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Human Paragon 3
2007-06-17, 08:11 PM
Thinking about games that involve all five senses- particularly a mystery style game where gathering evidence and looking for clues is at the forefront- what skill is Smell? What about touch?

Example, A DM might describe a scene like this: There are clothes strewn upon the bed as if somebody left in a hurry. Though nothing seems damaged and there's no outward sign of a struggle. The room smells stale and un-lived in.

Now the PCs will investigate. They could roll a spot check to see that the window is closed and perhaps conclude that whoever was here didn't spend much time in the room since it smells stale and he or she could have opened the window. They could likewise spot a whisp of smoke coming from a quenched candlestick. Maybe the can roll a listen check to gauge if anybody is hiding in the room or in a nearby room.

But the DM also knows that the clothes smell strongly of Cedar, because they were once kept in a cedar chest. What would the PCs roll to notice this? A spot check? A search check? A Wisdom check modified by knowledge: nature or profession: carpentry? Or would it be more of an intelligence thing to be able to identify a specific scent?

What if the there was no smoke whisping from the candle, but you could still faintly smell the odor of burning beeswax?

What about the sense of touch? What would you roll to notice that one area of the room is slightly colder than the rest (because of the draft from a trap door under the rug) or to see that there's still a warm spot on the bed?

What about the feeling you get from a lingering evil magic that chills the entire house, a sensation that the wizard PC might have felt once before in the workshop of his half-insane Master back when he was an apprentice?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Orzel
2007-06-17, 08:28 PM
D&D doesn't do smell and touch well sense it is based on humans. D&D doesn't roll for the obvious. D&D rolls to see if you "missed something" or "noticed something" most people would overlook, Human sense of smell is pretty weak and the sense of touch is limited in use. Wisdom checks for noticing a smell/taste/texture and Intellegence checks for identifying a strong smell/taste/texture.

But i'd personally rarely roll anything unless a PC has an Extraordinary ability, spell, or feat that causes heightened or more aware senses.

No one is going to know a room smells like goblins unless the smell of goblins is well known, someone has scent, or someone has favored enemy.

Valdyr
2007-06-17, 08:29 PM
Spot as written is visual only, and I think the spirit of the rule is the skill you use to notice ambushes before they happen, that sort of thing. I think the smoke coming from the blown-out candle might fall under this category.

Search you could use to do more kinds of Detection.

Also, you could extend Gather Information to be a catch-all detective skill. The feat Investigator give you plusses on Search and Gather Information, so maybe that would be what you're looking for. Also, Profession (Lenny Briscoe) might work.

One of the things you have to be careful about is the difference between empirical and interpreted information. You can tell them that the clothes smell of cedar, but the cedar chest bit of information is a conclusion that they need to draw on their own.

Diggorian
2007-06-17, 08:38 PM
I judge that Int or Int skills do recognition and Wis or Wis skills do detection.

Int DCs based on very common being low DC, very uncommon high DC. Wis DC based on the strength of the scent, which ties into how long ago a substance was there.

Touch I pretty much give away without roll cause it's so evident. "This rag is very silken, must have a high thread-count." Int or knowledge check reveals it could have been a noble's handkerchief, related Profession skills can give you more.

"This rag is actually an old handkerchief of Ekbirian silk with embroidery patterns done in the Kettish fashion of three years back. It was the Ket merchant lord Amir Az'holani !!! ... or one of his entourage given the passe design." Profession: tailor FTW.

Matthew
2007-06-17, 10:03 PM
Yeah, I have always found this a bit baffling, even when building my own RPG many years ago. Taste, Touch and Smell just didn't come up enough to warrant their own Skill. This is one case where I can see a good reason to roll all five up into Perception, but I don't think I want to. I think I'll just continue on describing taste, touch and smell, in rare cases calling for an Attribute Check to recognise a fleeting scent, taste, etc...

Ravyn
2007-06-17, 11:32 PM
Spot if you're just noticing it. Search if you're actively looking for it. Seem reasonable?

