, when you cast Healing Word and Bless in round 1 against the goblins, you run into the limitation on casting spells as a Bonus Action. If you cast Healing Word, or Spiritual Weapon, or any spell that takes a bonus action, the only other spell you can cast is a cantrip that takes 1 action to cast. You can't add in a healing word every round, so that should curb some slot expenditure too.

The problem I'm usually having Zalabim is, the fighter taking 21 damage is something I can't ignore in our games, since he is pretty much the tank. I agree, I would always avoid using it that early, but I felt I had no option. For all us being new players, I tend to feel the DM probably needs to tone the goblin encounter down abit, as well as us improving tactically. I know I can do things differently after this thread, so I feel abit more confident for the next session.

[Kipwar]

All,

Thanks for all comments, I will be incorporating some of this into the next session, see if I can control things better. I have a few questions however...


1 - Mentioned this in a reply to someone, but if someone hits 0 HP in battle and I heal him, do I need to stabilize him prior? (Spare the Dying, medicine etc) also, when said person gains HP is it common for him to be at a disadvantage, for example being prone/reduced movement stats etc.

2 - Is there a feat, or anything I can do to help with regaining spell slots without rest?

Thanks.

[Zalabim]

I mean there's literally a rule that says you can't do that. The rule on casting a spell as a bonus action makes it generally difficult to spend more than one spell slot per turn.

The rules on 0 HP by default are that the character falls prone and drops what they're holding, as they're unconscious. Any penalties beyond that are optional rules. Similarly, requiring more effort than restoring at least 1 HP to rouse them is a houserule. So a lot of posters won't expect 0 HP to be that harsh.

[Kipwar]

I mean there's literally a rule that says you can't do that. The rule on casting a spell as a bonus action makes it generally difficult to spend more than one spell slot per turn.

The rules on 0 HP by default are that the character falls prone and drops what they're holding, as they're unconscious. Any penalties beyond that are optional rules. Similarly, requiring more effort than restoring at least 1 HP to rouse them is a houserule. So a lot of posters won't expect 0 HP to be that harsh.

Sorry, I'm being a bit thick here. But when you say houserule, is that based on DM rule?

[Waar]

Sorry, I'm being a bit thick here. But when you say houserule, is that based on DM rule?

Yes, and I can see how giving greater penalties for dropping to 0 hp would be a part of the problem you are experiencing.

In my games you would only need to heal the 0 hp character to bring it back into the fight, having dropped prone (since it was unconsious) but with no other penalties.

[PoeticDwarf]

Goblins are CR 1/4 and you are level 3. I think the DM is new because 12 times 1/4 is 3, but it doesn't work that way. Say to your DM that as he does it now encoubters become too OP

[downlobot]

What do you mean by reduced stats when you drop to 0? That could be a big change if it's not just 'melee attacks against prone targets have advantage.'

Normally, all you need to do to bring someone at 0 back into the fight is heal 1hp - there are no negative hp, no need to stabilize first, and no additional penalties to being almost dead there for a second. So if you get additional, and even mildly persistent, penalties for dropping to 0 hp or for failing 1 or 2 death saving throws (e.g. disadvantage on everything you do until you do x to get better), then the advice in this thread may not work for you. That would be a big change.

[Petrocorus]

Sorry, I'm being a bit thick here.
But when you say houserule, is that based on DM rule?

Yes, when someone is at 0 HP, even after two failed death saves, you only need to give him 1 HP to save him and get him ready to go. This cancel all death saving throws. He's still prone though.

You normally use Spare the Dying or a healing kit when you have no way to give him this 1 HP.

Having to stabilise someone before healing him is a houserule made (or misinterpreted) by your DM. And that certainly make healing in combat more necessary.

In this edition, like in previous ones, preventing damage is much more efficient than healing them. You usually don't heal in combat unless there is an emergency, like 0 HP and 2 failed death saves.

And to go back to the examples you gave, if 12 goblins are a deadly encounter, 2 hobgoblins are an easy one, you should not had to spend so many spells on them. How did this encounter went? Did they surprised you?

I also notice you have some difficulty to properly answer with quotes. Use the "Reply with quote" button then copy-paste [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] inside the quote where you want to answer and write your answer between the two tags.
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[Dalebert]

Hi Zalabim,

Yeah I have been using my divinity when needed. I think my problem is topping up bars, but this is caused by high damage I feel. for example, I cannot leave the fighter on 15hp due to everything seemingly hitting hard. Again, this might be just me playing Cleric bad!

