Pun Pun Approved

[DabbinPanda]

Ok so long story i might have convinced my DM to let me play Pun Pun like out in the open asked... Now i want to optimize power build it even more i play till lvl 20 and want to have a good rp on it at least i mean come on most OP build ever needs some great RP to even make the cheese work so the cheesier the better.


EDIT:
OK Guys I realize what Pun Pun is and that he is normal one second and the next with the infinite loops he is ridiculous BUT I HAVE AGREED TO NOT INFINITELY LOOP THAT UNTIL 20. He has given the ok to stop and restart the loops with no issues. This means that i dont have to break the loop i can use it on one maybe 2 stats thats it. We even talked about Stat capping me at like 100 until lvl 20 and every few levels i also gain the ability to learn a new ability score loop. Therefore I have a DM Moderated Pun Pun that isnt breaking the game that I need Good RP ideas for along with class to take.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Your DM agreed to allow you to have arbitrarily large ability scores and every ability in the game? Really?

[Draconium]

Yeah, I have the feeling your DM doesn't really know what they're getting themselves into with Pun-Pun. He can literally gain every ability in the game and get his stats high enough that he never needs more of a build beyond his first level, as I understand it.

[AvatarVecna]

DMing a game with Pun-Pun in it is like refereeing a game of Calvinball. When all numbers are arbitrarily high, and can be made even higher on a whim, and new abilities (including abilities that don't exist in-game) can just be made up on the spot to solve your dilemma-of-the-day, the exact stats of both your character and the enemies ceases really mattering, and depends more on your personality.

So...what kind of character do you want to play, personality-/backstory-/outlook-on-life-wise? Because it's basically up to you, since you don't have to worry about not being capable of whatever skills your backstory says you are capable of, since you're capable of anything and everything.

EDIT: A bit more to the point, there's not really much of a game to play when you play as Pun-Pun. Your enemies will drown in a sea of ants that rises as high as the moon, villages being pillaged are teleported part and parcel into another planet in another dimension (where everything is exactly the same except that no pillaging is taking place), half the population is arbitrarily granted 1 million XP and 1 billion gold while the other half is sacrificed at the alter of Pun-Pun.

[frogglesmash]

If you want to optimize Pun Pun even further your only real option is to make an omnificer instead. It's not Pun Pun, but it's the only thing that is potentially more powerful than Pun Pun.

[DabbinPanda]

Well guys that's the thing i want to make him A Utopian City builder. The main reason he is allowing it is because its frontier type area so the fact i wanted to rp a toon that could build his world. So A friendly down to earth hippy pun pun. Also maybe applying template cheese?

[frogglesmash]

I'm not sure you fully understand what Pun Pun is capable of. Pun Pun is the theoretical pinnacle of d&d optimization. What this means is that he can do anything and everything. This also means that any further optimization/cheese is entirely pointless because there's is no ability, or stat improvement, existing, or otherwise that Pun Pun does not have access to.

[DabbinPanda]

No thats the point i agreed to not pun pun the **** outa it but keep it to a reasonable point until lvl 20 when i can explode and go infinite and will rise into the sky to become a god. He has agreed to let it happen because I gave him the outs and agreed to not completely break all aspects of the game.... Basically playing a sub par pun pun yes i know but twas the cheese i was allowed and also needed that Utopian build idea to even have him agree to the fact that he expects rediculous RP.

[DabbinPanda]

In all the reading of pun pun ive done I never came across anything that says he gets all the templates as well? it was more for flavor and rp than the stats it gives... I am pun pun i have the abilities beyond that of gods.

[AnachroNinja]

Gonna have to add to the crowd. DnD is already basically a more structured group version of Let's Pretend. Playing as punpun just removes the structure. You might as well gather everyone around a fire and just tell stories about all the awesome things you would do if you were Superman crossed with Dr Manhattan.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you want to optimize Pun Pun even further your only real option is to make an omnificer instead. It's not Pun Pun, but it's the only thing that is potentially more powerful than Pun Pun.
Pun-Pun, in His more recent Incarnations, does Use the Omnificer trick As well.


Well guys that's the thing i want to make him A Utopian City builder. The main reason he is allowing it is because its frontier type area so the fact i wanted to rp a toon that could build his world. So A friendly down to earth hippy pun pun. Also maybe applying template cheese?
I think you're not fully understanding what Pun-Pun is, and what he does, and what cheese has to do with it. Pun-Pun ate the cheese. There is no more cheese. The cheese is Pun-Pun, and Pun-Pun is the cheese. Adding more cheese to all cheese does not make all cheese even cheesier.

