Warlock: Spells per Encounter/Per hour.

[Regulas]

So what do people think about the idea of just having Warlocks automatically regenerate their spells after an hour (outside of combat since the last non-cantrip spell cast) without the need to actually short rest for it. Or even simply to have spells per encounter.

It really seems like they were explicitly designed to be "per encounter" basis more, with the infamous modifying classes article more or less implying you should be entering almost every encounter rested. 1 hour fits best with spell durations and allowing the possibility of throwing multiple encounters before they regen spells. It also makes non-encounter casting far far more viable and even makes some of the terrible invocations seem a little more worthwhile.

[Stygofthedump]

Are you kidding me? Warlocks do not need improving.

[JellyPooga]

"Per Short Rest" is easier on the book-keeping. Keeping tabs on when you last cast a spell and/or ended combat is a pain in the butt.

"So I cast one spell in that fight, so I've still got one slot I can use"
*Half-and-hour later*
"Right so I cast a spell just now, so in half an hour I'll get a spell slot back and half and hour after that I'll be able to cast another"
*ten minutes later*
"Oh crud, a fight. Er, I can only cast one spell, great"
*Fight ends after 10 minutes...it was a looong fight*
"So, I cast a spell in that fight, so I can cast a spell again in an hour, but I can cast another spell in ten minutes because of the spell I cast in the last fight being back in an hour or, er, wait...how does this work?"

If you have to wait a full hour of non-combat after each fight to get any spell slots back, then what's the functional difference, really, between this and having to short rest?

If you only have to wait an hour after a fight for spells expended in that fight or fighting interrupts recovery time without "resetting" the clock, then as I said above; it's just a pain to track it easily. In-game time is often flexible at best, so trying to keep an accurate clock can be hard.

[Lines]

Are you kidding me? Warlocks do not need improving.

Not saying I'd go this far to improve them, but they are the weakest of the proper casters.

[Regulas]

Are you kidding me? Warlocks do not need improving.
How so? They have one of the most awkward designs that relies heavily on specific builds/optimisation to be fine. Not to mention that as noted Warlocks seem to have been specifically made in 5e to be "per encounter casters" that were then poorly converted when they removed per encounter mechanics in favour of just having rests. Ultimately they just don't play like how they were clearly supposed to be, and picking them is mostly just for the flavour at the end of the day.




"Per Short Rest" is easier on the book-keeping. Keeping tabs on when you last cast a spell and/or ended combat is a pain in the butt.


That's only if you decide to make the concept overly specific and knit-pick. More generally my thought was simply to change the spells to be actually just per encounter, but this doesn't account for non encounter uses.

[Belac93]

Not saying I'd go this far to improve them, but they are the weakest of the proper casters.

Maybe their actual spellcasting, but take a look at some of they're other features. Extreme versatility. They have the option of 4 different patrons+3 different pacts. That by itself is the equivalent of 12 different subclasses. Then you factor in the invocations, and they are suddenly the most customizable class in the game, barring possibly wizards.

Plus, Eldritch blast is some of the best consistent damage there is. the equivalent of a fighter attacking with a halberd from 120 feet away. And nothing can resist it, except magic resisting creatures. Add in a hex, and its even more damage. And with the right pact, you can actually be attacking with a halberd if you want.

I think there is a reason a 2 level dip into warlock is rated blue on most class guides.

Plus, this solution would get confusing.

[JellyPooga]

That's only if you decide to make the concept overly specific and knit-pick. More generally my thought was simply to change the spells to be actually just per encounter, but this doesn't account for non encounter uses.

That's precisely the problem with it; if you're not going to be specific, how are you actually regulating it? By handwavium? Short Rest recuperation fits with not only other Classes features, making it consistent with those other rules, but is also a convenient method of regulating Warlock spell usage both in and out of combat.

What does your proposed method actually fix? Or does it just make things more complicated and/or reliant on DM fiat?

[Regulas]

That's precisely the problem with it; if you're not going to be specific, how are you actually regulating it? By handwavium? Short Rest recuperation fits with not only other Classes features, making it consistent with those other rules, but is also a convenient method of regulating Warlock spell usage both in and out of combat.

What does your proposed method actually fix? Or does it just make things more complicated and/or reliant on DM fiat?

The point is essentially to be you have your spell slots "per encounter" save where the DM doesn't want you to have regained them. Roughly an hour since you last cast a spell is as simple enough concept unless you're the kind of person whos going to be asking the DM every 10 seconds how much time has passed (are we there yet, are we there yet!).

Why am I suggesting this. Because this is what Warlocks are supposed to actually do according to every source and piece of information about Warlock design I can find. Most notably from the modifying classes article, note the term more frequently. Because the one thing warlocks currently DONT do is cast spells more frequently, also why? because warlocks are pretty much "Eldritch Blast" and some random flavour:

"Warlocks have a unique spellcasting method, and they rely on being able to cast a smaller number of spells more frequently. Remember that a warlock automatically increases the spell slot level of spells he or she casts, meaning that even lower-level spells gain potency when cast by a warlock.
The warlock spell list was carefully cultivated to avoid including spells that might become annoying if cast too often at the table. If you want to grant a warlock access to a new spell, but are concerned that its frequent casting could be disruptive to the game, consider creating an eldritch invocation that enables the use of the same magic on a more limited basis (by requiring a rest between uses, for instance)."


Maybe their actual spellcasting, but take a look at some of they're other features. Extreme versatility. They have the option of 4 different patrons+3 different pacts. That by itself is the equivalent of 12 different subclasses. Then you factor in the invocations, and they are suddenly the most customizable class in the game, barring possibly wizards.

Plus, Eldritch blast is some of the best consistent damage there is. the equivalent of a fighter attacking with a halberd from 120 feet away. And nothing can resist it, except magic resisting creatures. Add in a hex, and its even more damage. And with the right pact, you can actually be attacking with a halberd if you want.

I think there is a reason a 2 level dip into warlock is rated blue on most class guides.

Plus, this solution would get confusing.

Almost all of these are exactly why the class is so poorly designed. It's a great dip both because it's heavily front-loaded, and because most of the better abilities are in the first few levels.

It has all these customisation options but few worth taking and a lot of forced choices to stay competitive.

And yes Eldritch blast is decent but hardly justifies the rest, and worse again means that almost all the value of the class is in those first 2 levels.

