Early entry shenanigans, because why not?

[Nashira]

So, I'm curious here, I'm wondering what builds people can make that have no base classes.

Here are the terms of this nonsense:

Level adjustment buy off is a thing, level adjustment is limited to +3 before buy off.

Drag mag/ua is fine if it fits "the rule of cool" but don't go overboard.

No racial paragon type prc's, no base classes.

Items/spells do not count for prerequisites.

Builds have to be 20 levels.

Other than that do as you please. I'm mostly just curious what builds people can come up with. Oh, and this is for 3.5.

[Heliomance]

Divine Minion to get you into Master of Many Forms at level 1? That's the only PrC I know of that you can get into that fast.

[prufock]

Divine Minion to get you into Master of Many Forms at level 1? That's the only PrC I know of that you can get into that fast.
Assuming Fast Wild Shape = Wild Shape for entry, where do you get the 2 necessary feats without a class level?

[Heliomance]

Assuming Fast Wild Shape = Wild Shape for entry, where do you get the 2 necessary feats without a class level?

Flaws maybe? Elf weapon proficiencies plus DCFS?

[prufock]

Flaws maybe? Elf weapon proficiencies plus DCFS?
The issue I see is that you have to qualify for the level you're taking before you take it. Things you gain at character level 1 don't allow you to qualify at level 1, unless you had racial bonus feat. So Anyclass 1/MoMF 1 can work, but I don't think you can get in AT level 1.

[Heliomance]

The issue I see is that you have to qualify for the level you're taking before you take it. Things you gain at character level 1 don't allow you to qualify at level 1, unless you had racial bonus feat. So Anyclass 1/MoMF 1 can work, but I don't think you can get in AT level 1.

Elf weapon proficiencies are racial bonus feats. Apply DCFS (parents paid for it) to swap them out for the prereqs.

[Bronk]

The issue I see is that you have to qualify for the level you're taking before you take it. Things you gain at character level 1 don't allow you to qualify at level 1, unless you had racial bonus feat. So Anyclass 1/MoMF 1 can work, but I don't think you can get in AT level 1.

True. One variable that hasn't been constrained in the opening post (so far) is race. Maybe there are some PRCs that can be entered with only racial levels?

[Necroticplague]

Assuming Fast Wild Shape = Wild Shape for entry, where do you get the 2 necessary feats without a class level?
Gheden Human. Gain Endurance from Gheden, use Human to pick up Alertness.

Also, fast wild shape isn't wild shape itself, but it does give you it.

A divine minion can wild shape as an 11th-level druid.....
So while Fast Wild Shape itself doesn't qualify, the Wild Shape it gives you does.

[dextercorvia]

Gloura have 7HD and 2LA which can be bought off after class level 6 and 9 (though at a fairly steep XP cost of 14,000 and 16,000).

So, a Gloura Virtuoso3/Sublime Chord2/Virtuoso+7/X+1 would work for your challenge.

where X is any PrC that is full casting at 1st level.

[Venger]

assuming you don't roll a monster or use a +LA template, there is only one prc you can enter at 1.

if you're a human with 1 flaw (or something else with 2 flaws) you can enter forsaker at 1 without any base classes. the remaining 10 levels can be whatever.

[daremetoidareyo]

The dead flaw for a commoner 1 might allow a segue for some prestige classes.

[Venger]

The dead flaw for a commoner 1 might allow a segue for some prestige classes.

risen martyr comes to mind

[prufock]

Elf weapon proficiencies are racial bonus feats. Apply DCFS (parents paid for it) to swap them out for the prereqs.
So you start with a celestial elf mulhondri divine minion child with 1 racial hit die, DCFS to trade out the 2 feats you need (from parents' wealth), then replace your racial hit die with MoMF 1? I don't think this works, because celestial and mulhondri divine minion change your type from humanoid, so the "replace 1 racial HD with class level" trick doesn't work.


Gheden Human. Gain Endurance from Gheden, use Human to pick up Alertness.
I guess this is the same concept as above, but again, MDM changes your type, so the first racial can't be replaced with the class level. Minimum I can figure is Anything 1/MoMF 1. Plus you're at +4 LA now, so really you're in at ECL 6, the same point that you would get in just from class levels.

It's still early, just not AS early. Unless there's something I'm missing.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Non-humanoids still replace their first racial hit die with a class level, so if that's the only objection you have, the trick works.

[Zaq]

I made an Iron Chef entry (Cocus Ferrea, in the Thief of Life round) with exactly 1 base class level (no racial paragon classes or LA/RHD, just 1 level of Rogue and 19 levels of PrCs), which isn't 100% what you wanted, but it's awfully close.