In more reasonable words: if you apply the most powerful template (I think it's Kaiju, which - amongst other things - straight-up adds 40 HD to the creature), Pun-Pun does not get measurably stronger, because Pun-Pun was already any - usually high - number of times more powerful than anything that is not Pun-Pun, that is, everything else. There is no 'template-cheese' to be had with Pun-Pun. Pun-Pun already has all abilities granted by all templates, except the bad ones, and then all the abilities not granted by templates, except the bad ones, and then all the abilities not granted at all (allowing for a broad interpretation of Manipulate Form), once again, not including the bad ones.

The reason is pretty simple: some - very rare - abilities allow you to do 'anything', and Pun-Pun has one, from level 1.

[EyethatBinds]

In all the reading of pun pun ive done I never came across anything that says he gets all the templates as well? it was more for flavor and rp than the stats it gives... I am pun pun i have the abilities beyond that of gods.

So you're not playing Pun-Pun, since that specifically requires having the class ability Manipulate Form, which breaks the game.

I've allowed people to play with the explicit statement of them attempting to make Pun-Pun through various means before. As DM I then just laugh and tell them that we're not playing Forgotten Realms and any splatbooks from those must be approved prior to character creation.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Pun-Pun isn't a general category or type of thing, it's a very specific build: a Kobold with a familiar abusing the ludicrously open-ended Manipulate Form ability to make up new powers and give them to himself. He isn't really a character with abilities. Pun-pun has no stats, no numbers, no abilities, just the word "yes." Your character sheet is just a sheet of paper that says "I can do what I want (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzEOHNmfa_0&t=0m7s)." Pun-Pun is the very top tier of theoretical optimization. Stuff at that level isn't playable, isn't meant to be playable. The game doesn't even remotely support that level of play, even when the build isn't honed to a laser-like focus.

What you want, I think, is one step down. You want something like the Prismatic Princess-- an actual build with enough power to sweep away most foes, but not so much that the system itself breaks down. In that vein, since you want to play a character who will eventually reach godlike power, and uplift a sizeable chunk of the world into utopia as he goes, how about a straight Artificer with heavy use of crafting cheese? You can do all sorts of magitech cheese, build armies of golems and feed cities with self-resetting traps of Create Food and Water, and all that jazz.

[DabbinPanda]

I guess i could just slap the labels there then for the templates. And the Cheese is pun pun and pun pun is the cheese has to be the best way to describe this I'm looking at putting hot sauce on this i want the role-play that goes with this much power and that where i need the help we all realize how stat powerful he is so trying to build a backstory as to why he wanted that and couple it with 16 more levels of something that I will way overly excel in because until 20 I have promised to not be ridiculous with him until 20

[DabbinPanda]

So more generally, you want to play a character who will eventually reach godlike power, and uplift a sizeable chunk of the world into utopia as he goes? How about a straight Artificer with heavy use of crafting/xp gathering cheese?
Yes exactly but because I am Pun pun I have access to way more than I can even Fathom which is how i ended up here for help.Pun Pun Is a Stat Redonkulous guy but I need to Figure out what to actually write down to efficiently do this without a ton of "Unneeded" filler.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The most efficient method is simply to grant yourself the alter reality divine salient ability. Then you can simply change the situation, whatever that situation may be, so that you win.

[137beth]

The most efficient method is simply to grant yourself the alter reality divine salient ability. Then you can simply change the situation, whatever that situation may be, so that you win.

Way more efficient would be to grant yourself the "win" ability, which is just like Alter Reality but let's you win without going through all the trouble of having to alter reality first.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Way more efficient would be to grant yourself the "win" ability, which is just like Alter Reality but let's you win without going through all the trouble of having to alter reality first.

Alter reality has the advantage of actually being printed in a book. Even by the strict reading of manipulate form, it's available.

[Beheld]

Alter reality has the advantage of actually being printed in a book. Even by the strict reading of manipulate form, it's available.

By the strict reading of Manipulate Form, it can't do anything at all because it's undefined. By the incredibly liberal interpretation necessary for Pun-Pun to exist at all, you can give yourself "win".

There is literally zero part of the Manipulate Form ability that in any way limits you to things that are already written down.

[nyjastul69]

Yes exactly but because I am Pun pun I have access to way more than I can even Fathom which is how i ended up here for help.Pun Pun Is a Stat Redonkulous guy but I need to Figure out what to actually write down to efficiently do this without a ton of "Unneeded" filler.