[Lines]

Maybe their actual spellcasting, but take a look at some of they're other features. Extreme versatility. They have the option of 4 different patrons+3 different pacts. That by itself is the equivalent of 12 different subclasses. Then you factor in the invocations, and they are suddenly the most customizable class in the game, barring possibly wizards.

Plus, Eldritch blast is some of the best consistent damage there is. the equivalent of a fighter attacking with a halberd from 120 feet away. And nothing can resist it, except magic resisting creatures. Add in a hex, and its even more damage. And with the right pact, you can actually be attacking with a halberd if you want.

I think there is a reason a 2 level dip into warlock is rated blue on most class guides.

Plus, this solution would get confusing.

Customisation doesn't equal strength unless you've got worthwhile options. Yes, hex, eldritch blast and a 2 level dip are very useful - that's kinda the point, actually being a warlock as your full class is a fairly weak option in comparison.

There's a part of this that is confusing me a lot - bolded it for clarity. Why on earth is this a selling point? Pact of the blade is literally useless (flat out does the same or less damage than eldritch blast does but without the free knockback on top of requiring you to be in melee, invest heavily into a tertiary stat, and waste your pact boon) and I have no idea why 'you can actually attack with a halberd' is a selling point.

[JellyPooga]

The point is...(snip)

So...you're saying that the point is to make it basically reliant on GM fiat (you get full usage every combat, and as much use as the GM says out of it). That's fine, really. If that's the way you want to roll and everyone at your table is happy with it, I don't foresee any particular problem with it. Warlocks will be more effective, certainly. Whether they need the boost is open to debate; I don't think they do but then the way I play, I get a lot of Short Rests in.

If you don't short rest at least three times in an adventuring day, the Warlock will appear very weak. With your proposed change, Warlocks will seem very strong in games that have a lot of fights in a given adventuring day, but progressively weaker the less fights they have.

[Belac93]

I have no idea why 'you can actually attack with a halberd' is a selling point.

Definitely not a selling point at all. I was just pointing out that if you want, you could. Fighters cannot cast EB if they feel like it. (I'll admit that there are easy ways to get around this.) It was another part of the customization.

I'm a little different than most people. I don't put the selling point last.

I wouldn't say pact of the blade is useless. Its a worse option than the others, but can be made good. And you don't have to invest in a tertiary stat at all. Almost all warlocks I've seen make dex a secondary stat. If you use a rapier, that can be fun. It is worse than just attacking with EB, but I like the roleplaying/flavor aspect of it.

Plus it gives my characters the option to stab people and make deals with demons, so there's that as well. :smallbiggrin:

[Regulas]

So...you're saying that the point is to make it basically reliant on GM fiat (you get full usage every combat, and as much use as the GM says out of it). That's fine, really. If that's the way you want to roll and everyone at your table is happy with it, I don't foresee any particular problem with it. Warlocks will be more effective, certainly. Whether they need the boost is open to debate; I don't think they do but then the way I play, I get a lot of Short Rests in.

If you don't short rest at least three times in an adventuring day, the Warlock will appear very weak. With your proposed change, Warlocks will seem very strong in games that have a lot of fights in a given adventuring day, but progressively weaker the less fights they have.

As far as I can see three per day is actually quite uncommon/unusual, I've rarely seen or heard about groups who do more then 1 or 2 a day. Also the point of 1/hour is specifically so that you won't have spells for every single encounter, but you will for most. And that's kind of the point, unless your DM is going out of his way to make sure you get enough short rests then you won't be getting the spellcasting you should, and honestly that to me is just as much DM fiat.

[MaxWilson]

I wouldn't say pact of the blade is useless. Its a worse option than the others, but can be made good. And you don't have to invest in a tertiary stat at all. Almost all warlocks I've seen make dex a secondary stat. If you use a rapier, that can be fun. It is worse than just attacking with EB, but I like the roleplaying/flavor aspect of it.

Pact of the blade is not useless, but like most of the Pacts, it's a very minor part of the class. (Contrast with choice of patron, which is a major part of the class.) Eldritch Blast is often better than Thirsting Blade + Lifedrinker, but there are specific situations where a melee weapon is better than a ranged attack. For example, attacking a prone enemy: melee weapon will have advantage, whereas a ranged attack would have disadvantage.

Add this all up and you find that a Warbearian (Barbarian (Bear Totem) 3/Warlock 17 (Pact of the Blade)) has all of the fun parts of being a barbarian (e.g. doing 80-100 points of damage per turn via Reckless Attack w/ Polearm Master and GWM and Rage and Armor of Agathys V) and all of the fun parts of being a warlock (True Polymorph/Foresight, cool invocations like unlimited Silent Image/Arcane Eye, good ranged attack via Agonizing Repelling Blast, being able to freely spam high-level spells like Evard's Black Tentacles with no real fear of running out since you can get everything back just by resting for an hour instead of a whole day). If it weren't for the Bladelock invocations (Lifedrinker + Thirsting Blade) this build would feel decidedly suboptimal compared to a real Barbarian, but as it is, Bladelocks make the best Barbarians.

(You do need good stat rolls though because you're MAD, probably including at least one rolled 17. You can't make an effective Warbearian on a 10, 12, 11, 10, 8, 4 stat array, like you can for a Moon Druid.)

[Malifice]

It really seems like they were explicitly designed to be "per encounter" basis more, with the infamous modifying classes article more or less implying you should be entering almost every encounter rested.

You should be getting a short rest (on average) every 2 or so encounters according to the DMG.

[Gastronomie]

One idea I heard before is to give the warlock 3 Spell Slots at level 6, 4 at level 11, and 5 at level 17. Probably works better if you feel warlock is underpowered.

[Regulas]

One idea I heard before is to give the warlock 3 Spell Slots at level 6, 4 at level 11, and 5 at level 17. Probably works better if you feel warlock is underpowered.

I've seen this idea before (some blogpost). This has some odd implications though mostly since it basically increases your maximum power (casting thrice in one encounter), instead of simply minimising your disadvantage.


You should be getting a short rest (on average) every 2 or so encounters according to the DMG.

Do you in your campaigns normally get them at that rate? In my experience often enough short rests aren't that common simply because taking a break just doesn't quite mesh with what's happening actively, even if you shorten it from an hour (we've been making explosions inside this heavily defended castle, our best course of action? Sit around and relax for an hour!).