If you're okay with some RHD, Marrulurk (Sandstorm) get +2d6 Sneak Attack (and Death Attack, if you care) without any class levels, so that might be able to get you into some PrCs. (Like, say, Thief of Life, if you can find a way to get Heal and K: Arcana as class skills on Marrulurk RHD.)

We all know a Commoner can get into Survivor as Commoner 1 / Survivor X; is it possible to start with a Humanoid HD and then swap the Humanoid HD for Survivor? With no BAB and no casting, Survivor won't help you qualify for too many other PrCs, but it will let you get skill points, so you can start aiming for PrCs that only have skills as the prereq.

[daremetoidareyo]

I made an Iron Chef entry (Cocus Ferrea, in the Thief of Life round) with exactly 1 base class level (no racial paragon classes or LA/RHD, just 1 level of Rogue and 19 levels of PrCs), which isn't 100% what you wanted, but it's awfully close.

If you're okay with some RHD, Marrulurk (Sandstorm) get +2d6 Sneak Attack (and Death Attack, if you care) without any class levels, so that might be able to get you into some PrCs. (Like, say, Thief of Life, if you can find a way to get Heal and K: Arcana as class skills on Marrulurk RHD.)

We all know a Commoner can get into Survivor as Commoner 1 / Survivor X; is it possible to start with a Humanoid HD and then swap the Humanoid HD for Survivor? With no BAB and no casting, Survivor won't help you qualify for too many other PrCs, but it will let you get skill points, so you can start aiming for PrCs that only have skills as the prereq.
Should work but you have to find a stat block with terrible saves/ bab.

[Extra Anchovies]

Magical Training + Precocious Apprentice + Heighten Spell + Sanctum Spell can get you into Knight of the Weave. It does require to be a human with two flaws or an elf with access to the dark chaos feat shuffle, though. KotW doesn't grant weapon or armor proficiency, but it also doesn't have a weapon/armor proficiency entry at all - so a humanoid with levels in Knight of the Weave and no other classes gets proficiency with simple weapons. After you take your first KotW level you don't need Magical Training or Precocious Apprentice, because Heighten + Sanctum + KotW casting lets you continue to qualify, so you can retrain those two feats into Light Armor Proficiency and Militia.

Knight of the Weave 4/Ruathar 3/Dragonslayer 1/Abjurant Champion 2 is a nice start to a gish with +8 BAB, 6th-level spells, and proficiency with all armor and shields (even tower shields); after the Dragonslayer level you can retrain Militia and Light Armor Proficiency into other stuff. Maybe finish the build off with Suel Arcanamach 3/AbjChamp +3/Spellsword 1/Suel Arcanamach +3, for 16 BAB, a solid arrangement of spells (nothing above 6th level, but enough slots to make Arcane Strike worthwhile and access to the Sor/Wiz list), and a nice pile of gishy abilities?

[Necroticplague]

I guess this is the same concept as above, but again, MDM changes your type, so the first racial can't be replaced with the class level. Minimum I can figure is Anything 1/MoMF 1. Plus you're at +4 LA now, so really you're in at ECL 6, the same point that you would get in just from class levels.

It's still early, just not AS early. Unless there's something I'm missing.

At no point am I replacing HD with class level. My race is "MDM Gheden Human". This race doesn't have any RHD. I replace nothing, I simply lack them in the first place.

Also, LA+4? I think you're confused. Gheden and MDM are both +1. So it's LA +2 (thus ECL 3 when starting).Also, the purpose of this thread wasn't early entry (despite the name), the challenge was to have a build with no base class levels. Even if it's delayed a bit, it still meets those qualifications.

Also, non-humanoids can replace their first RHD if they only have one. The relevant section may be under the 'humanoids and class levels', but the actual rule only specifies 'creatures with 1 or less HD'.

[Zaq]

Hmm. If we aren't doing shenanigans with replacing HD (or just straight up including RHD), we may have difficulty getting into any PrCs that require feats, thanks to a technicality of the way the rules are written.

DMG pg. 176, when describing how PrCs work, says this: "The rules for level advancement (see pg. 58 of the Player's Handbook) apply to this system, meaning the first step of advancement is always choosing a class. If a character does not meet the requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class."

When you're making a normal character at level 1 (taking a normal base class), there's more flexibility in when you pick feats (and so on) compared to when you're advancing a level after level 1. (At character creation at level 1, pg. 6 of the PHB says you can "feel free to look ahead or to backtrack and do something over if you need to.")

