Best Effects for Metamagic?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Let's say that you are in a Tippy-style game where massive amounts of optimization are not just expected, but required.

Let's also say that you are an ardent with the Mind's Eye ACFs (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) substitute powers and dominant ideal, allowing you to choose one of your mantles that you can stack any number of metapsionic feats onto as long as you can afford the pp costs (with each metapsionic feat costing 2 pp less), and you can change out the powers in your mantles to whatever you want, so long as they're "thematic" to the mantles.

Now, assume three things: 1.) Just about any metamagic feat is convertable to a metapsionic feat by requiring the expenditure of psionic focus and converting spell level adjustment to +pp by doubling the level adjustment and subtracting two to get its cost in power points. So (spell LA x 2) - 2, plus focus expenditure. 2.) Since nowhere in the rules (anywhere!) does it say that you can only apply a metapsionic feat once, you can apply a metapsionic feat as many times as you're allowed through your expenditure of psionic foci and pp costs. 3.) Since divine spells can be converted to arcane spells easily via various means (wyrm wizard, rainbow servant, various dragon types and archetypes, etc), and any arcane spell can be converted to a psionic power via the StP erudite, any divine or arcane spell is available as a psionic power if you know how to get it.

This ardent is going to take the magic mantle, meaning anything "magic" fits in with the mantle. Knowing that, along with the above assumptions, what would be the best spells and powers to stack lots and lots of metamagic/metapsionics onto, and (just as importantly) why?

For instance, if I took Empower Power as a feat, the cost of the feat for any magic mantle power is now +0 due to the dominant ideal, and it doesn't require focus expenditure. Since metapsionic feats are (RAW) repeatedly stackable as long as one can afford the focus and pp costs, now I can infini-Empower any power with a variable, numeric component. So having magic missile as my level 1 power allows me to spend 1 pp to hurl one missile at an enemy and Empower it, say, 100 billion times for no extra cost, dealing (1d4+1)x150 billion. Essentially, insta-death to anything not immune to death by force damage and without enough SR to block it.

That means anything with a die to roll for damage or healing or whatever now gets +infinity if it hits. And that's just for Empower. There're all sorts of other stackable feats out there, such as Linked Power, Widen, and Enlarge (and others that we shouldn't bother stacking more than once, such as Quicken and Burrowing).

So what feats should I look into, besides Linked, Empower, Enlarge, and Widen? What ten powers and spells should I exchange for my ten available magic mantle powers? Which ones work the best with multiple feats stacking together, both multiple stackings of one feat and different ones added on top of each other?

[Extra Anchovies]

I have to disagree with the basic premise here. It seems to be true that a zero-cost, no-focus-expenditure metapsionic feat can be applied to a power more than once, but I don't think they necessarily have stacking effects.


You can alter a power with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged power with a range of close has a range of 50 feet + 5 feet per level, a medium-range power has a range of 200 feet + 20 feet per level, and a long-range power has a range of 800 feet + 80 feet per level. Powers whose ranges are not defined by distance, as well as powers whose ranges are not close, medium, or long, are not affected.
Second sentence's specific cases overrides the first sentence's general rule, so the ranges are fixed at the listed values regardless of how many times the feat is applied.


You can empower a power. All variable, numeric effects of an empowered power are increased by one-half. An empowered power deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, and so forth, as appropriate. Augmented powers can also be empowered (multiply 1-1/2 times the damage total of the augmented power). Saving throws and opposed checks (such as the one you make when you manifest dispel psionics) are not affected, nor are powers without random variables.
Normal damage for magic missile is 1d4+1, so "half again as much damage as normal" is (1d4+1)*1.5. Applying the feat multiple times does not have any effect, because the magic missile is already dealing half again as much damage as normal.


You can manifest an extended power. An extended power lasts twice as long as normal. A power with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat.
The numerical value of "twice as long as normal" doesn't change with the second and subsequent applications of the feat, because "normal" duration is the duration listed in the text of the power prior to any modifications from other sources (e.g. metapsionic feats).


You can split psionic rays you manifest. The split ray affects any two targets that are both within the power’s range and within 30 feet of each other. If the ray deals damage, each target takes as much damage as a single target would take.
Two targets is two targets. If it said "an additional target", self-stacking would produce a number of rays up to the number of valid targets, but that is not the case.

Linked Power I'm really not sure about. Dominant Ideal's PP cost reduction might not apply to this feat, because it can't reduce base power costs and the cost increase here is equal to the base power cost of the linked power. A lot of the feat's wording is also pretty heavily dependent on there just being two powers. Personally I'd rule that it doesn't work, because two powers is two powers (same reason as Split Psionic Ray).