[MeeposFire]

You could just go back to the 4e rest mechanic which is the 5 minute short rest variant in the 5e DMG. Then you will be casting those spells almost every encounter. It amkes monks, fighters, and warlocks really shine but it might be up your alley.

[Malifice]

Do you in your campaigns normally get them at that rate?

The standard adventuring day in my campaigns is around 6 encounters per day, incorporating 2 short rests (after every 2 or so encounters). I stick to this pacing for around 50 percent of the groups adventuring days, with the occasional longer and occasional shorter adventuring day.


In my experience often enough short rests aren't that common simply because taking a break just doesn't quite mesh with what's happening actively, even if you shorten it from an hour (we've been making explosions inside this heavily defended castle, our best course of action? Sit around and relax for an hour!).

Then stop making explosions. Or learn rope trick.

[Regulas]

I feel like maybe I should make another thread, though it is in a similar vein possibly as an alternate far less drastic option: what if the 1/day Invocations just didn't take a spell slot (but remained once/day). Except maybe for Polymorph (cause it's just that broken of a spell). It would make some of them far less poor of a choice and effectively, if only slightly, expand spells/day.




Then stop making explosions. Or learn rope trick. That was just for emphasis.

[MaxWilson]

Do you in your campaigns normally get them at that rate? In my experience often enough short rests aren't that common simply because taking a break just doesn't quite mesh with what's happening actively, even if you shorten it from an hour (we've been making explosions inside this heavily defended castle, our best course of action? Sit around and relax for an hour!).

That's what Rope Trick is for. Sit and relax for an hour in your invisible interdimensional lounge until the enemy calms down and the enemy starts feeling safe. Then hit them again from a new angle.

[Bgharcourt]

Pact of the blade is not useless, but like most of the Pacts, it's a very minor part of the class. (Contrast with choice of patron, which is a major part of the class.) Eldritch Blast is often better than Thirsting Blade + Lifedrinker, but there are specific situations where a melee weapon is better than a ranged attack. For example, attacking a prone enemy: melee weapon will have advantage, whereas a ranged attack would have disadvantage.

Add this all up and you find that a Warbearian (Barbarian (Bear Totem) 3/Warlock 17 (Pact of the Blade)) has all of the fun parts of being a barbarian (e.g. doing 80-100 points of damage per turn via Reckless Attack w/ Polearm Master and GWM and Rage and Armor of Agathys V) and all of the fun parts of being a warlock (True Polymorph/Foresight, cool invocations like unlimited Silent Image/Arcane Eye, good ranged attack via Agonizing Repelling Blast, being able to freely spam high-level spells like Evard's Black Tentacles with no real fear of running out since you can get everything back just by resting for an hour instead of a whole day). If it weren't for the Bladelock invocations (Lifedrinker + Thirsting Blade) this build would feel decidedly suboptimal compared to a real Barbarian, but as it is, Bladelocks make the best Barbarians.

(You do need good stat rolls though because you're MAD, probably including at least one rolled 17. You can't make an effective Warbearian on a 10, 12, 11, 10, 8, 4 stat array, like you can for a Moon Druid.)


This right here is what is wrong with Pact of the Blade. The fact that you are weaker for going full Warlock is bad design right out of the gate. Every Bladelock build guide has the same phrase in it: "you will need to multiclass to make it effective." I still love the every living hell out of playing one(am currently), but the Invocation tax, the M.A.Dness is a real downer. While the rest of my party are taking feats, I have to use the ASI bump on at least 3 stats(dex, cha, con)to make my build good enough for the encounters we are currently facing.

[Malifice]

This right here is what is wrong with Pact of the Blade. The fact that you are weaker for going full Warlock is bad design right out of the gate. Every Bladelock build guide has the same phrase in it: "you will need to multiclass to make it effective." I still love the every living hell out of playing one(am currently), but the Invocation tax, the M.A.Dness is a real downer. While the rest of my party are taking feats, I have to use the ASI bump on at least 3 stats(dex, cha, con)to make my build good enough for the encounters we are currently facing.

Dex lock was your first mistake. Theyre much better with Strength (and heavy armor) + GWM or PAM or both.

And yeah, they do require a dip into a martial class to avoid the heavy investment in something that is a core of the class. One of the few classes in 5E that require a level of system mastery to do well.

I share your love for the class mate.

[Socratov]

The problem with the getting stuff back on resting mechanic is that some classes can gain great benefits from short rests, while other classes can only spend their HD for some healing. For a paladin with great AC and lots of hp left it's pretty much useless to short rest since all their abilities refresh on a long rest. Same goes for the major casters like wizards and clerics.

land druids get to refresh some spells, sorcerers get some spells back, moon druids get their wildshape back, valor bards theirinspiration, lore bards as well as some spells, etc. other classes are worse off and get a once per day refresh, if at all...

[Lines]

The problem with the getting stuff back on resting mechanic is that some classes can gain great benefits from short rests, while other classes can only spend their HD for some healing. For a paladin with great AC and lots of hp left it's pretty much useless to short rest since all their abilities refresh on a long rest. Same goes for the major casters like wizards and clerics.

land druids get to refresh some spells, sorcerers get some spells back, moon druids get their wildshape back, valor bards theirinspiration, lore bards as well as some spells, etc. other classes are worse off and get a once per day refresh, if at all...

An easy method to fix that is put spellcasters on spell points and then have them restore some spell points on a short rest, then give warlocks something unique to make up for having their main thing stolen.

[JellyPooga]

The problem with the getting stuff back on resting mechanic is that some classes can gain great benefits from short rests, while other classes can only spend their HD for some healing.

And then there's that thing called "being a team-player". Just because your character isn't getting any mechanical benefit out of taking a short rest, doesn't mean they're not going to appreciate the opportunity to grab a drink of water, have a bite of food, take a leak and lean on a wall for a bit. Adventuring is hard work in uncomfortable clothing, whilst carrying a heavy load. Not to mention how mentally and physically exhausting and dangerous a fight is. PC's are people too!

[Regulas]

And bladelock... oh bladelock.... the idea of multiclassing (something I don't much like) being more or less mandatory is just... horrifying...

Let's see the minimum changes it would need would be something like this:
- Make attack and dmg stat charisma. By default.
-Make the invocations for it just non-invocation default at level aspects of the pact.
-Gain medium armour proficiency.