TheOOB
2007-06-18, 01:32 AM
You could try folding spot and listen into a perception skill that covers all senses. Searching has little to do with senses, its more about logic, it's your ability to take a large amount of data, say a bunch of coins in a chest or flagstones on a wall, and catagorize them to find something special or out of the ordinary, like the old platinum piece, or the stone that presses to open a secret door.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-06-18, 06:58 AM
These days, I'm more inclined to do away with spot checks altogether. It is never bad to give the players more information. Particulary in a Mystery game.

If the clothes smell strongly of cedar wood, then just tell the players, for free, there's no point in not.

Matthew
2007-06-18, 07:18 AM
Altogether? What about for determining Encounter Distance or spotting hidden enemies?

Human Paragon 3
2007-06-18, 07:49 AM
These days, I'm more inclined to do away with spot checks altogether. It is never bad to give the players more information. Particulary in a Mystery game.

If the clothes smell strongly of cedar wood, then just tell the players, for free, there's no point in not.

But what if they smell faintly of cedar wood? Unless the player states "I smell the clothes," which I doubt any player would, they probably wouldn't notice it. Then, if they were making a search check they might.

One of the reasons I like the checks is that it makes the player feel like his skillpoints or abillity scores have gotten him somewhere, and also makes them feel good that they snooped out secret information.

Maybe while the PCs were searching the room I could make a "secret roll," ask for their WIS modifier, and then inform them that they noticed that the clothes smell of cedar wood.

Valdyr
2007-06-18, 08:14 AM
Smell, taste and touch are taken for granted in rpgs, as we've said, since they come up so rarely. However, the characters still have them and in fact are using those senses 24 hours a day (or however long your fantasy-world day is). In order to get them to really use them in a game setting, i.e. "I smell the clothes." you've got to include smell in your description of things. Most things in D&D smell musty or bad. Thus, unless you give the players reasons to smell things, they're going to use the Mark I eyeball most of the time.

Touch is something different as characters touch things all the time. If a character touches something or interacts with it, I feel like they should get the information out of it. If they say "I go through the clothes, is there anything special about them?" I feel they're entitled to "They smell like cedar." If you don't give them information because they didn't specify the exactly correct sense, your players are going to be upset with you: "What do you mean? I went through the clothes, you said there was nothing special about them, so I moved on." "Yes, but you didn't smell them. If you had smelled them you would have gotten the information."

And taste, well, the only things the PCs are going to be tasting is Dwarven Ale and Elvish Wine. Tasting just about anything else is a one way ticket to a Fortitude Save.

martyboy74
2007-06-18, 08:21 AM
And taste, well, the only things the PCs are going to be tasting is Dwarven Ale and Elvish Wine. Tasting just about anything else is a one way ticket to a Fortitude Save.

Psst! Those are also a one-way ticket to a fortitude save!

Dan_Hemmens
2007-06-18, 08:58 AM
Altogether? What about for determining Encounter Distance or spotting hidden enemies?

Encounter distance isn't something I've ever worried about (I don't tend to play games where it matters). Hidden enemies are tougher issue, but to be honest I don't think you lose that much. My experience of these sorts of things is that you only spot hidden enemies if the GM wants you to *anyway*.

Peregrine
2007-06-18, 09:36 AM
Ha! I noticed exactly the same thing. The only creatures that have noses are those with the Scent ability, which works the same for everyone. (Oh, and that +2 to Craft (Alchemy) that gnomes get.) I don't like that.

So I've got here a draft of my idea for making a new skill: Smell/Taste (Wis). Since the sense of "taste" is in large part dependent on olfactory input, and since they're both pretty minor things, they can go together as one skill. No human or similar without a penchant for food tasting and fine wines will bother picking up ranks in it, but creatures that track by scent will. The Scent ability now lets them use this skill to do so, rather like the Track feat for Survival. It also would probably be necessary in order to notice scents above a certain DC. Otherwise you have to lower the DC in order to detect something, say by holding a thing to your nose. Or something like that... I did say it was a draft.