When you're advancing, though, you use pg. 58 of the PHB, and that specifies the order in which you pick things like class and feats (namely, class goes first). Since DMG pg. 176 explicitly says that we use these rules for PrCs and explicitly says that the first step is always choosing a class, we can't choose a PrC that requires feats, because we haven't chosen feats yet when we choose the class, and we are explicitly told that we have to meet the prereqs "before that first step."

I mean, that does require a very technical parsing of the RAW, so I imagine many GMs would let you get away with it (assuming they're going to let you get away with jumping into a PrC at level 1 in the first place), but the RAW is the RAW, for what that's worth.

[prufock]

At no point am I replacing HD with class level. My race is "MDM Gheden Human". This race doesn't have any RHD. I replace nothing, I simply lack them in the first place.
Hm, it seems it could work, then. Grabbing the bonus feats racially gets around the need to replace the HD.


Also, LA+4? I think you're confused. Gheden and MDM are both +1. So it's LA +2 (thus ECL 3 when starting).
You're right, I misread the MDM entry as requiring Celestial/Fiendish, which would be an additional +2.


Also, non-humanoids can replace their first RHD if they only have one. The relevant section may be under the 'humanoids and class levels', but the actual rule only specifies 'creatures with 1 or less HD'.
I'd dispute this general interpretation (though you don't need it for your build). The heading shouldn't be ignored; it's titled "Humanoids and Class Levels" for a reason.

[Troacctid]

Savage Species clarifies that characters with exactly one racial hit die may choose to either keep their hit die or replace it with their first class level—even if they're not humanoid.

Of course, that's 3.0 material, and if you stick to straight 3.5 material, the rules are unclear and contradictory. You also get weird stuff like getting 4x skill points for your first class level even though you already got 4x skill points off your first RHD, or ignoring the RHD when calculating XP so that you're effectively treated as one level lower than your actual ECL, etc. It's wonky.

Luckily, very few races have only a single racial hit die (generally it's either zero or 2+), and of the rare nonhumanoids that do, most, like the Pixie, have specific text allowing them to replace it with their first class level.

[ben-zayb]

How is this a challenge? Grab a humanoid with one RHD (or a half-giant, if you are uncomfortable with humanoids having RHD), have the dude be infected with Lycanthrope. Presto! LA+2/+3 creature with X RHD to toy with for meeting prereqs!

[Heliomance]

At no point am I replacing HD with class level. My race is "MDM Gheden Human". This race doesn't have any RHD. I replace nothing, I simply lack them in the first place.

Also, LA+4? I think you're confused. Gheden and MDM are both +1. So it's LA +2 (thus ECL 3 when starting).Also, the purpose of this thread wasn't early entry (despite the name), the challenge was to have a build with no base class levels. Even if it's delayed a bit, it still meets those qualifications.

Also, non-humanoids can replace their first RHD if they only have one. The relevant section may be under the 'humanoids and class levels', but the actual rule only specifies 'creatures with 1 or less HD'.

The elf can do it at ECL 2, by not needing Gheden. It does need access to wealth as a child though.

[Necroticplague]

The elf can do it at ECL 2, by not needing Gheden. It does need access to wealth as a child though.

That would require that you exist before the spells can be cast on you, though. At that point, you would have to have some form of HD or class level already. So it doesn't work.

[Heliomance]

That would require that you exist before the spells can be cast on you, though. At that point, you would have to have some form of HD or class level already. So it doesn't work.

But it clearly must, because all base classes have a certain age listed that you must be before you can start them. So what are you before you're old enough to have your first class level?

[prufock]

Savage Species clarifies that characters with exactly one racial hit die may choose to either keep their hit die or replace it with their first class level—even if they're not humanoid.
This I did not know; thanks for making it explicit, Troacctid. To my knowledge we normally accept 3.0 material unless it's been updated by a conversion document or errata.


The elf can do it at ECL 2, by not needing Gheden. It does need access to wealth as a child though.
I guess for a theoretical exercise it's fine to assume the wealth isn't an issue, but in a real game it strikes me as a first level character starting with +10 items.


But it clearly must, because all base classes have a certain age listed that you must be before you can start them. So what are you before you're old enough to have your first class level?
Commoner or RHD, I guess.

[Heliomance]

Commoner or RHD, I guess.
Any way you slice it, it's hard to argue that you don't have your racial bonus feats significantly before you take your first level.

[Inevitability]

If you can get three feats before taking your first level and pull a Potter in your backstory, you should qualify for Forsaker.

Also, Divine Minion + Aberration Blood + Aberration Wildshape + Assume Supernatural Ability (Eye rays) + Assume Supernatural Ability (Antimagic Cone) qualifies you for beholder mage.