And now at this point you should have enough to at least now be able to compensate for what else you lack with your other Warlock class abilities.

[Theodoxus]

So many things to comment on!

I'm toying with the idea of going to a 5 minute short rest - but for ability refresh only. You need a full hour to use hit dice - call it wound binding and face stuffing time. (Seriously, your paladins don't eat? Or is everyone subsisting on their sole goodberry - yawn!) This would effectively make Warlocks, Monks, Fighters and Druids able to nova their abilities each encounter. Just means I get to make stronger encounters - something I enjoy.

As for Bladelock - the addition of GFB and BB make maximizing strength less of a priority. In fact, it takes away the need for the extra attack invocation (yay, less invo-tax!) Bladelocks become the defacto switchhitter and adding Spellsniper and PAM to the mix, with its reaction goodness just makes it that much better. (Add warcaster to the nachos and you're pretty freakin' unstoppable - especially if you've gone Fiend pact for the THP boost...) This works even without the fighter dip... and, if you're using AoA, you kinda want a slightly lower AC, or it never triggers, and is a waste of a spell slot...

[Lines]

And bladelock... oh bladelock.... the idea of multiclassing (something I don't much like) being more or less mandatory is just... horrifying...

Let's see the minimum changes it would need would be something like this:
- Make attack and dmg stat charisma. By default.
-Make the invocations for it just non-invocation default at level aspects of the pact.
-Gain medium armour proficiency.

And now at this point you should have enough to at least now be able to compensate for what else you lack with your other Warlock class abilities.

Most of what bladelock actually needs is cool abilities, of which they gave it none. Right now it's just dull numbers, despite the perfect opportunity to give the warlock invocations or spells to do cool things with their pact weapon. They could have given it the ability to give enemies it hits disadvantage on saves against your spells, to let you attack as a bonus action after using fey presence, to gain double HP from dark one's blessing when you kill the creature with your pact weapon, to have entropic weapon let you counterattack...

Pact weapon, invocations and patron had the potential to combo to make some really cool things, but instead they chose to give you... +1 attack! +cha to damage! flat, boring numbers that are worse than eldritch blast! yaaaaaaaaay!

[Joe the Rat]

Do spells (and other encounter powers) refresh at the beginning or end of combat the encounter? It would be good to know for all of those 'outside an encounter' spell-castings ...hence the rest mechanic.

Having spell slots (and other abilities) on a timer is an interesting take, but works far better with an automated cooldown timer attached to each button. This is simpler for the warlock (1-3, if it's only on spell slots) but reaches insanity for other features and classes (ki points?).



I'm toying with the idea of going to a 5 minute short rest - but for ability refresh only. You need a full hour to use hit dice - call it wound binding and face stuffing time. (Seriously, your paladins don't eat? Or is everyone subsisting on their sole goodberry - yawn!) This would effectively make Warlocks, Monks, Fighters and Druids able to nova their abilities each encounter. Just means I get to make stronger encounters - something I enjoy.

I like this, but you need to limit the number of rests per time period (one an hour, for example). A breather to recharge is good, but I have a feeling that giving the warlock potential access to 22-33 spell slots an hour might be tempting to abuse (never mind the "who needs hit dice?" fighters). This could also make the healer feat stronger, if the bandaging hp resets for each person after the 5 - you could get a lot further with "mundane" healing.

[Regulas]

Most of what bladelock actually needs is cool abilities, of which they gave it none. Right now it's just dull numbers, despite the perfect opportunity to give the warlock invocations or spells to do cool things with their pact weapon. They could have given it the ability to give enemies it hits disadvantage on saves against your spells, to let you attack as a bonus action after using fey presence, to gain double HP from dark one's blessing when you kill the creature with your pact weapon, to have entropic weapon let you counterattack...

Pact weapon, invocations and patron had the potential to combo to make some really cool things, but instead they chose to give you... +1 attack! +cha to damage! flat, boring numbers that are worse than eldritch blast! yaaaaaaaaay!


Well I think there's enough spells and the like to have some cool potential effects already, the problem is that you're too weak otherwise in melee to make good use of them, since you're basically a caster standing in melee with your best effects usually taking concentration

Like Darkness build. Except that if you only have 12-13 AC then you're still not that hard to hit even with disadvantage, and it's a Concentration spell.

Or the Temp HP build, 32 bonus HP doesn't help much if your taking 100 more damage than otherwise and you basically can't use concentration spells.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I've been playing a Bladelock for 12 levels, LifeDrinker just came online, and it's awesome. If there's a problem with the Warlock, it's not with their Pact Magic spell slots, or Short Rest recovery of spell slots, or the Blade Pact.

What I can't believe is that nobody on this thread has a problem with the Mystic Arcanum class feature. This is the worst excuse for a class feature in the game! Look at what Warlocks are stuck with for high-level spells:


One spell per level 6 thru 9, no more.
They can never be changed, ever
They can never be cast in a higher level slot
Their "slots" can never be used to upcast a lower level spell (no level 9 Armor of Agathys? Booooo!)


Seriously, a Bard can pick up Armor of Agathys using Magical Secrets, and eventually upcast it using a 9th level slot. This makes him literally better at casting Warlock spells than a Warlock, which is absolutely ridiculous. (Bad game design, WOTC, no points.)

Am I supposed to believe this is anything even close to a "full caster"? It's a pathetic joke. WOTC needs to scrap Mystic Arcanum and give Warlocks real access to high level spells!

[Theodoxus]

I've yet to encounter Mystic Arcanum... most warlocks in my games are dipping for specific abilities and MCing into something with spell slots. I do have a current player planning on keeping warlock through the campaign, but she's only level 4 - so it'll be a while before we see it in play.

In general, I agree with your statements - but I'd heard the warlock was an homage to 4E and the at will/encounter/daily power structure. Given that the other casters get only 1 additional spell per long rest at most, I don't see this as overly restrictive. I do think it's pretty bad form (especially given the fluff for their magical nature) that they can't change their arcanum as they level. If anything, i'd throw that out and allow the player to swap out spells as they level, much like invocations... though I might require the new spell to be thematically related to their patron, if possible.

[dev6500]

Here is my simple solution to the problem. Just make it so short rests only take 5 minutes but that you can only take 1 short rest per hour. That way, everyone's short rest/ per encounter reliant abilities do not require a full hour undisturbed to be regained but you still can't get any more short rests than you could previously.