Sutremaine
2007-06-18, 09:58 AM
No human or similar without a penchant for food tasting and fine wines will bother picking up ranks in it....
I'd consider picking it up if it gave something like Blindsense or Blindsight with a high enough check.

Golthur
2007-06-18, 10:40 AM
So I've got here a draft of my idea for making a new skill: Smell/Taste (Wis). Since the sense of "taste" is in large part dependent on olfactory input, and since they're both pretty minor things, they can go together as one skill. No human or similar without a penchant for food tasting and fine wines will bother picking up ranks in it, but creatures that track by scent will. The Scent ability now lets them use this skill to do so, rather like the Track feat for Survival. It also would probably be necessary in order to notice scents above a certain DC. Otherwise you have to lower the DC in order to detect something, say by holding a thing to your nose. Or something like that... I did say it was a draft.

I do this. In one of my campaign settings I have several races that can have abnormally good senses of smell, so I've implemented a Smell skill that works similarly to Listen/Spot. The DCs for the check are too high for humans to have much of a chance. Any creature with Lesser Scent or Scent ends up getting a substantial bonus on the check, which, together with any purchased ranks, brings the DCs into the "possible" range.

Penguinsushi
2007-06-18, 10:49 AM
The biggest problem with adding skills - particularly skills that aren't class-specific - is that the number of skill points allotted to characters is based upon the number of total skills. Having 60 skill points would be much less cool if there were 150 separate skills instead of a mere 30 or so.

But one or two wouldn't hurt, and the smell/taste/touch/ skill ideas aren't bad.

Alternatively, you could roll all the listen/spot/smell/taste/touch (wis) skills into one skill simply called 'perception'...

Still, i generally just use wisdom checks for taste, smell and touch (for things that aren't blatantly obvious). As long as you realize it's an ability check (and set the DC accordingly), it works out well.

~PS

Telonius
2007-06-18, 12:40 PM
The site ate my previous post, I'll try again.

The closest thing to a scent-based skill check I've been able to find is this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm):

A gnome has a +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks because gnomes have sensitive noses.

Scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/naturalSpecialAbilities.htm#scent) is actually listed as an extraordinary ability.

This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.
The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.
A creature with the Track feat and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10. The DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Track feat. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.
Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.
Water, particularly running water, ruins a trail for air-breathing creatures. Water-breathing creatures that have the scent ability, however, can use it in the water easily.
False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures, and the base Survival DC to track becomes 20 rather than 10.


Oddly enough the SRD seems to contradict itself a little. Is the check a flat Wisdom check, or a Survival check?

In any case, we do have a couple of base assumptions to draw from. Gnomes have more sensitive noses than other races, smelling something involves either a Wisdom check or a Survival check, and being able to smell well helps you at making alchemy checks.
Personally I'd set it like this. Wisdom check.
Overpowering odor (rotting corpse, cesspool, etc) - automatic success.
Strong odor (onions, smoke) - DC 5
Normal odor (perfume, strong aftershave) - DC 10
Faint odor (...can't think of a good example) - DC 15
Very Faint odor (a bear passed here yesterday) - DC 20*
* - must have Scent ability to notice smells of DC 20 or higher.

Modifiers
Presence of other odors. Overpowering: +20 DC, Strong: +5 DC
Time since the source left: +2 DC/hour
Previous successful identification of the smell: -2 DC. ("I recognize that perfume!")
5 ranks in Alchemy grant a +2 synergy to wisdom checks related to smell.
Gnomes get a +2 bonus on wisdom checks related to smell.
How's that sound?

Jayabalard
2007-06-18, 01:08 PM
Smell, taste and touch are taken for granted in rpgs, as we've said, since they come up so rarely. While this may be true of D&D, it's not necessarily true of RPGs in general.

GURPS, for example, does all sense rolls based off of IQ, and there are individual advantages and disadvantages for acute/bad vision (blindness), acute/bad hearing (deafness), acute/bad taste/smell (anosmia) and touch (though this one may only be in supers, I can't remember). Taste and smell are lumped together because the vast majority of flavors that you can "taste" (10,000+ vs 6) is actually from your sense of smell.