This metapsionic alteration can be used with any power that targets a single individual and requires a saving throw to avoid some or all of the power's effect. If the subject fails its saving throw to avoid the phrenic leeching power's effect, it loses 1d6 power points. You gain 1 power point from the drain. If you already possess full power points, the power points drained from the target are lost.

Aha! Here we go. Good to know at least something works with this trick.


You can alter a stygian power that deals negative levels to toes so that any living creature that gains a negative level as a result of the power also becomes shaken for 1 minute. The target of a stygian power can attempt a Will save at the power's save DC (even if it doesn't normally allow a save) to resist this effect. This is a mind-affecting fear ability. Creatures immune to fear are not immune to the primary effect of the power, but they are immune to the shaken effect.

Another one that can self-stack - just pick a number of applications high enough that they'll eventually fail one of the Will saves. Shame there aren't any powers that deal negative levels to toes :smalltongue:

Those are the only two metapsionic feats from XPH and CPsi that cost 2 or less and can self-stack, and they're not terribly useful. There might be metapsionic feats in other sources, though. The ones that add secondary riders seem to be more likely to self-stack than the ones that modify the power directly.

[Deophaun]

Normal damage for magic missile is 1d4+1, so "half again as much damage as normal" is (1d4+1)*1.5. Applying the feat multiple times does not have any effect, because the magic missile is already dealing half again as much damage as normal.
Nope. That should work fine. If it said "deals one and a half the amount of normal damage," you would be right. But "half again as much damage as normal" makes this simple addition. Applying it three tims will deal 250% the amount of normal damage.

[Extra Anchovies]

Nope. That should work fine. If it said "deals one and a half the amount of normal damage," you would be right. But "half again as much damage as normal" makes this simple addition. Applying it three tims will deal 250% the amount of normal damage.

Hm. You might be right, but there's definitely some ambiguity. It depends on the exact meaning of the phrase "half again as much" - namely, whether it means [add 50%] or [multiply by 1.5]. There's definitely a case to be made for either, so I'd say it's probably self-stacking by RAW but you'd definitely want to ask your DM before trying this in an actual game, even one where arbitrarily high damage numbers are expected by level 10.

Are there any metamagic feats in sources other than XPH and CPsi? It would be a little disappointing if only Empower, Phrenic Leech, and Stygian worked with this loophole, because it's definitely a clever one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Are there any metamagic feats in sources other than XPH and CPsi? It would be a little disappointing if only Empower, Phrenic Leech, and Stygian worked with this loophole, because it's definitely a clever one.Remember, this isn't just metapsionic feats. For the purposes of this thread, metamagic feats can be converted into metapsionics using your psionic focus plus the following spell-slot-to-power-point conversion of (spell LA x 2) - 2 pp. Everything from Heighten Spell to Explosive Spell is applicable here, even Still and Silent (due to spells converted to powers retaining their component requirements).

I'm thinking infin-Empowered magic missile is the best 1st level spell, due to basically being an instakill spell at double Medium range to up to 5 creatures that don't have SR or a (lesser) globe of invulnerability or a shield spell up. Or, like, a rod of absorption or something.

How about awaken? Get yourself nigh infinite mental stats via -- what else? -- Empowering it. Use metamorphosis to qualify.

Would maw of chaos, wings of flurry, and tornado blast be worthwhile, with everything else out there?

[icefractal]

I think that Linked Power is the way to go, by a very large margin. All Empower gets you is NI damage, but you still have to hit them. Linked Power lets you use every 1st level power you have (and 2nd level ones, if you take Metapower), an arbitrary number of times. Which means, among other things, that anything within Close range (with less than Hardness 24) is dead, if you want it to be. For 1 PP.

It does have that delay though. That's a considerable disadvantage, but I still think it's worth it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I think that Linked Power is the way to go, by a very large margin. All Empower gets you is NI damage, but you still have to hit them. Linked Power lets you use every 1st level power you have (and 2nd level ones, if you take Metapower), an arbitrary number of times. Which means, among other things, that anything within Close range (with less than Hardness 24) is dead, if you want it to be. For 1 PP.

It does have that delay though. That's a considerable disadvantage, but I still think it's worth it.Synchronicity?