[Spacehamster]

Dex lock was your first mistake. Theyre much better with Strength (and heavy armor) + GWM or PAM or both.

And yeah, they do require a dip into a martial class to avoid the heavy investment in something that is a core of the class. One of the few classes in 5E that require a level of system mastery to do well.

I share your love for the class mate.

My next character will be a half elf 8 Oathbreaker 12 Blade/fiend lock, something I always wanted to try out. :)

[JakOfAllTirades]

I've yet to encounter Mystic Arcanum... most warlocks in my games are dipping for specific abilities and MCing into something with spell slots. I do have a current player planning on keeping warlock through the campaign, but she's only level 4 - so it'll be a while before we see it in play.

In general, I agree with your statements - but I'd heard the warlock was an homage to 4E and the at will/encounter/daily power structure. Given that the other casters get only 1 additional spell per long rest at most, I don't see this as overly restrictive. I do think it's pretty bad form (especially given the fluff for their magical nature) that they can't change their arcanum as they level. If anything, i'd throw that out and allow the player to swap out spells as they level, much like invocations... though I might require the new spell to be thematically related to their patron, if possible.

I think the fact that nobody in your games has expressed any interest whatsoever in the higher Warlock levels speaks volumes.

For myself, I'm bailing on the class as of level 12, because of the awfulness of Mystic Arcanum, and now that I've got the LifeDrinker Invocation there's nothing left for a Bladelock. So I'm multiclassing into Rogue/Swashbuckler for 3 levels. (Lots of good synergy there.) I took Mass Suggestion for my 6th level Mystic Arcanum, and unlike any other full caster in the game, I'll never be able to increase its duration beyond 24 hours with a higher level spell slot. Can't begin to say how much that p!$$e$ me off.

[Malifice]

I've been playing a Bladelock for 12 levels, LifeDrinker just came online, and it's awesome. If there's a problem with the Warlock, it's not with their Pact Magic spell slots, or Short Rest recovery of spell slots, or the Blade Pact.

What I can't believe is that nobody on this thread has a problem with the Mystic Arcanum class feature. This is the worst excuse for a class feature in the game! Look at what Warlocks are stuck with for high-level spells:


One spell per level 6 thru 9, no more.
They can never be changed, ever
They can never be cast in a higher level slot
Their "slots" can never be used to upcast a lower level spell (no level 9 Armor of Agathys? Booooo!)


Seriously, a Bard can pick up Armor of Agathys using Magical Secrets, and eventually upcast it using a 9th level slot. This makes him literally better at casting Warlock spells than a Warlock, which is absolutely ridiculous. (Bad game design, WOTC, no points.)

Am I supposed to believe this is anything even close to a "full caster"? It's a pathetic joke. WOTC needs to scrap Mystic Arcanum and give Warlocks real access to high level spells!

I identified this issue myself (but have no warlocks of high enough level to worry about it).

Ive always intended to allow Warlocks to use these slots to upcast other spells known if desired.

I have zero idea why the designers placed this weird restriction on arcanum slots. There is literally no justification for it at all.

[Tanarii]

Mystic Arcanum are limited because warlocks are get a crap ton of level 5 spells per day (9-12 slots), a very strong at will ranged magical attack in EB ((3-4)d10+(3-4)d6+(12-20)), and if a Bladelock a powerhouse Greatsword or dual-shortsword melee attacks (6d6+(16-20) if they use Hex instead of Armor of Agathys). They've very powerful at-will and tons of boosted to mid-power spells on top of that.

Mystic Arcanum & more Edlritch Invocations are a nice icing on the cake. IMO they're generally more powerful than ducking out of the class completely for 8-9 levels of something else. And dipping out has the usual problem of delaying access to more powerful spells for 1-3 levels.

And multi classing/heavy armor isn't required for a Bladelock to be decent. Temp hit points from Dark ones blessing (if fiend). False life and Mage armor at will. Armor of Agathys. They've got plenty of survivabilty to mix and match ranged and melee as required. IMO Str/Cha is the way to go. Half-Orc, Mountain Dwarf and Dragonborn make great Bladelocks.

Edit: also as Malifice pointed out, the assumption is approximately one short rest every other encounter. If you're going to eliminate the actual rest time requirement (ie auto-refresh SR abilities without the hour resting) then refreshing SR abilities should happen every other encounter.

[Malifice]

Mystic Arcanum are limited because warlocks are get a crap ton of level 5 spells per day (9-12 slots), a very strong at will ranged magical attack in EB ((3-4)d10+(3-4)d6+(12-20)), and if a Bladelock a powerhouse Greatsword or dual-shortsword melee attacks (6d6+(16-20) if they use Hex instead of Armor of Agathys). They've very powerful at-will and tons of boosted to mid-power spells on top of that.

The point is why cant a Warlock use (for example) his 9th level arcanum slot to spam a Hellish rebuke instead of Foresight, or to cast an Armor of agathys from?

It breaks absolutely nothing.


And multi classing/heavy armor isn't required for a Bladelock to be decent. Temp hit points from Dark ones blessing (if fiend). False life and Mage armor at will. Armor of Agathys. They've got plenty of survivabilty to mix and match ranged and melee as required. IMO Str/Cha is the way to go. Half-Orc, Mountain Dwarf and Dragonborn make great Bladelocks.

Agree - you can make a good one out of the box, but to get the best out of them a 1 level dip (at least) of fighter at 1st is totally worth it - heavy armor (dump dex) and con saves (hex maintenence) right out of the box. Vuman with polearm master or GWM for the win.

[Tanarii]

The point is why cant a Warlock use (for example) his 9th level arcanum slot to spam a Hellish rebuke instead of Foresight, or to cast an Armor of agathys from?

It breaks absolutely nothing. True. Sub-par options don't usually break things. :p

Of the top of my head, it does limit a multiclass warlock from spamming level 5 versions of a off-spell-list spell and casting level 6-9 versions of it. Otoh those are usually going to be sub-par as level 6-9 versions anyway.

But mostly I think it's a balancing factor against having all your spells automatically boosted to 5th level. The flip side is you can't boost them past 5th level.