I think the most common mistake when playing a cleric is thinking you're a healbot. You're trying to fill a hole with a hand shovel that the enemies are digging with a giant two-handed shovel. You should be actually helping your party to take less damage in the first place by...

1) Buffing
2) Helping kill things so they stop dishing damage
3) Crowd control when possible

Basic rule:

Never never never never never never never never never never
cast a heal spell on someone who's above zero. Then cast Healing Word because it's a bonus action with range and you can still hit something or Sacred Flame it or whatever. You're not just wasting your precious spell slots healing people in the middle of combat when they should be healing up after with their short rests. You're also wasting your precious actions which could be used to help fight.

Also encourage the wizard to cast Unseen Servant as a ritual so it can feed people at zero a healing potion.

Also being a healbot isn't just suboptimal. It's also boring.

[JakOfAllTirades]

One other thing that no one else seems to have mentioned, not all fights are meant to be winnable. Sometimes the tactic your group may not be considering is running away, particularly when outnumbered 4 to 1.

Perhaps you all could have left the room, gotten yourself out of line of sight and set an ambush to let the martials beat on pursuing goblins as they came through a door or choke point.

I have to second this. Be careful about gauging the difficulty of a fight before you commit to it, if at all possible. I know running away too often isn't nearly as entertaining, but it's not as much fun for the DM either. So after he's seen it happen often enough he might get the point. (Or he might just turn every encounter into an ambush so you can't run away. I have no idea.)

[Mellack]

If I understand your description of how your table is playing dropping to 0, then that is a major part of your problem. Dropping to 0 is exceedingly easy to repair. Any healing will do so and their only problem is that they are now prone, and probably not holding their weapon. Picking up the weapon only takes a free object interaction, and half a move to stand up. They should be able to fight back at full effectiveness, with the rare exception that they can't reach an opponent. The game is not designed for you to have to constantly keep everybody up, and it is not surprising that you are struggling if your table has placed rules that force you to. Discuss this with your DM to have him remove any extra penalties. Or correct me if I misread how you play it.

[Flashy]

The game is not designed for you to have to constantly keep everybody up, and it is not surprising that you are struggling if your table has placed rules that force you to. Discuss this with your DM to have him remove any extra penalties. Or correct me if I misread how you play it.

Yeah, in a world where you have actual penalties for dropping to 0 HP I'd probably double the dice on every low level healing spell as a start.

[lebefrei]

It's no wonder you're having so much trouble with combat with the rules your DM has put in place. It seems the issue largely falls on bad DMing in this case. He has made a return from 0hp more difficult (he needs to reread the DMG) and is not scaling back fights for party size. Those two things can't combine while maintaining any sort of balance.

The current rules on HP and dying are well done... You really don't see anyone complaining about them, and I am not sure what his goal is in houseruling the need to case Spare the Dying before a heal, but it is just unnecessary and unfun.

[greenstone]

I feel. for example, I cannot leave the fighter on 15hp

Yeah, sure you can.

If they want healing then they can use healing wind or quaff a potion. Or they can wear a shield or put on heavier armour and not get hit in the first place. Or maybe spend some superiority dice or cast shield. Or something.

Maybe the party can learn to focus fire and take down targets quicker. More foes dead in round 1 means less foes hitting you in round 2. As a cleric, if you can kill a foe with your weapon, that's probably the best use of your Action.

Save the healing spells for when characters are down to their last death saving throw.

[downlobot]

It's no wonder you're having so much trouble with combat with the rules your DM has put in place. It seems the issue largely falls on bad DMing in this case. He has made a return from 0hp more difficult (he needs to reread the DMG) and is not scaling back fights for party size. Those two things can't combine while maintaining any sort of balance.

The current rules on HP and dying are well done... You really don't see anyone complaining about them, and I am not sure what his goal is in houseruling the need to case Spare the Dying before a heal, but it is just unnecessary and unfun.

I think the idea of penalties for dropping to 0/making it difficult to bounce back from is a fun idea. I wouldn't DO it, because there's so much other stuff you'd need to change to make it work well. But the idea is not a bad one outright.

[Mellack]

I think the idea of penalties for dropping to 0/making it difficult to bounce back from is a fun idea. I wouldn't DO it, because there's so much other stuff you'd need to change to make it work well. But the idea is not a bad one outright.

I agree, it can be fine for those looking for a more dangerous, gritty playstyle. But it effects a lot of the game, and they have already found out that it makes the game unfun for the (now required) healer. It is probably not something that should be attempted by an inexperienced DM with a new group of players.