[Troacctid]

Remember, this isn't just metapsionic feats. For the purposes of this thread, metamagic feats can be converted into metapsionics using your psionic focus plus the following spell-slot-to-power-point conversion of (spell LA x 2) - 2 pp. Everything from Heighten Spell to Explosive Spell is applicable here, even Still and Silent (due to spells converted to powers retaining their component requirements).

How is this happening? It's not a normal effect of the Magic Mantle, and I'm not aware of any RAW option that lets you do it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How is this happening? It's not a normal effect of the Magic Mantle, and I'm not aware of any RAW option that lets you do it.This is how:


Let's say that you are in a Tippy-style game where massive amounts of optimization are not just expected, but required.Houserules, basically.

[ben-zayb]

Would multiple instances of Fell Drain or Fell Frighten stack this way?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I was thinking about using tornado blast for a good option for the level 9 slot, because the only ways to resist it are A.) regeneration, B.) evasion and a super-high touch AC, C.) using contingency and the like to skive out of the area just prior to it going off, and D.) being incorporeal.

I had considered using time stop for another level 9, but shades would be a better option, because not only does it allow you to use the metamagic shenanigans on a wide variety of emulated spells (thereby making up for the unfortunate side-effect of the emulated spells giving enemies more ways to avoid it), but it can also be used to emulate a superior version of time stop -- Sanctum Spell on shades to emulate a Sanctum Spell (level 8) arcane genesis for a fast time demiplane. If you use either the acorn of far travel or rebuild your body to become a denizen of that demiplane so you can cast planar bubble to get the fast time trait wherever you go. If the fast time is fast enough, you might as well be time stopped, except it allows you to interact with the world (which time stop doesn't allow you to do).

I don't think maw of chaos or wings of flurry would work here. Those two are, in part, good blasting spells because they deal uncapped damage, which is no longer much of a benefit (and WoF also dazes, which is nice).

I have a level 1, 1-5 target, mostly unresistable spell in magic missile, a level 9 touch attack/Reflex AoE combo with tornado blast, and all the spells that a metamagicked level 9 shades can emulate. So that's my 1/9/9 slots taken up, though I'm willing to listen to further suggestions to replace those.

Should I even bother to consider awaken? It's incredibly abusive, but it won't be usable very often, and getting a Maximize and numerous Empowers on a psionic version of awaken is already quite doable.

What else?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I took a look at the force missile spell, and it's considerably better than magic missile due to number of targets, range, the fact that it can target unattended objects, and it deals AoE damage around those you target with it. Empower hard enough, and that becomes a death zone for anything around where you hit.

Though I could take greater shadow evocation and emulate force missiles and any other lower level Evocation spell I want; the same goes for shades and creation/summoning spells. Since the major drawback for greater shadow evocation is that it has an additional Will save for reduced damage on damaging effects, metamagicking it to Tartarus and back will negate that problem for any damaging effect. Nondamaging effects are a bit less fun, but most of those probably won't need much metamagic anyway.

I suppose mass cure light wounds could replenish all HP to all creatures in its AoE, and it would be a nigh guaranteed kill for any undead (or Tomb Tainted Souls) in the area. Thing is, mass heal has a similar area and is almost as likely to work just as well when it does hit, and it affects any number of creatures in the area. Though mclw would be available from a lower level (not that that matters when you start higher up, of course).

[daremetoidareyo]

Locate city bomb?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Locate city bomb?Locate city is, unfortunately, not very useful for that combo; a circle is two-dimensional, and so the farthest any creature is going to be shunted is a mere 5' (unless the creature is very large and the circle is positioned properly); furthermore, the bomb doesn't do anything to objects and structures beyond coating them in ice. What you really want is a Widened permanencied detect magic bomb. Concentrating while you run around constantly blowing enemies up and mowing them down as they repeatedly enter the spell's AoE is really nasty.

Speaking of, detect psionics would be pretty fantastic for that reason if it wasn't for synchronicity...

[daremetoidareyo]

Locate city is, unfortunately, not very useful for that combo; a circle is two-dimensional, and so the farthest any creature is going to be shunted is a mere 5' (unless the creature is very large and the circle is positioned properly); furthermore, the bomb doesn't do anything to objects and structures beyond coating them in ice. What you really want is a Widened permanencied detect magic bomb. Concentrating while you run around constantly blowing enemies up and mowing them down as they repeatedly enter the spell's AoE is really nasty.

Speaking of, detect psionics would be pretty fantastic for that reason if it wasn't for synchronicity...