Agree - you can make a good one out of the box, but to get the best out of them a 1 level dip (at least) of fighter at 1st is totally worth it - heavy armor (dump dex) and con saves (hex maintenence) right out of the box. Vuman with polearm master or GWM for the win.A Str bladelock can (mostly) dump dex anyway, was my point. Tempt hps make up for the lower AC, assuming you're not going to spend *all* your time in melee. Otoh if you want to be a GISH, melee almost all the time with no or rare magical attacks, using your magic for buffing, yeah, you definitely want that extra AC. And if you're going to be Armor of Agathys, not so much. Otherwise, it really comes down to: is it worth delaying your spell progression for, given you get (or can choose) mitigating abilities to cover the lack? Some players will think yes, others (like me) no.

[Estralita]

I wonder if the reason the Mystic Arcanums are so tightly regulates is because the designers were worried that if they didn't keep it tightly worded, some player would find a loophole to give them infinite 9th level spells, and overcompensated.

Obviously, the reason the Pact Magic system doesn't carry on to 9th level is because that would give huge numbers of high level spell slots, where even wizards only get one a day. At the same time, they didn't want to deprive Warlocks of higher level spells. So they created a distinct system, regulated more tightly to contrast with the more loose Pact Magic. On the face of it, it looks equal. Full casters get one sixth, seventh, eighth, and ninth level spell per day, so Warlocks also get that many spells per day. And the rest of it seems to come from not thinking the concept all the way through. The "not able to replace spells thing" sound like an oversight that they are sticking to, or an overestimation of how powerful switching the spells would be. And the "no upcasting thing"...I think it has to do with the desire to create a complete disconnect between the pact magic spells, and the higher level spell slots. Maybe they were worried players would complain that these spell slots act exactly like their lower level spell slots, but don't recharge on a short rest like them. Instead, well... they gave the players worse things to complain about.

Remember, this is all my speculation. And in any case, I haven't played high level Warlock, so I can't say how limited it actually feels.

Warlocks can get a number of at will out of combat spells, and other neat abilties. (Someday, I will use Hurl through Hell!) and while I have dipped into the class for the Eldritch Blast, I've also played full Warlocks, and I really like them, flavor and mechanics wise.

[Vogonjeltz]

Most of what bladelock actually needs is cool abilities, of which they gave it none. Right now it's just dull numbers, despite the perfect opportunity to give the warlock invocations or spells to do cool things with their pact weapon. They could have given it the ability to give enemies it hits disadvantage on saves against your spells, to let you attack as a bonus action after using fey presence, to gain double HP from dark one's blessing when you kill the creature with your pact weapon, to have entropic weapon let you counterattack...

Pact weapon, invocations and patron had the potential to combo to make some really cool things, but instead they chose to give you... +1 attack! +cha to damage! flat, boring numbers that are worse than eldritch blast! yaaaaaaaaay!

To clarify, the tome/chain/blade isn't the archetype, it's the choice of Patron.

That's presumably why the patrons all provide wildly differing capabilities.

[Malifice]

But mostly I think it's a balancing factor against having all your spells automatically boosted to 5th level. The flip side is you can't boost them past 5th level.

Not an issue with your arcanum slots though seeing as theyre fixed at 1 x 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th per long rest (and you only know one each of 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th).

I cant see any problem (balance wise) of allowing a warlock to use those arcanum slots to cast an upscaled spell he knows via pact magic.

All it does is give the warlock more options with those slots. It doesnt upscale them at all.


A Str bladelock can (mostly) dump dex anyway, was my point. Tempt hps make up for the lower AC, assuming you're not going to spend *all* your time in melee. Otoh if you want to be a GISH, melee almost all the time with no or rare magical attacks, using your magic for buffing, yeah, you definitely want that extra AC. And if you're going to be Armor of Agathys, not so much. Otherwise, it really comes down to: is it worth delaying your spell progression for, given you get (or can choose) mitigating abilities to cover the lack? Some players will think yes, others (like me) no.

A one level delay isnt that big a deal for mine. Most of your damage comes from smashing face in melee so the fighter level helps more than it hurts in that respect, and even at 5th level when you would normally get thirsting blade, youre getting access to greenflame blade to pick up some of the slack (it scales at 5th).

You just dont have enough slots to reliably spit out a Hex and an Armor of Agathys spell, and have both last the 2 or so encounters between short rests. I find the assurance of heavy armor plus second wind coupled with temp HP on a kill (which I stacked with HAM) to work much better. Id love to make better use of Armor of Agathys, but have been using it as a 'cast this spell before short resting if I have a spell slot left' device. Its the only time I've been able to get any use out of it (and I love the spell).

I love it so much Im considering a porcipine Warlock 2/ Abjurer 15/ Sorcerer 3 (to quicken AoA back up should it go down) as my next build.

[Tanarii]

Not an issue with your arcanum slots though seeing as theyre fixed at 1 x 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th per long rest (and you only know one each of 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th).

I cant see any problem (balance wise) of allowing a warlock to use those arcanum slots to cast an upscaled spell he knows via pact magic.

All it does is give the warlock more options with those slots. It doesnt upscale them at all.

My point is, at levels 11+, warlocks get 9-12 5th level slots per day for 11-15 known spells. Compared to other casters getting 11-12 slots event distributed from 2nd to 5th for upcasts, with (most likely) around 15-16 spells known/prepared that can be used in them, some of them for a very limited number of them.

Another way to look at it: Full progression spell casters are limited to casting their 5th level spells to 3/day. 4th level 6/day. Etc. meanwhile warlocks can cast 5th level spells all day long if that's their best option for the situations.

Limited fixed option mystic arcanum are the trade off for that huge boost warlocks get.

[Douche]

I've only ever seen this argument in a party that is long rest dependent, and the DM is lenient with them taking a long rest after every combat or every other combat. In that case, the warlock isn't living up to his full potential cuz the wizards and stuff can blow all their spells in 2 combats without worrying. Meanwhile you've got like 3 spell slots to use in 2 combats. In that case, it would be fair to give the warlock spells per combat, rather than per short rest.

[Tanarii]

I've only ever seen this argument in a party that is long rest dependent, and the DM is lenient with them taking a long rest after every combat or every other combat. In that case, the warlock isn't living up to his full potential cuz the wizards and stuff can blow all their spells in 2 combats without worrying. Meanwhile you've got like 3 spell slots to use in 2 combats. In that case, it would be fair to give the warlock spells per combat, rather than per short rest.

A better solution in that situation is to stop being so damn lenient, and use a Rest variant designed to account for that situation.