One doesn't write down Pun Pun numbers. There is no point to numbers when near infinite loops are involved. Just say you win and start over with something reasonable.

[Telonius]

Here's how I imagine the first session going.

DM: Okay, there you go. I have my character sheet ready, the screen is right there, books are on the shelves.

[Heliomance]

Ok so long story i might have convinced my DM to let me play Pun Pun like out in the open asked... Now i want to optimize power build it even more i play till lvl 20 and want to have a good rp on it at least i mean come on most OP build ever needs some great RP to even make the cheese work so the cheesier the better.

If you're playing Pun Pun, you have reached the end of cheese. For you, there is no more cheese.

When frogglesmash says that Pun Pun is the theoretical pinnacle of D&D optimisation, he doesn't mean that in the sense of "Yeah, well, theoretically it's the most powerful build, but actually...", he means it in the strong scientific sense. D&D optimisation is a solved problem. Pun Pun is the single most powerful build it is possible to make. There will never be a stronger build. The ultimate answer to "How do I do X?" for all X, is Pun Pun. There is no "optimize power build it even more". There is nothing that can be added. Anything you think you could add? Pun Pun already has it. Pun Pun is literally omnipotent. If you find a new beneficial ability, Pun Pun already has it. If you invent a new spell, Pun Pun can learn it. If you find an exploit that grants you infinite stats, Pun Pun can do it more easily than you can, and probably already has. If you think you can kill Pun Pun, your parents never met. Template cheese cannot make Pun Pun stronger - he already has all the benefits they would give.

Pun Pun does not have a fixed character sheet, he can just succeed at anything he tries. There is no conflict. There is no journey. There is no hardship. There is no story. You just win. And generally, winning ends the game.

[Segev]

If you're a Star Trek fan, imagine Pun-Pun as Q, without a continuum to look over his shoulder. Q is only ever "defeated" because he lets himself be; he sets rules and chooses to accept when the crew doesn't lose while playing by them.

If you're a fan of MLP:FiM, imagine Pun-Pun as Discord, but with the ability to retro-actively make Princess Celestia, Princess Luna, the main characters, and their Elements of Harmony never have existed and/or unable to affect him due to specific defect and always have been totally loyal to him. Without an author on board to make a plucky Jade Chan-like character to thwart him.

Pun-Pun will literally do whatever you want, at any level of reality-warping. Just narrate his success.

[icefractal]

Ok so long story i might have convinced my DM to let me play Pun Pun like out in the open asked... Now i want to optimize power build it even more i play till lvl 20 and want to have a good rp on it at least i mean come on most OP build ever needs some great RP to even make the cheese work so the cheesier the better.There's your first issue - Pun-Pun doesn't go 1-20. Some builds start out normal and gradually build up more power over time until they go nuts - Pun-Pun doesn't; even with the slow entry method, you go straight from "normal Kobold Psion" to "can do anything with trivial ease" like flipping a light switch.

My advice, if you want a character that eventually reaches obscene amounts of power, but actually has a journey getting there, is to be any acquisitive caster type (Wizard, Artificer, StP Erudite, Archivist) and just make freely with the cheese. Abuse Simulacrum once you get it. Abuse Genesis once you get that. Make Spell Clocks and build the Tippyverse. Hunting down combo pieces and building an infrastructure should provide some gameplay along the path to NI-town.

Be aware that once you reach infinite loop territory, further levels are somewhat meaningless, so if you go infinite-Wish-engine with Planar Binding, there's no point in levels 12-20. If I was doing this, I think I'd make my goal to reach the craziest amount of power that didn't utilize any NI-loops.

[DabbinPanda]

Ok so after going over this forum with my DM we have both agreed to just shelf the idea maybe for a rainy day but still. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO COMMENTED AND HELPED ME REACH THIS CONCLUSION.:smallsmile:

[Inevitability]

Ok so after going over this forum with my DM we have both agreed to just shelf the idea maybe for a rainy day but still. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO COMMENTED AND HELPED ME REACH THIS CONCLUSION.:smallsmile:

You imply you still consider Pun Pun a possible character, just not for now. This fills me with dread.

[Segev]

Ultimately, if you play Pun-Pun...

You're playing an omnipotent reality warper. This can be fun for a lark, but be aware that you're literally playing a "second DM" who can, to a great extent, overrule the actual one.

I'm not exaggerating.

Pun-Pun is the entire Q continuum. In one being. Literally anything you want to do, you just say it happens, and it does. Retroactively, if needs be.