I was just making sure that the playgrounds premier optimizing minds hadn't overlooked the constituent theorycraft of the locate city bomb type. Apparently, everything is in good hands.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I've revamped my list of the best effects from 1-9 that I could find without a really deep dig, and now it looks like this:

Lvl 1. Synchronicity - For XTREEM action economy abuse via Quicken, Linked, and Twin.

Lvl 2. Swarm of crystals - For what amounts to an auto-kill effect unless whoever is caught in the AoE is immune to death from damage, has regeneration, or is immune to slashing damage. Its only real drawback is that you can't expand the 15' range; if you could, Sculpt Spell/Power would be fantastic with this.

Lvl 3. Energy wall - It works with a lot of different metamagic feats, and Empowering it enough turns it into a long-term wall o' death. But see below.

Lvl 4. Energy ball - Okay on its own, but it absolutely shines with Sculpt Spell/Power. Energy ball retains its Long range, even when Sculpted, and so it can emulate flame strike, energy bolt, energy cone, and (of course) itself. If you add Selective Spell, you can even drop it on yourself and emulate energy burst. However, the effect is even better for most of the spells and powers above, as a Sculpted energy ball remains a spread effect, meaning it ignores cover in ways that non-spreads do not. And since it retains its Long range, you can Enlarge and Widen to your heart's content, and if you add in Metapower (energy ball + Widen Power), it has the potential to turn into the equivalent of an Explosive Spell'd locate city bomb that actually works.

Lvl 5. (???) - I haven't figured this one out, yet.

Lvl 6. Greater glyph of warding - The explosive glyph is handy for setting an instakill trap wherever you want it. I was considering explosive runes, but the GGoW has tons more utility and versatility. If you use metamagic on a GGoW, does that affect any spell stored in it? Probably not, but a man can dream.

Lvl 7. Planar bubble - Really, only a few metamagic feats are usable on this spell, the most common of which is Widen, but with additional cost reduction, Widen allows you to extend the bubble's effects over the entire city/continent/planet you're residing on. Combine with Burrowing Power to make boundaries a non-issue. If you're a resident of the Outlands (or can make yourself such), you can make the planar bubble take on the planar effects available anywhere in the Outlands, including the dead magic trait near the Spire -- which nullifies even the gods' magic. Use Selective Spell or an acorn of far travel spell to make yourself immune, and congratulations on becoming a potential godslayer. Or turn off the entire plane's magic so you can destroy spellcasters whenever you want.

Lvl 8. Greater shadow evocation - Now you can infinite-metamagic every evocation spell of 7th level or below (or 8th, with Sanctum Spell).

Lvl 9. Miracle - Look above at what's in the level 8 slot. Look below at what's in the other level 9 slot. Now look at the description of miracle. Seeing any patterns, yet? And that's only barely scraping the surface.

Lvl 9. Shades - Now you can infinite-metamagic many of the very best conjuration spells of 8th level or below (or 9th, with Sanctum Spell).

So, now that that's out of the way (except for level 5; I'm working on it), how would energy wall interact with Sculpt Spell, exactly? Is the 2d6+1/ML portion the Sculpted shape, with the emanations extending out from it? I mean, I can infinitely Empower it to insta-death levels anyway, so it doesn't really matter, but how would that work without Empowering it?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Lvl 7. Planar bubble - Really, only a few metamagic feats are usable on this spell, the most common of which is Widen, but with additional cost reduction, Widen allows you to extend the bubble's effects over the entire city/continent/planet you're residing on. Combine with Burrowing Power to make boundaries a non-issue. If you're a resident of the Outlands (or can make yourself such), you can make the planar bubble take on the planar effects available anywhere in the Outlands, including the dead magic trait near the Spire -- which nullifies even the gods' magic. Use Selective Spell or an acorn of far travel spell to make yourself immune, and congratulations on becoming a potential godslayer. Or turn off the entire plane's magic so you can destroy spellcasters whenever you want....Huh. I just figured out how to turn off an entire plane's magic/time/gravity/etc traits at will. Neat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Alrighty. So I swapped out my level 5 power slot for a level 2 powerized spell close wounds. Normally, I wouldn't bother with a healing spell, since heal and mass heal are pretty much all the healing you could need, but an unlimited Empowered close wounds is an immediate action, and it can explicitly interrupt a character's death from hp damage by restoring it from -10 (and dead) to alive and stable -- or even awake and ready to go, if it somehow heals enough. So if another party member gets whacked and dies, I can mega-Empower close wounds as an immediate action and bring him back to full health with no problems at all.

Sounds worthwhile, especially since resurrection magic tends to be expensive.