[Submortimer]

A better solution in that situation is to stop being so damn lenient, and use a Rest variant designed to account for that situation.

This. My players have almost always objected to the 1 hour short rest, so I allow them to take a short rest in as little as 5 minutes time. That being said, I limit them to 2 less-than-an-hour short rests per day, so they can't abuse it too badly.

[Rummy]

I'm convinced that people that say that Pact of the Blade is terrible have never played a Bladelock. Wow they are a blast! Someone was complaining that they are boring! We had a fight against harpies on a bridge, so I flipped on spider walk and battled the flying scourges standing on the underside of the bridge. We were attacked by a number hulk, so I flipped on darkness and saved everyone else in the party from going crazy just looking at the beast. We were attacked by a cultist spamming blade ward and I laughed as my 4th level character with the only magical weapon in the party sliced through the defenses. Bladelocks Rock.

Full disclosure: they do require precision tuning and a melee dip.

[MarkTriumphant]

You just dont have enough slots to reliably spit out a Hex and an Armor of Agathys spell, and have both last the 2 or so encounters between short rests. I find the assurance of heavy armor plus second wind coupled with temp HP on a kill (which I stacked with HAM) to work much better. Id love to make better use of Armor of Agathys, but have been using it as a 'cast this spell before short resting if I have a spell slot left' device. Its the only time I've been able to get any use out of it (and I love the spell).

But AoA only lasts an hour, so would not make it past the end of the short rest.

[Tanarii]

I love it so much Im considering a porcipine Warlock 2/ Abjurer 15/ Sorcerer 3 (to quicken AoA back up should it go down) as my next build.This seems like a weird build. The Abjureres Ward would prevent Armor of Agathys from triggering.

Also, AoA is kind of meh with a Fiend lock, especially with False life at will to start off fights. Because Dark One's thp can't keep the spell alive. If you take the Dark One's thp (because they're more than the AoA remaining thp) while the spell is still active, it ends the spell. It doesn't keep it active by continually refreshing it.

AoA works better for Fey or GOO Bladelocks.

[Submortimer]

I'm convinced that people that say that Pact of the Blade is terrible have never played a Bladelock. Wow they are a blast! Someone was complaining that they are boring! We had a fight against harpies on a bridge, so I flipped on spider walk and battled the flying scourges standing on the underside of the bridge. We were attacked by a number hulk, so I flipped on darkness and saved everyone else in the party from going crazy just looking at the beast. We were attacked by a cultist spamming blade ward and I laughed as my 4th level character with the only magical weapon in the party sliced through the defenses. Bladelocks Rock.

Full disclosure: they do require precision tuning and a melee dip.

Agreed. Starting as a fighter for your first level is enough to make them truly awesome, though: Heavy armor, Shields, Fighting style, Con Save bonus...it's intense.

[JackPhoenix]

This seems like a weird build. The Abjureres Ward would prevent Armor of Agathys from triggering.

Armor of Agathys triggers on being hit, Arcane Ward absorbs the damage taken when you're hit. They work together perfectly. It would be even better with a source of B/P/S resistance. If only Blade Ward wasn't an action...

[JakOfAllTirades]

Agreed. Starting as a fighter for your first level is enough to make them truly awesome, though: Heavy armor, Shields, Fighting style, Con Save bonus...it's intense.


<shrug>

I've done fine without it.

[Tanarii]

Armor of Agathys triggers on being hit, Arcane Ward absorbs the damage taken when you're hit. They work together perfectly. It would be even better with a source of B/P/S resistance. If only Blade Ward wasn't an action...Sure does. For some reason I was thinking it was tied to loss of THP. Which suck, because then it would happen after you lost THP, which potentially would mean you'd lose them all in one hit and the counter-damage wouldn't even happen.

[Rummy]

Agreed. Starting as a fighter for your first level is enough to make them truly awesome, though: Heavy armor, Shields, Fighting style, Con Save bonus...it's intense.

Yeah... I started as a Vuman fighter with Heavy Armor Mastery. 16 Str, 16 Con, 16 Cha, 8 on all the rest.

[Regulas]

I'm convinced that people that say that Pact of the Blade is terrible have never played a Bladelock. Wow they are a blast! Someone was complaining that they are boring! We had a fight against harpies on a bridge, so I flipped on spider walk and battled the flying scourges standing on the underside of the bridge. We were attacked by a number hulk, so I flipped on darkness and saved everyone else in the party from going crazy just looking at the beast. We were attacked by a cultist spamming blade ward and I laughed as my 4th level character with the only magical weapon in the party sliced through the defenses. Bladelocks Rock.

Full disclosure: they do require precision tuning and a melee dip.

The main complaint with bladelock usually isn't that it's bad, but that it's poor design. MAD, AC issues, the need to otherwise optimise (as you noted precision tuning/multiclass), and critically: it has this all this relative to other classes that often just get more for less cost (you'll still do fine, it just cost you more effort to get there). In my own case personally it's a lot of the "forced decisions" that bother me most.

[Rummy]

The main complaint with bladelock usually isn't that it's bad, but that it's poor design. MAD, AC issues, the need to otherwise optimise (as you noted precision tuning/multiclass), and critically: it has this all this relative to other classes that often just get more for less cost (you'll still do fine, it just cost you more effort to get there). In my own case personally it's a lot of the "forced decisions" that bother me most.

I think that is my main point.... Bladelocks look bad from a design/theorycrafting/chargen angle. Where they shine is in actual play. They really Gish well.

[Socratov]

And then there's that thing called "being a team-player". Just because your character isn't getting any mechanical benefit out of taking a short rest, doesn't mean they're not going to appreciate the opportunity to grab a drink of water, have a bite of food, take a leak and lean on a wall for a bit. Adventuring is hard work in uncomfortable clothing, whilst carrying a heavy load. Not to mention how mentally and physically exhausting and dangerous a fight is. PC's are people too!
True, but mechanically it's a bit jarring, especially if you are playing with the extended rest rules (long reast is a week, short rest is a night).

Most of what bladelock actually needs is cool abilities, of which they gave it none. Right now it's just dull numbers, despite the perfect opportunity to give the warlock invocations or spells to do cool things with their pact weapon. They could have given it the ability to give enemies it hits disadvantage on saves against your spells, to let you attack as a bonus action after using fey presence, to gain double HP from dark one's blessing when you kill the creature with your pact weapon, to have entropic weapon let you counterattack...

Pact weapon, invocations and patron had the potential to combo to make some really cool things, but instead they chose to give you... +1 attack! +cha to damage! flat, boring numbers that are worse than eldritch blast! yaaaaaaaaay!
Bladelocks could certainly benefit from the agonising blast invocation, or some way to cast cantrips through attacking.

I've been playing a Bladelock for 12 levels, LifeDrinker just came online, and it's awesome. If there's a problem with the Warlock, it's not with their Pact Magic spell slots, or Short Rest recovery of spell slots, or the Blade Pact.

What I can't believe is that nobody on this thread has a problem with the Mystic Arcanum class feature. This is the worst excuse for a class feature in the game! Look at what Warlocks are stuck with for high-level spells:


One spell per level 6 thru 9, no more.
They can never be changed, ever
They can never be cast in a higher level slot
Their "slots" can never be used to upcast a lower level spell (no level 9 Armor of Agathys? Booooo!)


Seriously, a Bard can pick up Armor of Agathys using Magical Secrets, and eventually upcast it using a 9th level slot. This makes him literally better at casting Warlock spells than a Warlock, which is absolutely ridiculous. (Bad game design, WOTC, no points.)

Am I supposed to believe this is anything even close to a "full caster"? It's a pathetic joke. WOTC needs to scrap Mystic Arcanum and give Warlocks real access to high level spells!

good point.

On the topic of STR dependancy, you could always go for a true gish by picking a finesse weapon and max dex. then you can get decent AC (mage armour invocation+3 dex is 16 AC at lvl 2, 17 at lvl 4, 18 at lvl 8. then it's back to the triad of cha, dex and con as your main attributes. one hand free for casting and so on.

what is also lacking is the option to MWF with pact weapons. As written it's not clear if you can pull a set of weapons from your pocketdimension to TWF. This would certainly help.

I'd like to homebrew a melee focused patron at one point, it might be good to alleviate things. I know the lvl 14 abiltiy is going to be called Unlimited Blade Works.

[Tanarii]

I think that is my main point.... Bladelocks look bad from a design/theorycrafting/chargen angle. Where they shine is in actual play. They really Gish well.That's the same point I make whenever I see someone complaining about Bladelocks. Single class they're just fine in play, they have abilities to compensate for the lack of heavy armor. In a heavily optimized game, they require multiclassing to get HA, but most really effective builds require MC in that kind of environment.

It's the same argument I see put forward about Valor Bards and Bladesingers. People complain about MAD, but that's because they insist on having everything PLUS awesome casting. They miss the point that the sub-class abilities (Medium Armor/Shield and Bladesinging respectively) are specifically there to compensate for dumping Dex as a secondary ability score and picking up Str instead. Not to have them be max as possible so you can be a front-line melee as well as a caster.

BTW when I see GISH I think front-line melee using spells as buffs only, with no magical attack capability, although I know not everyone thinks of it that way. IMO Single-class Pactlocks, Valor Bards, and Bladesingers are not designed to be what I think of as a GISH. They're designed to be mix & match melee with spell strikers/healdebuff/artillery (respectively), who get in and out of melee range as necessary.

[Regulas]

It's the same argument I see put forward about Valor Bards and Bladesingers. People complain about MAD, but that's because they insist on having everything PLUS awesome casting.


I would just say they are clearly complaining without warrent, because Bards and Bladesingers get way way more then bladelocks do, notably neither one has any AC issues and neither one looses anything if you don't go MAD. And they both retain full spellcasting and they both don't have to sacrifice other class features(beyond the sub-class) in order to get this. I mean a bladesinger is basically just a full wizard that gets a slew of ridiculously good buffs for nothing, ironically it might be the best subclass even if you never intend to melee.

[Tanarii]

And they both retain full spellcasting and they both don't have to sacrifice other class features(beyond the sub-class) in order to get this.I think what Bladelocks give up to get their effectiveness in terms of class abilities is about the equivalent of a subclass. A Bladelock's base cost is the Pact Boon and 2-4 Eldritch Invocations. (ie both Blade invocations, and possibly you could count the False Life/Mage Armor ones too.)

[Theodoxus]

But with the addition of BB and GFB, you don't need Strength... or Dex really - to do damage. You're perfectly effective with Maximizing Cha and dumping everything else. As I noted previously, you don't even need to spend the tax on getting an extra attack. You can be the gish of your dreams - attacking with a weapon to do spell damage.

In fact, other than possibly increasing your Dex and Con for more defense, you'll open up more opportunity for feats, to pick up GWM and/or PAM, along with Spellsniper to use BB/GFB with your halberd at 10' out! (Grabbing warcaster so you can light up a fool as he moves into range is just icing.)

Those two cantrips are a godsend for bladelocks who don't want to (or aren't allowed) to MC.

[Tanarii]

BB and GFB still use Str or Dex. They do add flexibility compared to just making two attacks though, and are fantastic cantrip options for Bladelocks.

It's important to take into account that availability is table specific. And in AL means you can't use things from any other source books.

[MeeposFire]

But with the addition of BB and GFB, you don't need Strength... or Dex really - to do damage. You're perfectly effective with Maximizing Cha and dumping everything else. As I noted previously, you don't even need to spend the tax on getting an extra attack. You can be the gish of your dreams - attacking with a weapon to do spell damage.

In fact, other than possibly increasing your Dex and Con for more defense, you'll open up more opportunity for feats, to pick up GWM and/or PAM, along with Spellsniper to use BB/GFB with your halberd at 10' out! (Grabbing warcaster so you can light up a fool as he moves into range is just icing.)

Those two cantrips are a godsend for bladelocks who don't want to (or aren't allowed) to MC.

It is actually the opposite. You can potentially not care about your casting mod when using those cantrips because they either have no use to the cantrip (booming blade does not use casting stat at all) or the casting stat is not as important (greenflame blade only uses casting stat once on the secondary damage only which means that you do not have to care about it if you don't want to). On the other hand your weapon attack stat is very important because these abilities only deal damage if you hit and that makes your weapon stats very important and it also boosts your damage directly as well.


If you wanted to make a caster that had low casting stats then your go to attack should be these cantrips.

[Theodoxus]

Sorry - dimension jumped recently... Earth 488 had it as casting stat on the cantrips. My bad...